One thing Edwards stated really got to me.

[Sean Reynolds]

Yes I did say I was going to take a break from DU, but as I watched Sharpton and Edwards dog pile on Dean I had to post something.

Out of the constant spew from Edwards he stated Dean had no right to address southern problems because HE was from the north. This saddens me because it truly shows how our nation is divided by borders. There shouldn’t be a southern issue, a western issue, or a northern issue. Under Edwards’ logic, he has no right addressing the unemployment rate, the poverty rate, and the horrors of rustbelt cities. He has no right addressing the drought issues that has continually plagued the western United States. He has no right addressing the fire issues that have wiped out millions of acres of western-American forests. The United States should be just that; a uniting of ALL states. The north, south, east, and west should unite to collectively lift the US from the problems of today.

Dean’s comments were not about racial driven hatred. They were about an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters. These feelings are driven by the right-wing of this country to further divide us from each other. To stop hatred, you must unite. You can not hope to bestow the nation with peace when you continually divide it. Edwards’ remarks do divide this nation into regions and that is wrong. For far too long the Republicans have played to the division of the south and it must end.

Shame on Edwards for making division an issue!

[Cha]

1. they are attacking the leader! they don't care if

it's true or not as long as they get to use their time for demagoguery it's all right by them.

[Cha]

2. And by the way, Sean, I'm glad you came "back" to

Post this. It really makes me feel better. I know that is completely self absorbed but I don't care!

[childslibrarian]

3. I'm sorry Dean did not do well tonight

And I was a semi-supporter (ie liked him better than 67% of the field).
He needs to drop the arrogance...He needs to apologize if he thinks he has offended people...

[w13rd0]

5. He seems to have offended...

...his opponents and their supporters. And he didn't offend anyone the many other times he's used the same stump speech. Who is he supposed to apologize to, and why? The best counter to this non-issue is Dean's comments in context. Sound bites, and slicing statements at the comma, is simple intellectual dishonesty and dirty politics as usual.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. He needs to apologize to all blacks and all Southerners, and

I think you know why.

But I think Dean's campaign died Tuesday when he spoke in Jacksonville, Florida, and said Southerners had to stop basing their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. It's not just in the South that people have strong feelings on all those topics (and on abortion, which he didn't mention.) Dean's telling people to ignore their deeply held beliefs -- and for what? Health insurance? His assurance that the war was wrong but now that we're there, we must stay there?

Uniting people is a great and noble goal and I'm going to try to believe the best of Dean, that he really has good intentions but is clueless about how to lead people who aren't like him. After his statement in Jacksonville and his bullheaded arrogance at the debate, I no longer think he has a chance of getting the nomination. I just hope he doesn't take the entire party down with him.

[billbuckhead]

7. "ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters " Mmmmmm

Dean said he still wanted to be the candidate of white male voters who drive pickup trucks with Confederate bumper stickers. He trivialized the divisiveness of the Confederate flag. He stereotyped white male pickup truck drivers as Confederate flag flyers. And once again black Democrats and their wishes are marginalized.

[Padraig18]

10. Black voters will appreciate your paternalism, I'm sure.

Talk about condescending! Here's an idea--- why not let *Blacks* themselves decide how they feel, without you telling them? :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

22. Just watching their back while an admitted.........

thief is in the room.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. You heard a black man tell you how he felt at the debate.

Howard didn't really hear the man, though, nor did he hear Al Sharpton or John Edwards. He just arrogantly insisted that he's right instead of trying to see if there was merit in what they said.

It's extremely patronizing to tell voters that they're fools for having voted GOP and that's the way Dean's rhetoric comes across. His comments about the flag, and yesterday's statement that Southerners have to stop basing their vote on race, guns, God, and gays, show Dean's lack of understanding of the importance of non-economic issues to many voters, not only Southern ones. He's like an Englishman telling Irish Catholics what they should do -- or a nonCatholic telling us Catholics what we should do. People tend not to follow those who insult them.

[mbali]

87. Not only didn't he hear him

he also didn't answer his question, "Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans?"

