If Dean can't beat Bush, none of them can...

[KaraokeKarlton]

Here's why...

1)The others have to resort to trying to "tag-team" Dean to gain any traction, and that doesn't even work.

2)Dean is getting more contributions from more people than the others.

3)Dean isn't afraid to speak his mind. Most of the others are at best, too cautious and at worst just plain wimpy in this area.

4)Dean is leading or doing very well in more of the polls than anyone else.

5)All the nasty attacks against Dean don't stick. The same can't be said of the other candidates. If the Insiders can't repel "Bush Lite" then how are they going to repel what Rove throws at them. Dean has proven himself capable of brushing off the manure and actually gaining strength from being attacked. None of the others have this quality...and it will be NECESSARY against Bush & Company.

If Dean really can't beat Bush, and none of the other candidates can beat Dean common sense tells you that NONE of the others can beat Bush, either.

The top two left standing at the end of the primaries MUST be the nominee and the VP pick because they will be the two strongest and the best hope against Bush. The primaries are attracting people who don't normally vote in primaries this time. It's NOT just the "liberal base"...it is general election voters who are getting involved and even some apathetic voters who have long since given up on getting involved...they are fed up and they are NOT going to take it anymore. They will also outnumber the typical "liberal base" in the voting booth. This election, the primaries are going to be more like the general election than ever before.

To discount Dean as unelectable is foolish and self-defeating.

KaraokeK...a swing voter who will be voting in my first ever primary election.

[LuminousX]

1. My view...

If no one can stop Dean, then they wouldn't be able to stop Bush making Dean the best chance we have against Bush. If someone is able to halt Dean, reverse the trends, than that candidate will have an excellent chance against Bush.

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. Yup, exactly my view

But manipulating super delegates to select a nominee the people didn't choose doesn't count as someone beating Dean. If someone can beat him honestly and earn the nomination, I'm all for them getting it. But if the Democratic leadership tries to pull a Supreme Court-like Selection, that person will NOT win and it'll be another 4 years of Bush. I don't think voters will tolerate another betrayal and back stabbing. The voters choice must NOT be ignored.

[helleborient]

4. No, the super-delegate route is too much like..

Adlai Stevenson being drafted to defeat Estes Kefauver for the Democratic nomination in 1952.

Stevenson was a great man but not a great presidential candidate.

[Skwmom]

33. My view

1)The others have to resort to trying to "tag-team" Dean to gain any traction, and that doesn't even work. - The other candidates have done a weak job of tag teaming Dean. In addition, the press has given him a pass (as even the Dean cheerleader The ABC Note admitted the other day).

2)Dean is getting more contributions from more people than the others. - Why shouldn't he. He's got the Bush supporters contributing to his campaign.

3)Dean isn't afraid to speak his mind. Most of the others are at best, too cautious and at worst just plain wimpy in this area. - Dean does much more than speak his mind. He lies about the other candidates, constantly runs his mouth and then has to apologize, acts like a bully, demeaning and belittling opponents.

4)Dean is leading or doing very well in more of the polls than anyone else. Love the Zogby polls that include push polls within the polls. In addition, nationally Dean has not pulled away from the pack. Furthermore, the right wing media helping to boost his poll numbers is nothing to brag about.

5)All the nasty attacks against Dean don't stick. The same can't be said of the other candidates. If the Insiders can't repel "Bush Lite" then how are they going to repel what Rove throws at them. Dean has proven himself capable of brushing off the manure and actually gaining strength from being attacked. None of the others have this quality...and it will be NECESSARY against Bush & Company. - You people are in for a reality check if Dean makes it to the general election. Dean and his campaign have gotten cocky thinking they can say one thing one day and another thing the next. Well Rove has it all on tape and unlike the Dems he'll know how to use it. The sad thing is that when Rove attacks Dean much of it will be the truth. Just showing Dean chanting you have the power and this is not about electing Howard Dean as president but us as president is enough to scare off a significant portion of the general election. Unfortunately Dean will bring the Democratic party down with him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. I disagree

1) Dean has NOT gotten a pass from the media. It's all in how he reacts to the negative things that have been said about him. He comes out with a statement to set the record straight and he moves on rather than harping on it and getting stuck in the mire. He knows how to control the conversation and frame the race in the way he wants it to be framed. This is leadership at it's best.

2) Um, if this were really the source of so much of Dean's funding then why isn't Sharpton rolling in the dough? Afterall, the Republicans were rallying for him to be the nominee for months before they even heard of Dean.

