Oh my God, it really is all about money . . .

[michaelbmoore]

It's not about ideas, or being right, or doing the right thing.

We will never beat the repugs at their own game. We will only beat them by providing a real alternative.


(Look, Mom I started a thread that had 30 posts and I didn't get flamed, yet)

[no name no slogan]

1. It sure is

Why play "their" game, by "their" rules? The outcome is predetermined. We'll lose.

Americans want REAL change in politics, not just "window dressing". Almost 1/2 of the eligible electorate doesn't even bother to VOTE for president anymore. Why?

Because each major-party candidate has offered nothing but "politics as usual" to the electorate. And now we're seeing some of the so-called "different" politicians pandering to the lowest common denominator and deciding to play the same tired game that has led us to defeat repeatedly.

If this party continues down this path, we risk becoming as relevant as the Whigs were in 1860.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Well, good morning! Would you like some tea? naan? croissant?

:)

[michaelbmoore]

3. I think I'm

awake now, thank you! Mmmm. . .coffee would be nice.

[StClone]

37. More than money

Perversion by power with money as the catalyst.

[Khephra]

4. Dean is raising money because of his ideas and actions

Lets just let Bush beat up whoever the candiate is with his war chest. That's the ticket!

There's NEVER been a Democratic candidate that could opt out. Originally Dean would have been condemned for being arrogant if he said that he'd opt out before the numbers started coming in.

Dean made history.

Many, if not most, of the other candidates are on their way to becoming history.

It seems as if many of you are willing to just let Bush have his way with us, letting him beat us at a rigged game.

YES, money and politics suck. Why don't we get a more balanced game (eg a Democratic President) and then reform the system? It's not going to get better under 4 more years of Bush--it will get worse.

[michaelbmoore]

7. Why?

Why should I trust him to fix the system he bypassed?

[Khephra]

9. Who do you trust to reform the system?

The system is broken. Totally. And it's rigged in the Republican's favor.

When you show me a way to counter Bush's 200 million then I'll tell you that Dean was wrong. Until then we're the peasants fighting the Boy King on the Hill with the entire force of the gov't and the media in his hip pocket.

You name a way to fight that, under a pResident who has shown to be as evil and duplicitous as Nixon (if not more) and then I'll rant against Dean myself.

[michaelbmoore]

14. No matter how they change the laws. . .

the robber barons will find a way to make money a replacement for democracy. . .

I don't know the answer about change, but it's not going to be to try and beat the robber barons at their own game. They will win every time.

We have to change the game.

[Khephra]

28. If he opted in for the limits

Dean would have been playing their game. He's not playing their game this way.

It sounds like working within the system--whatever aspect of the system it might be, whether opting in or out--doesn't seem like a way to succeed in your eyes. You say you don't know the answer. Ok. That' perfectly understandable.

But I'm interested in how you would change the game between now and the next election? Does this country--nay, this world--stand a chance if Bush isn't kicked out by some Democrat? Even at their worst, none of the Democrats could do a worse job globally than Bush.

[michaelbmoore]

30. I don't know how to say this,

But here's a shot.

Trust in the grassroots, the people more than in the money.

His grassroots are great, they're distincitive, there changing politics. Say right here I draw the line, that the United States and the great things it can be is about who we are individually and when we work together.

Obviously, I'm not a political theorist.

[Rose Siding]

32. Good points and good ideas

"His grassroots are great, they're distincitive, there changing politics. Say right here I draw the line, that the United States and the great things it can be is about who we are individually and when we work together."

Couple that drive, that creativity and the responsible frugality that the campaign has already exhibited, with enough money to fight the TV ad wars with Bush, and HOW can we lose this thing?

I agree that the whole concept of trusting people over $ should be a goal. I'd be willing to work on in encouraging new CF policy.

First we have to win.

[Khephra]

38. I'll agree..good points

I wish the world would work that way.

I've been watching this trainwreck of an administration from wake to sleep, every day for just about three years now, and if there's one thing I've learned is that the Bushies are political criminals who will stop at nothing to get what they want. Worse ones than we've ever seen before.

Politics has been called war by other means, and right now I think the entire country and world is at risk. I'm not going to get upset by Dean using money against Bush, even if he can't beat him at the same game.