His response: "There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it. They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party."

So, in response to an African American man's request that he explain how he was going to address his needs, Dean just went on and on about how white people are really hurtin' and desperately need his help.

And he wonders why we think he doesn't get it?

[LuminousX]

17. You should be happy then, by your analysis, Dean is doomed

[w4rma]

20. John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

[Cha]

11. Dean doesn't "need" to "apologize" to anyone...

they have twisted his words and attacked him because he is leading the pack. Anyone who is paying attention can see what is being done.

I've heard comments from Clark supporters and African Americans who think it's hogwash what the attackers are doing.

edit~typo

[shance]

18. Apologize for trying to be inclusive?

Unfortunately it was other candidates egos that were trying to monopolize on a statement that was meant to bring everyone together.

No one should ever apologize for others trying to incinuate a situation that creates doubt, because of a weakness in their own convictions. There is an overzealous compulsion in many Americans to win at any cost. That is not the sign of a leader, but an opportunist.

Keep in mind I like all our candidates, I think we need them all to be speaking out, but this shows a weakness and a lack of good judgement, not to mention a divisive move that doesnt help any of us in the Democratic party.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters"

That'll win their votes, calling them ignorant...

[Padraig18]

8. And where is the ellipse for that snippet placed?

Before, after, or both? What was the entire statement? Another fine example of 'slice it and dice it' parsing. Why am I not surprised? :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. Calling people ignorant is not going to win their votes

What, do I always have to quote in it's entirety what I'm commenting on? Otherwise I'm hiding something? I'm not commenting on the other points made in the statement. I'm commenting on the fact that calling people ignorant is not going to win their votes. No matter what the rest of your message is.

[democratreformed]

55. Yeah

it certainly won me over! LOL

[seventhson]

6. I began to wonder who Sharpton was working for the way he attacked Dean

the problem is that Dean's original statement saying we need to convince confederate flag fliers not to vote for Bush because it is against their best interests and they need health insurance too...has been twisted by the others and now by Sharpton and Edwards to make it seem like he said something endorsing that symbol.

He did not.

But a lot of kids will fall for that lie.

Recent reports show most college students are Repugs and support Bush. This audience is made up of that community in Boston. The African American students are falling for the lies about Dean and that is sad...

But it is most distressing that Sharpton is again being an opportunist and playing up a very divisive issue with little real substance.

[MrPeepers]

12. Maybe... Just maybe...

people were actually offended? Sharpton seemed pretty genuinely mad to me.

Peepers

[Padraig18]

25. Sharpton is a fine one to be mad.

He wrote the book on race-baiting.

[billbuckhead]

13. Dean is using the Confederate flag like a marketing tool. Who's the opport

Dean is using the Confederate flag like a marketing tool. Who's really the opportunist?

[Padraig18]

16. Easy to answer that.

Your candidates are, like cheap wharf whores jumping on sailors with weekend shore leave.

[Cha]

24. LOL!

[Cha]

27. Again two words...

tawanna brawley

[childslibrarian]

9. Guys listen to this from a woman...

You apologize if you have accidentally embarassed or offended someone---it is good manners. Testosterone tactics are not going to win this...Women do have the vote, you know...

[Cha]

14. This is from a woman, too! And I repeat...

Dean does Not have to "apologize"! Dean's words were twisted by the other candidates and it is they who need to "Apologize"! But they won't! I just hope their demagagoguery bites them in their collective lying ass!

[childslibrarian]

15. I'm sorry

manners count. Clinton knew that...

[Cha]

21. Dean has the best manners as far as I'm concerned because

he doesn't lie!

[Desertrose]

37. Are you watching the same CNN I'm watching....

Dean doesn't lie??
Do you seriously believe this??

Simply put- he is a politician....

and how come if we have to come together to support Dean??

Dean did not come off too well tonite....but obviously we aren't going to agree on this either...

Peace
DR

[DinahMoeHum]

19. This was Howard Dean's "Sister Souljah" moment, IMO. . .

and I feel he handled it well. He's got little, if anything, to apologize about for the remark.

