Molly Ivins Backing Dean

[Khephra]

I'm watching the replay of her book signing on from the 9th on CSPAN2, and she was asked who she was backing. She answered that she was backing Dean.

Damn smart lady!

:-)

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

1. Excellent!

I knew I've had her quote as my signature for a reason!

[Jacobin]

2. This would be almost inevitable and it is very good news

Molly knows Texas and Texans. There are populist streaks in its make-up as in the south and midwest as a whole. Kerry would have real problems there and in the south. (trust me on that...I listen to my friends and neighbors) While I don't think Smirk has a chance of losing Texas in 2004, the south is a different matter entirely.

Not to mention which fact: Dean Rocks!!!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. Another crypto-republican for Dean.

Damnit!

[mopinko]

6. come on, molly????

a crypto-republican????? explain yourself puleeze!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. Dean and his supporters are crypto-republicans.

Or haven't you heard?












( I'm using )

[madfloridian]

8. Ok, I support Dean, so what is a crypto-republican?

I have a right to know what I am being called.

:evilgrin:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. Here ya go.

cryp·to ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krpt)
n. pl. cryp·tos
One who covertly supports a certain doctrine, group, or party.


You probably have the Republican part figured out... :D


(I know you're kidding, but I'm sure there are others who need it spelled out)

[madfloridian]

11. Ha Ha Ha! So that is what I am.

And all this time I thought was just a plain old Democrat. I really never heard that term, but I have heard others.
:evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

56. ...and that's the first time I've heard Molly called ANY type of Repub...

Molly Ivins is a long-time Democratic icon. It's a little frightening how far left somebody would have to be to compare her to Republicans. I'm sure there'll be some who try because of this, though...

[redqueen]

64. To be fair, I've heard her slammed before...

for slamming Democrats as well as Republicans when some liberals thought it wasn't deserved.

[MercutioATC]

70. Yes, but likening her to Republicans? Molly's practically a Dem deity.

Plain spoken, yes. Opinionated, yes? A DINO? Hardly.

[Dudley_DUright]

4. I was watching that replay earlier

My favorite part was when she said "Whatever your opinion is of George Bush the man, there is no denying that he has made a hell of a mess of the country" to resounding applause from the audience.

[wryter2000]

5. Go, Molly!

This is good to hear.

[Rose Siding]

10. She probably wishes she could be cynical

-it has to have been hard taking such a close look at so much of the pain that Bush policy has caused for the people in her books. But she can't outrun the hope :-)

snip>
In this country, we have the most extraordinary luck -- we are the heirs to the greatest political legacy any people have ever received. Our government is not THEM, our government is US (with room for improvement, to be sure). All this right-wing propaganda about how the government is The Enemy, the government needs to be strangled, needs to be starved, needs to be hocked off, as though schools and hospitals were horrible things -- it's all nuts.

It's our government, we can still make it do what we want it to when we take the time and put in the energy it takes to work with other people, organize, campaign and vote --we can still make the whole clumsy, money-driven system work for us. And it's high time we did so.

http://www.funnytimes.com/notfunny/20030916MI.html

[snoochie]

12. Yes, poor Molly, bless her little heart

I read back in August what she had to say about DK:

"Representative Dennis Kucinich I naturally like, but consider a no-hoper. Can't elect a guy that short and skinny, not to mention vegetarian. Accuse me of cynicism in my old age, but I am interested in winning this one. Decent, kind, excellent: no Elvis, no hope."
link

Lovely logic, isn't it?

But then, to be fair, I suppose if one is old, and has lost all hope of ever getting anything different than the status quo, that it's easy to quash your dreams for a better tomorrow, as well as the dreams of your countrymen. Old people for the most part do become more risk averse as they near death, after all.

It's just a shame she seems to have forgotten what she said about HD in the same article:

"On a recent visit to Austin, Dean sounded alarmingly moderate, appealing to the centrist vote. Sheesh, what good is Dean if he doesn't pull the whole field to the left?"

