TNR gives John Kerry a 'D' for intellectual honesty:

[Padraig18]

11.10.03

SHORT-TERM MEMORY LOSS?

by Michael Crowley

Candidate: John Kerry
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: D

John Kerry changes his opinion for expediency about Mr. Change-Your-Opinion-for-Expediency:





MR. RUSSERT: Your campaign manager is quoted as follows: "Howard Dean is a very crafty, very calculating politician." Do you agree?

SEN. KERRY: I don't want to make any characterizations. I wish my campaign were not making characterizations of people publicly and I don't like that.
-- NBC's "Meet the Press," August 31, 2003

In an hourlong interview on a public radio program in Concord on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry, who two months ago publicly chastised his campaign manager for assailing Dr. Dean, again and again turned questions about his own views into attacks on Dr. Dean, until his host finally politely asked that Senator Kerry use his time to talk about Senator Kerry.
-- The New York Times, November 9






Kerry is almost singularly focused on undercutting Dean, mostly with increasingly sharp and personal attacks on his character, consistency and honesty.
-- The Washington Post, November 9






Kerry said: "Now, Mr. Change-Your-Opinion-for-Expediency is saying, 'Oh, I'm now able to raise money. Maybe we should get out of the system.' I think somewhere along the line, fundamental principles are important."
--The Washington Post, November 9

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=950

"Et tu, Brute?"

[La_Serpiente]

1. Stop busting these flaming threads

We already had one earlier about this here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=688715

If you trust the The New Republic, you must be out of your mind. They have given many bad grades to Dean himself. This goes for Clark, Kerry, and Edwards.

So if you trust the information coming out of The New Republic, you are sorely mistaken. They are just another extension of the Neo Conservatives. Who writes for them? That's right. Jonathan Chait, the neo-conservative. Who else you may say? Andrew Sullvian, the panty twisted libertarian gay who can only criticize.

The New Republic has zero credibility around here.

If you click here, you will find out that Liberman won the TNR primary last month.

http://www.tnr.com/primary/matrix-daily.mhtml

I also recommend that you look at Will Pitt's post of what is going on. I think his perspective is valid right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=688855
http://www.tnr.com/primary/matrix-daily.mhtml

I believe their rankings are "wholly without merit".

[tlb]

4. Truth is truth.

Coming from TNR doesn't make it less truthful. And I don't care if Andrew Sullivan DOES write for them. It's Kerry who is being discussed, not Sullivan.

My falling out with Kerry came when he tried to pretend he had never supported the war. He is entitled to change his mind on the subject. He is not entitled to insult my intelligence by acting as though all those years of statements about the danger of Iraqi weapons programs, and the need for regieme change with OR without international support, never happened.

The hypocritical manner of his attempts to weasel out of acknowledging his history on the subject totally turned me off his candidacy. All he had to do was say " I was mistaken". He instead played games like "my vote in favor of a war resolution clealry wasn't a vote for a war resolution,".

TNR is correct, intellectual honesty is not a part of Kerry's makeup. Don't shoot the messenger for publishing the truth.

[La_Serpiente]

5. Look

I am not saying having legitamate critiques is wrong. However, as a sign of respect to other candidates, we shouldn't be taking joy in hounding other candidates. I know you didn't say that, but that is what seems to be the general consensus around here.

We should be promoting our candidates, not plastering "Kerry got a D from the New Republic" as the main thread for a general discussion.

I guess my main complaint is not about this individual thread. It is about everything that has been going on around here. I don't think it is necessary to run things into the ground until it becomes meaningless, especially for Democrats. If we're going to do that, let's save it for Bush. But all we are doing here is shooting ourselves in the foot. I don't want to tear our eventual nominee so much that he/she will not be ready to take on Bush. I am worried that this entire primary could cause bitter emotions and carry over into the general campaign season. And I don't think that an anti-Bush mentality could motivate us to organize forces if this keeps up.

We should be setting an ethical standard for ourselves. That's all I am asking for. Both for Kerry and for Dean.

