Another great election night for Democrats here in the South

[unfrigginreal]

Just getting our asses handed to us on a platter as has become the norm over the past 10 years. Nothing to be too upset about though, the entrenched Democratic Presidential candidates have a plan. Yep, they sure do, they want to keep things just like they are.
Paint the one candidate that's suggesting an alternative approach to the South as anti-black and they've achieved their goal. Dean probably still wins the nomination, has trouble firing up the black vote and loses to Bush.

And those entrenched assholes will still be sitting in Congress, still voting with the Repubs, and we'll still be losing elections in the South. What a screwed up night this has been.

[sandnsea]

1. This is so irrational

How can you not see it?

First you say we've got to appeal to Repubs in order to get Southern votes, then turn around and complain about Congress voting with Repubs.

This is what is screwed up. We will never get the Southern vote by saying we support all current gun laws and adding a little 'but that's the limit'. We will never get the Southern vote by saying we support Affirmative Action, but don't worry about race and vote for health care.

We CAN get the Southern vote by not running from our values and not being afraid to tell the truth about those values. We CAN get the Southern vote by confronting the problems in the south head on and exposing them to their own failing schools, high murder and violent crime rates, engrained racism that is still hurting people, entrenched poverty, bad tax policy, two-tier health care that makes it more expensive for everybody, and everything else that's going on. That's how you win the South, by telling the truth. Not abdicating Democratic values. And certainly not by pandering, they will smell that ten miles away. The same is true for all rural areas, I don't think they're all that different.

[unfrigginreal]

2. Really?

We CAN get the Southern vote by not running from our values and not being afraid to tell the truth about those values. We CAN get the Southern vote by confronting the problems in the south head on and exposing them to their own failing schools, high murder and violent crime rates, engrained racism that is still hurting people, entrenched poverty, bad tax policy, two-tier health care that makes it more expensive for everybody, and everything else that's going on. That's how you win the South, by telling the truth. Not abdicating Democratic values. And certainly not by pandering, they will smell that ten miles away. The same is true for all rural areas, I don't think they're all that different.

How's that been working out for you? Have you been getting the results you claim are achievable? Let me know when it's fixed because I'm not pushing YOUR Democratic values anymore. I'm just sick of it and I really don't mean that disrespectfully to you. I've towed the line long enough just to see real debate stifled within the Party and our Politicians ignoring our concerns. Playing to special interests is pretty much the only thing that the Democratic Party does anymore and it ain't working.

I don't know what the answers are, but I do know that we need to try something different, and I'll be supporting candidates that offer that in the future.

[KuroKensaki]

4. So in other words...

This whole 'sticking to our ideals and not being hypocrites' thing isn't working out for us, therefore we have to beat them at their own game--playing dirty? That's not a party I want to be part of.

No.. The problem is education. People don't know what we stand for. They've heard Republicans accusing us of being poll-chasing lying hypocrites who do nothing good for the country, when exactly the opposite is true. The problem is we don't call them on it.

We need to start standing up for our values -more-, not less. We need to be -more- vocal. And if that means going to the South and saying 'we're for gun control and against the values of the Confederacy', so be it. Do you honestly think that by pandering to these people, we'll get their vote? They'd still vote Republican, no matter how much we coddle them.

[KuroKensaki]

6. PS

Oh, and you might just find that more people in the South believe in responsible gun control laws than don't.

Don't yell at me and say I don't know anything, I'm a Southerner. Of course, I live in Florida, we are pretty yankee, but still.

[DemBones DemBones]

9. No offense, but I'm a native Floridian and Florida is not the South.

I've also lived in Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, and Virginia (just to name the Southern states) so I know wherof I speak. Only parts of Florida and Virginia are Southern.

Most Southerners aren't fools so most do believe in responsible gun ownership. Supporting gun control is another matter. Gun owners know that gun registration has always been done before guns were banned and confiscated (Germany, England, Australia) so they look at registration as a prequel to confiscation. And some "gun control" advocates do want eventual banning. Dems lose a lot of votes over this issue.

[KuroKensaki]

13. We agree?

We seem to agree on more points than we disagree? I did note that Florida is a very yankee state despite its geographic location. In fact, I live near Tampa, so I'm in about as northern a southern location as you can get.

People don't oppose vehicle registration, if they give it some thought. They might complain, say it's a hassle, but they realize the good outweighs the bad. Gun registration is much the same. As is a waiting period on handguns--a hassle that's worth the result. I think most people, even Southerners, support banning assault weapons.

