Dean lied on CNN this morning. Said he wanted a discussion about race.

[blm]

Except that's not what he was doing when he made his statement about the Confederate flag holders to the Des Moines reporter. He was answering a query about the NRA and Dean's longtime support for their positions.

Now Dean and his supporters are trying to hoodwink the public by saying he was trying to start a discussion about race and just did it clumsily.

I agree he was clumsy, but, why lie about the actual point he was making at the time and the reason for his answer?

[deutsey]

1. Well, when Dean first raised the issue back in February

it was within the context of race in the South:

Gov. Howard Dean's speech to the Democratic National Committee
February 21, 2003, Washington, D.C.
. . .
Let me tell you something else I'm going to do. One of the things I thought
was terrific about Bill Clinton was that when he became President in 1992, he
said that his Cabinet would look like the rest of America -- and he did it. He
did it.

I want all of our institutions of higher learning, - our law schools, our
medical schools, our best universities - to look like the rest of America. I
thought that one of the most despicable moments of this President's
Administration
was three weeks ago when, on national prime time television, he used the word
"quotas" seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas,
has never had quotas, and "quota" is a race-loaded word designed to appeal to
people's fears of losing their jobs.

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The
Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm
going
to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive
pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting
with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids
need better schools too.

[caledesi]

75. Thank you Deut. This is what Dean said folks!! nt

[DemBones DemBones]

185. I know what Dean said. It was offensive then, too, when I first

heard it. See my post # 184 below for more.

[blm]

80. But, he said that THESE Remarks were about race when they were NOT.

The whole article is about the NRA and gun control, and NOWHER does Dean mention race relations. NOWHERE.

Now...Nowhere does Dean say he was talking about the NRA when he made the remark. NOW, Dean says he was talking about race relations. That is not true.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

131. The flap was about his remarks LAST WEEK, and NOT Feb.

His remarks last week using the conflag was in support of his NRA stance.

Today he said that he made a clumsy attempt to discuss race relations. Pure baloney.

Twist it where you can, but the facts remain the same.

[mzmolly]

157. The flap was about Sharpton being an opportunist and Jesse Jackson Jr.

not supporting him in lieu of Dean. The flap was about using the Confederate Flag as a metaphor for bringing in poor/white southerners to the democratic party. That's what it was about.

[blm]

158. So Dean lied when he used it in regard to his NRA support?

He really didn't mean what he SAID?

HAHAH. That was YOUR flap. Dean's lie was that HE was talking about race relations, when he was REALLY defending his NRA position.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

170. Lies are about falsehood and intent. Not how people vote.

The ends do not justify the means.

[polpilot]

2. Dean admits to currently owning 14 slaves and wearing confed. flag

panties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dean...Rebel with a Cause

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

5. Right, just say you had your heart in the right place but

it came out wrong.

I don't care if he wants to be the representative of the CF drivin pickup ownin white folk. They need representation. I however won't be one to support him while he's representing them. I believe it is a non issue because he can ask for support and give support to whomever he wants. But once he makes it known...on something like that I can't look @ him as a candidate for me.

It's like when you go to a restaurant. You don't see the kitchen and the staff looks clean and healthy. But once they open the kitchen door and you get a look or you see a rat or a roach in the dining room that's it. I can't eat here any more. Keep your dirty laundry, roaches and rats where I can't see them we can keep going. Show me the nasty stuff then I gotta get a goin. No matter how you clean up, it is under new management, apologize, give me a free meal whatever. Our relationship is O-V-E-R.

[helleborient]

16. So we should remain a nation of people who can't work together?

There are segments of the population you have decided you will never ever ever work with?

This does sadden me.

And the comparison of people to rats and roaches...wow!

[AP]

21. I was eating at a restaurant once... I walked into the bathroom.

I saw my watiress cleaing the toilettes.

That was the last time I ate there.

[wtmusic]

6. Oh please

So you've bought in to the whole GOP-Confederate flag twist, huh?

I will be the first to admit, BLM, you have come up with some great posts but the idea that 'Dean and his supporters are trying to hoodwink the public' is...silly.

[blm]

13. Then why did he lie about the reason for his remarks?

He was answering a query about his relationship with the NRA, and not about race.

I know he misspoke and didn't mean to any racist intent. I'm not on that bandwagon, however, he did lie about what he was discussing at the time, and it sure as hell wasn't about race relations. He said this morning that he was trying to discuss race relations. Why is he lying about the reason for his remarks?

[wtmusic]

45. OK, then

can we have a QUOTE of what he said or do we have to rely on your paraphrase? Since you're clearly anti-Dean it's impossible to put much stock in your interpretation.

[blm]

69. It's been linked here alot, but, here ya go again....

 

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[wtmusic]

74. Gotta do better than that

I was asking about a quote from CNN this morning. And:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Just where, pray tell, is there any reference to the NRA or guns for that matter?


Weak.

[blm]

79. The article is all about the NRA and gun control.

How could you miss it?

As far as CNN goes, Dean has been making this new point that he spoke clumsily while making an effort to discuss race relations since the Rock the Vote forum, his speech the next day at Cooper-Union and every show he's been on since. Please don't pretend you haven't noticed.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

10. To all of you - Dean LIED about WHY he brought it up to the reporter.

He was talking about the NRA vote he wanted to attract, NOT the race issue. Why did he lie and why are you supporting that fiction?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

18. Can I have a real answer to why Dean lied about his remarks?

brIe.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

24. Why do you call it a "fixation"

Why's it a psychological problem?

Why isn't this a political problem?

[Patriot_Spear]

28. I accept his comments at face value- apparently you cannot...

The problem is yours- I'm sstisfied with his answer on the whole fake, republican trumped up 'confederate' issue.

We talked about it last night at the meet-up; the consensus was that Dean's opponents are grasping at ANYTHING in order to attack him.

It's pathetic, really.

[blm]

39. But that doesn't deal with the FACT that Dean SWITCHED the reason

for his remarks.

Did any of you even bring up the FACT that Dean was talking about his support for the NRA at the time he made the comment? Did the FACT that he SWITCHED the reason to be about a desire to talk about race relations even come up?

Crooked talk from a crooked talker.