So is it safe to say that a person with a Dean avatar mounting "Kerry gets a D from the New Republic" is not bashing? That's a little bit of Shadenfreude if you ask me.

[OHdem10]

11. Coluld someone help me out here---

Am I not hearing correctly or reading correctly when i listen or read anything from the New Republic---they come across as waterboys
for DLC. Therefore them seem hypercritical of any other candidate.

They come across as hawkish and war is most important issue.

Am I biased ??

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Not a flame, just an observation

Any candidate that puts down anyone but Bush is not helping his candidacy, imho. I'd say the same if it were Dean who was bashing Kerry. The bashing obscures the message the candidate is wanting to get out, and gives the impression that the candidate has nothing to say on his own.

Last night on NPR's All Things Considered, they talked of Kerry, and the fact that his message doesn't seem to be getting out. They focused on his resume and how good it was, and then commented that there has to be more than just a resume. They then said that they hoped the new campaign director would help Kerry get out his message. I hope she does; I want to hear the messages of all the candidates so that we voters can make an informed decision based upon each candidate's message.

[Brucey]

3. I agree.

[Padraig18]

6. This post has a point, and it is this:

At one point yesterday, there were 3 threads in GD and one thread here in P&C using the same article by that RW shill, Kathleen Parker; all were posted by Kerry supporters with the intent to bash Gov. Dean.

The point of this post is that anyone can comb the 'net for some snippet of vitriolic, neo-con "Gotcha!" about any candidate. It strikes me as singularly odd that almost exclusively, the requests to "stop it" are solely directed at Dean supporters, even though we are objectively no more guilty of doing it than are the supporters of a certain nameless senator.

Bottom line: I'll stop when they stop; until then, I'll fight fire with fire--- it'll be good practice for next November.

[eileen_d]

8. Well, I don't like the Dean TNR threads either

Still support Kerry though. I post my own opinions about Dean, not anyone else's.

[Padraig18]

9. Excellent point, eileen_d!

I wish more people would adhere to your philosophy. Personally, this is only the 2nd time I have ever posted anything using a RW (*shudder*) source; I normally prefer to use progressive sources and Democratic editorial sources, like the St. louis Post-Dispatch, e.g. .

As I said earlier, my 'point' in posting this is simply to prove how easy it is to post "Gotcha!" threads, if one uses RW shills and RNC 'talking points' as sources.

:hi:

[Padraig18]

7. "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" kick.

[helleborient]

10. The point I see...

John Kerry supporters have been relentless lately insisting that Howard Dean is a liar...

John Kerry supporters have also insisted John Kerry's attacks are deserved by Howard Dean for what has happened in the past.

Any valid questions of John Kerry's truthfulness seem warranted at this point...after threads that included literally dozens of posts insisting Howard Dean has lied.

[Egnever]

12. I am shocked!

Kerry lost any shot of having me think he was honest long ago. The man is politician through and through. I am sick of people that say what they think I want to hear, While doing whatever they damn well please in the background. Kerry is the ultimate example of this behavior in everything I see from him.

Hypocryte has a picture of kerry next to it in the dictionary or should if it doesnt.

I dont have to agree with everything my candidate says, when they lie or deliberately avoid the question in order to avoid saying something they think I dont want to hear my BS detector starts bleeping.

Every single time i have watched kerry he has made that detector go off. He may have a decent record in congress but in person he sucks.