Like you noted, I'm not exactly an expert. I just don't think that we're being honest -or- winning any votes by shying away from our positions.

[unfrigginreal]

10. When did standing up for poor blue collar workers...

cease to be a value in the Democratic Party? Why, over the past decade have we been hearing so much about the GOP being the party of the angry white male. Our side put it out so what was the message there?

[sandnsea]

23. These aren't special interests

Please explain how they are. That's the RW line and they've done a great job of twisting civil rights into special rights. If you're not for the things I talked about, then you probably do need to find a different party. There's one ready for you if winning elections in the south is all that matters to you.

[Hieronymus]

3. Well said,

unfrigginreal.
Dean has the right idea and is being crucified.
:wtf: :nuke:

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Right idea but wrong approach. People are not inspired to

follow someone who tells them they've been doing everything wrong. It's as if he's saying he's the Great White Yankee Doctor come to save Southerners from their ignorant habit of voting for what they believe in.

[unfrigginreal]

12. Dean's message wasn't that the Southerners had the wrong approach...

it was that the Politicians have had the wrong approach.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Howard was in Jacksonville on election day, telling

Southerners they need to stop voting based on race, guns, God, and gays. That's an "alternative approach to the South," alright, but is it effective in the South -- or anywhere? I'm sure he had dedicated Deaniacs at his speech but what about the rest of the people in Jacksonville, a GOP stronghold?

It's my view that Sharpton and Edwards were not only scoring political points for themselves but were also telling Dean how to save his political ass. Too bad that Mr. I-Am-Always-Right couldn't hear what they were saying. One of the facts of life is that sometimes, you need to apologize even if you're sure you're right. I don't think Dean can get the nomination now and I'm worried that he's spoiled things for the Dems.

[KuroKensaki]

8. Alternative?

I'm still confused as to what this 'alternative approach to the South' entails. The man comes from Vermont. He's pretty yankee. He's a Democrat. Yankee Democrats don't usually fare well in conservative states (like, say, the South).

So is this 'alternative approach' to pretend he's a flat-out conservative?

It's like winning class president by promising pizza every day at lunch. It's dishonest and it hurts more than it helps, in the long run.

[KuroKensaki]

11. Oh and by the way..

I should reply to your original post shouldn't I?

Just getting our asses handed to us on a platter as has become the norm over the past 10 years. We won in 2000. Don't ever forget that. All fraud and illegality aside, we won the popular vote and lost Florida by 537 people. That's not what I'd call being handed our asses. Oh and for the record, '10 years ago' refers to 1993. We'd just elected a President, who we were going to get reelected in 1996. We lost Congress, sure, but again. Not getting our asses handed to us.

Nothing to be too upset about though, the entrenched Democratic Presidential candidates have a plan. Yep, they sure do, they want to keep things just like they are. WHAT? Have you been listening to them? Almost all the candidates want free health care. As far as I know, the only one who doesn't is Clark--he wants mandatory health care that's free for people who can't afford it and very cheap for people who can. Everyone, everyone, has been criticizing the 'way things are'. Everyone has been very vocal about their beliefs, not cowed like Congress was a while back. That may just be because of the coming election, but their plan certainly is not stagnation. For the love of god, Kucinich wants a Cabinet-level Department of Peace. Think of it. Secretary of Peace instead of our Secretary of War I mean Defense Rumsfeld.

Paint the one candidate that's suggesting an alternative approach to the South as anti-black and they've achieved their goal. Dean painted that wonderful picture himself. He praised people who fly the Confederate flag. To borrow from Robin Williams.. " 'The Confederate Flag is a symbol of state's rights!' 'Oh, yes, Mr. Helms, and the Swastika is just a Polish good luck charm.' " The Confederate flag may very well be a symbol of state's rights and antifederalism, but it's also been stained with divisiveness because it was used as a symbol also of oppression and racism. If I see someone wearing a swastika, even if they mean it in the most innocent of contexts, it's still in utterly bad taste, and is an insult to Jews worldwide. In the same way, praising the Confederate flag, or god forbid flying it, is spitting in the eye of every black person in America.

Dean probably still wins the nomination, has trouble firing up the black vote and loses to Bush. Again. There's only one person at fault for that, and his initials are H.D.

