HOWARD DEAN ON CIVIL RIGHTS

[ThorsteinVeblen]

The definitive resource: Howard Dean's campaign website.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights


I will appoint an Attorney General who sees our constitution not just as a document to be manipulated, ignored, and violated, but recognizes and respects it as the fabric that binds the American community together.

I will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional.

I will protect the civil rights of immigrants detained by the Department of Homeland Security.

[Ripley]

1. Didn't you get the memo?

He wants to have a public bonfire with our bill of rights.

These threads are just a way to bash without getting to the real point. Dean actually has the guts to say "I don't know the answer to that. It will be debated in the future and maybe things will be changed for the better." How hard is that to understand. Too many politicians say exactly what they will or won't do and have to eat their damn words later.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

3. Dean says it all on the website

He will prevent the expansion of the Patriot Act. He will demand the removal of the unconstitutional parts.

John Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. John Kerry voted for the attack on the 4th ammendment. John Kerry was too much of a political coward to actually think about his position and vote accordingly. He went along with the rest of the herd and betrayed America.

REINSTATE THE 4TH AMMENDMENT. REMOVE THOSE WHO VOTED TO CRUSH IT!

[Ripley]

4. Hey TV, I'm a Dean supporter.

Maybe I didn't word my post too well.

The attack thread seemed to center around his statement that he didn't say absolutely "no" but was open-minded. I think that is an honest answer. The gobblety goop about him destroying the bill of rights is just your typical smear job by the usual suspects.

[SGrande]

15. Distorted Truth if I ever heard it!

JOHN KERRY's WORDS:

Opponents say the Patriot Act represents a major assault upon civil liberties. But Kerry said Ashcroft’s biggest threats to civil liberties don’t stem from the Patriot Act itself, but other sources, such as his “misinterpretation” of a 1938 law now being used to classify some terrorism suspects as “enemy non-combatants.”

Kerry said he doesn’t support Ashcroft’s recent request for additional powers to combat terrorism.

“We need to fix the things that are wrong with the Patriot Act, addressing concerns about civil liberties and privacy,” he said

http://www.dreamwater.com/blueelf/prezKERRY.html

[valniel]

44. If you read the Presidents Oath of Office, this is a no-brainer

Dean, Bush or anybody else who is sworn in as President, swears to uphold the Constitution, so of course you will eliminate unconstitutional laws. The only question is, what does an administration think the Constitution says. And, as we have seen with the Bush administration there can be a wide range of interpretations, and that is why Dean’s view of the Bill of Rights is so important!!

[Larkspur]

6. The Flame threads by Kerry fans are a symptom of their

desperation and jealousy of Dean's success and inspiring Deanocrats intense loyalty. Dean earned his success the good old fashioned way, he earned it person-by-person and with honesty.

[SGrande]

16. There They go AGAIN

Dodging the ISSUE once more.

Dean supporters NEVER have any answers, only critics

[Cha]

25. Watch it! That's not true so don't go spouting

untruths on DU2!

[SGrande]

26. watch what?

Deanites already broke the rules by posting 4 threads on the SAME DAMN DEBATE, just moved it to a new thread.

Deanites have put us , who are questioning Dean's assault on civil liberties, down, called us names, spammed us.

Deanites have a serious problem with honest, open debate and rather than answer a chage, they call names and berate us.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

31. Whine, Whine, Whine

Are we having a wittle temper tantwum?

[LuminousX]

36. Report the Abusers

Instead of complaining that you are being attacked, report the abusers.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

38. There are no abusers

He is just whining.

[Cha]

39. watch your lies.

[GBD4]

43. When are you all going to cut it out?

<<The Flame threads by Kerry fans are a symptom of their desperation and jealousy of Dean's success and inspiring Deanocrats intense loyalty.>>

ONE, DO NOT SPEAK FOR OTHER PEOPLE. IF A POST DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JEALOUSY, DO NOT TELL READERS THAT THE POST WAS A SIGN OF JEALOUSY

TWO, IF DEAN IS SO SUPERIOR, WHY FEEL THE NEED TO ACCUSE KERRY SUPPORTERS OF JEALOUSY? SUPERIOR CANDIDATES WILL STAND OUT ALONE AND WILL WITHSTAND ANY CHALLENGES--FEAR YOUR CANDIDATE BEING ON THE DEFENSIVE AND YOU WILL EXPOSE WEAKNESS

I am a supporter of Senator Graham for President. You seem to be a supporter of former Vermont Governor Howard Dean for President. I am not bashing the other candidates and certainly not bashing candidates' supporters. If there is constructive criticism, fine, but the Democratic Party is going down if this sort of internal bickering continues. Support Howard Dean, please, but do not make these efforts of making remarks toward your fellow Democratic supporters and Democratic candidates. If you cannot accept Democrats who support, say, John Kerry, then maybe you ought to belong to a third party. Democrats believe in inclusion.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

46. Please note the number of Dean-Bashing threads

as compared to the number of Kerry-Bashing threads on this board.