[Padraig18]

13. Kick

[curse10]

14. TNR gives Dean a 'D' as well..

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=934

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: D

Howard Dean is in a tough spot when it comes to his campaign's finances. Once upon a time, when Dean was an upstart candidate who had yet to demonstrate a great aptitude for raising campaign cash, he pledged to participate in the public-financing system, which would entitle him to federal matching funds but would also limit his campaign spending to $45 million. But that pledge came before Dean had raked in more than $25 million in campaign contributions, and before President Bush had made clear that he was going to opt out of the public-financing system so he could raise and spend up to $170 million in the primary season. So now Dean, for obvious reasons, wants to opt out, too. The problem for Dean: how to do it without looking like a hypocrite? <snip>

[curse10]

15. Twice, actually

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=924


MOVING TARGET
by Michael Crowley

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: D

The recent flap over Dean's opposition to an assault-weapons ban when he was running for governor of Vermont in 1992 is mostly overblown. Dean was, after all, a candidate in Vermont--a state with virtually no gun violence. And even if his response to an NRA questionnaire suggested he also opposed a far more defensible national ban, that just doesn't seem so horrendous for a man who was still a fairly small-time parochial pol. This is especially true given that, today, when it really matters, Dean's views on gun control are no different than those of most mainstream Democrats. <snip>

[curse10]

16. Whoops! My bad! Three times!

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=586

[curse10]

17. How about a 'F' for ol' Howard!

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=497

[curse10]

18. Another 'D', that makes 4

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=416

[curse10]

19. 5

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=395

[curse10]

20. Six

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=382

[curse10]

22. Seven!

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=661

[curse10]

23. Eight!

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=700

[curse10]

24. Let's give him another 'F'

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=708

[Padraig18]

25. See how easy that is?

You've proved my point (see: post #6 in this thread). Good job! :thumbsup:

Now, can we discuss real issues, rather than made-up ones?

[curse10]

26. Coming from the man that posted this thread...

Irony? Yes!

I don't start threads with crap like that about Dean. And neither do most of the Kerry supporters on this board. Quit putting as all into a box and labelling it "crazy-ass Dean attackers"

[helleborient]

27. Call a Kerry supporter on ridiculous posts...

And I'll have more respect.

[Padraig18]

28. Find me a negative Dean thread that *wasn't* started by a JK supporter.

I'll wait... :eyes:

[curse10]

29. Here ya go, hope I didn't keep you waiting for too long

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=82553

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=79841

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=80869

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=80276

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=78401

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76964

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=45680

[Padraig18]

30. 7 in 23 minutes, 6 from this *month*, 1 from *september*, and 2...

... you have no way of knowing who the original poster supports. Very good. Thanks for proving my point, btw...

[curse10]

31. That was a five minute search in P&C- I'm not goingt to waste my time

trying to find posts for you... and, the supporters are very clear.

Post 1- Clark supporter. Duh.

Post 2- Kucinich supporter

Post 3- Not a Kerry supporter- as far as I know, and I am keeping track

Post 4- Kucinich supporter

Post 5- Unknown- but I don't think a Kerry supporter

Post 6- Kucinich supporter

Post 7- Gep supporter

So what point did I make exactly? That you didn't read the posts I linked to?

[Padraig18]

32. I did read them.

That's how I knew that 2 were from undeclared supporters. My point is that you found 6--- just 6--- this month out of the dozens and dozens of bash-Dean threads that have been posted since 11/1 that were *not* by Kerry supporters. That was my point.

[curse10]

34. I'd ask you to do the same search on Kerry bashing threads

but that'd be petty.

I don't need a Dean supporter to tell me who is and isn't bashing my candidate of choice.

[Padraig18]

35. Nor do I need one.

I *know* who starts the Dean-bashing threads in DU 99% of the time--- and it isn't CMB supporters. :eyes:

[curse10]

36. Oooh! Great point!

The dozen or so supporters of CMB really appreciate it. :eyes:

[indigo32]

40. Wait a minute I thought this thread was about Kerry

??????

[helleborient]

21. Welcoming John Kerry to the fold...

After his supporters insisted there was a difference between the two on this.

[Alex146]

33. So this is all a load of BS

Why was it even posted?

[Padraig18]

37. Read post #6 in the thread.

It explains the 'why' of the post.

[helleborient]

38. Basically...I think the load of garbage about Dean's lies...

Got to a Dean supporter.

[Padraig18]

39. Give the man a Kewpee doll!

:thumbsup: