YES!! Dean just apologized

[mandyky]

on CNN for any pain and discomfort his flag remarks may have caused!

[Demobrat]

1. Is he at the NY event?

Was it live?

[mandyky]

9. MSNBC is carrying it live on the site

http://www.msnbc.com/m/lv/default.asp?0cv=c644

[a_lil_wall_fly]

2. Oh

but not in front of the other candidates.

COWARD HOWARD!!!!!!!!

[Darth_Kitten]

4. Why did he need to apologize anyways?

Can't people just see the big picture or are they all just waiting to be offended?

:eyes:

[mandyky]

7. He apologized if the comment caused pain

He DID NOT apologize for the remark, he said most people understood what he was trying to say.

[Cha]

15. Dean is Not a "coward"...the other candidates

are the demagogues for twisting his words. I'm glad Dean didn't "apologize" in front of those lying, slurping, hypocrites.

Dean is so Great and I'm so happy he's in this race!

[helleborient]

19. It doesn't make a lot of sense...

To apologize when other people have your arm twisted behind your back shouting at you to call "Uncle"

I'm sure if that had happened you would be most likely be exulting in either the bullying tactics of those shouting for apologies...or attacking the apology for being insincere.

Apologizing on one's own is more sincere and easily addressed to everyone, not just to someone shouting in your face.

[mbali]

27. Apologizing the morning after

he got his butt kicked on the issue seems any more sincere than having done it during the debate?

I don't agree. In my view, his last good chance for an apology was last night. He didn't take it. What has changed between last night and this morning besides bad press and continued criticism? If he's his own man, as he likes to portray himself, why should that make any difference?

[wryter2000]

3. Good

I was always very happy with the sentiment behind his Confederate flag statements. But using that symbol was really unfortunate. Now I feel we can move on.

[Democrats unite]

5. To bad his supporters can't here on DU...

They think is was great. Didin't take long for the full force to hit him like it should have. I guess better late than never.

[Rose Siding]

11. You misunderstand

There was nothing wrong with what he said.

He apologized for offending anyone but he did NOT apologize for saying what he said.

He went on to say the discussion about race will be difficult but must be done.

Pressure from critics doesn't daunt him. That, if nothing else should be plain by now.

[Cha]

16. That's right! Dean is so cool with his words!

It's exactly the right way to do things.

[DrFunkenstein]

38. Sometimes I Just Have To Giggle

"That's right! Dean is so cool with his words! It's exactly the right way to do things."

<>

[helleborient]

52. Oh come now...

Sarcastic laughing when someone is supporting their candidate?

What would be the appropriate response if someone said the same about Kerry?

Yes, you disagree...and that's fine...no need for sarcasm.

[arcos]

126. I agree... n/t

[caledesi]

71. Dean really knows how to "frame the issue" ..

[DemBones DemBones]

123. Here's Dean showing "the right way to do things."

[mandyky]

17. The Dean campaign actually read their blogs

and they take suggestions. You are right Dean apologized for the pain and offense he may have caused, not the remark. WTG Howard!

[DemBones DemBones]

124. So Howard doesn't know how to behave in a civilized manner

unless people tell him on his blog? THAT is scary. And the "apology" was a half-assed one at best. Howard just doesn't get it. My husband suggested it's that "Doctor = God" syndrome. He knows he has to be right because he has M.D. after his name!

[sandnsea]

6. He regretted causing pain

Not exactly an apology.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

13. As I thought...

Dean is not truly remorseful at all of his statements.

As Senator Edwards stated "Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do. That's the last thing in the world we need in the South."

[helleborient]

21. An endorsement by Edwards...

Of past regionalism in politics...this statement stands right with Strom Thurmond exiting the Democratic Party for its support of Civil Rights in 1948.

It is so very sad.

I still haven't heard what Edwards "somebody like you" means.

I basically think Sen. Edwards owes the entire nation an apology for dredging up past political skeletons to attack another candidate.

I will stop now...and try to head back to the positive.

I do apologize for adding fuel to the fire.

[DrFunkenstein]

44. Edwards Is Strom Thurmond Now?

I don't think any of the candidates standing up here deserve to be compared to Strom Thurmond.

<>

[a_lil_wall_fly]

46. Very true

If anything Dean is grasping at too lure the Dixie-crat mindset!!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

83. Actually that would describe Edwards

who a couple of weeks ago called the confederate flag a frivolous culture war issue, then hypocritically said of Dean, that the last thin we need in the South is someone coming down here and telling us how to do things. Edwards apparently just wants to be President of the South.

[helleborient]

53. If you make the comparison to Newt...

Strom was the king of Southern regionalism in politics...

[helleborient]

67. And I'm apologizing now...

Geez it is so damn easy to be led down the path of bitter attacks.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

77. Well Dean misspoke lead all of us down that path

:O

[helleborient]

97. It's up to others to rise above...

If they want to present inspring leadership.

Put some chalk marks next to Wesley Clark's name for rising above this.

[mmonk]

8. Good

he just put it to rest. Now he can talk about the job losses in the south, their republican voting lately, race issues or anything he wants and they will listen without being turned off.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Was it like "I'm sorry you misunderstood what I said" ?

I'm looking forward to reading his remarks.

[VermontDem2004]

12. I wouldn't of apologized

I knew what he meant by those comments and so did most people, the funny thing is those comments were posted here months before this whole "contraversy" broke through and no one was screaming racism or whatever not even the "Dean bashers". I find it funny after so many months after Dean originally said this they finally attack him on it. It wasn't like he said it last week, he said it a long time ago.