And those entrenched assholes will still be sitting in Congress, still voting with the Repubs, and we'll still be losing elections in the South. What a screwed up night this has been. Here I agree. Congress needs to stand up for our ideals. The same ideals you later in this thread denounced...

[izzie]

14. Of 100 voters , once more of 100 voters.

53 went for GOp and 47 for Dem. What percent of the people who could vote voted and they do say the GOP usually vote. Dem must get the other 3 or 4 out to vote.I bet this vote was not up over 60 percent., of voters.

[RuB]

15. Why would it offend blacks that Dean is trying to get the votes of

poor stupid white people? I'm white so I can say that can't I?

[msanger]

16. love the sinner, hate the sin

Should be Dean's response to the confederate flag flap. He is after the votes of people who may love the confederte flag. He wants to make their lives better, and refers to them as people with confederate flag decals on their pick-ups.

He isn't supporting the confederate flag or what it stands for. He loves the people who fly that flag, not the flag itself.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Love the confederates, hate the confederate flag.

Seems simple

[RuB]

17. You'd think is was simple

The Democratic party is so diverse you can't help but offend someone sometime. The only question is are the Democrats reasonable and willing to overlook the offence to get Bushie out of the White House. Lets hope so.

[Lexingtonian]

18. I dunno

but if I understand the "alternative approach" you're referring to, it's been tried. It was called 'the election campaign of 2002' the last time they tried it. And if you think toughness and directly fighting Bush won it for Landrieu (on the second go-around against a Nobody), let's admit that an increase in black voters took her from the first round 47% to 53% there.

I hate to sound cruel, but the story in the South seems to me to be that almost all of the remaining Old Democrats in the top echelons have to defect or walk off the political stage before things improve in the region. Until they're gone the Republicans have a winning argument with white Southern voters about being the better of two undesirable sides. It isn't fair, it's ugly, it's hard to stomach, and it doesn't seem to me to have as much to do with particular political stances as people think. It has to do with the last Zell Millers and Roy Barneses and Bob Nelsons and John Breauxes going into retirement and Democrats coming to stand for the New South.

Those "entrenched assholes" may be raining on your idol's parade. But if you didn't get the memo, Chandler ran on very much a Deanite platform/method in Kentucky. Seeing how he got just about exactly the same voters as Gore got, lost too, and has Patton to point to as much of the reason, perhaps those "entrenched assholes" have a point in expecting little new from these races just yet. Maybe they're vindicated, even, in de facto proposing that the time for doing things in an 'alternative' way has not yet arrived.

I went through your annoyance too when I found out the national party wasn't putting in a hurry to put much of an effort into Florida in the spring of '02. It seemed horrifying to me at the time. But as I got a picture of what the state party was actually like I realized the DNC really saw throwing money into it as counterproductive and cherrypicking promising individual campaigns as the alternative.

Ok, that's enough harshing on the topic. But maybe you can agree that there is a need for generational change in the Democratic Party throughout the South- already partly achieved- as has been achieved to a somewhat larger extent in most other regions. I don't blame you for hoping that some other means will work. But it's hard to see how much of anything else can, or will.

[Padraig18]

19. The question we need to ask: "So, how's that workin' for you?"

Having read the results and analyses of yesterday's MS and KY elections, the obvious question is "So (fill in Candidate X's name), how's the old 'tried and true' Democratic 'Southern strategy' working?" In short, it isn't.

We have one candidate who's been brave enough to suggest that we do some long-needed rethinking about the South, one who may have used some less-than-perfect wordcraft to reach out to a large group of people long alienated from us--- people who have the same problems we seek to solve, like health care, education, loss of manufacturing jobs, etc.--- people our opponents cynically exploit, and we trash that man. They distort his words, take them out of context, play the 'race card, do whatever they think may result in personal, short-term political gain, and continue the same, brilliant strategy that makes the South one huge, ugly smear of red across the electoral map.

So, how's that workin for ya? :eyes:

[Tom Rinaldo]

20. Democratic Patriotism

Another plug for Clark, I admit it. Ever since our boy Mike got laughed at in the tank running against Bush the elder, it has been difficult for Democrats with progressive politics to be perceived as patriotic. We so often come off as being upset with our own government, and isn't that unpatriotic? (of course not, but Republicans do well at spinning it that way). Clinton was a brilliant politicain, and he got to run on "It's the economy, stupid" so he managed to elude that bullet. But the Republican sniping at him on that score never let up.