If politics is warfare by other means, then we'd be silly not to at least try to match weapon for weapon. I dream of the day the whole game can be changed, but I think that if someone doesn't get Bush out of office in 2004 then it will be game over for this country...at least as far as I'd care to live here. And it will take money to do that.

But sign me up for any plan that anyone might come up with that would get money out of the system entirely. Until then, it's a broken system as is, weighed in the Republicans favor.

Stakes are too high--and the odds of Dean getting this much money were so low when he was asked about the funding question--for me to get upset over this issue.

My main issue is the people dying in Iraq because of a bad Iraq Resolution. Death vs going back on a fundraising promise. Yeah, both choices suck, but only one of them involves death on a daily basis.

[w4rma]

39. Grassroots can't place ads on TV and radio without money.

It's really that simple.

Most of that money will be used on radio and television ads. Lesser amounts of that money will be used to pay full time coordinators in the 50 states who can coordinate with the grassroots. Even lesser amounts of that money will be used to pay for ads in newspapers and on flyers.

That's my understanding. Blame it on the TV and the radio.

[Nazgul35]

40. ummmm....

the money's from the grass roots....and it was the grass roots that voted for him to forego the process....

Or hasn't this sunk in with anyone yet...

what follows is a generic response to an arguement and not aat any one poster

You see, Dean has the largest grass roots pop. than any of the other candidates, the same people who have worked hard to get their candidate up to the top of the polls for the last three months....these same people voted....that's VOTED by 85% to reject the spending limits imposed on the dems but not Bush....

and where's the money coming from...from us....from me....to date...I have sent the campaign $175 and have pledged another $50 by Iowa...and if you like at my sig...I am also sending $20 a month to the eventual Dem nominee...no matter who that is....

So here's my questions....

How many of you who are faux bitching over this have actually sent money to your candidate?

Is the reason your candidate isn't opting out is cause he doesn't have any cash?

How can you not see the difference between the funding that Dean is getting and Bush...every dinner Bush goes to his supporters max out on funding...only about 2,000+ of Deans have reached the limit...

If you're so damn worried about the party, why haven't you taken your behind over to the DNC and signed up for the ePatriot fun...read my sig to understand why....or are you one of those people who say...

"I don't want to give any money till I know who the nominee is..."
or

"The DNC is a bunch of surrender monkeys and they aint getting my
cash!"

If this is the case...I really cant use the wrods clever for anyone who thinks this way....

The reason the DNC and other party members had to go to soft moeny was because we deserted them...guess we'd rather watch friends than spend any time down at the local Dem headquarters or sending cash to the party....but go ahead...keep bitchin about the evils of money while at the same time you dont do a god damn thing but sit on your ass and bitch about how much nicer the world would be if everyone was just like you

everyone watch to see who doth protest too much at what I say....

I once saw a great quote...dont know who said it...but it was basically this:

"A moral vitory is just another term for loser..."

And everyone says Dean can't beat Bush.....ha!

Isnt it also interesting who's supporters key in on particular attacks....i'd love to be in on the email talking points memos or campaign blogs that think these stinkers up....if ya wanna know why the other campaigns are trailing Dean....spend five minutes looking through the attack threads!

[caledesi]

20. We have better ideas and it would be nice to talk about them instead

of being beaten down by * and his money machine.

[no name no slogan]

15. Clinton promised to reform campaign finance too

but he, too, governed like a Republican when he got to the white house.

So far, Dean's willingness to triangulate on damn near anything has done little to convince me (and many others who favor REAL CHANGE) that he will be nothing more than another disappointment when it comes to this, too.

Add this to the fact that he stated in March that federal matching funds would be a KEY ISSUE for him and that he would criticize the other candidates who forwent them, and you've got yourself not only triangulation, but hypocracy as well.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[caledesi]

17. Hey look...if * plans on raising $200 million and will have the

ability to run all kinds of ads disparaging our candidate, why shouldn't our candidate be on the same playing field? Also, reemember the $ for Dean is coming STRAIGHT from the people and it feels good.

And oh, oh, we Dean supporters actually got the chance to vote on what he should do. Again, feels good being part of the process!