[mmonk]

14. So using that imagery is a good idea?

don't think so.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

18. That use of image is damn shameful

It was not until after WW2 that the South -- felt ecomonic growth. Yes some areas did see some growth but from the Reconstruction period thru Pre-Depression era kept the average southern(Anglo and African-American) in the poor house...why????

Cause of Northern influences--CARPETBAGGERS....wanted to punish those who supported the REBEL Flag.

Hence the strong showing of the Dixie-crats in the 40's thru early 60's.

What was the primary group of people that the Dixie-crats ... low-to-middle class Anglo families with long histories in the south that have had everything lost too them because of the Civil War and still waving the REBEL FLAG.

Who did Dean try to convey this message?
Those same people.
If Dean what to get that type of message out to gain a small percentage to lose more than that. Fine with me.. Clark and Edwards will get the South and then get more share of the Midwest.

[Padraig18]

20. Edwards will withdraw before the Midwestern primaries.

His campaign is sinking.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

41. Dean needs too take Iowa before

Yes Dean is winning in NH. But what is the value of NH vs. Iowa or SC?

If Dean get NH, Gepardt gets IA, and Clark/Edwards gets SC--guess who is in the lead.....NOT DEAN.



Why is Dean still sending letters to NH ..he should be focusing on IA and SC!!!!!

What he wants to puff up his ego on a possible 20%+ win in NH?
What he thinks that Gepardt will roll over at the last minute in IA?

[Hawkeye-X]

80. IA goes to Dean, NH goes to Dean, SC Dean 2nd, maybe

if Edwards is lucky (His campaign is sinking AGAIN. He had it going for a bit, but is sinking AGAIN)

Edwards will have no choice but to withdraw and back Kerry which means ZERO votes for Kerry.

But otherwise, I see SC for Dean.

No questions asked.

Dean is the man I want him sitting in the White House and cleaning up the mess that * left, and hopefully indicting * for all his crimes as well as his cronies.

Hawkeye-X

[a_lil_wall_fly]

100. Well time will tell

Dean will be luck to get 2nd in SC...if he is 4th-6th: his life in the south will be very tough.. and god forbid him get in the lower bracket--this would truly make the campaign nearly impossible.
If Edwards throws in the towel I doubt him going for Kerry..my bet would be Kunnich or Sharpton.

[arcos]

127. Edwards would definitely endorse Kerry (or Clark), imho... n/t

[helleborient]

22. Why did Southern Democrats vote for FDR...

A blue-blood New Yorker?

[a_lil_wall_fly]

28. He didn't use

the REBEL FLAG as a drawing point to get the masses of the South behind him.
He used the REPUBLICAN dominated Recontruction Era agenda as a focial point. Making a strong sympathy case that the North use its influences to punish the South for a long period of time after the Civil War.

[Padraig18]

29. The South was already Democratic in 1932

:eyes:

[paulk]

42. Race wasn't an issue in 1932

FDR got 23% of the black vote, nationwide.

It wasn't until later that the Democratic party began reaching out to the black electorate - which led to the Dixiecrats and the current Republican south.

http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/party_of_lincoln.htm

[Padraig18]

50. I'm aware of that.

My response was to point out that FDR didn't 'win' the South in any significantly new way in 1932--- it was already solid.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

54. Great historical link

Thanks for the reference.

[helleborient]

30. I thought Dean was trying to make a case...

That current Republican policies are punishing a number of voters in the South by loss of jobs, loss of affordable healthcare, and crumbling public education, and giving them instead symbols to hold on to, lip-service to their religious beliefs, and support against those evil gay people.

His wording was not artful, but he is trying to open that dialogue again that FDR had.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

45. Your words state the point at hand

"His wording was not artful, but he is trying to open that dialogue again that FDR had."

His mis-statements are what is the issue is and well as his lack of appearent regard of others!!!!

[helleborient]

59. So we shouldn't care what he's trying to do...

We should only care about the rhetoric?

If we are only caring about the rhetoric, I stand firmly by my frustration with John Edwards "someone like you" comment.

John Edwards built his campaign around not attacking other candidates...what happened?

Howard Dean has not built his campaign around being nice...and neither did FDR, Harry Truman, or Bill Clinton

[a_lil_wall_fly]

78. You should

be unhappy by Edwards statement..but Dean threw down the gaunlet with the issue of "someone like you" by catagorizing low-to-middle class Southern votes.

[helleborient]

94. Again tit-for-tat gets us nowhere...

Edwards failed to rise above that even though he and his supporters touted him for months as someone who can and does.

It's very disappointing.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

101. It's very disappointing.....

for Dean to make a poor worded statement that can cause such a great deal of grief is not good either. What do you think the head of GOP is think of Dean's statement?

[helleborient]

106. Do you really think the GOP is going to open up the box of...

The Confederate flag in a national campaign?

How exactly do they spin that...attack it and anger their constituency in the South?

Support it and anger their corporate wealth constituency?

They would gladly revisit the Trent Lott debacle?

I really don't think forcing George W. Bush to talk about the Confederate flag is a bad thing at all for Democrats.