[library_max]

14. "What good is Dean if he doesn't pull the whole field to the left?"

Well, he might get elected President. That'd be good. Pulling the whole field to the left gets us four more years of Bush.

[Padraig18]

15. If we don't WIN, it doesn't matter if our candidate is liberal, or not.

It's about electability, even though I know that word causes Kucitizens to cringe and/or shriek. DK is an excellent person, a nice guy, etc., but he is so much further to the left than the American electorate, that his nomination would make 1972 look like a win, in comparison. We'd get 3 million Green votes, and lose 10 million Democrats and Independents.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Here's a secret, Padraig18...

Dean is fiscally conservative AND socially LIBERAL. A potent tandem, imo. I'm pretty much for letting anyone do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt or interfere with someone else's right to do so, as well. And if you're gonna buy something, you better be able to pay for it.

That's why I'm fiscally conservative and socially LIBERAL, too.







Edit- didn't spell "LIBERAL" in caps PROUDLY enough.

[killbotfactory]

19. Lots of people are social liberal/fiscal conservative

I've been hearing for years how they would love someone who's responsible with money but not a bible-thumping republican.

That's why i don't understand why people think Dean's unelectable.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. They know he's electable...

...he's just not their horse. Most will be on board in a couple of months IF* he wins the nomination.




* not-counting-my-chickens-before-they're-hatched IF. But he will be. Doh!

[Upfront]

25. Me To

Dean rang my bell the first time he described his thinking.

[GreenArrow]

31. Fiscal conservatism and social liberalism

What, then, does Dean plan on cutting from the budget, if not social programs?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. #1 Get rid of the tax cuts. All of them.

That's $1.2T over 10 years.

I know where you're headed with this, I think, so here's my nutshell thesis.

As social progressives we have to be willing to pay taxes. The bigger the taxes, the bigger the social programs. However, the Pugs have brainwashed the American people over the last 20 years that all taxes are evil. This is their mantra. The only way to show people that they aren't necessarily evil is to show them the value of those programs. This is where UHC comes in. It would be the largest social program in history but it touches the lives of nearly everyone. This is the linchpin. Get some semblance of universal healthcare in place and I think we can start to turn this trainwreck around. No Liberal is going to turn this around in one or two terms. It took 20 years to get here, it'll take 20 to get us back. I think the effects from a UHC package will have value greater than just the security it provides and the savings it will create. People will see that "government" can work for them, not against them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're suggesting that balancing the budget (fiscal conservatism) will necessarily result in the gutting of social services. Iow, less money, less programs. This, I believe, is a fallacy. If you don't balance the budget the costs of interest come in to play, devaluing your cash on hand even further. At this moment our national budget is the largest in the history of the world. And we've got social services coming out of our ass, right? Nope. We pay appx. $180B a year in interest on our debt(to our friends the bankers). That money alone would pay for UHC, Head Start, Special Ed plus many, many more programs. And the rich bankers don't get richer on our dime. This is the great Republican scam, cut taxes, run up the debt, and payoff their buddies(themselves) with interest payments. This is why the debt is always huge under Pug administrations. It's not a coincidence.

It's the same as anyone's household finances, only writ large. Hundreds of dollars a month in interest payments on credit cards(the avg. American holds $15k in cc debt) limits your ability to spend your money on other things. This is why I believe in fiscal conservatism. Because it's liberating.

I hope I addressed your basic point. If not, let me know.

[JohnKleeb]

58. Will he be willing to cut from the DoD

IMO theres a lot junk there. Just a question. I am not a big fan of social liberalism and fiscal conservatism but its not the worst in the world.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Unfortunately, he's only talked about controlling it by keeping it

at the rate of inflation. He's wrong on this. And DK is right on the money.

We spend as much money on Defense as the next 20 highest Defense-funded countries combined. This is obviously overkill. We could "get by" with spending $225-275B a year. That's a reduction of $200B.

