I'm a Deanocrat

[KaraokeKarlton]

It seems that many Democrats believe that I am a pushover, too ignorant to know what I believe in or understand what the candidates for president stand for. They have compared me to Moonies, mass suicide cult members and Nazis. I am not welcome in "their" political party. They do not value my opinions, beliefs and especially not my vote. They treat me with disrespect, belittle me, demean me, insult me and stereotype me. It would seem that they have absolutely nothing to offer to me as a voter. They claim to be "inclusive", but in reality, that only applies when it is convenient and beneficial for them to do so.

I am a Deanocrat. I do not like most of the other candidates because I don't agree with things they have done, policies they want to put into place. Call me what you will, but remember that I don't owe you any votes and that you aren't likely to earn them by alienating me. But hey, you don't need Dean supporters to vote with you, right?

[vi5]

1. Vote for who you want

Are you looking for permission to vote for Dean? I don't think anybody needs to give that to you.

Or are you looking for validation?

Seems like for a lot of people on here it's not enough to just vote for who they want to vote for, they have to have it validated by the approval of others and use it as some sort of grand statement. If you don't care what these other people think why do you spend so much time concerning yourself with it and posting about it.

I'm completely perplexed by this whole phenomenon, and it's definitely not exclusive to Dean supporters..

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. Just trying to make a point

I'm getting quite disgusted with the attacks on Dean supporters. It happens to the supporters of other candidates as well, but not as frequently. The only recourse is to alert on these posts, but that does nothing to discourage those who do this from continuing to do it. If I alerted on all of these posts I wouldn't have time to do anything else on this site. I guess I'm hoping that starting a thread like this might appeal to the sensibilities of at least some of those who participate in this.

[vi5]

6. No, it happens just as frequently to every other candidate...

And again.....why do you care? Nobody can take you vote away from you and nobody other than yourself will know who you will vote for. So why the need to make grand statements on a message board letting everyone know who you are voting for?

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. Why does anyone care when they are stereotyped?

Why do blacks get offended when they are insulted for their race?
Why do homosexuals get offended when they are insulted for their sexual preference?
Why do women get offended when they are insulted for being a woman?
Why do liberals get offended when they are insulted for being a liberal?

Bigotry is alive and well in the Democratic Party it would seem. Why should I care? Because this kind of bias is wrong and undemocratic, that's why. I don't particularly enjoy being stereotyped, insulted, demeaned, degraded, and belittled. Do you?

[vi5]

9. Are you for real? Honestly....

Did you just compare someone not liking your choice for president to someone being discriminated against because of the race, gender, or sexual preference?

And actually, no I don't care if I'm stereotyped by someone because:
A)I don't act like a stereotype
B)I don't revolve my life around the opinion that other people have of me because I have plenty of other things in my life to worry about.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Why is it different?

I'm being called derogatory names and even compared to Nazis just because my views and choices are different than some others' choices and views. Could you please explain to me how that isn't bigotry? While you're at it, you could explain to me how bashing the south on DU isn't also bigotry.

People should stop and listen to themselves and think about how they sound. The way Dean supporters are spoken of on this site is NOT with words and attitudes of an "inclusive" political party. If I wanted to be judged in such a way I'd join the religious right. The behavior isn't much different. I highly doubt anyone on this site wants to sound like that...but many do. I'm pointing it out because I'm hoping that in doing so it might help resolve the problem.

[Skwmom]

2. Well for every Deanocrat that is alienated

I'm sure there is just as many, if not more, that are being alienated by Dean's hypocrisy and continual lying.

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. Keep telling yourself that

but don't cry when more and more people are driven into the welcoming arms of the Greens and other third parties while YOUR Democratic Party becomes more and more exclusive until everyone looks and thinks exactly like you.

[Skwmom]

11. The Democratic party is destroying itself.

Instead of asking if Howard Dean will transform the party maybe people should ask if he will destroy it? Why do you think the talking heads are talking about Dean redefining the party? Because if Dean is the nominee they will paint the Democratic party as a bunch of loony, lying, hate-filled hypocrites.