[AP]

76. Because he was a traitor to his class, and made a huge effort to present

himself as someone who truely understood the plight of the working person.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

79. LOL..Traitor to his own class

:evilgrin:

[Classical_Liberal]

85. Actually someone who says that Dean is racist

because he want white voters in the South to vote class instead of race would fit that description much better. I don't know how a dem that says otherwise sleeps at night.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

86. Yeah..

misspoken words have led the downfall of politicans before and I think that this case Dean will be needing to be more careful about what and how he presents ideas to the general public.

[helleborient]

96. Agreed...

And I would expect the campaign is working on that already.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

102. I hope

but they should take a page out of CMB campaign and stay focus on the issues that he want to convey and not snipe at others. Let the others make fools of themselves and let the general public make their choice during the general primaries next year.

[mbali]

33. Or

"I'm sorry you just don't get it."

[redqueen]

23. I hope this is over now.

I think it was unfortunate he chose *that* symbol. I understand his message and agree but I'm glad he's apologized.

I can understand those who think it's less than a full apology for using the symbol, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't exactly go away completely, but I hope to God that the other candidates will just let it go.

[helleborient]

25. And I hope we come up with better ways to approach Southern voters...

And don't continue to ostracize those that have voted Republican in the most recent elections. Let's work for their votes just like we would work for any other votes.

[Nicholas_J]

24. Dean has done absolutely several foolish things

First he uses the most divisive symbol in American History in discussing gaining voters for the democratic party, you know those people with confederate flag stickers on their "TRUCKS"

and then this not being enough, he decides to go further and link this with one of the most objectionable stereotypes of white southerners...

POOR WHITE SOUTHERNERS.

He might as well have just used the words poor white trash, or stated he would like to attract guys named "Bubba" or "Billy Bob"

Dean visited my city yesterday, and all the news did was discuss the fact that he was here, to raise money and the confederate flag statement. NOTHING ELSE.

Southern political consultants got more time discussing what a mistake it was, than Dean got.

There are lots very rich well educated southerners with those bumpers stickers on their 38 mile per gallon SUV's on whom the Deans sterotype was not lost.

And many southern blacks in this city are NOT very happy about it.


We had a major murder and discovery of a disimembered body in this area yesterday as well, and one news-station, put up a a picture of Dean but accidentally used the tape needed for the section on the murder which began..."a gruesome event has occured today..."

"HOWARD DEAN... Dividing American Voters ONE SPEECH AT A TIME"


The iron was TOO thick.

[helleborient]

32. Bill Clinton proudly courted the "Bubba" vote...stereotypes and all...

And many of us happily followed him to two easy elections as President.

You know, basically, with no new ideas, we will lose the South like we have recently.

With new ideas, we might have a fighting chance.

If we win the South, we may have a chance for a true mandate to govern.

I think it's worth a shot.

[Padraig18]

35. yep.

As I've asked some other DU-ers, "So, how's that (old strategy) workin' for ya?" :shrug:

[Nicholas_J]

68. Clinton

Did not start courting it with the most negative image associated with the South...the flag of "the Cause"

Dean has no used virtually every negative stereotype of southerners and associate it with that flag.

"Guys with pick up trucks with confederate flag stickers on them..

"POOR UNEDUCATED WHITES"

All that is needed to to for Dean to give his ignorance of the south away it to get a guy named Cletus to endorse him, and then we will all gladly get some watermelon, fried Chicken and a keg of beer and have one big old tailgate party for Howard.

What a nit-wit.

Dean also pulled his usual ploy of showing up at a border city of a state yesterday, Jacksonville, and having supporters supporters from Alabama, Georgia, and the rest of the State Of Florida come from all over to give the appearance of wide support in this city, but the reception of local democrats was rather chilly. most of the room in the Omni Hotel where he spoke was filled with outside Dean supporters, as was easy to ascertain from the fact that the cars with Howard Dean stickers and out of state license taks outnumbered cars from in state and only ONE with a local county plate.

[9119495]

87. Yeah but

Didn't CLinton say something about people (perhaps including himself) owning ElCaminos with Astro-turf in the back? If so, is that one of those "I'm in that group so I can make the joke" type situations?

[helleborient]

93. Bill Clinton was such a master at this...

He leaves Arkansas for college and comes back after having been a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, but can come back and convincingly portray himself as being just like everyone else. It is a true gift to be admired.

[robbedvoter]

99. Bill Clinton understood intimately the plight of the Blacks

A lot of the Arkansas Project was racially motivated. Rangel said: "There's no one who tried to take this man down who didn't try to take us down"
Big Dog's credibility with blacks was based on a life time of actions - not for quoting MLK right after boosting the C-Flag.
He was able to retain the love of the black community eveb after the welfare reform and moving the party to the center - because Blacks responded to him personaly. I don't see a lot of analogy here.

[helleborient]

111. We've had other Democratic politicians who were able to bridge that divide

And didn't have the "intimate" understanding of African-American experience you speak of.

FDR and JFK come to mind.

It just seems a number of people are getting stuck in the you have to have the personal experience of being like, living with, etc. to understand a particular group of people. And I really don't want to support them if they don't have that.

Well, basically, I don't know any of the candidates who grew up in rural area of the Midwest...does that mean I should just say, well, none of them "gets" what my concerns are. That seems absurd.

[w13rd0]

26. He apologized for the pain and discomfort...

...that his comment caused...for his opponents for the democratic primary. Those are the people that seemed most offended...after he'd been saying this for months. I too am sorry that they seem so pained. Their anguish must have been just boiling over for months, from the time he first made the comment to enthusiastic response at the DNC forum months ago...