[AP]

47. My point is, why is this an issue of psychology rather than policy?

Would you like it if I talked about your meet up in terms of psychology?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

38. You have a very good point

Dean supporters shouldn't respond or fight against the attacks being made. Of course, the attackers will just say that THAT is arrogance. If you do respond, you are being thin-skinned. If you present a valid explanation, you are just buying into the media/Dean spin.

[blm]

44. No...just answer why Dean lied about the reason for his remark

when it was about the NRA and NOT about his concerns for race relations.

[lastliberalintexas]

12. You might want to edit your subject line

Unfortunately, blm can wrongly accuse Dean of lying all she wants, but you can't call her on it. At least not by using the word lie. Or so I've seen other posts deleted for it. :shrug:

[seventhson]

23. BLM asked the question "why lie" I respond to the question with her words

my subject line is in response to that question. I am not accusing BLM of lying. I am answering a question with a question.

"Why lie?"

Dean wasn't lying.

Perhaps it was ambiguous but it was not meant to say BLM lied it was meant to respond to the question and it was addressed to BLM.

[lastliberalintexas]

26. I personally didn't have a problem with your wording

I'd much prefer to be able to call it like we see it. Your post was a good one, and I didn't want it to get deleted. I see what you did, though, so hopefully you'll be ok.

[blm]

35. Then why did he say it was about race and not about the NRA?

Can you explain why he said his remarks were because he wanted to discuss race relations, when he was answering a reporter about his longtime support for the NRA and its positions?

[seventhson]

46. Dean has used this phrase in many speeches on many issues NOT NRA

issues only.

The first issue is getting poor southern whites who display their confederate flag to vote Dem

second is to convince them it is in their best interests to vote dem

third was in the context of education and health care

so maybe he mentioned it in the context of people who are NRA members(like Michael Moore for example) and who are law abiding citizens who hunt for survival or sustenance. The gun rack crews with confederate flags.

Who Cares?

We need their votes too.

[blm]

50. But why does he lie NOW and say he was trying to discuss race relations

when the reporter was talking to him about his support for the NRA? He was NOT discussing race relations at the time.

Why didn't he tell the truth and say he was discussing his support for the NRA when he made the remark? Why make up another reason?

[blm]

67. lastliberalintexas...here's what Dean was talking about

when he made the remark. Notice that he WASN'T trying to start a discussion about race. Can you please explain how you concluded that I am the one lying and not Dean.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views


By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[Duder]

8. I'd respond but...

I'm busy trying to find the poll that Kerry said he saw where he's leading Hillary Clinton by 15 points.

No luck so far...

[MercutioATC]

15. Must have been an "inside" poll...

Teresa polled the house staff....

[pruner]

9. you must really be feeling threatened about the impending SEIU endorsement

:hurts:

[Octafish]

62. SEIU's a great union. I wish they knew more about Sen. Kerry.

I'm sure if they knew how he's actually DONE something on their behalf, they would endorse him. They also would be more likely to endorese Sen. Kerry if they knew how he has actually gone after the BFEE — GOOGLE Kerry's name and Ollie North and Iran-Contra + drug running and/or BCCI for thousands of hits and examples.

Firefighters know about Sen. Kerry. They endorsed him.

[Padraig18]

98. Why is it that...

.... every time Kerry fails to secure an endorsement, his supporters always say "I just wish they knew more about Sen. Kerry?", the implication being obvious. Does it ever occur to you guys that maybe they *do* know about him, and still choose to give their endorsement to another candidate because they like that other candidate better? Sheesh! :eyes:

[Octafish]

11. 7 to 1.

In just 10 minutes, seven pro-Dean people posted. I see a couple actually addressed what Dean said. Thanks, Dwayne!

For what it's worth: I don't believe blm is anti-Dean, per se. More than anything, blm wants to kick the Little Turd out of the Oval Office and back to the pig farm in Crawford.

[blm]

17. I only ask Why did Dean lie and say he was talking about race relations

when he was talking about his support for the NRA and its positions?

[MercutioATC]

29. I only ask why YOU won't admit that he's been using this language for

months in the context of dealing with race relations.

It's very easy to take a bizarre and misleading stand on an issue and splash it all over a message board. I could easily post a couple of dozen "Kerry LIES!!!" threads citing one statement of his. I'll illustrate:

"Kerry LIES about hunting: says he needs to hunt to "put food on the table."

"Kerry shows his insensivity by saying that killing animals "doesn't matter" because they're going to be killed anyway."

"Kerry makes fun of the poor: jokes about the difficulty of feeding families."

"Kerry supports the Congo warlords: they both "eat what they kill"."

Do any of these statements bear the slightest merit? Of course not (though I am slightly proud of the last one). Could I post them here with relative impunity? Of course.

My point is that Dean has been using this language to highlight the need for a couple of things: 1) a dialogue about race relations that's not afraid to speak plainly and 2) the need for all of us to realize that our common needs outweigh our differences. To claim that he's "lying" because he brought the issue up in a discussion about his NRA endorsements is silly. Worse, it's dishonest.

[blm]

36. Dean has been using it for months. But THIS time was about the NRA

and his support for their positions.

Can you answer why he switched his reason for the remarks he made to the Des Moines reporter? And why do you switch his remarks about the NRA to a discussion about race relations?

[MercutioATC]

41. Because it's all part of the same issue: how to address the issues of the

South. It's not a matter of him "switching" his reasons. To most of us, it all falls under the same umbrella. I can understand if you have a different view, but to simply jump to a "Dean lied" stance (and post it repeatedly) seems to reflect more of your anti-Dean bias than a legitimate question on his statements.

[blm]

61. Then why didn't he say so at the time?

He didn't bring up race relations with the reporter asking him about the NRA and today he didn't bring up the point he was making about the NRA when he said he was actually trying to discuss race relations. Gee...if he's such a straight talker, why do people have to connect all these points for him in defense? Why didn't he come out and tell the story STRAIGHT - EXACTLY as it came about?

[MercutioATC]

97. You seem to be the only person who had trouble understanding this.

I've not heard ONE other person who thought there was any issue here.

[blm]

133. The flag symbolism took over

and the fact that Dean LIED about why he said it SHOULD be alarming, since it's a blatant lie ON CAMERA and will be used against him eventually.