Many Democrats constantly whine about how much George Bush lies but when one of their own does it they have no problem with that. This reeks of hypocrisy.

[drfemoe]

16. And how is that different than what 'they' do now?

Because if Dean is the nominee they will paint the Democratic party as a bunch of loony, lying, hate-filled hypocrites.


Your statement just proves what KK is saying... because that is how Dean and his supporters are painted NOW.

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. Okay, let me get this straight...

Despite the fact that Howard Dean is drawing record numbers of NEW voters into the Democratic Party, you are afraid that if he's nominated he's going to drive potential new voters away from the party? Excuse me, but why the hell do you want to risk all the new voters he has already brought to the party for a bunch of phantom voters that "might" consider voting Democratic at some point in the future. It would seem to me that it's a much wiser choice to put your money on the sure thing, not the unknown.

Oh, and Dean isn't a liar, either. I found him to be a very honest and forthright governor. In fact, sometimes he's probably too honest and a little blunt than he needs to be.

[Uzybone]

4. who cares

vote for Dean if you like...he is a good man and far better than the shit we have the WH. But if Dean doesnt win the nomination, vote for the democrat vs Bush. You dont have to scurry around looking for validation because you follow Dean.

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. I am definitely voting in the primary

Whether or not I vote in the general election at this point depends entirely upon who the candidate is and what the Democratic Leadership does. If they don't nominate the candidate the voters chose and decide to pull a supreme court style selection I will NOT vote for their nominee under ANY circumstances. Not even if I like them. I will not enable backstabbing and betrayal of voting Americans. If voters choose the candidate, I will vote for that person in the general election, even if it's someone I can't stand, because they will have earned the nomination.

[paulk]

13. You point up one of the primary reasons

many Democrats are worried about Dean's candidacy.

Your support of the Democratic party is conditional. If we don't nominate your candidate, you will vote for a third party or not vote at all.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. That's not what I said...

I said that I will NOT vote for ANY candidate that doesn't earn the nomination through votes by the people. If the DNC and DLC somehow manage to get their dirty little hands into things and rob one of the candidates from the nomination they have EARNED I will NOT enable such candidate Selection. If Dean wins the most primary delegates, he should get the nomination. If it's someone else, then they should get it. If the party leadership tries to use super delegates to screw over the people...third party here I come.

[paulk]

26. If Dean gets a majority, then he will win the nomination

If he gets a plurality, then who knows. There is no guarantee or obligation for the delegates of another candidate to vote for Dean.

Lumping the DLC and DNC together is naive. The DNC will back whomever they think can win the nomination. The DLC has their own agenda.

[drfemoe]

15. I overheard

Bill O'R interviewing Dick Morris last night (my rm watches fop,I do not).. but he seemed to be saying that Soros is backing the DLC against Dean.

I think that is the kind of possible trickery KK is talking about.

I won't vote "democratic" just to vote "democratic". And I know other Dean supporters who feel the same. Dean himself will support whoever is nominated, but he can't make us vote for someone we don't want to.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Your source: Bill O'Reilly & Dick Morris? You've got to be kidding.

[MaineDem]

18. "If they don't nominate the candidate the voters chose ..."

Do you know how the candidate is selected? The one with the most delegates will win. It's the delegates who select the nominee...people like you and me who are elected in our states.

Unless there is no clear leader going into the convention. Then anything might happen. Like in the "old Days".

[wryter2000]

10. Dean's my man

And this is exactly what I plan to do. Support him, vote for him in the primary, and vote for the Democratic nominee whoever he or she is.

[NNadir]

12. Deaners have a responsibility to support the ultimate nominee.

This election is too important.

I very much believe that Howard Dean is the best of the field, as a campaigner, as an administrator, as a human being, and as a thinker.
However, I hold no personal animus with any Democrat who disagrees. There are many fine candidates in our race, and all of them, even the least among them, are far superior to Bush. Things are testy now, but we should hold no grudges in the ultimate struggle.

In the increasingly unlikely event that Dean does not succeed at gaining the nomination, I believe Dr. Dean will be the first to support the ultimate nominee. It's just one more reason why I admire and respect the guy.