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbali]

56. Thank you for your charming and rational response . . .

which simply reinforced my point.

[redqueen]

34. This is another thing that needs to stop.

Using his speech and reception at the DNC forum as some kind of 'it's no big deal, really' measure.

A lot of people had no idea he had been saying that. Most of us admit that it's mainly politics junkies that are paying close attention to the candidates right now.

What the focus on Dean's statement now does, is expose it to the general public. That's why it's such a big deal now.

For all we know it's the supporters of other candidates driving them to clobber Dean with it.

Regardless, it's time to admit that just because the DNC audience didn't have a problem with it, that that means that nobody in America has a problem with it.

America now knows what Howard Dean has been saying, and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that NOT everybody can 'look past it' and get his message.

[Padraig18]

37. On the plus side:

We've finally broken the deadly conspiracy of silence about this 'elephant in the room'. As a party, having a dialogue about this cancer we have allowed to form and spread throughout the South for 20+ years can only be a good thing; you can't address a problem, until you acknowledge that you have one.

True? :hi:

[mbali]

49. Do you think that Dean "broke the silence"

about race in America? Not hardly.

This issue has been discussed and dealt with for decades. Howard Dean is NOT on the cutting edge, nor is he saying anything particularly innovative, insightful or even thought-provoking. In fact, it's the utter shallowness of his comments and his views that is sparking the controversy.

But, frankly, that attitude is typical of Dean and many of supporters. You guys seem to think that Dean is some kind of race relations prophet. He is not. Only people who are completely unfamiliary with the race issue and its complexities and context would believe such a thing.

I don't believe that Dean and his crowd are insensitive or not well-meaning. But you guys just don't have enough of an understanding of the issue to do this amount of grandstanding and lecturing about it. It sounds arrogant, condescending and childish.

[Padraig18]

55. Good Lord!

He broke the silence about why we continue to allow the Repukes to ham-handedly grab onto a constituency that they do not serve? How in God's name did you get anything other than that out of what I posted? :eyes:

[helleborient]

43. Aren't you possibly impugning the intelligence of African-American voters?

Howard Dean has said multiple times through all of this that he finds the Confederate flag an offensive symbol.

He is using just as harsh words about the flag itself as a symbol as any other candidate.

Don't you think African-Americans can hear what Howard Dean said and know what he's talking about? And that he's not supporting the flag and he's not talking about them?

Dennis Kucinich receives strong support from many of his supporters specifically because his principles and policies are very well thought out, but it does require an individual to have more than a 30-second attention span to understand them and read them.

I do think it takes more than a 30-second attention span to understand what Howard Dean was talking about and to read what he actually said.

It only takes 30-seconds to see "Peace Dept." or "changing opinion on abortion" about Dennis Kucinich and start bludgeoning.

It only takes 30-seconds to see Confederate battle flag and start screaming at Howard Dean.

Encourage people to read, pay attention, and elevate the ideas and rhetoric...living in a 30-second world is no fun.

[redqueen]

60. Most certainly not.

It's not their intelligence that is the issue. Just because one doesn't pay close attention to pre-primary candidates' posturing doesn't make one unintelligent.

As far as what they think he's talking about I have no idea and I don't enjoy playing mindreading games so I won't participate in trying to guess what an entire community might or might not think about his comments.

I do know that now that's in the mainstream media, as opposed to being relegated to debate transcripts, that it's garnered a lot more attention.

You're right that it takes consideration to evaluate an agenda. Just as some have been turned off of Kucinich's message based solely on his past views on abortion rights, some will be turned off of Dean's message based solely on his past comments on Affirmative Action -- and this flap doesn't help him.

And contrary to what some on here think, I don't think it really does much to help race relations either.

[helleborient]

69. I think starting a dialogue might...

Instead of throwing bottle rockets at each other.

We were doing some of that on here this morning...and I was very pleased to see someone post who does display the Confederate flag. I learned and was moved.

[Pez]

36. i thought the DNC were eeeeeviiiiiiiil....

now you are citing establishment support as a good thing?

i thought those insiders were a bunch of bush-lite slime-balls who dean was trying to reclaim the democratic party from.

[Padraig18]

39. That's the DLC. n/t

[Pez]

61. lots of people make no distinction around here n/t

[RevolutionStartsNow]

40. Right on Howard!

I understood his statement way back when I first heard it, and I thought the "flap" was pure political grandstanding by the other candidates.

I never thought he needed to apologize for his remarks, but to apologize for any pain it may have caused seems reasonable. Proves that Dean pays attention to his supporters, who have been asking him to do this.

Looking forward to Meetup tonight...

[caledesi]

72. Where are you meeting up A? I will be going to a Tampa meetup.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

74. We are starting a new Meetup in a Latino area

Our Meetup has grown so much that we are splitting into 3 sites this month. One site will be in a nearby town that is 70% Latino. We did bilingual fliers and distributed them widely.

I'm getting off a plane from Burbank at 5:45 pm, driving home, about an hour from the airport, and going immediately to the Meetup, hopefully will make it by 7. Whew.

But I can't wait.

Oh, this is in Santa Cruz, on the coast north of Monterey, Calif.

[kimchi]

47. Goddess, people, why do we continue to eat our own?

His wording was poor, people were offended, he apologized for any pain and discomfort his remarks caused. Obviously, he realized that he hadn't communicated his ideas effectively. I have the same problem myself sometimes.