3) I haven't heard Dean lie once. I've seen him offend people with ballsy comments that he said a bit too bluntly, but not lie. I have, however, witnessed with my own two eyes during debates instances when both Kerry and Gephardt have blatantly lied about my state of Vermont and my last governor. The only time I have seen Dean "belittle" one of his opponents was at one of the debates when Gephardt made the choice to attack Dean using, surprise...lies. Dean chewed him a new asshole as he had every right to do. Gephardt deserved it. Dean "apologized" on three instances. First, to Edwards for making the comment that Edwards voted for the war and then acted like he opposed it. Dean had not heard Edwards' speech to hear that he stood his ground on his vote. It was an honest mistake, not an intentional lie. Next Dean apologized for referring to Graham as not being a top tier candidate. Again, that was not a lie and Dean apologized if he had offended Graham. And then he apologized for offending or hurting anyone's feelings for mentioning the Confederate Flag. He didn't apologize for his belief that he should try to get as many votes as he can by pointing out that Democrats are the better party, and he shouldn't have had to apologize at all...but his opponents decided to do a little race baiting.

4) I'm not even talking about Zogby polls. I'm talking about individual state polls. Since when is Zogby the only one doing polls? Furthermore, where is your proof that anyone is doing push polling? Link, please. I expect documentation for such accusations.

5) Rove will be no more successful than the national GOP figures were against Dean in 2000. He's already battled the religious right and he's already beat them. Been there, done that and got the victory to show for it. Anyone who had a front row seat for the Civil Unions backlash and the Take Back Vermont vs Howard Dean show will tell you with confidence that Dean can handle anything Rove can come up with and then some...AND still win.

[dsc]

37. In fairness Dean did misspeak at a debate on Social security

and raising the retirement age. He apologized for that. As for the link Hell will freeze over before you get that link.

[LuminousX]

40. Flawed View

1)The others have to resort to trying to "tag-team" Dean to gain any traction, and that doesn't even work. - The other candidates have done a weak job of tag teaming Dean. In addition, the press has given him a pass (as even the Dean cheerleader The ABC Note admitted the other day).

This is a matter of opinion.

2)Dean is getting more contributions from more people than the others. - Why shouldn't he. He's got the Bush supporters contributing to his campaign.

And the proof of this is where? Oh, that's right, you aren't stating fact, you are stating pure speculation that isn't even backed up by qualitative evidence.

3)Dean isn't afraid to speak his mind. Most of the others are at best, too cautious and at worst just plain wimpy in this area. - Dean does much more than speak his mind. He lies about the other candidates, constantly runs his mouth and then has to apologize, acts like a bully, demeaning and belittling opponents.

Demeaning? Bully? Evidence of this behavior? His mouth gets him in trouble, I fully agree. I applaud Bush-lite but it isn't presidential.

4)Dean is leading or doing very well in more of the polls than anyone else. Love the Zogby polls that include push polls within the polls. In addition, nationally Dean has not pulled away from the pack. Furthermore, the right wing media helping to boost his poll numbers is nothing to brag about.

Again... proof?


Pure speculation, not backed by any substance.

[Brucey]

2. I think Dean is out front because he was the first

to come on strong. But Clark had lots of support before people even knew who he was. It's too early to say who could beat Bush. Right now it doesn't seem like anyone can. But it is early. Lots can still happen. I wish we had a candidate that was a mix of all of them.

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. Actually, if Democrats would stop trying to sabotage Dean

there is no way Bush could ever beat him. With all the new voters Dean has brought in, and all the moderate Republicans and swing voters who are fed up with Bush who like Dean's stand on fiscal responsibility and guns...if the usual Dem voters just supported his candidacy (instead of attacking it) there is no way in hell Bush could win. It seems the DNC and DLC would rather keep trying the same old losing techniques over and over again instead of trying something new that has actually caught on. It's as if they want to lose.

[GreenArrow]

17. "Actually, if Democrats would stop trying to sabotage Dean"

The trouble is, that not all Democrats LIKE Dean. Personally, I find him abrasive and disengenous. I've little doubt though, that if Dean is nominated, most Democrats will fall in behind him--with varying degrees of trust and enthusiasm.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. I don't have a problem with some people not liking him

but I do have a problem with the DLC, DNC and others trying to sabotage his campaign. If he is the nominee (which he will be IF the leadership doesn't select against the voters' will) they are using an awful lot of lies and misleading information to try to turn their own party members against him. It's dumb and if they lose they have no one to blame but themselves for being idiots.

[xultar]

18. I would have said the same thing but I would have used CLARK

instead of DEAN but hey.

[paulk]

34. It's nice that all those swing voters like Dean's positions

on fiscal responsibility and guns. I'm a registered Democrat and I don't like his positions on fiscal responsibility (rescinding the entire tax cut), and guns. And several other of his positions as well.
This is why I don't support his candidacy - it has nothing to do with the "same old losing techniques".