Dean-Bashers outnumber Kerry-Bashers 5 to 1.

[hedda_foil]

2. Thank you

Today's flamefests du jour are even more bizarre than usual.

[Fleshdancer]

8. Perhaps they're reacting to the Slate article

http://slate.msn.com/id/2086320/

[ThorsteinVeblen]

5. Kerry voted to crush our 4th ammendment rights

Dean wants to reinstate them.

Very Simple.

[SGrande]

17. Dean wants to trash the BIll of Rights

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

29. Do you even know what the bill of rights is?

The 4th ammendment is part of it. And Kerry has tried to trash it with his support of he "necessary" Patriot Act.

Shame on John Kerry. Shame on Cowards.

[blm]

7. Wow...what a change from when he was governor.

The Hartmann piece really illustrates Dean's rightwing nature. I'm SO glad he's made this sudden shift to the left. Please send him more liberal $$$ to make sure he stays on the left.


Our Government Needs Good Citizens
by Thom Hartmann
>>>>
In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."
It’s probably a testimonial to the good job public education has done in Vermont that there wasn’t a public uprising against him (although the Montpelier newspaper’s letters-to-the-editor section was filled with invective for several weeks). Certainly this is a statement that would not have been acceptable to the people who made Vermont the second independent Caucasian-run nation in North America (after Texas). The founding fathers of Vermont, which dropped its independent-nation status to become the USA’s 14th state in 1779, knew all too well the dangers of a government unconstrained by the "technicalities" of the law. They’d seen it when the British forced them to house soldiers, shot or hung them for speaking out against the King, and allowed them to engage in commerce or own property only if they gave a portion of their wealth to England. They realized that the government has most of the guns and all the power, and that it’s only "legal technicalities" which keep any government at bay. They fought and many of them died to put those "technicalities" into place. When politicians like Dean call for "swift and certain conviction of the guilty" (which actually means "swift and certain conviction of the accused, since a person is only guilty when they’ve been convicted…at least as of the date of this writing) in the courts of the state "regardless of technicalities," I imagine our founding fathers roll over in their graves.
>>>>>

[walkon]

10. By making such a claim

your own nature is revealed!

[SGrande]

18. again, an attack and dodge, rather than an answer

Deanites are horrible, mean spirited debaters

can only call names and decounce us as "real democrats" rather than having an honest, open debate.

HOWARD DEAN:

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

37. Deanites are horrible, mean spirited debaters

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0749829818.02.LZZZZZZZ

[LuminousX]

11. Legal Technicalities

I think I support what Dean is saying here. What actions did he take after making this statement? Actions speak louder than words. Did he appoint any judges who went on to okay violations of a person's civil rights, etc?

I just may not have enough information, but his statement there - that one phrase "common sense more important than legal technicalities" rings true to me. Common sense should be applied to a lot more things instead of trying to make every situation that arises fit the language of the law written decades before the action. And I can't see anything wrong with 'quickly convict guilty criminals.' That in fact is part of the Constitution "fair and speedy trial" kind of thing.

[SGrande]

19. Its the New Democrat in him

Pragmatism, which is great IMHO.

THIS is not the issue, its how Deanites treat other DUers in debates on other issues.

[LuminousX]

30. Oh Please

If you dislike how someone has treated you, then they must of violated the DU rules and should be reported. No matter who they support.

[blm]

41. He was ultra Law and Order man...

according to the Burlinton Press reporter on Cspan who covered his career as governor. Came down on the hard right of center on that issue. That's why political observers IN Vermont scoff when Dean is portrayed as a liberal. The Progressive Party grew faster there than any other state.

btw...aren't "technicalities" in place to protect the innocent so they are less likely to be railroaded?

[lastliberalintexas]

9. Yeah but

that's just what he explicitly says today. What's more important are some fairly vague comments he made almost 2 years ago.

Sheesh, when will you Dean people learn that you're a bunch of pinko commie anti-war pacifist idiots who can't even make informed choices about which candidate to support and you've been fooled into thinking that Dean is the liberal candidate when it's really Kerry, but Dean's still too liberal to win and Kerry's more electable. Get it? :eyes:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

12. Dean is centrist

Kerry will lose the election because he is wishy washy, too far left and has no idea what he believes.

[SGrande]

21. Did that come from GOP.com ?

cause that sounds a lot like what they want people to believe.

The TRUTH is that when the American Public votes, they won't want a shrill , mean old man named howard Dean; they'll want a TALL, TOWERING elder statesman like JOHN KERRY

[ThorsteinVeblen]

32. Right

Why don't you date Kerry then, you obviously have some thing for him.

[LuminousX]

33. Nobody

Knows what the American public wants until the American public votes. We will have our answer soon enough. No one expects any candidates to drop out before the caucases and primaries so statements like the ones made above (Dean is the Man, no Kerry is) are fruitless.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

34. True.

x

[LuminousX]

13. Actually

I thought we were ultra-liberal fascists who claim to channel Thomas Jefferson at will and thus deserve to be the only people called: Democrats.