So lets lynch him for being a poor communicator and too proud/aloof/whatever to understand that some people were offended. Lets accuse him of being divisive, mean spirited, and duplicitous. Obviously, the media needs our help in maligning a man who, whether we support him NOW or not, MAY become our candidate.

We have bigger problems to deal with. If you honestly, truly think that Dean is insensitive to ethnicity then you should have been shouting it from the rooftops before now; I mean, you'd think there would have been clues. Poor communication and a bit of ego maybe, but Dean is no racist, and would be a credit to our country if we won.
(Kucinich supporter)

[w13rd0]

57. Thank you for saying...

..."if WE won"...because that's what it is. Any of the 9 get the nomination, and take the White House, WE win. We may not win as much as we might have wanted to if our nominee isn't the one that gets the nod, but WE win. I think some of those so fixated on attacking Candidate A or Candidate B forget that. And for our purposes, I'm also including one note songs that seem to have a long history of slamming Kerry in every post, or slamming Lieberman, or whoever...

[eissa]

51. He should not have apologized

at the debate. I'm glad he did not give the satisfaction to the desperate tag team of Kerry/Edwards/Sharpton (who have done NOTHING for race relations or to bring the southern white votes that everyone agrees we need to win this election). We all know what Dean meant by that comment and we all know why his detractors are hanging all over it. Case closed.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

64. Well

his stubbornness is going to be his own undoing then.

He should have apologized last night and then turn the table on the Trio.

But no -- he didnt do that at all. He just wants his name in the media at all costs.

[mbali]

66. What has Dean done for race relations

in his entire career - aside from make a couple of stupid comments about race now that he's running for president?

I've asked this question before and gotten absolutely no answer. But now that YOU brought it up by attacking Kerry, Edwards and Sharpton for doing, in your words "NOTHING for race relations," I'm sure you can provide a substantial litany of things that Dean has done in this regard.

Please be specific.

[mzmolly]

91. Why don't you tell us what your candidate has done for Race Relations

Here's a start regarding Dean.

http://www.blacksfordean.com/faq.htm

http://www.blacksfordean.com/newslog/archives/00000026.html

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

[mbali]

115. You didn't answer my question

Instead you cited:

1) Blacks for Dean FAQ - not one of which cites a single thing that Dean has done for race relations;

2) a quote from Dean in which he praised members of Congress for introducing the The Healthcare Equality and Accountability Act of 2003.

3) a list of black people who have endorsed Dean

So, obviously, once again, Dean folks can't seem to come up with anything that their candidate has actually DONE to advance the cause of civil rights.

Now, let's take a look at some of the things MY candidate has done to advance civil rights. Since you think that Dean should get credit for standing on the sidelines and applauding members of Congress for introducing pro-civil rights legislation, I can only imagine how excited you will be to read this partial list of civil rights legislation that John Edwards actually introduced just this year:

1) Co-sponsored legislation in support of historically black colleges and universities;

2) Co-sponsored the Equal Rights and Equal Dignity for Americans Act of 2003, anti-hate crime legislation;

3) Co-sponsored legislation urging a ban on racial profiling;

4) Co-sponsored legislation awarding a gold medal on behalf of the Congress to Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King , Jr. and his widow Coretta Scott King in recognition of their contributions to the Nation on behalf of the civil rights movement.

5) Co-sponsored the Genetic Nondiscrimination in Health Insurance and Employment Act;

6) Co-sponsored the Help America Vote Act of 2002;

7) Co-sponsored legislation to increase the minimum wage;

8) Co-sponsored legislation to award a congressional gold medal to Jackie Robinson in recognition of his many contributions to the Nation, and to express the sense of Congress that there should be a national day in recognition of Jackie Robinson;

9) Co-sponsored legislation to construct a national memorial to Martin Luther King;

10) Co-sponsored legislation to establish the National Museum of African American History and Culture;


And he's putting his money - and his political hide - where his mouth is. Among other things, Sen. Edwards has been fighting the appointment of bad federal judges who are hostile to civil rights - including Janice Rogers Brown, who is currently being considered by the Senate Judiciary Committee. In fact, Edwards has been so effective in standing up and fighting Bush on these nominations that Republicans have taken out television ads in South Carolina attacking him for helping to hold up this nomination. He took down Charles Pickering in one of the most blistering cross-examinations ever seen in the Senate Judiciary Committee. He has, in the face of fierce criticism in his home state, blocked bad North Carolina nominees, single-handedly stopping at least one anti-civil rights judge from getting a hearing in the Judiciary Committee. These are just a couple of examples.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

You can say what you want to about John Edwards, but you CANNOT claim (at least not truthfully) that he has not done anything to advance the cause of race relations and civil rights.

[mzmolly]

119. I imagined you'd peruse the links I posted. If you want to know what Dean

has done, you are welcome to use the search engine here.

www.deanforamerica.com

In addition, Dean was a Governor and Edwards a Senator. Dean is not in a position to "co-sponsor" bills.

Also, keep in mind Edwards authored the Patriot Act. That did alot for 'race relations' huh? Ask the numerous Americans being detained today with out their 'CIVIL RIGHTS'.

Here is some info to 'chew' on. Again keep in mind, you wont find he sponsored legislation as the Governor of Vermont.

Please see my thread here for starters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=611342

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/Search?query=civil+rights&inc=10&x=-1&y=-1

[mbali]

120. I read everything you linked to ...

That's how I know that nothing you cited made the point you claimed they made.