Deanies are giving it a so what review, same as the GOP does for Bush. The difference is that during the general election the lies from Dean will then be MAGINIFIED by the GOP and their media.

[MercutioATC]

149. I guess you're just more preternaturally perceptive than the rest of us...

If this is the best the Dean detractors can come up with, I'm a very happy man...

[blm]

159. The truth is the best weapon. Unfortunately for the Dem party

Rove will play Dean's lying words OVER AND OVER again, 40 times a day, EVERY DAY for months. I'm sure they'll use a wonderful shot of Dean in the background while his words are being played. Then they'll show him ON CAMERA lying about his reasons.

[LuminousX]

34. To Dean it is all part of his southern campaign

it is all tied together.

[blm]

43. Was Dean honest about the reason for his remark?

No. He switched it. You're covering up for the FACT that he was remarking on his support for the NRA, and not talking at ALL about his concern for race relations.

[LuminousX]

48. Yes, he was being honest

Because he doesn't see thing divided up into neat little categories. It all flows together.

Oops, I'm sorry, I forgot. Dean is not to be defended. You are correct. He is a liar. The only excuse for his lying is he is hoping to dupe his way into office where he will rape and pillage the country. Actually, that is just another lie, his hope is to dupe the Democrats to nominate him and then he'll urinate on the constitution to make sure Bush gets another four years.

Dean definately creates pathological behavior in people. DU should stand for Dean Underground. All Dean all the time.

[blm]

53. Why use hyperbole? Why not admit Dean switched his reasons?

He answered a question about his support for the NRA.

His clumsy reply got him in trouble.

He SWITCHED the reason for his remarks to be an effort to discuss race relations.

The pathology here are the supporters who cannot admit that Dean switched his reasons for his remarks and attack the person noticing the truth.

[LuminousX]

63. Because he didn't

He sees the issue as a whole not as little parts. What did he say in Florida? "Guns, God, race, and gays." To him it is all discussed together.

[blm]

66. Then why didn't he connect them at the time?

The NRA remark did not bring up race relations in that interview and his excuse now that he was "discussing race relations" did not bring up the NRA reason for his remark.

The ONLY people connecting the two now are his defenders. Why not demand STRAIGHT talk from your hallowed straight talker?

[LuminousX]

68. Jesus, the man is answering questions left and right

he does a great job staying on message but he can't be 100% all the time.

[blm]

71. Sorry, L__X, this was ALL about the NRA, not about race.

Please point out to me Dean's efforts to start a "discussion about race relations." 


http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[Octafish]

54. Going by the responses, they are doing what Dean does...

... ignore the question and misunderstand the issue. It does not give me great confidence of Dean's chances, should he be the nominee. And should he be the nominee and win in the general election, his administration would be a marked improvement over Bush, but it would be a mere shadow of the great things that could be in the Presidencies of several of the other Democratic candidates.

[lastliberalintexas]

22. Because

race, guns and God are all tied together in the South. Maybe if your guy understood that, he'd be doing better down here than polling in single digits.

And as deutsy pointed out, this has been a line Dean has used in various campaign stump speeches. In the context of those speeches, he has talked about how these people are marginalized based on one or two issues so that they vote repub- and those issues are usually race and/or guns. Understanding the Southern repub voter and knowing what issued they hold near and dear are the first steps to winning them over. Sorry that you don't seem to understand that.

Course, I actually think you do understand- you seem to be a very intelligent person. So I can only assume that this is intentional obtuseness on your part and a refusal to look at what was said, rather than parsing a select quote from a candidate you loathe.

[helleborient]

25. It is politics...point out a politician who doesn't stretch the truth...

And I'll be more concerned about your post...and I might vote for the one who doesn't stretch the truth. We don't have any of the 9 candidates who don't sometimes stretch the truth, in my opinion.

Accusations that carried implications that Dean is racist were disingenuous if not outright lies as well..particularly since a number of accusers backed off and said we know he's not racist.

I do believe Howard Dean has been trying to open up dialogue about race in this campaign for a long time - he said it when he spoke here in Chicago - he said it un-artfully when he implied other candidates were not talking about...whether or not exactly in that specific incidence with the reporter. I'm not sure he completely remembers exactly what he was being asked when that question came out. I think when he initially said it he really didn't think it would ignite a firestorm of controversy...because it didn't the first time he said it - it garnered applause. Why not repeat an applause line?

I do think most of us run around everyday with sort of an opinion that we're fine where we are personally about race, so it's not a big issue we need to devote much time to. Howard Dean has put many of us in an uncomfortable place in talking about...which I think is great, because it's usually when we feel uncomfortable that we actually start to look for solutions and ways to resolve issues. It sometimes actually results in healing instead of just continued festering underneath.

Bill Clinton was right that we need national dialogue about race - Bush and the Republicans have shut it down, because they know too well their weaknesses.

I'm very dismayed that some of the other Democratic candidates are trying to shut it down now to gain political advantage.

[AP]

30. You're kidding, right? Who's trying to shut down a discussion about race?

Dean is making people uncomfortable because he makes it sounds like white people are the only victims of racism, and that he's not too concerned about the black experience of racism.

As for stretching the truth, being acceptable. The problem is that if Dean thinks that what he does is 'talking about race' then it's worth discussing whether we like what he's saying.

[helleborient]

40. Most of what I heard from other candidates...

Was shut up and apologize...we don't like what you're saying...and we don't think you know anything about the subject.

How is that promoting conversation?


I really don't believe there is a single person in this entire country who doesn't have something of potential value to bring to a conversation about race.

Telling people to shut up and apologize does nothing to promote them bringing forth their experience or perspective. It is not a conversation starter.

[AP]

52. They were talking about race more than Dean was

and "shut up" cannot be inferred from "please apologize".

That's just spin.

YOu need to go back to the spin drawing board.

[helleborient]

58. Can "shut up" be inferred from...

"We don't need someone like you coming down here telling us what to do..."?

[AP]

90. Asking someone not to be an uninformed anthropoligist of

southern culture is not the same thing as asking someone to shut up about race.