We have a really rare opportunity with General Clark. He is progressive, but he can also throw the patriotism card in the Republican's face. Kerry can somewhat nuetralize the hits against him due to his Viet Nam status, but Clark takes it on the offensive with his "New American Patriotism". The Democrats are lucky that central casting found someone like him to step into that key role in a post 9/11 world. Clark is not afraid to frame dissent as patriotic, he is absolutely brilliant on that point. He can carry our values into the South, and keep it competitive

[Padraig18]

21. Mmmmm hmmm

That, plus the class he has shown over the CF issue, has made him my #2 choice.

[Lexingtonian]

22. Wow

You've gone from the merest smidgeon of a suggestion of a plan to it working out in one friggin' hugh leap of logic. I suggest an Olympic gold medal for your effort.

But how about some explaining of how it's actually going to work, the theory and the plausible Southern voter response in practice, to those of us who aren't True Believers just yet?

And no, this is not a trick question.

[helleborient]

24. I'm curious...

What is the alternative approach to Southern voters from candidates other than Howard Dean?

It was claimed above that we won the South in 2000 because we won the vote in Florida...but Al Gore lost his home state in the South? Does that really count as "winning the South?" He came nowhere close to Bill Clinton's success in the South.

I really would like to hear alternative approaches to Dean's and the reason why the candidates think they will work.

I've read plenty of negativity...I'm ready to hear the positive approaches.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. Southern approaches

FWIW, I don't think Dean was wrong about wanting to bring back southern white Democrats to the party who are being hurt by Republican economic policies, and I don't hink anyone disagrees with that. Some may differ about how much resources to allocate to that effort etc. but not about the concept. But to accomplish that or any goal, you need the right person for the job, or at the very least someone who isn't distracting from the message trying to be delivered by the way in which s/he delivers it. It is not an original idea but it certainly isn't a wrong one. To Dean's credit he has been spunky on the theme of competing in the South. Nonetheless in my opinion, and it seems I am in no way alone, he was very clumbsy in the delivery of that message, to the point where he risked bringiing about the opposite result, along with alienating some black voters at the same time. Whatever you might think of the politics of Edwards and Sharpton attacking Dean last night around it, I believe they were both right about the way in which some potential voters might be offended by Dean heading South with that message and those words. It is important for the Dean campaign to take in that critism and learn from it. It showed a tin ear on Dean's part to get in that controversy in the first place.

There were many other metaphors he could have used to describe his desire to reach out to diseffected southern white voters who should share common ground with his economic priorities. The fact that he got away with the flag reference earlier in the year to political insiders when the campaign had not really gained traction does not excuse the poor judgement of using that statement in an interview now with the campaign to a South Carolina newspaper, of all states, given that there is an ongoing controversy and boycott over the CF flying over the SC capital. It was an unnecessary self inflicted wound. Northerners can often be condescending towards southerners, and whites can be insensitive to the powerful hateful symbolism of the CF to Blacks. A politician from the North seeking support in the South should give thought as to how his words might be misconstrued. That's part of the art of being a politician, to get it right the first time and not step on your message.

Some would argue, myself included, that Dean is not the most skilled spokesperson for gaining Southern support that the Party has to offer this year. I feel Edwards, Clark, Kerry, and perhaps others make a better first impression connection with most southern voters. That by itself does not prove, even if you accept it as true, that Dean might not be the strongest overall candidate the Democrats have to offer this year. In my opinion, however, Wesley Clark is that man, and nominating Dean will make it easier for Bush to do his Southern campaign on automatic pilot.

[helleborient]

27. Thank you for your response...

If Dean isn't the nominee...and someone else does do some work at luring those voters back to the fold and do it better than Dean would...I'm glad that Dean brought it up, however un-artfully.

If Dean is the nominee, I think they will go back to the drawing board and come up with a better response. Politicians usually do learn as the campaign goes on.

Thank goodness the Bill Clinton running in the N.H. primary in 1992 was not the Bill Clinton we saw on the bus tour after the Democratic convention!

I do think the South is very important if we want a mandate to try to get out of the bloody deadlock that is D.C. these days. As I've said elsewhere, there is no strong forward-looking legislation that can be adopted in that environment. Everything is hobbled by the sharp 50/50 partisan division.

[democratreformed]

35. I have to ask this

Hopefully, you won't think I'm stupid - but - where did this notion come from that poor white southerners are suddenly voting for Repubs?

