The Targeted Wing of the Democratic Party

[LuminousX]

The Targeted Wing of the Democratic Party

While Dean publicly wears the target on his back as a sign of his front-runner status, it seems increasingly apparent that there is more to it than that. Dean is the definition of a love-him-or-hate-him guy. He has inspired in the last year far more passion than any Democrat -- running for office or not. But he has also inspired more detractors than any Democrat.
...
It's not unusual for the leading candidate in any election to draw the most fire, but Dean is hardly a consensus front-runner. In fact, national polls still suggest at least five candidates -- Dean, Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (Conn.), retired Army general Wesley K. Clark and Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.) have a shot at the nomination. Sen. John Edwards (N.C.) is running well in the key state of South Carolina (although according to one recent poll in the state he's fallen behind Clark) and has the skills, money and infrastructure to be competitive elsewhere.

A new Washington Post/ABC News poll is also instructive. That poll individually pits five candidates -- Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt, Clark and Dean -- in a hypothetical general election match-up with President Bush. Kerry does the best, down only 6 points to Bush, while Dean does the worst, down 15 points.
...
If Dean wins the nomination, it will be interesting to see the party try to rally around him. Should he win it, the party may have to live with the fact that Democrats have already done much of Bush's heavy lifting for him. In other words, there may be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy at work: The attacks on Dean for being too far left or too far right to beat Bush may turn Democratic voters off to Dean and make unelectable someone who might otherwise be a viable candidate.
===

This clearly states my fear with supporting Dean. The hate here is palpable. Is the hate as bad in the real world? I don't think so, but if it is being reported how Dean either excites people or turns them off, then the hate must extend to the real world as well.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sfecap]

2. So who is your candidate?

n/t

[LuminousX]

5. I don't have one

People here convinced me not to vote for Dean, but they haven't convinced me anyone else is worth my vote. So I probably won't vote in the primaries and just back whoever gets the nod after the convention.

[blm]

16. Yeah...nothing in any of those environmental policies,

progressive internationalism policies, and renewable energy that links to national security policies worth voting for.

[dpbrown]

20. Please vote in the primaries

It's especially important that people who are conscientious enough to actually struggle over whom to support get out and vote or participate in the caucuses, whatever you have in your state.

Please participate. It's important.

[LuminousX]

3. I don't get that

I see more Dean supporters talking about their willingness to back other candidates. A handful here have arrogance, but not out in the real world. In the real world, Kerry supporters and Dean supporters along with Kucinich supporters and assholes like myself all get together and chat with no problems, with none of them 'turning off' the other.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. It's Like Sports Fans - You Don't Argue in The Real World Over Football

But I know for a fact that Dean supporters trash Kerry in private. Well, not really, but its a pretty good guess.

[dpbrown]

21. Things may have changed recently

But I've been attacked pretty fiercely for advocating for my candidate.

And I think there's an air of confidently believing that they never will have to support another candidate that gives the supporters of the "frontrunner" motivation to display their largesse to the poor, misguided supporters of the "others."

It's a lot easier to say you'll support whomever gets the nod when you're sure it'll be your guy or gal.

[Meshuga]

34. It's easier to be unfriendly and snap...

in a message board. In real life I think the arguments would be much more productive. We all need to get along pretty soon anyway since we are all going to be backing the same candidate in the near future.

[w4rma]

9. Dean & Sharpton hand in hand after the debates

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

Howard Dean campaigns in Tallahassee

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Dean And Sharpton On Springer

<>

[blm]

4. Sorry to be redundant, but, Dean set the tone last January.

No crying now.

There are plenty of congresspeople who are worried because internal polls show that Dean at the top of the ticket drags them down. He's fine for those in safe seats, but, many of the others are in competitive districts. 2 or 3 % points matter.

[LuminousX]

6. Who cares?

Welcome to campaigning. If Dean didn't go negative first, someone else would have. Get over it.

[blm]

7. Tell that to all those whining about how Dean is being treated.

They sure didn't mind dishing it out.

[LuminousX]

8. Of course not

Again, I am puzzled. People had the right to cry "Foul" when Dean was doing it and Dean people have the right to cry "Foul" now.

And, if it was wrong for Dean to do it, then it is wrong for others to do it. If it is suddenly not wrong for others to do it, then it is subjective morality and is entirely pointless.

Is this even a worthy campaign issue?

[MissMarple]

10. Many of these arguments are specious. We shouldn't eat our own.

Now, that would be cannibalism, wouldn't it. Hmm...?

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Um...It's Called Hypocrisy

n/t

[MissMarple]

14. Now I really am laughing out loud.

It's been a bad day. Voting in El Paso County, Colorado is a very depressing thing.

Thanks for the levity. :D

[LuminousX]

15. Exactly, Hypocrisy on both sides of the issue

If I say it is wrong to do X when you do it, then it is wrong to do X when I do it.

If I have the right to call foul when X is done, you have the right to call foul when X is done.

And we can debate X until the cows come home but X, in this case, isn't a worthy campaign issue. It is a petty distraction from the main event.