Go Dean! Go Democrats!

BUSH MUST BE DEFEATED!

[CMT]

14. most Dean supporters have indicated they will vote

for whoever the nominee is.

[Larkspur]

17. I'm a Deanocrat too!!!

I'm against the Vichy Dems, like Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Lieberman, Al From, Bruce Reed, and Zell Miller.

I fully support Dean's vision for a more inclusive Democratic Party, whose current leaders I have felt are betraying the Democratic principles in order to get corporate money. It's these kinds of leaders who caused me to leave the party 10 years ago. I returned last year, before I signed on with the Dean Campaign, because I wanted to help rebuild the Party from the grassroots up. I'm just fortunate that Dean has the same vision as I do.

[paulk]

24. It's a good thing Dean has a vision of a more inclusive Democratic Party

Because you sure as hell don't.


Vichy Dems, from Kerry to Miller?????
From one of the most liberal Democrats to one of the most conservative?

Who gets to be in your version of the Dem. party?

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. I think he is saying he doesn't want them to lead

because they too often side with the Republicans. I don't think he was saying that he doesn't value voters from all varieties of political views.

[JohnKleeb]

30. I dont think thats the point

I know what the Vichy was all about, they were French people who with the Nazi invasion colleberated with the Nazi invaders, we may hate with our lives the votes Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, and Lieberman made for IWR but one can not deny they havent fought back, even Lieberman has on things, all the senators named here voted against Ashcroft being Attorney General, I may not like that vote but these guys arent Vichy Dems, and on Gephardt in specific, Ive never met a republican that was so pro working class. Now Zell Miller has been collebarting, hes supported the GOP 100% these years. Vichy clearly means collebartor and helping the enemy, these guys havent been on the adminstration's ass but they have been vocally critical of the adminstration loads of times. They disappointed me with IWR too btw, but I dont forget the facts that they havent been Bush asskissers, they havent been the best but have they stood up good to Bush yes they have, I support Kucinich because he said no to IWR and he has a vision that fits my own.

[paulk]

34. there is an element within the Dean camp

A minority I hope - that seems to despise the Democratic party as much as the Republican. This worries me. You can't win a general election running against your own party.

[JohnKleeb]

35. You wanna see the real Vichy paulk

Pierre Laval and Marshal Petain.
I really think if any democrat deserves to be compared to these two guys who literally did sell out their own country to fascism every step of the way, it would be Zell Miller. I admit I havent liked what those guys mentioned have done like IWR but I dont think a "Vichy" would be so pro union like how Gephardt is, or have a solid committment to democratic values overall as all of them seem do. I dont get it.

[paulk]

38. Too bad the Senate isn't like baseball

We could trade Zell Miller for Lincoln Chafee. Or maybe Oympia Snowe.

[JohnKleeb]

39. too bad indeed

Miller for Chafee and a congressional republican to be named later :D.

[drfemoe]

46. there is a segment

of Americans (don't know what %) that don't vote "party". Dean's camp has some of us. It also has a good amount of fed up 'republicans'.

I wasn't crazy about Clinton in '92, but I voted for him because the republican alternative was unacceptable to me. Clinton was so devoted to "democrats" that he allowed some no-class republican operative with a big mouth to bring shame on his office and make a mockery of democrats everywhere.

Don't try to blame this one on "Dean".

[paulk]

52. Dean has consciously run as a Washington outsider

And as a Democratic party outsider. He has attacked the Democratic Party in general on several occasions.

There is a lot of anger out there toward both Washington and the Democratic party, much of it warranted.

Dean has tapped into that anger. He has grabbed a tiger by the tail and he will be fortunate if it doesn't turn and bite him.

[Scott Lee]

58. You misread the anger.

You might be talking about us of the New Dem Left, or the anti-Statists. We don't hate the Democratic party. We hate the stogid, dusty establishment that has allowed our party to stagnate and lose power.

"We" don't want to destroy the party. We want to transform it. And you know what? That's happening no matter what the statists think. They are in for a real shocker come convention time.

[paulk]

63. The shocker I want to see is next November

when we put a Democrat in the White House.