Since Edwards doesn't shut up about race, and since he doesn't criticize Sharpton, who's a New Yorker, when Sharpton talks about race and class and gender in the south, I think it's safe to say Edwards isn't telling anyone to shut up.

[AP]

27. Another thing about dean wanting to have a discussion about race...

...in the debate, the person who asked the question wanted to know what Dean had to say to African Americans. His response was to say all the good things he wanted to do for poor white people who waive the confederate flag. This is an error of ommission, rather than commission. Great that he wants to help poor people. However, when asked what he had to say to black people, he told us what he wanted to say to white people, or, more broadly, he talked about and focused on white people.

And this isn't unlike his conference call when he talked about how he stood up to anti- white male discrimination in his office when he was asked about race.

[MercutioATC]

32. I didn't hear that at all...

I heard him say that he wanted southern white, Confererate flag waving, pickup truck driving southerners to realize that their needs were the same as southern blacks and they should stand together for their common good.

What did he "omit" here? He said that the best way to realize our common goals is for "black and white and brown" people to all vote together. Seems pretty simple to me.

[mbali]

72. He omitted the part

where he tells black folks how we're supposed to benefit from his becoming the candidate of Confederate decal sportin' southern white folks.

Not surprising. He never seems to get around to us in any of his discussions about race.

[helleborient]

42. Help us with a link or an actual quote here...

It sounds like an unfounded accusation so far.

[AP]

51. Here you go

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64721-2003Nov4.html

Notice that, in his answer, he mentions black people twice (as "sons of slave holders" and as "black and brown" people), and he mentions white people many times (8 or more times).


QUESTION: My question is for Governor Dean.

I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended.

Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?

(APPLAUSE)

DEAN: Sure. Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good.

There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it.

They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party.

[helleborient]

56. Clearly you interpret it differently...

I heard that he was wanting to turn the corner on having the "public good" be focused with one plan for white people and one plan for black people.

He was looking forward to people working together for the common good...a powerful dream shared by Martin Luther King, Jr. This did not omit black people at all.

Rev. Al Sharpton said those who display a Confederate flag should be banned from the table entirely...this seems to be a candidate stating groups of people should be ommitted from the picture.

[AP]

81. Subjectively, yes. However, objectively,

he was asked a question about what he had to say to black people, and he uses the term "white" or "they" or some other reference to white people at least 8 times in his answer, and then refers to black people only twice, and those two references are both in sentences where he talks about black and white people. There is little in that message to which a black person might think, "yeah, he's talking directly to me about how I experience America.

Compare that to Edwards's statement about race at that AZ debate. He said, I lived in Robbins when I was little. Today, Robbins is half latino and mostly immigrants. Those immigrants came to Robbins for the same reason my father went to Robbins -- so his family could have a better future. I want those people to have the same opportunities I had. The audience really warmly embraced that message because they saw themselves in the people Edwards was describing.

I don't know if you get that same message in what Dean was describing if you aren't white. That's my subjective opinion.

[mbali]

106. Dean's utter failure

to in any way address that young man's question or to indicate to him that he had even the remotest sense of the concerns that he expressed said much more than all of his rhetoric about race ever could.

[DemBones DemBones]

152. Agreed. This is such an important point and I am

surprised it hasn't been addressed by the press/ media.

How does a man who couldn't -- or wouldn't -- answer that question think that he can lead the country in a serious discussion of race?

We know Howard had black roommates. Maybe he should have tried having black friends instead.

[NJGeek]

33. At least he has some cohones

First, he admitted he had a lapse in judgement in his communication, something Bush would never do.

Second, he isn't afraid to say what every one knows, viz. southern poor white families have every much reason to vote Democrat as any urban or coastal individual, that is the Democrats represent their core concerns the best.

He is absolutely right is saying to the South what amounts to 'don't let the Republican spin machine trick you into thinking that Gods, guns, race, and sexuality trump your economic imperatives."

What other candidate has a direct message like that? NONE. STOP BASHING DEAN AND GET BEHIND HIM OR YOU WILL SEE BUSH FOR FOUR MORE YEARS, WHICH NONE OF US WANT.

[blm]

37. He's NOT direct. He lied about WHY he made the remark.

He was answering a query about his longtime support for the NRA and its positions. Why is he now saying he was trying to talk about race relations?

[seventhson]

49. DUHHH!!! Because there is a larger context it was NO LIE.

Dean's course has been to address this issue in the larger context of race relations and the IDEAL that we can work together whether we are southern whites with confederate decals or young urban hipsters with dreadlocks.


and no matter how you spin it Kerry is looking more feeble and desperate and awful and even racist with every post by his sympathizers who want to use race to divide the dems and disenfranchise African Americans and the hip youth.

It won't work.

People who care see right through this bullshit.

More power to Dean: the People's candidate!

[billbuckhead]

57. 2 South Americans take on Dean and the Confederate flag

"Why are the Democrats running a racist for President?" one of my colleagues from Brazil asked. I said they aren't, that Dean wasn't really a racist, just trying to get their votes. This guy is a very sophisticated immigrant of 10 years in the US, but he is confused by all this. He hates Bush at least as much as any of do but is now confused about the Democrats. At that time our Venezuelan colleague jumped in and said "Billy , you always say the Democrats are the good guys, but this sounds just like politicians anywhere, liars and....." He shrugged his shoulders and said something about politics don't seem to make things better. Both these are Americans citizens in Georgia who are now skeptical about voting for the Democrats. I'll get them back, but I would like to have Howard Dean talk to them so he can apologize to them and the Democratic party for confusing one and confirming the others cynicism.

[MercutioATC]

59. Did you not see his apology this morning?

Personally, I'd have rather he didn't apologize, but I guess I can live with it. I simply don't see where the problem lies. It's fact that it's in everybody's best interest for southern whites (regardless of flag-flying activities) and southern blacks to realize that their common need outweigh their differences. Saying that is the exact kind of blunt message of inclusion that we need, IMHO.

[helleborient]

60. Have them read the Cooper Union speech...

He explains himself very well.

[blm]

65. Then why didn't he say it straight? He didn't bring up race

to the reporter when he was made the remark while talking about the NRA, and he didn't bring up the NRA in his excuse about wanting to discuss race relations with his remark.