You're encouraging Democrats to vote against their core beliefs and support someone who appeals to moderate Republicans and swing voters -presumably because he can beat Bush. I would rather support a candidate whose views are closer to my own - who can also beat Bush.

"It's as if they want to lose"

This is a pretty subjective opinion on your part. National polls have shown that six of the Dem. candidates can beat Bush - with Dean actually doing the worst of those six.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. You believe in fiscal irresponsibility?

Listen, Vermont's liberals used to hate this about Dean too...until they saw the results. Now even Vermont's liberals are in favor of fiscal responsibility. When you handle money properly you end up saving money on interest payments, your bond rating goes up and you get to do great things like offer insurance to 99% of the children. You get to start new programs like Success by Six that has reduced child abuse by well over half and sexual abuse by over 70%. You get welfare reform that is actually helpful and good for those receiving the help. I know this because I was in the program both before Dean's reform and after. Before the reforms I was stuck in a horrible trap that made me feel like a piece of dirt. As soon as the changes took place I actually got the support and help I needed to overcome the barriers I faced and finally got entirely off assistance. As for guns...I am pro gun. I come from a rural area where guns are a huge part of our lifestyle. Poor people hunt to help feed their kids. In places like Colorado and Wyoming you have a lot of Mountain Lions and the like in rural areas. If you don't have a gun, you're as good as dead if you meet one of these animals. Gun crime continues to rise despite the current gun control laws. It's ineffective. The only way to stop gun crime is to get the criminals off the street. Even when you do get them off the street there are more to replace them. It's NOT guns that's the problem, it's poverty and lack of opportunity. Running huge deficits causes poverty and lack of opportunity. Balanced budgets used as the foundation for social justice is the key, as is long term vision. Dean has that. Oh, and there are a lot of Democrats who are pro-gun. You'd be fairly hard pressed to find very many anti-gun rural Democrats. Most of that faction of the party lives in the cities. Anytime you cram too many people in too small an area you have more violence, more crime and more aggression. If a criminal didn't have access to a gun (which they obtain illegally anyhow) they would just use a knife, pipe bomb, baseball bat or golf club...and I have to tell you, if I were going to be killed, I'd much rather be shot than stabbed and/or bludgeoned to death. Here's a little story...several years ago the man I was supposed to marry was shot in the back while disarming another man. The gun that killed him was federally banned, obtained illegally through the black market, imported from another country. The bullets were also illegal and obtained the same way. Tell me what gun control laws did to save his life. He had a criminal record and after making a stupid mistake, he was abiding by the law 100%. Due to gun control laws, he could not legally own a gun let alone carry one. As a law abiding citizen, if it weren't for gun control he might be alive right now. So, just as gun control did nothing to save him it also helped kill him because he wasn't able to defend himself against someone who obviously wasn't going to follow gun laws since they didn't have a problem with pumping all kinds of armor piercing bullets into his back. Needless to say, I oppose gun control, and now you know why.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Let's test our predictive powers. You say:

"The top two left standing at the end of the primaries MUST be the nominee and the VP pick "


I predict: you are wrong. The VP pick will not be the candidate who comes in second in delegate count.


I guess time will tell who's right....

[southpaw72]

7. IMHO If Dean wins, his running mate should be...

Graham.

Think about it:

north & south
outsider & insider
energetic & seasoned.

Plus their positions on the war are very similar. And Graham is hugely popular in Florida, which any Democrat has to win this time round.

[billbuckhead]

8. A Yankee Democrat hasn't won in over 50 years.

The Dean cult is out of touch with reality.

[LuminousX]

9. Wow, so we should never run a New Englander for President...ever.

[helleborient]

11. Ummm...where did JFK grow up?

He was elected 43 years ago.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[southpaw72]

39. Not everyone who likes Dean is a "cultist"

Sure, I like Dean. I think he's a good man, and a good candidate. I don't agree with his stand on everything. I think he has a good chance of beating Bush; and even if he doesn't, I think he's got enough backbone to put up one hell of a fight. I'll *probably* even vote for him in the primary, unless one of the other candidates impresses me more.

How does that make me part of the so-called "Dean cult"??

As for the problem of him being a northeastern democrat, I agree it's worrisome. But that's why I was suggesting he should pick a southerner for a running mate.

[sventvkg]

10. Grahm would be the prefect VP running mate for Dean..

Makes complete sense and as much as I really like Clark his VP ticket makes no sense...2 outsiders?..Not gonna happen..