[helleborient]

22. Yep...it's sad (n/t)

Bullies in the school yard twist your arm behind your back saying you have to apologize...say Uncle, whatever...and usually when they let you go you run to your friends and family and say I only said it under duress.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. Unless You Are Ralphie And You Kick The Guy's Ass

I guess the holiday season is drawing closer. God Bless A Christmas Story.

[indigo32]

33. Best Movie Ever

LOL

[helleborient]

35. It is wonderful...

Thanks for the reminder!

[blm]

17. But, when Dean did it those same people applauded

and apparently they believe that someone who was attacked should not be allowed to reciprocate.

They call it an attack when Kerry merely contrasted Dean's gun position with his. When Dean attacked, he called his opponents names, "Bushlite" and has accused them of having no backbones. Those are character attacks.

[LuminousX]

18. But aren't you applauding the attacks against Dean now?

I don't understand, I honestly don't.

Dean attacks Kerry. Some Kerry supporters cry foul, some Dean supporters applaud.

Kerry attacks Dean. Some Dean supporters cry foul, some Kerry supporters applaud.

The behavior is the same and I still don't see how it is a campaign issue.

[blm]

26. I don't applaud the attacks on Dean if you bothered to notice.

I have only said that I understand why they are reciprocating.

I have also pointed out that CONTRASTING positions and policies is NOT attacking, where namecalling and demeaning another's character IS attacking. You know, like "Bushlite" and "no backbone".

[dpbrown]

23. It's okay to distinguish your candidate from other candidates

The important distinctions in policy and ideas and vision are worthy campaign issues.

[LuminousX]

24. I agree, distinctions in policies and ideas

but that isn't what is being discussed here. What was said is it is Dean's fault that the party may not be able to rally against him for his rancorous behavior, yet currently, the others are engaging in rancorous behavior.

And 'going negative' isn't a bad thing. Gore 'went negative' against Bradley first. As a Bradley supporter, that pissed me off, but I got over it because that is the nature of campaigns. It isn't a reason to vote or not vote. Sure, I'd rather vote for the nice guy, but as this campaign progresses, the only 'nice guy' is Kucinich and there isn't anyway I'm going to vote for someone I don't agree with on Iraq and NAFTA.

[dpbrown]

32. Me, too

There is no possible way I'm going to vote for someone I don't agree with on the Death Penalty, Universal Single-payer, and Iraq on.

[polpilot]

25. Nobody's crying except supporters of 'anybody but Dean'. The attacks

accentuate the differences between Dean and 'the old time politicos' and Dean's #'s climb!!!! What's the next attack issue??

Dean's 'attacks' have been successful because they consist of only truth telling. Dean's opponent's attacks consistently blow up in their faces. Wonder why??????????

Dean '04...Rebel with a Cause?????????

[blm]

27. Name an attack by Dean on the others that was only "truth telling"

If you can, try naming them all.

[polpilot]

28. Dean has never attacked the others. They 'feel' attacked when he holds

up the mirror to them or asks 'did you vote for this?? Then they hyperventilate.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[blm]

29. No example of Dean "truthtelling" not an attack?

Please, take your time, share it with the whole class.

[polpilot]

39. None. Truth is so foreign that it 'seems' attacks.

Dean '04...Rebel with a
Cause

[DrFunkenstein]

31. "Oh Well, I Tend To Believe The President"

You can't afford to be misled if you are running for President.

Sound familiar? One of the nastiest, most cynical - and most hypocritical - moves in this entire race. Which is saying something when you consider Dean told outright lies about Edwards and Clark, and refuses to alter his commercial after Kucinich called him out.

[polpilot]

38. Gettin' closer to 'med' time.

Dean '04...

[mitchum]

36. Are you parodying Dean supporters?

I'm not attacking or being facetious. I'm just really curious.

[polpilot]

40. Not at all.

Dean '04...

[helleborient]

19. Why don't these stories ever mention...

That Howard Dean has the lowest negative ratings in New Hampshire?

I'm just curious...

[eissa]

37. The best sentence in this article:

"Should he win it, the party may have to live with the fact that Democrats have already done much of Bush's heavy lifting for him."

Think about that! :kick:

[blm]

41. Do you remember 2000?

Do you remember when Nader said there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between Bush and Gore?

Do you know that Dean calls the other candidates' Bushlite?

What's the difference between the two charges from Dean and Nader?

Should Kerry or Gephardt get the nomination, will that comment by Dean and those who parrot Dean be harmful in the general election?

[bread_and_roses]

42. Someone tell me again

why Dean couldn't have just said he wanted to be the candidate for "the guys in pick-up trucks?"

[LuminousX]

43. Because, with the 'confederate flag' tag used in his stump speech

he falls back to a phrase, or variation of it he has been using since February.

The question may have been NRA, but the issue is Dean's southern strategy. Guns, God, race, and gays.

[helleborient]

44. With the virulent opposition here to religion...

Strong anti-gun stances by many here, concern about race relations, and concern about homophobia...I would think that strategy would resonate.