What is behind the hatred for Nader and Moore?

[Q]

- It looks like fear and desperation of a party out of power and out of time. It looks like the same type of blind hatred RWingers felt and still feel for the Clintons.

- It's quite strange indeed that while many Democrats have seemingly forgiven the Bushies* for blatantly stealing an election and turning this country into a Banana Republic...some on the Left can't seem to forgive third parties for the 'crime' of participating in Democracy.

- This type of misdirected anger separates us from those who share many common dreams and goals. It's time we put an end to these destructive vendettas and work together to rid OUR country of the Bush* scourge and restore some semblance of Democracy.

- Let's concentrate on what we have in common and put an end to the type of blind hate we say we despise in the opposition.

[wildmanj]

1. nader

hate is such a strong work---basically nader has been a republican stooge for the past number of years--someone they use and then cast him aside and he comes running back to the democrats wanting to know what's wrong

[Q]

2. Why did you move this thread?

- There are other Nader threads in general discussion. Why move only this one?

-

[mmm]

4. too bad about Nader

he is a powerful speaker with lots of insight.
He lost my respect when he screwed Gore.

[sendero]

3. Nader & Moore?

I'm not sure why you'd equate the two. I respect Michael Moore.

[ShaneGR]

5. Nader hatred is deserved, but I'm not sure about Moore

I haven't seen, nor feal, any hatred for Moore. He's just a private citizen, who has done a lot for liberal causes.

Nader on the other hand, is a GOP whore.

[finn]

6. Most of the hatred of moore

comes from the ratshit eating repugs

[AverageJoe]

7. Nader worked hard to screw Gore

and Moore worked hard for Nader. I don't hate these guys, but without them, Shrubby probably wouldn't be squatting in the People's House right now.

The shame of it is, both Nader and Moore have done great things for progressive causes over the years. I am a big fan of Moore's work in particular.

It boils down to this: I'm pissed off that Nader and Moore helped put Bush in power and are so utterly unapologetic....

[no name no slogan]

12. Gore screwed himself

How do you account for the 300,000 Democrats who voted for the Shrub in the state of Florida? What about the recounts, aborted by the SCOTUS, that determined that Gore actuall WON Florida?

Why did the Gore campaign roll over and play dead when challenging the recounts?

Nader blasts Democrats as "whiners".

The only one to blame for Gore's "defeat" is Gore and his campaign. The tired old "blame Ralph" meme was was a lie back then, and it's still a lie, three years later.

If Democrats want to win, then they need to select candidates who act like DEMOCRATS, and take a stand as DEMOCRATS. Yet another "centrist" apologist will lead to yet another defeat.

[leftynyc]

8. Personally I have problems with

anyone who can claim there is no diffence between Dems and Reps. It's intellectually dishonest. Why should I believe anything else they have to say?

[Alex146]

21. I agree

He pushed the idea the Dems are just as bad.

[Dogmudgeon]

9. Just personal behavior stuff

I still have a lot of respect for each of them, but their rhetoric during the "election" was piss-poor.

No need to rehash every word they said. There is a strong tendancy among the radical left to trash liberals. It probably comes from the idea that when suffering increases, so does the pressure for social revolution. It leads to these blood-soaked in-group fights over ideology. If you remember Monty Python's Life of Brian, recall the scene when the two Judean radical groups killed each other off while the Roman guards looked on.

I think Moore has "learned his lesson", so to speak. Nader, however, has become so wrapped up in his own ego that he probably thinks of himself as a hero for "punishing" the Democratic party.

These days, I have put Moore's occasional Y2k gaffes out of my mind, and pretend that there are 2 Ralph Naders, and the good Ralph Nader is the guy who started Public Citizen.

Unity is going to become mandatory, or else the neocons will win everything, lock, stock, and barrel, and they can be counted on to lock that stock down for the next fifty years.

--bkl

[GreenArrow]

24. I don't think they were trashing liberals

they were/are trashing CORPORATISTS.

[elifino]

10. Remember the Corvair

I have disliked Nader since he killed the Corvair.

[OhioStateProgressive]

14. many people died because of that car

they did

[ErasureAcer]

11. I love them both

some people here don't like them because Al Gore ran a horrible campaign and they just need a scapegoat.

[OhioStateProgressive]

13. I have no hate...Nader Supports Kucinich, and Michael Moore...

does too, he just hasn't realized it

[West Coast Democrat]

15. I Hate Nader; I Don't Hate Moore

They're hardly in the same ballpark.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. I love

Nader and Moore.

Nader would be a great Sec'y of Commerce for President Kucinich.