I wish he would reconsider his position on this. Can't win 'em all, I guess.







On edit- What's your beef with fiscal conservatism? I layed out my case in a nutshell, show me where you think I'm wrong. If your ideas are better, I'll steal 'em! :D

[JohnKleeb]

66. oh on fiscal conservatism, I dont hate it but its not my thing

not my thing really. I am a tax and spend democrat :D lol, I admit it. No I aint got no beef with fiscal conservatism, I just prefer :shrug: I cant explain it.I think a balanced budget is a worthly goal but its not my primary goal, and I think thats a goal of fiscal conservatism. I wish he would too, it would really give him a high boosting in my stock. I agree it is overkill what we spend on Defense. Youre gonna have to cut from somewhere I guess to balance the budget right? or raise taxes :shrug: I dont know, this is why I wont be a politican :D. I think the DoD needs to be cutted from, all these weapon systems we have really are kinda useless. Thanks though, balancing the budget should be a goal I guess but there are more important things than that IMO.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. Balancing the budget frees up $150,000,000,000+ a year

in interest payments for those programs you want! It's a good thing, John, trust me.

[redqueen]

68. I doubt...

that John or Kucinich or anyone thinks balancing the budget is a bad thing.

Where the disagreement comes in is in HOW it's done.

On the backs of the poor? The rich? A mix?

I think we've all seen how it's gone the last 30 years, and that's why Kucinich is touching a nerve.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Well on electablity I really want your crystal ball bad

You seem to forget that Nixon was a moderate by 1972 standards. Thats all you got, is a hunch that you think he will lose, thats all. Why would those 10 million democrats or indepedents go republican as a result or they that foolish, I may be far left as they get but I do plan to stay democratic. No I dont shriek when people say that, I look at you and think, you are basically asking us to give up what we beleive in. BTW the way the American elecotrate is drives me nuts personally, makes me consider Canada or somethin. I do plan to support the democratic nominee but I wont give up my values in supporting my candiate of choice in the primary. I wont shriek on electablity but I will eye it, because we havent got crystal balls. When I chose my candiate this past June, I was thinking about a guy who represented my vision, and that man is Dennis Kucinich. I am idealistic and very stubborn I wont deny it. I am not that mad really but it seems that you are basically telling us Kucinich supporters to give up just because our guy is unelectablity just because he is liberal. Sorry for being stubborn and jerky but christ the reasons why Kucinich is purportely unelectable like his size and such and his liberalism are a shame, doesnt anyone wanna do something about it. I tell you, I know nothing of what the future will be, but I would like to turn the tide. People may ask why but I simply ask why not. We are all idealists to a degree some more than others, I happen to be very idealistic. I am, and wont deny it. I will not give up the fight before the real fight has began though. Look dont take this the wrong way, I do plan to support the nominee but I am sick of superficiality. I know this wont change any minds so why do it, shrug. Always a proud Kucinich supporter, JHK. Its really hard for me to put this in words honest to god, so pardon me if I didnt get my point across good, I am not that good of an arguerer.

[library_max]

28. There's no point in rehashing the electability argument here.

Go ahead and support Kucinich in the primaries. There's no harm in that. Molly herself made the slogan, "Vote your heart in the primaries, vote your head in November," which sounds like what you're planning to do. This subthread got started because someone asked what good Dean is if he doesn't pull the other candidates to the left. The answer was that he would be more likely to get elected if he didn't, and so on. The swipe at Kucinich was unnecessary IMO, even though Padraig and I usually agree about most things.

[redqueen]

29. LMAO!

The 'someone' who asked what good Dean was is MOLLY IVINS!

That's hilarious!!!!

So, she admits Dean's too far to the right, and that Kucinich is the man but has 'no Elvis' (gag me, Molly... did you REALLY write this?!), so she's now supporting Dean in the primaries? I think NOT!

LOL!