And if, by chance, he and Clark are on the ticket together, well, it's a moot point.

:kick:

[Bucky]

46. "on the ticket together"

Frankzappa wrote:
"And if, by chance, he and Clark are on the ticket together, well, it's a moot point."

There's no chance that Dean is gonna be anybody's VP now. If he can't win the top slot, he'll be damaged goods and he won't be offered the top consolation prize, either. If he wins the nomination, he'll need to reach... where?

If he picks a Southerner now, he'll be pegged as pandering to the South. If he picks a non-Southerner, he'll be "revealed" as an anti-Southern elitist.

I'm among the people who think his comment wasn't really all that bad, just unpresidential. But the flap resulting from this is going to ripple. This is Dean's introductory statement to the South. We value starting off on the right foot around here. The Doctor hasn't done that.

[Padraig18]

52. 'Ripple'

Sorry, but the whole flap is a big :yawn:, as far as the American people are concerned, I'd wager. Let's see what the polls say, whadya say?

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Yes, reminding blacks of their proper place.

Did he learn anything besides the words to "We Shall Overcome" from his black roommates at Yale?

[DinahMoeHum]

51. My, my. Nothing-But-The-Best-For-The-Oppressed disease

strikes again!

Please get off your perfectionist high horses, folks.

You want nothing but the best, but what if the best simply ain't available? You gonna sit back home and pout, and piss away another 4 years to the preppy phony squatter in the WH?

As an old adage goes: The perfect is the enemy of the good enough.

None of the Dem candidates are perfect. But if they can get people to the polls to vote for them and kick * out of office, even if they're not my first choice, I'll support them. AND FOR NOW, I'LL SETTLE FOR THAT.

:kick:

[LuminousX]

28. The Dems Debate and yet again, Dean is the talk of the nation

[Padraig18]

29. Their learning curve just isn't going up, is it?

LOL! :P

[Cha]

36. How does he do it?

:shrug:

[LuminousX]

38. He takes risks

[killbotfactory]

30. Is Edwards bigoted against Northerners?

Or just "people like you"?

I found it funny he chastized Dean for pretty much the same message he espoused later on when he talked about Zell.

[Padraig18]

31. Edwards is a cheap poseur. n/t

[goodhue]

33. Edwards rocks. n/t

[Cha]

35. Cheaply!

[DemDogs]

93. Rocks cheaply, rocks wildly, rocks, rocks, rocks!

[Duder]

32. Edwards doesn't speak for all of the South

Check out the Dixie Daily News...

http://www.southerncaucus.org/

[chimpymustgo]

34. Ahem. That's a site for those Confederate flag wavers.

nt

[MissMarple]

39. Hi , Sean! And you other guys should reread this thread in the AM.

Get a grip!!! Stop bashing Dems. Please.

[DrFunkenstein]

40. You Can Speak About The South But Don't Talk Down

Especially with dumbass stereotypes.

"We need to reach the drunk Irish immigrants without health insurance, the Mexican guys with big Sombreros and no job security."

[MissMarple]

41. Honey, will you please beam me up? I need a vacation.

:evilgrin:

[democratreformed]

53. and

the truly ignorant ones!!! (Truthfully, I didn't know that I was ignorant until this poster pointet it out)

[helleborient]

58. Yes, a fumble in wording...

For what I still think was an honorable point by Dean...

And then a "someone like you" comment from Edwards...He was angry, but that was an exceptionally rude threat in any environment.

And piling on of offensive and sometimes downright weird stereotypes thrown all different directions here on DU.

I do wish we were all in a room together and had to talk to each other face to face.

[Padraig18]

59. I agree.

I suspect most of us would like each other, and be a damn sight more civil about our differences. :)

[democratreformed]

63. You two guys

have been very civil and just downright nice - even in your disagreement. Thanks for that. I am certainly finished with it now. I hope everyone else will be also. The CF is just not that big an issue with me. The "poor white ignorant trailer trash" stereotype was, though, for a while.