Gee...you can't see the disconnect? YOU and others are left defending muddled reasoning and what SHOULD be straight talk from the straight talker?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

124. Dean said it THIS MORNING.

You want to accept the lie, that's your choice.

Republicans do it all the time with Bush's lies and seem to be quite happy. Enjoy.

[clarknyc]

164. How do you know?

"Then why didn't he say it straight? He didn't bring up race to the reporter when he was made the remark while talking about the NRA, and he didn't bring up the NRA in his excuse about wanting to discuss race relations with his remark."

Were you there with the reporter? Do you know the full range of the interview that was distilled down to the one Dean quote in the article? Without a transcript, I don't think you really have a case.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

171. Dean gave an interview in response to Kerry's attack on his gun position

and in the context of that interview, said
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks",
and we are supposed to believe this was his way of starting a dialogue about race? Because that's what he says as part of his damage control?

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

What happened was Kerry attacked, and forced a gaffe from Dean, which blew up more than anyone probably thought it would, especially after Dean's arrogant, abrasive performance at Rock the Vote.

And Dean was forced to eat crow.

What was the big headline? DEAN APOLOGIZES

I guess in Hollywood there is no such thing as bad publicity. Is that true in politics?

What will Dean's next blunder be?

[mbali]

182. Dean's idea of straight talk on race

is talking about what we need to do for white folks. And not only does he not know the difference between talking to white people about race or convincing racists that it's in their best interests to vote for him on the one hand and addressing concerns of minorities on the other, he apparently assumes that none of us do either. Why else would he think that we would really buy his attempt to turn a careless and sloppy effort to reach out to white bigots, made in the context of a discussion of the NRA, into a noble provocation of dialogue on race in America?

[blm]

180. The interview was about the NRA.

Dean was answering questions about his stance on gun control.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."


http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm."We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

  

[clarknyc]

183. Nice nonresponse.

Let's try this again:

Were you there with the reporter? Do you know the full range of the interview that was distilled down to the one Dean quote in the article? Without a transcript, I don't think you really have a case.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

187. Let's try this again:

Were you there when Cheney and his energy cronies wrote our nation's energy policies? Maybe they were really talking about foreign policy... or recycling... without a transcript it would be silly to assume they were just talking about energy policy. :eyes:

Responding to a question about his gun policy, Dean said ""I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks"

if you want to believe that Dean was really initiating a dialog about race, you are welcome to believe that.

And if you want to believe the moon is made of green cheese, you are welcome to believe that.

[mbali]

191. Does anyone have any doubt that

if Dean had been misquoted or quoted out of context, he'd be bleating like a stuck pig about it?

His very silence confirms that he was indeed talking about exactly what the reporter said he was talking about.

[paulk]

55. I don't think Dean lied; per se

In his own mind he was referring to statements he'd made before, not his statement to the Des Moines Register. Whether the media will be as forgiving to Dean as he is to himself remains to be seen.

Dean, even by his own admission, can be a clumsy speaker, with a real penchant for putting his foot in his mouth. Perhaps this won't hurt him in the long run; it certainly hasn't hurt Bush - it really depends on how the press decides to portray him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

76. Agree, it's more like damage control spin

to say Dean's lying makes it seem devious. The fact is Dean's thoughts were not clearly connected to the answer. Although I guess the fact he's trying to spin it now as his attempt at opening a "race dialogue" is less than genuine.
It's trying to put the best light on a less than shining moment.

[blm]

82. But, Dean KNEW he was talking about the NRA. He now says

it was an effort to discuss race relations. Sorry...but that is a lie. There is NOTHING about race relations in that article or Dean's remarks.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

88. You're right that Dean was talking about the NRA

he's spinning the best face on it now. I see also where you can call it a lie. Some say spin, others say lie. Either way it's not an accurate account of the original context of the interview in DesMoines.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

70. I agree with you to a point

I would feel more comfortable if I felt that was true. Unfortunately, I fear that most of the people posting these things about Dean actually believe them and don't realize it is just campaigning.

If they want to use the "Candidate X is a liar" tactic, that is great and more power to them. It worked against Gore. It is a tried and proven tactic. I just hope they don't forget that it is just a tactic and not a reality.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helleborient]

77. Except...it's not a Dean Supporter...

Although would be the first with a welcome back to the fold...

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. The fact is Dean's comment was in the context of defending his NRA support

Here is the article that stirred the controversy:

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

Now you are claiming that blm's post:

Except that's not what he was doing when he made his statement about the Confederate flag holders to the Des Moines reporter. He was answering a query about the NRA and Dean's longtime support for their positions.

Now Dean and his supporters are trying to hoodwink the public by saying he was trying to start a discussion about race and just did it clumsily.

I agree he was clumsy, but, why lie about the actual point he was making at the time and the reason for his answer?

is a lie.


Well we can all see who is telling the truth here and who is lying.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. So what. He lied about THIS occasion.

Accept it already.

[blm]

94. He lied about the reason for his remark THIS MORNING.

We're supposed to look the other way when he lies, just like the Bush loyalists do?

[mzmolly]

100. Bullshit, you can't have it both ways either the Confederate flag is a

symbol of racism or not. PERIOD, end of story.

[blm]

114. What are you talking about? Dean was referring to NRA support

when he made the comment, yet everyone is now saying it was about his effort to discuss race relations. I want to know WHY Dean said now that he was discussing race when he was really talking about the NRA and not race at the time?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

122. Dean apologized for his remark. He finally gets it: it was wrong.

So why are you still defending the remark Dean has repudiated?

[mzmolly]

126. Dean repudiated it after people like you were told you should be offended

by people like Sharpton (who is pissed about JJ Jr.s endorsing Dean) and people like Edwards (who is trying to beat Dean in SC). Once people were told to be offended, they were and he apologized as he should have.

Why are YOU changing the subject?

[mbali]

130. And who is telling "people like YOU"

that you shouldn't be offended?

[mzmolly]

167. I figured that out for myself, along with those that gave Dean a standing

ovation at the DNC convention in February of 2003.

I've posted the 'offensive' speech below.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5134

[mbali]

179. I see -

So because you and a roomful of people weren't offended by something that Dean said in back in February, that means that everyone who was offended by different comments he made last week are being led around by the nose by Al Sharpton.