Now I'm going to have to write her and clear this up!

[library_max]

32. Go ahead and check if you want to.

I don't suppose you'd consider the possibility that she might have changed her mind sometime between August and November. Smart people do that sometimes, you know.

[redqueen]

33. Do you not realize...

that what you're saying she's changed her mind about, is whether or not you should vote your heart / conscience in the primary and your head in the general?

Or do you think Dean's moved to the left since then?

Or do you think she's decided 'ah screw trying to revers the Democrats' march to the right, I guess I kinda like it, after all!'

:silly:

[library_max]

34. Or maybe, just maybe

she's using her own brain to think her own thoughts, instead of choosing from the menu of options that you're trying to project onto her. Radical idea (other people having ideas of their own, different from yours), but barely possible, eh?

[redqueen]

35. LMAO!

So you're discounting her own words, and inserting your interpretations, then? Well I can see that you'd prefer that, wouldn't you?

Lovely.

[library_max]

36. Interesting.

Apparently you're under the delusion that post #33 includes anything at all in Molly Ivins's own words. Actually, those were your words, not hers.

[redqueen]

37. No, actually.

The only part that was my words was the part where she all of a sudden decided that Dean was 'good' despite his lack of leftishness.

The rest was all Molly.

I suppose I could dig the quotes up, but I thought we were all familiar with Molly's work.

Would you like that? Shall I pull up her direct quotes? If you need / require it I'll do it, but I would rather not...

Let me know. :)

[library_max]

38. Go for it.

Remember, the post in question is post #33, and none of this, "Well, these words are close, it means the same thing" stuff. Either it's a quote or it isn't. Either the words were hers or they weren't.

[redqueen]

40. Actually it's only one quote I need.

Snoochie already provided a link to the editorial in which she says "what good is dean..."

I just need to provide the 'vote your heart in the primary' part, which can be found here.

"My voting philosophy is simple: In the primaries, go with your heart; in the finals, vote your brain."

So, therefore, if a few months ago she was of the opinion that Dean was not very good, and that Kucinich, while he has 'no Elvis' is better, then wouldn't logic dictate that she would intend to vote for Kucinich in the primaries? Seriously... can you come to any other conclusion based on the woman's own words?

Thus, the only way we could think that she would back Dean in the primaries is if she'd decided that since -- when was that article from... August? -- since then she'd come to believe that Dean was really more left than she thought, and therefore her previous comment ("what good is Dean...") was moot.

Or, third, that she'd decided that whether or not the party moved to the left wasn't really all that important after all, so just get onboard the hype... er, I mean Dean train.

[library_max]

41. You're still trying to put words in her mouth.

You can't seem to distinguish between logic and your own opinion. Too bad.

Reread post #33. There's not a statement there that is in Molly Ivins's own words. She never said that she'd "changed her mind about . . . you should vote your heart / conscience in the primary and your head in the general." She never said she thought Dean had moved to the left. And she never said "'ah screw trying to revers the Democrats' march to the right, I guess I kinda like it, after all!'"

If you still can't get it, for-get it.

[redqueen]

44. It's called deductive logic.

I'll leave it at that. :)

[library_max]

45. Take a course in deductive logic, or read a book about it.

You'll be astonished at the difference between how deductive logic works and how you seem to think it works.

[redqueen]

46. Done it. n/t

[library_max]

48. Okay, so

projecting your opinions on Ms. Ivins and calling it "deductive logic" was a lie and not just a mistake, then.

[redqueen]

49. LOL!

weak.

Read what she said a few more times.

Here's a helpful tip: paraphrasing is not projecting. :)

[library_max]

50. Okay, Mr. Deductive Logic

Kindly explain the constructs you used. Syllogism or enthymeme? Please give details of the deductive steps you took from the actual thing Ms. Ivins said or wrote to the conclusions you drew.

"Paraphrasing" somebody else's arguments to discredit them is as common a tactic as it is cheap and dishonest.