Thanks for listening.

[helleborient]

64. Thank you!

The admiration is mutual! :-)

[Padraig18]

65. YW!

:hi:

[no name no slogan]

62. Heh! Great statement

I think you nailed it right there! Using dumbass stereo types does NOTHING to get you closer to the folks who need your support.

Jesse Ventura did the same thing when he was governor, commenting on the street layout of St. Paul. He said they were so screwed up, they were laid out by a "drunken Irishman". Not an overly huge deal, but he said this on Jay Leno.

Needless to say, a fair number folk of Irish descent didn't appreciate him reinforcing that stereotype.

Dean's whole comment reminds me of Ross Perot addressing the NAACP in 1992, when he referred to African-Americans as "you people". That pretty much blew any chance Perot had of any support in the black community.

Sure, Dean may not have meant any harm by his statement, but it did come off as paternal and very "we know what's best for you"-- which is NOT what the electorate wants to hear, especially from some "New England Liberal Elitist". Voters don't like to be talked down to. They want to be addressed as EQUALS.

I don't think Dean really meant to be cruel with his statements, and IMHO it's not as big a deal as the media has made it. But he seems to forget that words mean things, and that his supporters will treat his words different from his prospective supporters.

[killbotfactory]

82. Dean's been hanging around too many anti-American birkenstock wearing

liberal wussies.

[genius]

42. Edwards was right. Dean was extremely offensive and insensitve

Dean dug himself in deeper and deeper. The blacks will vote Republican before they'll vote for Dean.

[MissMarple]

43. Sometimes it's a good thing to just lighten up.

Unless you are on a mission from God. And that could be a bad thing,
depending on who your God is, of course.

So, "the blacks" all vote like...all together? I didn't think this was Pleasantville.

:D

You should check out post 44. She has some good thoughts.

[Andromeda]

44. I was surprised that Edwards

did that. I always thought he was above the fray, you know---the nice guy. He wanted to make Dean sound like a racist. Edwards wasn't the only one who ganged up on Dean.

I thought the whole thing was unfair to Dean because I thought he made some good points about poor Southern whites and Democrats really need to look at this.

Dean wasn't trying to divide---he was trying to be inclusive and Edwards, Kerry and Sharpton took some cheap shots at him.

They are trying so hard to be politically correct that they completely missed the point.

[AP]

45. Edwards needs high black turnout to win.

He'd be crazy not to call Dean on this issue, especially if it might cause black voters to stay home.

[Meshuga]

54. Nobody missed the point.

Nobody is trying to make Dean apologize for reaching out to poor white people in the south. They want the apology for what he said and his generalization about the poor white people in the south.

Sharpton even stressed that he knows Dean is not a racist. Dean defended himself as if people were trying to say he was a bigot or a racist and Dean is being arrogant for not apologizing for the generalization.

[Meshuga]

56. Dean generaziled...

and now people are spining it back so Edwards looks like a hypocrit? That's not very nice!

Edwards clearly meant (by saying "people like you") people like Dean who generalized poor white southerners as people who embrace the Confederate flag. Edwards didn't mean to say people from other parts of the country.

WTF! We all understand Dean is not a racist and that he meant well by saying that we need to reach to everybody (even poor whites from the south)! We get that!

But Dean doesn't get that he did something wrong which was to generalize poor white people from the south with his comment. Even if Dean didn't mean to generalize he should be noble and say "Sorry, I apologize if my remarks sounded like a generalization but I didn't mean it that way..." What's so hard about doing that? That's what Edwards and Sharpton were after last night.

Pride didn't let Dean do the right thing. Instead, Dean again had to act like he is being attacked. How frustrating!

Shame on Dean for being so arrogant and stubborn!

[Nazgul35]

61. actually....

Edwards made the remark that he was tired of these people coming down here and telling us how to run things.....the same language used by segregationists in the 50s, 60s and 70s.....

Now should I run around on every thread and demand that Edwards stop endorsing the segregationists?! His language was offensive to me as a northerner!!!! How dare he! Is he running for president of the Confederate States or the United States!!!???

