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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 03:45 AM
Original message
Kerry Opens New Attacks Against Dean
Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) accused presidential rival Howard Dean (news - web sites) of lacking principles and flip-flopping on key issues Thursday, hoping to convert the front-runner's fumble over the Confederate flag into a sweeping indictment of Dean's policies and personality.

<snip>

Kerry said Dean's shift on gun policy fits a pattern in which the former governor has changed his views on a number of issues since the 1990s, including Social Security, Medicare, trade and public financing of elections. Dean held relatively moderate views as governor, and now is more in line with traditional Democrats who vote in the primaries.

"It's not enough just to switch your positions in the presidential race," Kerry said. "These are issues of principle."

On one of those issues, however, Dean and Kerry are carbon copies. Both candidates have long claimed to support public financing of elections, but now Dean is poised to opt out of the federal system and Kerry said he may follow suit.

"If he gets out, he invites somebody else to get out," Kerry said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/democrats_2004



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gardenista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. "If he gets out, he invites somebody else to get out," Kerry said.
Ok, Senator, let's see what your wife has to say about that! LOL

I think John Kerry would make a fine President. So would Clark, so would Dean, and I could even get worked up for Edwards or Gep.

And this applies to all of them. I want to vote for a candidate who can change his or her position after careful consideration.

Just my $.02.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Dean Just Saying What People Want To Hear?
I find that hard to believe.

<>
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. LOL
Dean as a stalking horse for Sharon:).
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Don't Get Me Started
Let's just say that the two of them are familiar with each other.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Mr. Lukid
meet Mr. Political Convenience;).
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. lol, one more time, IWR
When Deanie's have nothing, they drag out the old standby. The war vote. It's getting to be great comic relief.

Kerry has to keep going after Dean and if he loses because of it, so be it. Somebody has got to tell the truth and expose Dean. That's what Kerry's been doing his entire career and I have no doubt he'll get it done again. Thank you, once again, Senator Kerry!
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. When Deanie's Have Nothing?
I'm so tempted to say something, but I won't. Suffice it to say that there are few Dean supporters willing to go much further than:

1. We opposed the war and you supported it.
2. Gee, ain't our grassroots empowering?
3. He really speaks to my anger at Bush.
4. We opposed the war and you supported it.
5. What he really meant was...
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. And Kerry supporters....................
Dean said this, Dean said that! Don't they have a message of their own, or is whining about Howard Dean their entire platform? Don't cast stones Dr.Funkenstein, one might come back and whack you in the head.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It's the campaign, not the message
Kind of pointless to talk about a message when Deanie's are only interested in the super-awesome internet driven people powered campaign!!! You know, the one Dean just threw in the toilet when he decided to toss out spending caps. And if you really want to talk about a message, if Howard had the same message two weeks in a row, I wouldn't be bitching about him.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. It hasn't worked thus far....................
and many doubt that it will. Dean's numbers are up, Kerry's are remaining static. People don't want to hear Kerry constantly attacking Dean, they want to hear his message, whatever that may be. His constant attacks haven't worked, yet he insists on trying. Isn't that the old saw about the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. What's Deans Message?
4 years of anti-Bush? I'm overwhelmed.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Doesn't matter
Somebody has to expose Dean. If that means Kerry loses and Clark or Gephardt wins instead, fine. Somebody has to expose Dean. I'm so proud Kerry is the one with the courage to stand up and do it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Nothing
More nothing. A campaign where people are just excited to 'feel' like they're part of a campaign, doesn't matter that the candidate doesn't stand for anything. It's a sad endictment on our country and has absolutely nothing to do with the qualities of John Kerry.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I see..............
I'm 53 years old, have been politically active since I was 17, have worked on many campaigns.........you're right, I'm just caught up in the moment. What was I thinking? I've seen many candidates come and go, I've supported some I really didn't care for, but they were Dems. For you to suggest that I'm some politcial neophyte who doesn't know the issues, someone that is just a "kool-aid drinker" as you Dean haters put it, is ignorant and ludicrous. If Kerry hadn't spent his political capital being the lead dancer in the Bush Follies (pink tutu and all) I might be supporting him. He had his chance to stand up to Bush and he failed miserably.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. But why Dean?
His positions have been worse than what you claim the pink tutus have been. What the hell do you think he'd do if he were President? He isn't going to fight against the right and get some Democratic benefits along the way. No, he's going to be standing with the right because he's a centrist Democrat. So if you're against what the pink tutus have done, why vote for someone who actually prefers what they've done to begin with. I don't get it, makes no sense at all.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think the point is this:
Kerry must decide if bashing Dean (or any of the other candidates)is really helping his candidacy. My husband, who was interested in Kerry at one time, is backing off because he feels Kerry doesn't have a message any more. All he does is bash Dean.

No matter what you think of Dean, you must consider the possible negative impact this tactic has on Kerry's campaign.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Kerry needs to
tell me why his plans are better than Dean's plans. Telling me Dean is unprincipled and spending his time trying to convince me of that is a detractor and doesn't tell me why I should vote for him instead.

Dean's positions are somewhat solid. So let's get into the nitty-gritty of the plans and proposals. I thought we had a great discussion going on the tax issue. It was informative and brought out a lot of points I hadn't considered before. Why can't we have more of that?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. All Kerry can do is put his plans out there...
It's up to you to decide why his are better.