[Jerseycoa]

36. Two Outsiders

:eyes: I never understand it when people pair Clark and Dean on a ticket either way. Somebody has to know how to get around Congress and the federal government. Clark would need a VP strong on domestic policy. Dean would need one strong on foreign policy. Both need somebody already inside. Nothing else makes a bit of sense.

[Padraig18]

14. Hmmm...

Graham was my 2nd choice, until he withdrew. Now, it's Clark. Graham would be an excellent choice, though. :thumbsup:

[polpilot]

21. Graham is already on board the Dean Train. He's sunning himself in

Florida, resting for the slugfest.

Dean/Graham '04...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

12. What is with all of this "Only Dean can beat Bush" stuff????

I am offended by this. I am not taken by Dean's campaign!
There are other choices out there too!

[helleborient]

13. It's a reaction to...

Months of "Dean is unelectable" posts

[xultar]

15. Just remember those of you who support Dean...there were lots of

posts that said that Clarkies were setting themselves up for a fall by thinking he's the only guy who could win.

Just a tip

[Bread and Circus]

16. Very optimistic assessment....

very optimistic about Dean vs. Bush indeed.

[helleborient]

19. What's wrong with optimism?

That's what's gotten Dean this far...you have to be optimistic when you start out at 1% in the polls.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. So show me a NATIONAL poll backing this up

and I'll believe you. The primary is a different ball game than the general.

[helleborient]

22. Many polls show that a large segment of the national population...

Has never heard of Howard Dean or Wesley Clark, for that matter.

It's quite normal for the potential candidates of the party out of power to be behind at this point due to the significantly greater public awareness of the incumbent.

[JohnKleeb]

23. aint over till its over

I think Dean can win all right but I also think others can, that cool enough :D?

[helleborient]

24. Yep, and I agree with you (n/t)

[lastliberalintexas]

25. Umm, no they're not

The primary and general elections are both actually state by state elections. We do not have a national election in this country, as much as some would like to overlook that fact.

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. None of the polls take into account all the new voters

Dean has attracted. Pollsters call people on lists that have been compiled over the years. If you go to any Dean meetup, it's not unusual for half of those present to have NEVER been involved in politics before. Many have never even voted before or have only done so sporatically. I KNOW Dean will easily beat Bush and the only way there will be a landslide is if it's in Dean's favor. A lot of the people here are just unable to step back and look at this like the average American voter sees it. I am an Average American swing voter, and I'm telling you that the ONLY one in the bunch that I honestly am excited about and involved because of is Howard Dean. His personality is refreshing. It might put off some of the deeply involved Democrats, but the average American is LOVING it! We are so damn sick of talking head politicos who don't tell it to us straight and try to sugarcoat everything and be all things to all people. Howard Dean is exactly what America has been lacking in politics.

[lastliberalintexas]

26. I appreciate your enthusiasm

But I wouldn't say that Dean is the only one who can beat Shrub. We've got a really good field this year, and have some wonderful candidates.

I agree though, that any candidate must win legitimately. I think that a "win" by a brokered convention will leave a very bad taste in the mouth of many people, and short term split the party very badly. Plays right into the repubs' hands.

[redqueen]

27. Reading that statement...

it seems you think the party isn't already pretty deeply split.

:shrug:

[lastliberalintexas]

28. It depends on what you mean by split

Some of this is just typical primary BS that we go through. Probably made more fierce this year because we all see how important this election is.

Is there a deeper divide? Certainly, between the people who think we should go along to get along and those who want Dems with a backbone. And with even further to the left people like myself who in a an ideal world would like to implement some sort of European socialist democracy (and even those who want full fledged socialism).

Strangely enough, I don't think this deeper divide would keep us from coming together for next year's election. On these issues, I think most people understand we need to get back in power before we can talk about changing the system.

However, a brokered convention *could* leave certain candidates supporters feeling like all Dems did after the Court decision on 2000. Particularly if it is seen as a "back room" deal of the insiders/power brokers, rather than the average Dem. And I think those feelings could arise no matter who they choose as the nominee.

I would hope that a brokered convention wouldn't split us in Nov, but it is certainly a real possibility. On the deeper issues, I think that will be a debate for years to come. But again, one that may be better discussed once we have the power to do something about it.

[redqueen]

29. I hear you...

but seeing as how it was Clinton who signed that anti-terror legislation after OK was bombed... I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't get everyone united, after all.

IMO there will be a whole buncha people who are against FTAA / NAFTA / WTO, as well as a whole bunch of other stuff, who will just not turn out for another Clintonite Democrat.

But God I hope I'm wrong.

[surfermaw]

41. Edwards is the preson to beat Bush!

What makes you think Dean is the only person trying for the job that can beat Bush, be informed, it will take two.