See how it works! Anyone can play this game and the sole purpose of it is to encourage one group to support you at the expense of another...it is nothing more than race baiting and exclusionary....

Until we try to change the issues on which this country debates on, we will continue to lose....the repugs start chanting that this is class warfare.....AND I SAY FUCK YEAH IT IS

we should stop being afraid to take these bullies on and ram this nonsense right back down their throats....in order to get rid of racisim and solve the race issue for good in this country we must remove the underlying factors that create the environment for it to exist in the first place....if people are secure in their homes and thier futures, than fear will not be able to be exploited by the repugs.....this is our message...or it should be...

[mmonk]

57. ignorance that hampers the mind of typical southern voters?

That's what Edwards was talking about. Talking down to people as you just did. Still don't get it? Maybe they vote republican the same way a republican from another state does.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical Dean voters"

You said: "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters"

I said: "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical Dean voters"

BOTH OF THOSE COMMENTS ARE OFFENSIVE

EDWARDS: Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do.

(APPLAUSE)

That's the last thing in the world we need in the South.

I grew up in the South. I grew up with the very people that you're talking about. And what Al Sharpton just said is exactly right. The people that I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks.

One of the problems that we have with young people today is people talk down to you. You know, you get all pigeon-holed. They've stereotype you.

Exactly the same thing happens with people from the South. I have seen it. I have grown up with it. I'm here to tell you it is wrong. It is condescending. And the only way that we as a party are going to win the White House back is to reach out to everybody and treat them with the dignity and respect that they're entitled to.

That's what we ought to be doing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64721-2003Nov4?language=printer

"an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters"

"an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical Dean voters"

Do you 'get it' now?

[helleborient]

66. I get it...

And thank you very much for posting the fuller transcript.

I think the first comment from Edwards (the "someone like you") that is the one blasted all over the media is offensive to me...and I've posted elsewhere and flew off the handle about it, unfortunately.

But the rest is excellent.

I do think that both Dean and Edwards on this are attempting to make very important points.

Dean that we need to reach out.

Edwards that we need to avoid being condescending and off-putting.

There is no excuse for the "an ignorance that hampers the mind of the typical Southern voter." That is very offensive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. Wow peace between helleborient and feanorcurufinwe!

Who'd'a' thunk it?

Maybe I've been too cynical lately... this is good sign!

[helleborient]

74. An attempt at peace with everyone...

And being more like I am in the "real world."

[Sean Reynolds]

69. Wait, let me get this right....

You're telling me it is NOT ignorance at the base of why white southerners fly the Confederate flag? IMO, it is. Oh, and I'd appreciate it next time you quote me to quote the WHOLE DAMN thing and not just a snip.

Edwards' point is VERY well taken, he does not want some northerner telling the south about their problems. Well if that truly is the case, maybe Edwards should run for something else besides for the presidency of the UNITED STATES. Because I can tell you when you're president you will be facing problems from ALL regions and it should not matter what area of the country you come from. This is Edwards playing petty regional politics and IT IS SAD.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

70. You called southerners ignorant.

Whatever else you said, doesn't excuse it.

I guess this means, you still don't 'get it'. :eyes:

[Sean Reynolds]

71. Read the whole damn quote.

You really LOVE quoting people out of context, don't ya!

MY QUOTE:

Dean’s comments were not about racial driven hatred. They were about an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters. These feelings are driven by the right-wing of this country to further divide us from each other.

Meaning, PEOPLE who fly the Confederate flag are doing it our of pure ignorance. An ignorance pushed upon them by the right-wing. If you don't agree, FINE, but NEVER quote me out of context. Ok?

[helleborient]

72. My concern about what you said...

Was another sweeping generalization.

Just this morning here in DU a reasonably frequent poster to DU explained why they had the Confederate flag displayed in their home. Ignorance and racism had nothing to do with it.