"In addition, Dean was a Governor and Edwards a Senator. Dean is not in a position to "co-sponsor" bills . . . 'Building on a commitment to equal rights for all Americans, Governor Dean has signed into law tougher penalties for hate crimes, as well as tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more.'"

I see. You give Dean credit for signing a civil rights bill into law but don't want to give Edwards credit for introducing civil rights legislation since Dean, who is not a Senator, was in no position to do the same. So, shouldn't that cancel out any discussion of bills that Dean signed, since Edwards is not a Governor and, thus, is not in a position to "sign" bills?

And it's somewhat amusing that you cited as an example of Dean's civil rights record his praise (or "applause") for members of Congress who introduced a health disparities bill that he liked. But you now completely discount numerous examples of John Edwards introducing civil rights legislation. In other words, Dean gets credit for standing on the sidelines and applauding people for doing something that you don't want to give John Edwards for actually doing himself. Interesting.

It's great that Dean signed a bill that prohibited discrimination against homosexuals. He should get credit for it. But that's not germane to this discussion, which is about what the candidates have done to advance race relations. I cited more than a dozen things that Edwards has done for the cause of race relations. You, on the other hand, have cited nothing that Dean has done to further the cause of race relations. I'm not claiming that he hasn't done anything - in fact, I would love to know what he has done and have given you and other Dean supporters ample opportunity to share such things with the rest of us.

I would think that with all of your big talk about Dean and race - and your attacks on other candidates for apparently not measuring up to your candidate's record in this area - you would be able to articulate at least one or two things that Dean has done to further racial equality and justice in this country.

And it would also seem that you could do so without attacking the other candidates, especially those who have been fighting this cause for years. As I've said before, Dean did not invent the race dialogue and he's not doing anything particularly innovative or cutting-edge. And, if the paucity of information you've presented is any indication, he's pretty far behind the curve on the issue.

[mzmolly]

121. I'm sorry I don't think you read my post. The quote you referenced was

not about the Civil Unions bill.

Here is the quote you reference before noting the Civil Unions legislation?

"Building on a commitment to equal rights for all Americans, Governor Dean has signed into law tougher penalties for hate crimes, as well as tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more."

Quotes on Affirmative Action and Discrimination.

“We need affirmative action in this country, and we ought to stand up and say so and be proud of it as a society.

I'm tired of being divided. I'm tired of being divided by race, I'm tired of being divided by income, by gender, by religion. If this country is ever going to work, we have to acknowledge... that we are responsible for each other and to each other.”

“Let’s start calling racial profiling what it is—discrimination based upon race."
"This is a civil rights issue, and that makes it a federal issue."

"Racial discrimination is illegal in hiring, housing, and voting. It should be illegal as a law enforcement technique too."

"Racial profiling is wrong.”

Dean has done much for mankind regardless of "race."

However, I dont imagine there is much the Governor of Vermont can do to satisfy your desire in this regard frankly. It seems you want to compare a Governor to a Senator, and that is difficult to do. In fact, A Senator hasn't been elected to the OO for many moons becaue many value the experience of Govs over Senators? :shrug:

Additionally, I commend John Edwards for his efforts in this regard.

I'm firmly ABB by the way.

~Peace

[mbali]

122. I read your post thoroughly

and then researched it myself. The only legislation I have found that Howard Dean signed dealing with hate crimes or placing "tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more," as you described applied only to homosexuals. I'm not criticizing him for this - he should be commended - just pointing out that the legislation to which you're referring doesn't do what you think it did.

Now, if you can cite to any such legislation he signed that applied to racial discrimination, I'd be happy to take a look. But so far, all you've done is provide a direct - and oft-repeated - quote from Dean campaign materials with no details.

And, as I noted earlier, citing quotes of things that Dean has SAID about race relations does nothing to respond to my request for examples of things that Dean has actually DONE to further race relations.

Again, I'm not criticizing Dean for a skimpy record on race, nor do I think he doesn't mean well. And I'm not asking Dean for any satisfaction or even holding him to a particularly difficult standard. I simply asked - in response to some rather pointed remarks by you and others about the shortcomings of the other candidates on the race issue - for information on what Dean has done on race. Apparently, no one can come up with anything other than talk.

Should someone with such a sketchy record on race be pointing fingers at the other candidates - most of whom have demonstrated a much stronger record on race than he has - and insisting that he is THE MAN on race while the rest are just following his lead?

I think not.

Like you, I'm an ABB

[Pez]

58. dean tricks tutorial: 180 kickflip frontside pop shuvit to feeble grind

too little, too late. the problem is, dean is a loose canon and will say whatever he thinks people want to hear. he has had to back-pedal on several occasions for mis-statments, and has had to clarify and explain himself. his record and his presidential campaign aren't what i would call complementary; his numerous campaign gaffes, 180 degree reversals on almost every key issue and inability to effectively communicate and keep his cool in a debate setting are troublesome. if he's the nominee of course i will "fall in line", but his amatuer stumbling and fumbling on the campaign trail and lack of experience give dubya tons of ammo.

besides his record being contradictory to his campaign rhetoric, his back-pedaling and abysmal debate skills continue to turn me off.

more importantly, kerry has a life-long career successfully standing up to special interests and advancing the democrats' agenda on civil rights, women's issues and the environment, and has important foreign policy experience; he's spot on in debates and can effectively and naturally communicate in debates and on the campaign trail. my focus isn't so much on why dean isn't our best candidate but why kerry is.