And you wonder why the rest of us believe that "people like you" have been sucked into a cult.

[mzmolly]

186. Dean made the comments on several occasions

and they slipped right over the heads of the newly offended.

Go figure. :eyes:

The only cult I see is made up of "Dean haters." People who resent Dean's success while they watch their candidates fade into the sunset. People who twist every statement the man makes into something evil or heinus. That is the cult, and you'll find most of 'them' here in this thread.

Oh, by the way...I realize Dean is a 'human' and is being capable of error. *gasp*

[Feanorcurufinwe]

188. So Dean has repeatedly made this insensitive, divisive comment.

That is somehow supposed to make it better?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

177. If I believed you really thought I was being told what to think

I'd be offended. As far as changing the subject, the subject is, Dean mischaracterization, spin, damage control, lie, whatever you want to call it, that this was some noble effort on his part to start a discussion about race. What is was was a stupid, insensitive comment that he said when he was on the defensive about his NRA support.

And the spin doesn't really seem like such positive spin anyway, -- if it were true, is this the best we can expect from Dean when he tries to initiate a dialogue? I would lol except it isn't funny.

[DemBones DemBones]

184. I was offended when I first heard Dean say it in February.

I don't need a candidate or a candidate's blog to tell me what to think.

I was surprised that the issue died with little controversay, but people were distracted by impending war. And Howard has a problem with "misspeaking" so I didn't make an issue of it at the time. Until his recent comment appeared in the Des Moines Register, I didn't realize that he had been repeating his damn fool statement in speeches ever since. I learned that here from his zealous supporters who couldn't understand why he was being called to task now when he'd been saying it in speeches for months. The answer is that most people aren't following his campaign the way zealous supporters are and that the media gives Dean a lot of attention, rarely any attention to his faults. This time it made the papers.

The way the corporate-controlled media has boosted his campaign is proof to me that a Dean administration would be more of the same that we've been seeing -- pamper the big boys and screw the rest of us. But he'd tell us "You have the power!" Sorry, I'm not buying that.

[helleborient]

89. Very very very brief history lesson....

Woodrow Wilson lied when he said we would stay out of World War I

George Bush, Sr. lied when he said he wouldn't raise taxes

Bill Clinton lied when he said he would support a complete overturn of the policy on gays in the military

Howard Dean technically lied when he said mentioning Confederate flags to a reporter was talking about race...even though all of his opponents claimed that the problem with mentioning the flag was injecting race into the campaign. How do you inject race into the campaign without talking about race??

If he wasn't talking about race, then John Edwards, John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, and Al Sharpton were all lying when they said he was injecting race into the campaign by mentioning the Confederate battle flag.


Your standard of honesty and telling no lies is pretty darn technical, don't you think? I suppose you would have thrown Bill Clinton out on his ear as President, and certainly wouldn't have wanted Woodrow Wilson's 17 Points and advocation of a League Of Nations.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. In other words, you admit Dean is a liar, but you think it's OK?

[helleborient]

92. I admit that every politician I have ever known....

Could be technically accused of lying.

Howard Dean is a politician.

Wesley Clark is now a politician.

Dennis Kucinich is a politician.

John Kerry is a politician.

Al Sharpton is a politician.

Carol Mosley Braun is a politician.

Joe Lieberman is a politician.

Dick Gephardt is a politician.

John Edwards is a politician.

And by the narrow definition of being a liar put forth in this thread, the whole bunch of them are guilty of being liars.

[helleborient]

93. Now answer my question...I played fair...

Would you have thrown Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton out as president since they were liars?

Or were their lies tolerable...and if so, why?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

95. In the '92 primaries

I did not support Clinton because I thought he was untrustworthy.

Wilson was a little before my time.

We are in the primary season now. Selecting a Democratic nominee for the Presidency.

[helleborient]

96. You didn't answer the question...but that's fine.

I'll move on.

I know you don't support Dean...I know I do...neither of us will convince the other, I'm quite sure.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

99. Are we required to answer each other's questions? Answer this:

Why does Dean have such a hard time telling the truth?

[mzmolly]

101. He doesn't (there's an answer)

:hi:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

105. Should I document all the times Dean has lied in the campaign for you?

I'm a little tired of pointing out the obvious, but if you want to insist that Dean is an honest person, I will be happy to prove otherwise.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

112. So, you are unwilling to face the truth? OK

"You can't handle the truth!"

[helleborient]

108. To be constructive...I think you would do best working hard for your

candidate. It's obviously not Howard Dean, so your candidate is obviously behind. Your candidate needs you to promote a positive image.

Meetups really are fun...why not find a meetup for your candidate and distribute flyers, talk to voters, write letters, etc.

Or do you prefer to wallow in candidate destruction?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

113. If Dean can't take the heat he should get out of the kitchen.

[helleborient]

103. I suppose you should ask him....

I don't have concerns about truth-telling with Dean, and I don't attempt to speak for him.

Go on the blog...or go on the online chats and ask your question. That's my suggestion.

As far as answering questions, I willingly answered your question of me, so I just thought you might answer one from me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

178. I already did answer your question

you asked:

"Would you have thrown Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton out as president since they were liars?

Or were their lies tolerable...and if so, why?"

and I answered:

"In the '92 primaries I did not support Clinton because I thought he was untrustworthy.

Wilson was a little before my time.

We are in the primary season now. Selecting a Democratic nominee for the Presidency."

And I guess I need to spell it out a little plainer for you:


We are now engaged in a primary contest for the Democratic nomination. Just as was going on in '92 between Clinton, Tsongas, Brown etc. So that is a situation that can be compared to this one. Dean is not the President. We are not talking about "throwing someone out" we are talking about whether to vote for them. And no I didn't vote for Clinton in the primaries in '92.

[blm]

102. They said his USE of the flag was wrong

because of its to appeal to racists. The remarks in regard to the NRA, however were spun by Dean and Dean alone.

[mzmolly]

104. Here it is in context...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/06/elec04.prez.dean.flag/index.html

"Dean said he used poor judgment in what was a sincere attempt to signal his effort to bring conservative but poor white voters into the Democratic Party fold."