Will have to think about what Moore could do for Dennis. :^)

[OhioStateProgressive]

17. final thought...

too many people don't realize that the system is completely destroyed...so they hold on to this idea that some turd of a democrat is a real candidate...which not a single on of them are, and the only honest one is mired low in the polls...so frankly, this nation is going to drown in republicanism, and when it finally gets bad enough, a socialist leaning candidate will arise and the forgotten peoples will rise up...I actually look forward to it...because if a man like Dennis Kucinich can't get broadbase support, than the party of democracy, the democrats, don't exist, and haven't for a while

i welcome true change, i will wait for it...because the economic collapse that creates it is close at hand

[GreenArrow]

25. Right on!

That viewpoint is not gonna get a lot of support though--most posters here are looking for the Democratic white knight on a white charger to ride in and save us all from the evil George Bush. The system is screwed.

[OhioStateProgressive]

27. the system IS failed...the system CAN change

this experiment of democracy we have can be altered by ourselves internally, or by the market forces externally

we can elect Dennis now

or we can wait for the inevitable economic collapse that is soon on the horizon...when all candidates for President will be leftists...I can go either way...but I would rather just elect Dennis now

[genius]

18. A Republican may get the Democatic nomination. The

Republicrats are against anything liberal or moderate. That said, I still don't like Nader. However, if he continues to back Dennis, he will be doing a lot to make up for three years ago. Moore, last year, backed Democrats in national elections.

[Doomsayer13]

19. Moore is a good man

I like Moore. I was sorta miffed at his role in 2000, but he's a much more sensible liberal now, and keeps consistant. He's trying to work within the party to make it more progressive, a method that I've always promoted. Nader is an egoist and cares more about himself than the causes he champions. I honestly have not an iota of respect left for his sorry ass, how he was more than happy to let the GOP do campaigning for him, and how he's completely unapologetic for the Gore=Bush lie that he propagated to destroy the Dems in 2000. He got what he wanted, I guess it must be satisfying to see this country fly down the toilet.

[GreenArrow]

26. "Nader is an egoist and cares more about himself

than the causes he champions." You could say that about just about any politician out there, of either major party. Egotism is kind of a requirement for politicians.

[Doomsayer13]

28. Yeah, but Nader would have you believe

his poo don't stink too. Him and the California Greens are politicians just like the rest of the Dems, to try to come off as anything so high and mighty is misleading.

[NNadir]

20. I've held Nader in contempt for decades...

because he is a self promoting liar and hypocrite. 2000 was just icing on the cake, although it was completely consistent with the pig that Nader is. Strike breaking, embezzling, misrepresentation...

I'm sure people will now tell me all about how he's a hero, blah, blah, blah...

But it doesn't matter. He's history and history will know him for what he was. Say what you will, but the Nader substitute, Kucinich, is at least an honorable man. Kucinich is as ineffective and will probably prove as meaningless as Nader, but compared to Nader he's relatively honorable. That is not all that hard.

I don't really hate Moore. I dislike him: I note that he made a lot of money though from having Bush in the White House, which may explain some of his behavior in the 2000 election. But maybe he's more of a boob than a schemer, buying Naderism hook, line and sinker thinking that somehow there was an answer there. I don't think so but maybe.

[shoopnyc123]

22. Nader is a spoiler...

...AND a BIG FAT CRY BABY! We have the situation in America as it stands. And crazed ideologues getting incredible power! I mean, come on, Bush, as of today, has raised 98 Million Dollars! This is Ground Zero for Democracy! okay, i'm finished. (whew!)

[mzmolly]

23. Moore = Good - Nader = Bad....

;)

Moore has come around. Nader hasn't.

[redqueen]

29. Isn't it easier to point to an outsider...

than to look within your own family for problems?

There's a lot of reactionary Dem-defending, which is strange, considering how much the weakness of Dem leadership and the complicity of Dems in congress have helped to deliver us into the hands of the right.

[George_Bonanza]

30. I disliked Nader's attitude in 2000, I disliked Moore in BFC

Nader was intellectually dishonest in 2000. There ARE differences between Gore and Bush. Right now, Gore is trying to establish a liberal media network and Bush is trying to handle his ill-advised wars. I can tell you this much: With Gore in the WH, the PNACers would've been gone and no Gulf War II would've happened. 9/11 would've probably still happened, Afghanistan might've still happened, but no way in hell we would've just stomped into Iraq. Is that a big enough difference for your, Nader? But other than that, there's no reason for me to hate him. The only annoyance I have with him are some of his supporters who like to cling onto the Green party in presidential elections because no party is morally higher, if only because they have had no chance to taint it. It's like intellectual cowardice. Not accusing any of you here, but when there's a good Democratic candidate, vote for them because they can win.

As for Mike, I disliked his dishonesty in BFC, but he seems like a good enough of a guy. He has endorsed Clark if I'm not mistaken.

[Doomsayer13]

31. He says he likes Dean, Clark, and Kucinich

When I saw him speak, he said something along the lines of "We need a doctor as president to fix this nation's health care and we need a general to kick Bush's ass!" That got the crowd roaring.