[Padraig18]

63. He sure fought those IWR/Haliburton/Bechtel special interests!

:eyes:

[Nicholas_J]

70. I am glad Dean is screwing up early as there is a phenomenon

In politics knows as Buyers Remorse, and this is the earliest it has ever seemed to kick in:

Anybody but Dean?
Jules Witcover

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally published Oct 27, 2003

Jules Witcover
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NASHUA, N.H. - There's a phenomenon in politics known as "buyer's remorse." Like a shopper who chooses an expensive new car and then has second thoughts, it refers to a candidate who wins strong early support, only to trigger a desire among voters to change their minds.
It occurred most conspicuously in 1976, when Jimmy Carter won a series of early primaries and was on his way to the Democratic presidential nomination when doubts arose about whether he could beat Republican President Gerald Ford.

The result was late-starting candidacies by Gov. Jerry Brown of California and Sen. Frank Church of Idaho. Between the two of them, they won most of the remaining primaries, but it was too late to deny Mr. Carter the nomination. The Democratic Party was stuck with a candidate who turned out to be the next president of the United States.

What's happening now in the emergence of retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark as a presidential candidate here is an early version of buyer's remorse, even before the sale on the Democratic front-runner, former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont, has been closed.

http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.witcover27oct27,0,2514832.column?coll=bal-home-columnists

AS noted,most of the time this happens too late, and the party endsa up keeping the candidate it bought, reluctantly.

This time it is setting in rather early.


Dean lead on other candidtes is actually less than Bill Bradleys was over Gore in November of 1999, with Bradley running at up to 45 percetn in many polls and in New Hampshire.

We didnt get a Bradley nomination.

The fact that as soon as Clark entered the race, Dean's polling dropped and for a brief period, Clark was the man up front, is indicative that a great many people have second thoughts abut Dean.

[helleborient]

73. I invite everyone to read the full cited article...

As this is a very deceptive post and doesn't really address the full gist of the article.

The article talks about buyer's remorse with two campaigns - one with Carter who won the nomination and the election - one with McGovern who did not.

In neither of those situations were the "anyone but" campaigns successful.

From my look at things we have not had an "anyone but" campaign be successful yet.

This article provides no support for the notion that such a camapaign against Dean would be successful.

Please read the article...ignore the post.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

75. LOL Thanks for pointing that out

Why am I not surprised?

[Cocoa]

62. good

It must have been hard not to dig in, now that the stakes are so high.

I feel better about Dean now. I hope this whole thing soon goes away, I hope Dean and Sharpton will hug and move on.

[ErasureAcer]

65. dean playing into the grey area once again

and people actually want this guy to be the nominee?

[SahaleArm]

81. Blind devotion:)?

[robbedvoter]

82. Sound to me very much like Trent Lott's apology: "To those of you that

offended..." So, he still thinks the C-Flag is OK (after all he said on MLK day that flying it on Gov buildings it was a states rights issue) - but sorry some are so thin skinned and got hurt by his righteous stance? Doesn't work for me, guys. Sorry!

[LuminousX]

107. Should Congress outlaw the Confederate Flag?

Or would that be a violation of the First Amendment. Dean is on record as to saying he doesn't think it should be flown, but it is a state issue. Isn't it? If you don't think it is, then why hasn't Kerry or Edwards introduced legislation to outlaw it?

[Meshuga]

109. The problem is not the fact that Dean says it's a state issue...

The problem is that Dean doesn't have a personal opinion about the flag being flown. At least the context that I read in one of the articles posted here in DU is that Dean didn't want to give his personal opinion on the matter.

[LuminousX]

117. He gave his personal opinion

He said it shouldn't be flown, but it was a state issue. Meaning, if he were in control, it wouldn't be flown, but he isn't so he can't dictate what others do.

[Meshuga]

84. Very good! That's all he needs to do...

If Dean says something that could be taken the wrong way I want him not to be stubborn or arrogant about it. The apology was the right thing to do. There is a big chance this guy is going to be the nominee and if he is I want him to have a clear message and not say anything that might bite him on the ass later on. If he is the nominee he has to beat Bush! I can't take another 4 years of monkeyboy.

What Dean said about the confederate flag can be taken in the wrong way and may sound like generalization of all poor white people in the south. Edwards and Sharpton were right in demanding an apology. Dean needed to apologize and tell people he didn't mean to sound that way he did.

CMB expressed Dean's concerns very nicely yesterday at the debate but she was smooth about it.

Dean was right, we need to address this, we eventually need to reach to these low income white people in the south. We need to show these people that Republicans are F-ing them while playing with their emotions waving whatever flags it takes. Republicans will use the American flag or any other flag to stir up emotions. That's their game.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

88. CMB is a trying not to snipe at any of the other candidates.....

and staying focus on what she has been saying from the beginning. A nice clean campaign that she is running.

[kang]

89. That's good to know that he apologized, but

he really should've done that last night. He could've diffused the whole situation by being a little less stubborn in his response to Sharpton. That's why he got burned.

I've got to say that I have lots of respect for Gov. Dean, but as a minority I do understand why there's not huge minority following. There is this "I know best" aura that he exudes and I guess it is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. But his complete failure last night to understand that it wasn't the content of his message that people disagreed with (reaching out to poor rural whites), but how he expressed that message. He said "he makes NO apology for trying to reach out to poor white America," but that wasn't what pissed people off and the fact that he didn't get that last night really pegged him as a "I don't get it" white guy in alot of people's books. Nobody think's he's a bigot, but that's not saying much. The President needs to be able to show that they're sensitive to minority viewpoints.