Oh and this shocking admission:

""Certainly I'm going to make mistakes. I'm not perfect. I don't think anybody who has ever been president is perfect."

[karlspur]

109. Yes and he also has parenting problems

His son is a thief! He was driving the get away car while his gang members stole liquor from his father's exclusive, no blacks allowed, country club. So leave him alone! He is not a common drunk, he is an upper crust country club bratwurst theif

[MercutioATC]

111. "No blacks allowed" country club? Care to prove that?

You DO, of course, have a link for that, right?

Also, the Deans are not members.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/dean.son/

I hope ALL of Dean's detractors are this easy to refute next year.

[karlspur]

118. I used heavy sarcasm

But that doesn't negate the point that Dean's son is a thief.

[LuminousX]

119. heavy sarcasm...

Interesting. I'm going to store that one for later use.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

150. Damn! My post was deleted!

...so was the person I was replying to, however, so I guess it's a net gain...

[Alex146]

110. I love the way you have no link and no quotes

[blm]

116. You never saw the quote in context? Here you go AGAIN...

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.
Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.
"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."
Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[blm]

117. bump...for Alex

don't want you to miss the truth.

[blm]

156. bump for Alex...the truth is waiting.

.

[genius]

115. THe reason I left Dean's campaign last June was because

I believed his positions on certain issues were racist. The flag controversy is no big surprise to me except that I find it extrely outrageous that someone could be so insensitive. Next he'll be showing off antique whips at his rallies.

[mzmolly]

121. Well, BLM states that it was about the NRA, so which is it?

Dean a racist?! Even Sharpton disagrees with you there.

Ridiculous. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

123. No, it was in the context of defending his pro-NRA record.

And Dean has already admitted his statement was wrong. So why can't you admit it?

[mzmolly]

127. Why can't you stay on topic? Is this about Dean being a liar or a racist?

:shrug:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

132. It's all about Dean. You make your judgement about him, I'll make mine.

And a few months from now, the voters will start making theirs.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

134. Actually that's proof that Dean made similarly insensitive remarks before.

But it doesn't change the fact that this fracas started a week ago, when Dean was trying to defend his pro-NRA stance. And here's from the Des Moines Register article that got Dean in so much trouble that he had to eat his words:

Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

135. That's absurd. Those remarks are from Feb. The remarks from LAST WEEK

are what caused the commotion.

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

138. Do you know the difference between February and November?

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

140. I looked at your link again

as it had been provided before. I read the entire article three times. And I still don't see where the Confederate Flag quote is related to guns by anyone but the reporter. There are do direct quotes of Dean having anything to do with guns that are attributed to that phone call.

start of quote

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.

Dean said he wanted to protect hunters' rights to use semiautomatic hunting rifles in Vermont. But the question about the ban referred both to federal and state law.

Former Democratic state Sen. Elizabeth Ready of Vermont said Dean's position on guns was the same as the vast majority of Democrats in Vermont.

The only gun control bill introduced in Vermont during Dean's 11 years as governor died before it was debated, according to chief Vermont Legislative Counsel Bill Russell.

"People have to understand hunting is part of Vermont's cultural fabric," said Ready, a liberal Democrat who also opposed the bill.

When asked about his position on guns on the campaign trail, Dean said he supports a 1993 federal law requiring that handgun purchases be subject to a waiting period for federal background checks.

He also backs a measure that would require purchases at gun shows be accorded the same checks. Beyond that, gun control should be up to individual states, he said.

"I support the assault weapons ban and the reauthorization of the assault weapons ban," Dean said. "I just don't think we should have laws over and above the existing laws. If you show me a new federal gun control law that saves lives, I'll support it. But, frankly, I'm skeptical of that."


end of quote.

These are all the paragraphs in which Dean is quoted or paraphrased except the one in which the Confederate Flag appears. In addition I copied all paragraphs linking the ones I needed. This is an uncut quote from that piece.

Note what the reporter did here. The first quote is directly attributed to the phone call (the Confederate Flag one which I didn't copy). Then there are no more quotes from Dean until the last paragraph I copied. In between are quotes from other people, paraphrases from the campaign trail. The last paragraph gives no source at all for the quotes. The last source before it, which is the way one usually determines which source the author is using, was the campaign trail not the phone call . So if the author didn't make a mistake in his article there is nothing in the phone call attributed to Dean that is about guns. Hence no lie.

For the record, this is why I ask for links. Did you purposely make this error, frankly I highly doubt it. But without a link it would have been impossible for me to find it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

141. I read your post, and this is what I see

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

[dsc]

142. another doctored photo

For the record I don't dispute he said the Confederate Flag thing but I do dispute he said it in a conversation about guns. The questionaire item is not a quote. Clearly the item directly below is not from the phone call as the word often is used. The reporter did the spinning, though at least he didn't post a doctored photo so he does get points for that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

143. What are you talking about?

You seem to be implying something - what?

Is this the photo you mean:



which was cropped from this:



I'll happily post both everytime you bring this up. Either photo shows just what kind of man Howard Dean is. As does his own statements:

"When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs," Dr. Dean said in the interview at The Times. "Al Sharpton was in my face last night and I was not going to step one step, half a step, backwards, and I don't care who's in my face.

"I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner," he added. "Now, unfortunately, we all know that nobody's personality is perfect. So the things that make me a strong candidate are also my Achille's heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/politics/campaigns/06DEAN.html?hp

In case you don't know the difference between a doctored photo and one that is cropped, here is a doctored photo:



and here is the article you are spinning again:

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

[dsc]

144. Talk about spinning

Yes cutting a photo in a way which changes its apparent meaning is doctoring a photo. It may be less doctored than your second example but just like pregnant being a little bit doctored is as bad as being a lot doctored.

As to my alledged spin. Yet again, show me a quote, attributed to Dean via the phone call, that is about guns. I don't see one. The last quote maybe but only if we use a non standard way of sourcing items.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

145. Your characterization is totally false.

Here, we have Dean talking about getting in Sharpton's face:

"When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs," Dr. Dean said in the interview at The Times. "Al Sharpton was in my face last night and I was not going to step one step, half a step, backwards, and I don't care who's in my face.