I would believe that there are many Southern voters that are ignorant of many things...we certainly have people like that all over the whole country...it's not a unique thing to the south. I believe it is a stretch to call the typical voter ignorant...whether in the South or elsewhere. Many of the ignorant people stay home.

I'm not sure the flag itself is in some kind of causal role interfering with their minds. I think the Republican party has sold many Southerners (possibly even a majority now) a bill of goods that the Confederate flag, fundamentalist religion, guns and opposition to gays is somehow more important than jobs, health, and education.

However, I'm not going to pin cultural concerns and political concerns on individual ignorance. It's much more complex than that.

I think Dean was talking about reaching out to these voters. He wasn't talking about supporting the Confederate flag. And he wasn't calling them ignorant. He didn't use the best wording, but his goal, to me, is an excellent one.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. I read it. Extra context doesn't change what you said.

No amount of context changes the fact that you called southerners ignorant.

And I'll quote you however I want.

I'll do what I want, you do what you want, and as long as we follow the rules, that's OK.

OK? :eyes:

[Sean Reynolds]

76. I didn't call ALL southerners ignorant.

I called those that fly the Confederate flag ignorant.

You said:

I'll do you long that's OK.

HOW dare you even STATE you'd do me. That is RAPE and I don't have to take it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. You called "typical southern voters" ignorant.

Calling people ignorant is no way to win their votes.

[Sean Reynolds]

79. That FLY the Confederate flag.

And yes they are ignorant.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

80. That's not what you said. Read the whole * quote.

lol

[Sean Reynolds]

83. I thought people here DU would be smart enough to get it...

Without my implying that I was talking about the Confederate flag. Why? Because Dean's statement wasn't about ALL southern whites, but about those who have the flag pinned up in their damn pickup truck window. So I thought it was understood my coment was based off that and thus only targeted toward that base.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

84. Yeah, I'm smart enough to get it.

Much like Dean, you made an insensitive comment, and you are unwilling to admit it.

'Get it'?

[Sean Reynolds]

85. Nope.

insensitive would be if I said the whole south were ignorant, I didn't. You just like to read into things. Which is ok I guess, your own problem, not mine.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

86. "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters"

Nope - that's not insensitive.

In the same way that this is not satire.

[Sean Reynolds]

88. You say: I am insensitive

Yes you are!

See I can take words out of context too!


Nope - that's not insensitive.

In the same way that this is not satire.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

89. "an ignorance that hampers the minds of typical southern voters."

[Kolesar]

67. Welcome Back, Sean

I saw your other post about getting away from DU & was rather disappointed. I had wanted to start a thread on Utah and the Democrats, and I wanted your input.

btw, Salt Creek in Canyonlands NP was a boffo backpack trip!

[kang]

73. On Edwards' comments and on Dean's insensitivity

Edwards did take it too far w/his Southerners don't like being told what to do schtick...considering slavery and desegregation probably would've have happened as soon as it did without some "Northern" intervention. But I think that's not a point that's likely or useful to bring up. Edwards smelled blood and he seized the moment like a seasoned trial lawyer. He's trying to win South Carolina badly so it makes sense that he jumped in and took the lead on this one.

I said something about Dean being right in his argument, wrong in using "confederate flag" comment, and how should've apologized right away on another topic. But just speaking for myself...here's what I wrote to TNR recently in response to their article on Dean's comments. By the way, I was legitimately angered by his reaction when I wrote this.

Dear TNR,
I'm a subscriber to your magazine so I will just make this blunt: Are any of the people who commented about Howard Dean's "confederate flag" comment NOT white? I'm a minority and I think your magazine would have had a very different view on this if it were Swastikas we were talking about. And if you're thinking to yourself that the two symbols aren't even close, then it sadly shows an even bigger disconnect with minority concerns and values.

Howard Dean could've said that he wants to reach out to this group of voters in order to bring them in and make them realize the error of their ways. However unlikely and unperfect an answer this would have been, it would've been acceptable to most. OR he could've just said that he was sorry for offending people. Instead, he gave NO apology and failed to understand that it wasn't the underlying message that people disagreed with, but the way he expressed it.