If Kerry is attacking Dean now - well, payback is a drag. Dean has been bashing ALL the other candidates since the beginning.

I can't agree with you that Dean's positions are solid. Four months ago, Dean was my number two choice. Then I started looking at his actual record of governance in Vermont - and found major disconnects between that and his positions now. The Howard Dean who was governor of Vermont seems to be a completely different Howard Dean from the one who is running for president.

Some may call this evolution. Some may call it flip-flopping. I call it an opportunistic politician who is willing to take whatever poition he thinks will win him an election.

Kerry's positions, like them or not, have been pretty consistant over his entire career. And, to be honest, I don't like all of them. But, over time, Kerry has convinced me he is a man of principal - Howard Dean has not.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. I agree 100%
While this isn't pleasant, it would be totally unprincipled of Kerry to let Howard continue to misrepresent himself to Democratic voters. I disagree with the way Howard ran Vermont, but I despise the way he's lying about it and pretending to be something different today.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Kerry may not be 'Bush-Lite' but he's certainly 'Bush-like' and his words
and deeds support this assertion. Kerry: 'Bush is a good man trying to do good things'. To EVEN think this thought is tragic but to express it to the world immediately after giving Chimpy your proxy to bomb the Iraqi people denotes a lack of connection to poltical reality.

If Kerry would have stood with the decent people of the world and forcefully condemned the very suggestion of bombing these people and exposing our young men and women of the armed forces to death and injury he would have had MY VOTE and MY SUPPORT. He chose to follow the ignorant political consultants and go for the 'war hero' approach to the campaign. Many knew it was the wrong approach and now that his campaign has confirmation (#'s) he attacks and misrepresents Dean's commitments.

Boating with JFK and 'wanting to be the president' is one thing. Putting young men and women in the ground to gain votes is quite another. If he didn't understand the eventual results of his vote then he needs to rethink his 'career choices'.

Dean '04...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. "Bush is a good man trying to do good things"
I know you would have rather Kerry said- "Bush is an evil man trying to destroy this country"... but that would obliterate any crediblilty Kerry could possibly have with the general electorate.
NOTE: Not all Americans are rabid liberals who hate the very ground Bush walks upon- a lot of them are moderates who may even go to church every sunday and we need their votes to win. (As Dean tried to say but in a less smart way)
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Bush-like comparisons are not what the party needs. Bush has no
characteristics of a good man and his policies indicate a selfishness and callousness that are anything but good. To indicate otherwise is not wise or sensible.

Dean '04...A good man trying to do good things.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Bush and Dean believe in deregulation and state's rights for
controversial issues.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. Dean didn't know it was the wrong approach
He said give Saddam time to comply with inspections, then go in unilaterally if necessary. He said it before the vote, he said it after the vote. You can't offer the solution that Congress voted on then turn around and say you oppose the solution. Well, I guess you can if you're Howard Dean, he's the one who will say anything for a vote.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
18. Day in, Day out - Dean is still the key topic of conversation
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. So was Perot in 92.
.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. What an ass.
Dean slightly altered his political positions over a ten year period! DOOM!

Unlike Kerry, who never-ever-ever changes his positions on anything, even if situations or the facts change.

No wonder his campaign is taking a nosedive.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Don't you mean donkey
Like this:


Now if you are talking about Dean:


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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No, I mean ass.
as in
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Well, let's see if I can rise to your level of rheteric
Howard Dean is an ass.

Wow, suddenly I feel so eloquent. Maybe I have a future as a writer after all...



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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Maybe you do!
Kerry is an ass.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. Larkspur awards Kerry first official "Daffy Duck" Award
"Daffy Duck" award stands for 1) Dem candidates jealous of the frontrunner, who used wit, hard work, and gutsy strategy to leapfrog the annointed leaders of the Dem Party, and 2) the jealous candidate's backstabbing attacks backfire on him/her.

Kerry attacks on Dean have only increased Dean's lead in the NH polls. Way to go Kerry!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. So the fact that Dean has flip-flopped on all this issues doesn't matter?
All that matters is the latest poll?

Well, that's consistent anyway... since that's the reason for Dean's flip-flops in the first place.



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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Flip-flop, waffle, lies...
These are poor attacks. Hearing them, any supporter automatically tunes you out.

It is far better to say Dean seems to suffer from an inconsistency that stems from a lack of developed opinions and stances. This way, Kerry doesn't look spiteful, he looks like the elder stateman he is.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. It doesn't matter? Lies don't matter?
Yes they do. What would happen if we had a President who believed image was the only thing that mattered, whose supporters didn't care if he lied?

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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. If this is the way that Kerry is planning to run from here out...
The fact that John Kerry can not gain traction with his own policies and must instead attempt to gain traction through attack politics is very important.

I want to vote FOR a candidate...it seems that Kerry, if he is taking this approach, is conceding there is not good enough reason to vote for him. He thinks he is helped best by a vote against Howard Dean.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I agree
I like Kerry but he needs at some point to quit mumbling "Dean, Dean, Dean" in his sleep and run on ideas (though I know its because of Dean's current position in the race, especially New Hampshire).
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