Transforming the Dem. party is a worthy goal - I just don't see Howard Dean as the guy to do it.

[Scott Lee]

66. The problem with your statement is - Dean is ALREADY doing it

"Gentlemen, current events have now, apparently, rendered our discussion moot." - Cmdr. Sailes

[paulk]

74. You misunderstand

I do think Howard Dean is already doing it. I just think he's the wrong guy to lead the crusade. He's a centrist, even conservative Democrat. Yes, now he's saying all the right things, but his rhetoric doesn't match his actions as Governor of Vermont.

I would much rather see this transformation led by a more liberal politico. What good will Dean do if he pulls the party toward the center?

[Scott Lee]

75. Then where are your heroes? Who are they?

I don't see anyone BUT Dean savaging the party statism and elitist fossilization. And if he's so centrist, why is he consistently and accurately noted as the leftist in the party? The representative of "the democratic wing of the democratic party"?

I believe Dean represents a new left - one that is not lilly livered and pacifist to the point of being marginalized by the right. His aggression and take-no-prisoners attitude often and erroneously gets him marked as a centrist or conservative.

[mitchum]

76. No, his record as Mayo-..oops...Governor of Vermont is why he is...

marked as a centrist. And Howie is known as the represantive of "the Democratic Party" BECAUSE HE SAID SO!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. "value voters from all varieties of political views"

In fact, he values them so much that he is willing to adopt those views, even when contradictory, to win votes.

"We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations"
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.11.22/news3.html

said he didn't "believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/elec04.prez.dean.mideast/

[drfemoe]

47. your source ...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Exactly my point.

When talking to this pro-Israel publication, Dean says "We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations".

When talking to a general audience(cnn), Dean says he didn't "believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking."

[Larkspur]

43. That's correct. The current Dem Party leadership sucks.

And as far as the Dem Party itself, it needs a revamping BIG TIME, especially in Connecticut. When I registered as a Dem in Connecticut in 1983, I never was contacted by the Dem Party. Never received a "Welcome to the Dem Party and thanks for choosing us" note with a list of local Dem contacts.

Connecticut is a Dem state, but in 1994 it got a more conservative Repub governor because the Dems fumbled the ball with the surplus-turned-deficit issue and the state income tax. When I moved to Connecticut in 1983, the Dems touted the state's surplus as the major reason to vote for them, but by end of 1980's, the surplus was gone and so was the primary reason Dems had for voters to support them.

Gov. Weicker, the governor previous to Rowland, was a moderate Repub, but he instituted the state income tax while decreasing the corporate gains tax from 12% to 4%. His trust fund was taxed based on the corporate gains tax, so he gave himself a big tax cut while jacking ours up. And the Dems went along for most of Weicker's tax package.

It's this kind of sellout by Dem leaders that pisses me off and frankly, with Dems like these, we don't need Republicans.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. What a totally short-sighted viewpoint.

However, we'll beat Bush even with you sitting on the sidelines.


Bye! :hi:

[Speck Tater]

27. But does the DNC favor the right of Dean Supporters to marry?

Everything else is just rhetoric. Until Dean Supporters can ride in the same busses, eat at the same restaurants, and attend the same schools as everyone else we still have serious prejudice in the DNC.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. LOL

[no name no slogan]

29. LMAO!!!

Too bleeping funny! Gee, I never knew the persecution the Deanies suffered out in the real world.

Do people intentionally run them off the road because they have Dean stickers on their Audis?

Do people chase them around with pitchforks?

Do their neighbors move away because they don't want to live next to "those people"?

Do the other families at the country club shun them because they've seen them at Dean MeetUps?

Being a Kucitizen, I guess I never realized it was really that bad for them. They (kinda sorta) have my heartfelt sympathy.

Now, can we discuss something seriously for a change? :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. So not only is it okay for other DUers to call me a Nazi

but it's silly for me to find it offensive?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Have you heard of the rules? The 'Alert' link?

No, it is not ok for other DUers to call you a Nazi. It is specifically prohibited by the rules. If someone calls you a Nazi, click 'Alert' and the mods will remove the offending post.