[lastliberalintexas]

22. I don't know

since the criticism changes from day to day- or post to post even- it's hard to keep up.

And I'm sorry TV- I should have made it clearer that I'm a Dean supporter myself! Guess my wonderful caustic wit did not translate to the written word. :-)

[ThorsteinVeblen]

35. I missed the sarcasm

I see it now!

[Gigi]

24. Kerry vs. Dean

There's no contest--it is DEAN. Three weeks ago I was at a BBQ
and six people (including one poor sap who voted for Bush) are supporting Dean. These are well-educated, well-read, well-informed
DEMOCRATS with money. And they support Dean. I have seen at least
a dozen DEAN bumper stickers in the last month. My parents (in their
70's) are excited by him. He was appeal and he has tapped into that
anger, that collective anger, which is starting to fester among the
populace. Kerry reminds me of Bradley---two intelligent men who might have passion but just cannot express it.

[SGrande]

14. THE REAL HOWARD DEAN

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

20. FROM THE WEBSITE:

I will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional.

[SGrande]

23. "quickly convict guilty criminals"

-In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals-


http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml

[ThorsteinVeblen]

27. No, we should release guility criminals instead

[LuminousX]

28. You're right

convictions and trials should be slow. We should keep people locked up for lengthy periods of time, denying them the rights to a quick and speedy trial. sheesh.

[genius]

40. This is a frightening attack on the rights of defendents

If there are quick trials and innocent individuals are convicted and executed, that may sit well with Dean but anyone here could be a victim of those quick trials and executions. The techincalities are designed to protect the innocent from police abuses. I guess some people like a police state.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

45. Give me a break

...

[genius]

42. What would JFK or Martin Luther Kin, Jr. think of the candidates

I kind of thing they would support Kucinich.

[Nicholas_J]

47. Sure

I wish you guys could actually find soources showing what Dena has actually done in the past, than crap from Dean for America, stating what he SAYS he would do if elected.

Give me some PROOF he WILL do it.

Dean is the ultimate monday morning quarterback.

Cristising the way the game is played in the major league when he RETIRED from the minors.

Stuff from from Dean for American should be banned as PROOF of what Dean really represents.

[LuminousX]

48. "Stuff from from Dean for American should be banned as PROOF of what Dean

That would just be weird. You are saying that a person cannot speak for himself?

I admit, the case is much stronger when backed up with historical examples, but in some cases historical examples don't exist. I think the true historical example we should be looking at is where Dean has said he'd do X and then didn't attempt to or did the opposite of X instead.

We already know you believe Dean to be a liar, after seeing the quality of his soul after looking into his eyes, and all that. Many of us don't have any reason not to believe his stated positions. Of course, where his stated position doesn't coincide with his historical position, he needs to explain why. And has, to some degree of satisfaction. His death penalty stance is wishy-washy. He sort of knew he had to support it to be electable in the South, but it doesn't match well with his actual history. Oh well, I'm a forgiving individual.

[dpbrown]

49. Dean is unelectable

There are two strategies for winning.

The DLC strategy says: the pie is always shrinking, and 40% always vote one way and 40% always vote the other way, so engage in focus-group politics to snare enough of the 20% in the "middle" to win.

The "conviction politician" says: people are disenchanted and will respond to a healthy, populist message, and that will bring non-traditional voters to the polls, thereby dipping into the other, bigger pie of people who don't vote.

Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, and Lieberman subscribe to the first theory.

Kucinich subscribes to the second.

Dean subscribes to neither. His followers are "proud" of pissing off both the so-called centrists, as well as dissing the "thinking liberals." His entire support structure, so far, is made up very vocal activists in the middle between liberals and centrists.

There's no way that kind of constituency will translate into a win against Bush, a guy who got enough votes to steal the election by "being a guy someone could have a beer with."

It's time for a conviction politician to win. While Kerry is making some moves in that direction, Kucinich is already there. He wins in a conservative district filled with "Reagan Republicans."

Kucinich is the politician the people have been waiting for. Wake up and smell the new day in America.

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. Are Dean's words making his supporters uncomfortable?

Are Dean's words making his supporters uncomfortable? This thread seems to have been started to divert attention from another in which he is quoted saying some troubling things:

"Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely"

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

"We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served, and he was the man who murdered a 15-year-old girl and raped her and then left her for dead and she was dead. So life without parole doesn’t work either. If life without parole worked 100 percent of the time, there’d be no need for the death penalty because I agree with the bishop. Vengeance should never be a piece of this. As human beings, we all want to get revenge. That should never part of public policy, to get revenge, but the trouble is that life without parole is not perfect either and the victims in that case are 15- and 12-year-old girls. That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn’t commit the crime."

http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1