His lack of concern or regret for this highlights his arrogance (as Rev. Sharpton pointed out) and gives support to concerns about him energizing minority voters. Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. is only one man, for Dean to think that this serves as a replacement for actually having African-American supporters of his own is just sad. No wonder he doesn't get minority support, he doesn't "get" us. You should have given him an "F."

[helleborient]

77. Does today's apology help at all?

And, I'm curious, is there a way for Democrats to reach out to Southerners who might be racist without offending African-Americans?

[mbali]

81. Interesting question

I need to think more about it, but on first blush, I can't think of any way to do both.

This would be tantamount to asking if there's a way for a party to reach out to Nazis or skinheads without offending the Jews already in the party. I don't know if that's possible or even desirable.

It seems to me that the way to increased Democratic support is to work harder to shore up the base that is already in the party but doesn't vote for various reasons (one of which is the feeling that they are being taken for granted as evidenced by the latest flap). Doing this would result in exponentially more votes than chasing around after the racist element will.

That's my first impression. But I'll think on it and let you know if I change my mind.

[kang]

90. Of course you can reach out to poor rural whites

without offending African-Americans. I just think you need to bring to their attention who they have more in common with: wealthy whites or poor minorities. Stressing the economic situations and the kind of services/gov't attention they get is how you get people to look beyond race. That's why it was really beyond me why he mentioned the confederate flag at all. One only has to look at the union movement over the last century to point out to people how the "MAN" used race to divide and conquer working Americans. No problems w/offending anybody there.

The apology will help him get back on message, but how difficult it was for him to do it tells me more about his built-in stubborness than it does about his racial sensitivity. I'd say he's going to be a hell of alot more sensitive from now on.

For Dean people, one tip for your guy: Could he not mention MLK Jr. every time he speaks about race? It sounds like he's trying too hard and it's always a bit embarrassing when a white man is reminding a black crowd what MLK Jr. said. He could mix it up a bit w/some other prominent civil rights leaders or just come up w/his own stuff. Just something I noticed when he was speaking on TV.

[helleborient]

91. Yes, I agree...

I thought when I saw him speak he was much more effective at speaking to concerns of some African-Americans when he expressed strong support for affirmative action at the University of Michigan.

I don't think he's yet completely comfortable talking about race, but I think it's obvious he's very concerned about it.

If you watch him over time he has learned a lot about effective campaigning and presentation, and I think he will learn much more.

All of the campaigns have honed and adjusted the way they present their messages. It happens in every campaign. If it doesn't, it's usually a sure path to loss.

I thought Al Gore's raging passion at the end of his campaign was fantastic, but unfortunately he didn't get there earlier. It did allow him to turn the corner on winning the popular vote.

Bill Clinton masterfully adjusted and tweaked his campaign when things weren't working or didn't go over particularly well. The bus trip after the convention was brilliant and innovative. I think Hillary's "I'm not some Tammy Wynette..." on 60 Minutes is almost painful to watch when we see who she is today. The point was well taken but she looks defensive and seriously lacking in professional polish.

Howard Dean's campaign will evolve...if he becomes the presumptive candidate, he will be the recipient of even more good ideas from all corners of our party. Whomever the presumptive candidate is will benefit from this.

[mbali]

92. I agree . . .

"I don't think he's yet completely comfortable talking about race, but I think it's obvious he's very concerned about it."

I think he means well, is very concerned and wants to make a difference in this regard. But his lack of comfort demonstrates how far down on the learning curve he is. There's nothing wrong with that - we're all learning and I commend anyone for struggling with these tough issues.

The problem is that Dean doesn't seem to realize how little he knows about this issue. Instead, he struts and postures and lectures and points fingers at the other candidates, claiming that HE is the only one dealing effectively with this issue. That is offensive and it is wrong. Moreover, it leaves him open to the kind of piling on we've seen this week when he so egregiously missteps.

Perhaps he learned something from the debacle he created and will be more careful in the future. The least he should have figured out is that he DOESN'T have all the answers and he is in no position to lecture others about race.