I think Edwards did some damage against Dean too, but I'm glad Clark took the high road and would only comment on his views of the Confederate flag and how the GOP has used divide-and-conquer tactics in the South for too long. There's no need to rip another candidate when others have already adequately pointed out the mistake.

[Padraig18]

105. Clark's response was classy!

I also like your closing line: "There's no need to rip another candidate when others have already adequately pointed out the mistake."

It's not been the criticism, per se, that disturbed nearly as much as it has been the unmitigated glee with which they have been done, plus the tag-team tactics. *That*, plus the deliberate refusal to reference what was said in context, i.e., the deliberate and malicious obtuseness, has nearly drive me to a 'Bob Boudelang moment' more than once.

:hi:

[helleborient]

110. Do you accept that Rev. Sharpton is just as clueless reaching out to...

White voters?

Very few things that Al Sharpton has ever said make me think he gets at all what it's like to be white in America. And he is filled with an "I know best" aura.

How does Howard Dean cross that line and engage African-Americans?

Or how does Sharpton go the other way?

Isn't it valuable to try and consider how to help the candidates be able to speak intelligently to the people who are not like them...instead of simply attacking when they make mistakes.

Bill Clinton seemed brilliant at addressing African-Americans and Obama here in Illinois running for the Senate seems possibly some who is brilliant going the other way...but it is a rare thing, at least so far in politics.

[mbali]

114. Most black people

know quite well what it's like to be white in America. With few exceptions, we cannot go through a single day without being immersed in a white world. We are surrounded by white culture, white views, white media, white everything. It is the rare black person who does not have substantial insight into all things white in America.

On the other hand, most white people can live their whole lives without ever having to become intimately involved in black lives or culture. Yes, most white people have had contact with blacks, even have black friends and co-workers. But, unless they really want to and make a special effort, it is quite possible for white folks to go through life with little meaningful interaction with blacks.

[mbali]

113. Well said

[ronzo]

90. He did the smart thing.

It's over as far as I'm concerned.

[Zynx]

92. I bet some of the anti-Dean people who wanted him to apologize will accuse

him of waffling. I'm willing to bet serious money.

[ronzo]

95. Here.

You won't hear it from me, though... He did the right thing.

[robbedvoter]

98. I accuse him of not apologizing: "I was right, sorry you didn't like it"

is not a real apology. I wouldn't take it on a personal level and I won't accept it
on an issue such as the C-Flag. It's patronizing arrogance, rather than outright arrogance.

[mbali]

112. I'm not assuaged by

an "apology" that says he's sorry that those of us who don't understand what he was trying to say were offended.

Hey, poor, misunderstood Gov. Dean - We're not stupid or naive. The problem is not that I and many others don't understand what you're trying to say. The problem is that many of us understand EXACTLY what you're trying to say and we find it offensive.

Patronizing arrogance is right. And the sad thing is that he STILL doesn't get it.

[DemBones DemBones]

125. Yeah, what would we know?

You're black, I'm a white Southerner -- how would we know if Dean's comments insulted blacks or white Southerners?

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Mass_Liberal]

103. thats bad

when Dean said he had no apologies for his correct statement he was right. Anyone that didn't take what he said out of context could tell what he was saying. Nobody would have cared if Edwards and Sharpton weren't trying to take a swing at Dean anyway they could. When he apologizes, it makes it look like a scandal instead of an issue. The only people that could be offended by that are those that didn't understand the comment.


Peace

[LuminousX]

104. Now people say 'it wasn't a good enough apology'

[helleborient]

108. Did you really expect anything he said...

Would be good enough for his opposition?

It wouldn't have been accepted if he had apologized yesterday.

Everyone is too eager for red meat...and bringing up anything with emotional baggage attached sets out the wolves.

I am really sorry we can't talk about the Confederate flag as a nation without launching warfare on each other. It does say something about us as a nation, I think.

South Africa is able to talk about apartheid, a reality a few scant years ago. Our country still can't talk about the Civil War which happened 140 years ago.

[LuminousX]

116. Truth and Reconciliation

Perhaps we should have a Truth and Reconciliation Committee to allow us to get beyond the point that if someone mentions the confederate flag, they are somehow condoning its use.

[helleborient]

128. If nothing else...

3 things that are uppermost in my mind when I think about the fallout of the Civil War.

Northern and Southern families alike suffered tremendously in the loss of military life during the War

Southern families suffered tremendously with some aspects of imposed Reconstruction after the death of Lincoln

African-American families suffered tremendously during Reconstruction as well


It really is not easy for anyone to get over deaths in the family, crushing poverty, and terrorism.

[LuminousX]

118. I hope

For those attacking Dean, I really hope you are being honest with yourselves. If you are attacking him for political reasons, at least don't delude yourself that he is a racist. I have noted a subtle shift over the past day that people are now saying they KNOW he isn't racist, he is just arrogant. Again, please be aware of the damage you are doing. I don't condemn people for the campaigning, for the efforts to knock the other guy out. That is what this is all about. I just don't want people to be doing this kind of damage to the party unintentionally.

If you are attacking Dean because you honestly, truthfully feel in your heart that what he did was plain wrong, then God bless you and keep fighting the good fight. At the end of the day, you only are as good as the causes you fight for. Which means, if you are pushing a lie for political gain, it will come back to haunt you.