[no name no slogan]

18. Play by their rules, lose by their rules.

We've done it before, and if Dean gets the nod, we'll do it again. ONWARD TO DEFEAT!

[Egnever]

24. um as oposed to someone else getting the nod

and playing by thier rules with less cash?

Brilliant strategy you've got going there.

[michaelbmoore]

31. See...

post #30

[JailBush]

5. What pisses me off is the way materialistic attitudes have

poisoned our entire society. The "Me Decade" was merely a preview of what was to come - an era when people worship money and care about nothing else. One of my favorite examples is Bill Gates. When I criticized him, people often reply, "But he's donated millions of dollars to the Seattle School District!"

I counter, "But HOW was the money used? Did it actually make it into the classroom? How can corrupt school officials be trusted with money donated by Gates or anyone else? Why is the district's decline continuing?"

They just look at me with a blank stare.

I say, "Bill Gates is corrupt; witness the more than 500 school districts that he BLACKMAILED!"

They just look at me with a blank stare.

I say, "Bill Gates is global menace!"

They reply, "But he gave millions of dollars to the Seattle School District!"

[blm]

6. Libertarian Dem vs. Libertarian Republican

let's see...who wins?

[Padraig18]

10. Please define 'Libertarian Dem'

Proof that a candidate *is* one would also be nice.

[genius]

8. Mr. Park Avenue has decided to let money control the election.

Perhaps the other candidates should air commercials explaining how Dean is trying to buy the White House and asking the American people "Can you be bought?"

[Padraig18]

11. That'll certainly help elect a Democrat!

:eyes:

[no name no slogan]

16. Yes, more DINOS! Hurrah!

Just what this party needs-- more corporate whoring and pandering to the interests of big business. Since it's worked SO WELL for us over the last decade. :eyes:

[LuminousX]

19. Pro-choice, pro-health care - F*CK those DINO's

Define your version of a DINO, or was that an off-the-cuff remark made out of frustration over the current situation?

[no name no slogan]

41. Simple.

Pro-Choice? SFW??? We've got plenty of Pro-Choice Republicans out there, too. Arne Carlson, the ex-Gov. of Minnesota, is a huge Pro-Choice Republican. There are also a lot of anti-Choice Democrats, too. What is your point, then, exactly? WHen has this ever been a "litmus test" for Democrats?

"Pro-Healthcare"? Please explain how one can be "anti-Healthcare". Shit, even GWB is "pro-healthcare": I'm sure he doesn't believe that people should go without it. But what kind of "healthcare" does he prefer? A for-profit industry run for the best interests of insurance and pharmaceutical companies that provides coverage for 92% of the population? Or one that will be run for the benefit of the PATIENTS that covers EVERYONE?

Here's a few Dean policies that make him a DINO:

The so-called "War on Drugs": Dean believes in continuing the current failed Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush drup policy that has done NOTHING to curb drug use and more to criminalize drug users. Of course, you wouldn't know this by searching his site-- he removed all his pro-Drug War statements after some of his supporters got "curious".

And Dean admitted smoking pot. I have to wonder if he'd support more mandatory minimum sentences for people like him (and no, I don't mean priviledged white people who have enough money to buy their innocence).

The Death Penalty: Dean favors the death penalty for certain criminals after a "fair trial". Death penalty opposition has been part of the Democratic Party platform since the 1970s. If Dean somehow thinks that it's possible for every convicted criminal to have a "fair trial", he's been spending too much time with his buddies on Wall Street and not with the people on Main Street.

Welfare "Reform": Dean has stated, over and over, how he favors the so-called welfare "reform" implemented by Clinton (another DINO). These reforms have done much to reduce the welfare rolls, but little to bring poor people out of poverty, as was their "intention".

Pro-NAFTA: Dean was fervently pro-NAFTA when it was passed-- as was that other great DINO Bill Clinton. NAFTA has been one of the single most destructive acts to the working people of this country in our history. He's still pro-NAFTA, but now he wants to make changes to it. Kind of like shutting the barn door after the horses have bolted.