For the most part, what I have noticed is that the opposite is true. Most older people (especially those on fixed incomes) KNOW that the Dem party is their true supporter. My grandmother even told me that last night during the debate. She said "Everyone knows that the Democrats are the one who have done the most for us."

Seriously, has there been some research done? I suspect that the South, as times were more prosperous, gained more wealthy people. Those are the ones that vote Republican. The only die-hard Repub I know is my father - who is considered a well-to-do business man.

Also, when Clark first announced his candidacy, I got Clark bars from the victory rally I attended and I proudly displayed them in my office. One day, a salesman came in. Seeing my Clark bars, he asked if I supported Clark. After I said yes, he mentioned that was very odd since most "business types" usually prefer Republicans. Of course, I just work for my dad. In another post I pointed out that I am most assuredly middle class. Even though my husband and I own a small business also, it is far from making us wealthy (we have hope, though :)).

By the way, I think my dad is about to be converted away from the current Republican at least.

Anyway, I was just wondering about this. Does anyone know the answer?

[Upfront]

25. Well Put Sir.

You speak the truth as I see it. Go Dean!

[burr]

28. abolishing the Electoral College will allow all votes to count everywhere!

Democrats will never win the south back, or at least until there is another depression. But what Democrats must focus on doing in the short-term is building up the party's base in the midwest and the pacific coast.

Ditching the best elements of the traditional Democratic message just isn't worth winning a few southern states, especially when this message is beginning to catch on in parts of America which have traditionally voted Republican.

[Padraig18]

29. Who said anything about 'ditching' the best part of the message?

If anything, Dean wants to get that message out to people who need to hear it the most--- the people of the South who vote against their own self-interest. He said nothing about abandoning the Democratic 'message'.

[unfrigginreal]

30. Doesn't that amaze you?

I know it does me, the amount of posters suggesting that Dean somehow wants to give up Democratic core values by appealing to blue collar Southerners. What are we chopped liver?

[burr]

31. When did I suggest this???

My point is that poor and working class white southern Democrats along with black southern Democrats are voting...but what good will it do us if we cannot win any of those electoral votes?

The Democrats must embrace the abolishment of the electoral college as part of their agenda. Strange how people responding will read the worse into a message. I agreed with almost all of what Dean said in the last debate!

One other thing...the following link shows how Gore won no electoral votes in the south. But also shows how he ran strongly in the black belt and along the Mississippi delta..based on the county by county breakdown. Is it right to just throw these votes out under our present system? I think democratic party candidates ought to start living up to these principles!
<http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/pe2000.html>

[Padraig18]

32. you said it here:

"...Ditching the best elements of the traditional Democratic message just isn't worth winning a few southern states...."

What did you mean? :shrug:

[burr]

34. That wasn't tha question...

"I know it does me, the amount of posters suggesting that Dean somehow wants to give up Democratic core values by appealing to blue collar Southerners. What are we chopped liver?"

I was asking that poster "when" I suggested that Dean wanted to give up core Democratic values to appeal to southern voters. I did not make such a suggestion. And this reference about "chopped liver"...to be honest this is how I feel with every passing election.

And I say this as a working, southern voter.

Not as a conservative, but as one who is extremely pissed off, surprise surprise!!! My fear is that focusing exclusively on the south would result in some sacrifices in agenda. This doesn't mean that I believe Dean will do this!

But I do believe that Dean has support in the south...though we are not a majority in any state. And I believe Dean can win in many traditionally Republican states that Gore assumed he would lose in 2000. All I am saying is that Democrats need to re-evaluate our traditional relationship with regional voters, and the overall collapse of partisan voting in America. And based on idealogy and polling, we must determine which regions and voters our party would have the best shot for building up a new political base of support.

Unfortunately the Repukes saw this trend decades ago, and acted out of necessity..because they were on the outside wanting to get in.

[burr]

33. Not Dean....

But in Al Gore's attempts to win in Florida and some of the border states, I remember much of the message was ditched for this objective. Gore ditched Democrat's message of universal healthcare, and he replaced it with coupons for buying prescriptions drugs! He ditched our message of paying down the national debt, and replaced it with a nicely watered-down taxcut plan. And he ditched our message of freedom and democracy, replacing it with talk about V-chips and government of, by, and..for the corporations.

Not that it got him anywhere...most people in the south wanted a fascist, and they voted for za real thang. And there was no Ross Perot to help us that time!