[redqueen]

51. LMAO

Even more...

If you understood the terms, you'd see it was clearly ethymeme. Also the two are not mutually exclusive so...

Geez I'm almost glad I checked this thread. :eyes:

Also please note, for future reference, most 'queen's are addressed with a feminine title, as opposed to a masculine (e.g. 'Mr.')

What I'm wondering (but you don't have to answer, really you don't) is why you think my paraphrasing is 'discrediting' Molly Ivins.

:crazy:

[library_max]

62. Reread post #33

There isn't an enthymeme in a barrel of it. If you think there is, kindly quote it and identify the assumed premise. And the purpose of that post clearly was to discredit Ms. Ivins's decision to endorse Howard Dean. That she has done so has been verified by other posters. At least read your own posts, clever-clogs.

[redqueen]

63. hehehe! You sure have amusing insults...

I'll give you that! (Clever-clogs... hehe - I like it!)

The premises are based on Molly's statements, to wit:

- vote your conscience in the primary.

- naturally she likes Kucinich

- what good is Dean?

The conclusion (I'll pick the most likely, since I posted three possibilities) is that she has given up on her advocation of going with her conscience, preferring to pick the most 'electable' due to growing risk aversion (thanks snoochie!)

Do you disagree that that's a logical conclusion from those premises? Or do you say one of the premises is flawed? It's possible, after all, but simply stomping your feet and saying 'no it isn't' isn't exactly an argument, is it? (Monty Python, anyone?)

I'm not saying she hasn't endorsed him (if that's what you mean by 'discrediting her endorsement'). That was never said. I'm simply wondering what changed in her thinking, is all. :)

And by the by, discrediting an endorsement does not equate to discrediting the person doing the endorsing, even if I was attempting to discredit her endorsement, which I'm not.

[library_max]

69. Sure learned a lot in that deductive reasoning class, didn't you?

<sarcasm off>

So, let's do this.
Major premise: M. Ivins said "Vote your heart in the primaries, vote your head in November."
Minor or understood premise: M. Ivins has endorsed Howard Dean.
Conclusion: ?????????????

None of the conclusions you have proposed follows deductively. They may seem reasonable TO YOU, but they are not deductive conclusions.

For deductive logic, the conclusion must follow directly from the premises. Example:
Major premise: Republicans are all going to hell.
Minor premise: George W. Bush is a Republican.
Conclusion: George W. Bush is going to hell.
Now, you can argue with either of the premises, but the conclusion follows from them inescapably. It isn't implied. It doesn't require any kind of interpretation. It doesn't involve a list of options.

There isn't any other kind of deductive logic. The enthymeme only treats the minor premise as unstated and understood. The conclusion must still follow directly, virtually mathematically, from the two premises. "Makes sense to me" isn't deductive logic.

I will repeat that the most rational conclusion anyone can draw (although it is NOT a matter of deductive logic) is that Molly Ivins knows best her own reasoning for endorsing Howard Dean. Making up quotes and ascribing them to her is cheap and contemptible.

If you must have a syllogism, here's the most valid one:
Major premise: M. Ivins said "Vote your heart in the primaries, vote your head in November."
Minor premise: M. Ivins has endorsed Howard Dean in the primaries.
Conclusion: In her heart, M. Ivins prefers Howard Dean over the other candidates, including Dennis Kucinich.
I say "most valid" because it's not truly valid. Deductive logic does not properly apply to people's motivations, which are complex and not ruled by straightforward mathematical principles.

By the way, I am not a Dean supporter myself. But I despise people who deliberately misrepresent the views of others to make debaters' points and I despise people who use "logic" and "common sense" as another name for their own personal opinions and prejudices. So I leave you to "deduce" how I feel about your posts in this string.

[Khephra]

43. She said it during the book signing portion of the program

to one of the people in line. I don't know if she'll "officially" back Dean, but she did say it.