Pro-Defense Industry: Dean has stated, over and over, that he will not touch the Defense budget of this country, not even to eliminate the deficit. He has pledged to slash funding of "Star Wars" by 1/8, despite the fact that the system has been in development for almost 20 years, has wasted billions of dollars, and has yet to produce a system that even APPROACHES workability. He's

Deficit spending: Dean has stated REPEATEDLY that he is "to the right of Bush" on this. He wants to eliminate the deficit in FIVE YEARS (half the time of Clinton), yet still insists he won't touch the defense budget.

If defense is hands-off, what does that leave to be cut to "balance" the budget?

If you guessed social programs, infrastructure, and our long-suffering educational system, YOU'RE CORRECT!

Other than the fact that he's pissed them off by breaking ranks and opposing the war, he's little more than another DINO from the DLC, along with Liebermann and Gore.

I REFUSE to support (other than holding my nose at the polling place) yet another "centrist" apologist who has more in common with Zel Miller than Russ Feingold. There's a LOT of other Democrats who feel this way, too. If Dean somehow things the liberals will go to the dance with him while he leaves with the corporatists, he's got another thing coming.

[LuminousX]

12. Yes, I think they should

[caledesi]

23. Love your graphic LX. You make it? nt

[LuminousX]

25. Yeah, it is slowly evolving

as I avoid doing other more important work.

[no name no slogan]

42. o/t what's your backend on your site?

I know you talked about linking it to something like that to make it easier to update. I assume you're on a Unix flavor, w/ PHP and/or Perl/CGI?

Just curious-- I do web app building by day and would be interested in seeing what you're planning (maybe contributing some code if you need it?). Sounds cool! B-)

[LuminousX]

13. So, will people not vote for Bush because he opted out?

[liberalmuse]

21. Oh god!

Not another one of these posts! People just don't get it. I see what Dean has done as a very positive thing. Of course his detractors are going to jump on him for this, like they jump on him for every, effing thing. This, right here, is what will get Bush back in office again. I swear these are the same people who saw no difference between Bush and Gore, and now they see no difference between Dean's financing and Bush's financing, and refuse to see how self-defeating it would be to take only 1/4th of what Bush is using when there is the potential to get more from millions of people desparate to oust Bush. It's about ENERGY, not money. Dean accepting the cap would be cutting all that potential energy of people feeling empowered and committed right off.

Oh *%&$#! I give up.

[michaelbmoore]

29. I thought

Potential energy was a term used in physics, not political science.

[liberalmuse]

34. Analogies are allowed here, right?

I mean, we can mix and match terminologies from the various sciences just for fun, can't we? Are you being a condescending a-hole, or is that just an observation you thought was important enough to post? I'll be honest and say that right now I'm being a pissy bi-otch.

[michaelbmoore]

36. Well I thought it was important

because if you are using potential energy in a physical science sense I'm not sure it is a very good analogy. I guess I could have phrased it better. Sorry.
But, you're right, I usually am a condescending a-hole.

[cryofan]

22. must appeal to base emotions--envy, anger

Kucinich is supporting universal health care. That is what western europe has for its citizens. What we need to do is present via TV a sense of the kind of social benefits the western europeans have. Once Americans understand that most europeans do not have to worry about losing their health care when they lose their jobs, Americans will be envious and angry. And they will elect Kucinch.

Just sell it!

[many a good man]

26. Its about WHERE the money comes from

$50 & $100 checks from half a million or more Americans turns the current corrupt system on its head. Grass roots instead of tree tops. Whoever would have imagined such a thing possible?

Pinch me. Is this really happening? Maybe we can beat the repugs at their own game if we can offer a candidate appealing enough.

[drfemoe]

27. Yeah ain't it a shame

WE, therefore, the architects and builders of Dean for America, appealing to the Wise Judgment of the American people on our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these United States, solemnly Publish and Declare, the People of these United States are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT OF SPECIAL INTERESTS and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT CITIZENS, they have full Power to participate, deliberate, pursue the common good, protect their own interest from corruption, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT CITIZENS may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, we mutually pledge to each other to write letters, knock on doors, organize our neighbors, self- fund this effort, and vote.

[KittyWampus]

33. Campaign Finance-Done At State Level

IMO, it makes more sense to have grassrooters organizing and working towards public financing on the STATE level.

Some states already have PF.

[michaelbmoore]

35. Have you read The Two Percent Solution?

and Bruce Ackerman's concept of "Patriot Dollars"