"I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner," he added. "Now, unfortunately, we all know that nobody's personality is perfect. So the things that make me a strong candidate are also my Achille's heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/politics/campaigns/06DEAN.html?hp

Here, we have a picture of what Dean was talking about:



Here, we have another version of the same picture:



How did the meaning change?

And while you are at it, tell us again how this Des Moines Register article: Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views is not about guns. :eyes:

[dsc]

146. the article was

but the phone call wasn't. And that is my point. And yes, CMB's reaction shows that they were quite likely kidding. That is what altering means.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

147. You've compared yourself to Carnac before.

Since you are so sure you know what is in CMB's head:



why don't you tell us

what's in the envelope?



Maybe you can also tell us what Sharpton is thinking during this lecture from Dean:



And also please tell us how when Dean says:

"When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs," Dr. Dean said in the interview at The Times. "Al Sharpton was in my face last night and I was not going to step one step, half a step, backwards, and I don't care who's in my face.


"I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner," he added. "Now, unfortunately, we all know that nobody's personality is perfect. So the things that make me a strong candidate are also my Achille's heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/politics/campaigns/06DEAN.html?hp

What he really means is he was sharing a funny joke with Al?

[diamondsoul]

155. This is just such an odd photo.

I mean it does strike me as odd that Carol would be smiling like that, but then again, Sharpton has a way about him that makes me laugh at the oddest moments, too.

I wasn't all that upset about the confederate flag hubbub, really, until I saw how clearly upset John Edwards was. The plain truth is neither myself nor Dean are southerners. We can't understand a lot of issues that people in the South deal with because we've never dealt with them ourselves. That just really made me think about how a Southerner might feel. For my part, I don't think it was a "racist" comment, but I do think it injected an element of race where it didn't belong.

Look the simple fact is it was stereotyping. I don't take kindly to being stereotyped, and I can't imagine most people do. There's a valid point that Dean was not discussing race in the interview which raised all the stir, and unfortunately he made an unthinking remark which put race into people's minds. He ought to apologize for stereotyping and refusing to see legitimate offense from two decent men, and one young voter, as deserving of some humility on his part.

To the person who said Sharpton was trying to "exclude certain segments" that's honestly true in an abstract way. Tell me, would anyone here invite people bearing Swastikas on their vehicles to a peace talk with Jewish folks? I sure wouldn't.

I think what Dr. Dean has really missed is that the implication works both ways. In his mind he was inviting poor white people in the South to vote for what is best for them. Unfortunately he misses that he was also suggesting that black voters should vote with the very people who would see them oppressed even now.

I can't defend the statement or why he categiorized it the way he did, I can only say after thinking about it and watching his own behavior I'm convinced it shouldn't be dismissed as trivial. To do so would be to disregard every person in this country who has ever suffered the indignity and the horror of racism.

[blm]

148. He was DEFENDING his NRA support from

when he made the statement. Please show in this article that caused the brouhaha where Dean was bringing up the Confederate flag in his desire to start a discussion about race relations.

The whole article is about Dean's NRA support and gun control. To spin it otherwise to be about race is absurd.

NO mention by Dean about race relations.

[dsc]

151. I didn't say there was in the quotes the reporter chose

but there also were no quotes about guns either. The fact is that from that article we have no clue what that phone call was about. None of the quotes from Dean in regards to guns are explicitly sited as comming from that phone call. The last quote, which isn't explicitly sited may have been from the phone call but under standard rules of citation (that quotes are assumed to come from the latest prior citation unless otherwise noted) it didn't. Your contention is that Dean lied due to the phone call being about guns and thus his statement being about guns. The article doesn't say that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

153. So Dean is interviewed about his NRA backing

and in the context of that interview, says
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks",
and we are supposed to believe this was his way of starting a dialogue about race? :eyes:

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

[blm]

154. dsc.....this is WAY beneath you.

If you had to be a judge and rule on this, what does the evidence before you show?

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

162. heheh...you box with that reach?

You guys know there is a truth here. Face it and move on. It's going to come back and haunt you later anyway when Bushinc. runs the ad a thousand times, get used to it.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

165. You said I was inaccurate, and now say my post lies. YOU are the one

who is being insulting.

Now, since you say the post is a lie, then SHOW what Dean said (in the article where he made the remark) ANYTHING that points to a discussion about race relations. Point to where I lied when I said the article was all about the NRA support for Dean and gun control.

Point to the lie and I will acknowledge it.

[helleborient]

166. Did Dean say something about Confederate flag holders?

No, I didn't think so...you misquoted him, or you didn't know what he said.

This is the ridiculously narrow definition of lie you are following.

If Dean lied, why is it in no media?

Why isn't John Kerry talking about it?

Why are no other candidates talking about it?

And why is the original thread inaccurate?

I know what you meant to say and I know what Howard Dean overall was talking about.

If Howard Dean does not get a chance to explain himself, then you don't either.

Your original misstated lie stands...if his stands.

What a ridiculous argument about lies.

All of the candidates have told lies by this definition.

John Kerry lied about what campaign money he would use when he ran against William Weld.

An argument could be made that Dennis Kucinich lied about abortion by your ridiculously narrow definition.

All of them lied, so Howard Dean lying by this narrow definition does nothing to distinguish him from any other candidate...and I'm sure George Washington did to by your definition.

[mzmolly]

168. ;)

:yourock:

[blm]

181. Holder as in "ownership"...they bought that decal, they own it.

Amazing standard you have there to call what I said a lie.

And I am quite sure you know the difference in Dean using that statement to appeal to gun owners and NOT making an appeal to discuss race relations.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

189. your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/songs/jpflagdecal.html

Apparently the cartoonist understood that this was a discussion about assault weapons, not race :eyes:

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

190. It simply makes no sense to say that Dean's answer to the

the reporters questions about guns were actually about race.

[LuminousX]

172. This thread deserves to die

It is a total non-issue.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

173. How is the difference between telling the truth and lying a non-issue?

[LuminousX]

174. It isn't a lie... going back and forth saying 'is so' 'is not'

doesn't accomplish anything. Both sides have stated their cases. What more needs to be done?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

175. So why did you kick it then?

:shrug:

[LuminousX]

176. It was already at the top

so no harm... if it were at the bottom, not recently responded to... I would have let it die.