[JohnKleeb]

30. Thats right you remembered

Thats fine. I just havent got the crystal ball :D yet. I was being semi serious, semi smartass. It was a condescending thing to do IMO, I know he hates it when people do it to Dean, you see I though I get pissed as anyone does I dont believe in the way of, you criticize my candiate I go at yours. Look the reason why I reacted the way I did is because I found the attiude very condescending. I believe in what Ivins is sayin there. From what Ive read, McGovern didnt lose because he was too liberal, he lost because of how he was made out and such. I really dont see why these swing voters would vote Bush after seeing what we have seen these past years.

[CMT]

13. Wonderful

I love the way she lambasts Bush.

[slinkerwink]

16. WOOOHOOOO!!!!

That's so effing great that a fellow Smithie is supporting Dean!!!

:bounce: :toast: :party: :bounce:

[killbotfactory]

17. Someone should tell her he's unelectable!

The man is obviously too angry to be president!



Fear the ANGER!

[raysr]

20. Illegal cookie

Dean for America just tried to set an illegal cookie in my Opera Browser while reading these posts!

[helleborient]

24. How many other legit companies try to do that...?

Cookies are commonplace on the web from plenty of legit companies.

[dfong63]

23. i'm sure Molly Ivins will be a powerful voice for Dean

[LuminousX]

26. So, Molly Ivins is a Rovian agent?

Molly Ivins can't think for herself? When did she drink the Kool-Aid? When did Svengali Dean have a chance to mesmerize her into becoming one of his legion of evil?

[beyurslf]

27. If Molly Ivins is a Republican operative

then we need more of them just like her. She can bash Bush with the best of them!

[mzmolly]

39. I read that in a column of hers and heard her say as much in Minneapolis..

:toast:

In her column she said she had been 'considering' Dean, so I am glad to hear it affirmed!

WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO!

[LuminousX]

42. Dean and Molly seem to be cut from similar cloth

Shot From the Hip kind of people. I can see why she would like him.

[faithfulcitizen]

60. Are you sure? saw her too...

in Indiana, when asked by audience, she said she didn't know, went through all candidates, then got to Dean at end and said, "and Carl Rove is just salivating at the chance" or something very similar. :shrug:

[no name no slogan]

47. I'd hardly call it a "ringing endorsement"

...since she hasn't put out a statement or press release about it yet.

[mzmolly]

53. She's written about it, so I'd say she's had 'press releases'

She has also noted it on several occasions. It's getting tougher and toughter to call Dean supporters 'ignorant' now huh? tsk tsk. ;)

[no name no slogan]

55. stop putting words in my mouth

Where in the above post did I call you or other Deanies "ignorant"? Why don't you stop putting words in my mouth and concentrate on what's coming out of YOUR mouth instead.

Comparing her "endorsement" to that of other noted authors who have endorsed candidates this year (say, Howard Zinn's endorsement of Kucinich), I'd hardly call it ringing. All I've read from her (and heard her say) is that she doesn't like any of the nine, but she dislikes Howard Dean the least.

Like I said, hardly a ringing endorsement. :eyes:

[redqueen]

65. Did she really?

She dislikes Dean the least? Wow... I'd love to hear what she had to say about Kucinich on that day!

From what I've read from Molly, snoochie seems to have nailed her problem the best. She has a good heart and is a smart lady, but seems to be following the crowd on this one. Sadly.

[drfemoe]

52. woo hoo

She is like an Ann Richards for this generation, only better.

[Scott Lee]

54. MegaCRYPTOdittos, Deanies! *wink wink*

The fox is in the golden carriage....repeat....the fox is in the golden carriage....

[Myra]

61. Wow! That's huge.

When she was in Seattle about a month ago
she said she hadn't committed yet.
I wonder if some particular issue tilted her
over the line, or if she was just waiting longer
to say.

Did she say what the deciding factor was?
(Sorry if I missed that info in this thread.
I scrolled by the usual post-post pissing contest.)