[molly]

40. Who called you a NAZI?

that is unforgivable! The Nazi followers followed blindly not willing to see the corruption right in front of their eyes - not willing to question. You seem to be intelligent beyond that.

Who called you a NAZI?

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. You haven't seen some posters compare Dean to Hitler?

If they call Dean "Hitler" while claiming Dean supporters are like cult members what does that imply to you? I have seen Dean supporters compared to Nazis plenty of times on this site, either directly or indirectly by comparing Dean to Hitler. And yes, it is unacceptable and very offensive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. Over-identify much?

Criticism of Dean is not criticism of you.

[Scott Lee]

59. Oh yes - and we who support him are "cultists", "moonies" etc.

Seen it all, ad nauseum. My suggestion is to REVEL in it. Why? because it means those of us that seek to transform the party to a WINNER for a change are making headway. You don't get such resistance and hate thrown at you unless you are making progress.

So smile! The Democratic Party is about to be reborn.

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. What really pisses me off is this...

Many DUers who don't like Dean will routinely attack other DU members in a very inappropriate way and when you call them on it they act like it is Dean they are insulting when they clearly are attacking his supporters and members of this site.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

71. No, actually I don't really sound anything like them

and BTW, they are still here....

I saw a similar writing style and content to posters who are gone and it just made me wonder out loud...then again, as you so aptly stated, there are a lot of Du-ers (read Dean supporters) who all sound the same.which would make sense I suppose...

....the fact that the other posters are no longer posting (for whatever reasons) just happened to bring my attention to your posts....but since it obviously upsets you, from now on, I will keep my musings to myself....


Peace
DR



edit
sentence deleted

[KaraokeKarlton]

73. You sounded like them in that post

because both have accused me of being someone who used to post here who I don't even know. Apparently the poster they were referring to was from Vermont too. Clearly I'm not the only Vermonter online and people of similar regions do tend to have somewhat similar opinions on political issues. That doesn't mean I have some kind of multiple online personality disorder. I didn't mean to come across as aggressive as I did, but I really am quite sick of the accusations.

[Scott Lee]

67. It's an old, cowardly trick...most often employed by rightards

But sadly, we're seeing it used by those who obsessively hate Howard Dean.

Well you know what they say - the political extremes meet to make a circle.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. Well, Dean is a liar, right?

He's lying about his gun control stance for one thing.

[no name no slogan]

41. No it is not

Sorry if I came off as a smart-ass. I didn't mean that it was right for others to call you a Nazi. I just find it very hard to sympathize with many Deanies because FWIW Dean has had a pretty easy ride in the liberal press and many (not all) of his followers have often resorted to that "air of superiority" that you've found among others here. I've not seen many mentions of Dean in The Nation or The Progressive or American Prospect where he's referred to as "marginal" or "no-hope".

Let's just say its hard to sympathize with the supporters of a guy who's the perceived frontrunner. That's easier.

:hi:

[helleborient]

42. Thank you (n/t)

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. Well a lot of Dean supporters have gotten very defensive

and snarky because of this very issue I'm talking about. We know what his record is and what he stands for, haven't been fooled and we aren't some kool-aid drinking cult and Dean is not the second coming of Hitler. We are just a group of very motivated and dedicated supporters who believe in the campaign that we have become a part of. We should NOT be demeaned, degraded and insulted for that. No one should be.

[mitchum]

44. LOL!!!

oh man, that was good

[helleborient]

33. I definitely understand your point, I suggest...

Getting out into the real world of Democrats...the insults and such aren't nearly like on here...since people have to speak face to face.

Meeting one of my fellow Dean supporters last night to put together our petitions for the spring primary, get them notarized, and mailed in was a breath of fresh air after too much time here yesterday.

[polpilot]

45. Good point. After FINALLY getting a real leader it's time to get on with

business of taking the country back, supporting non Bush-like candidates, and enjoying the experience.

The whining and venting is fine but awfully non productive.

Dean '04...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. Dean puts his finger in the wind and you call it leadership.

[Scott Lee]

60. Better than Kerry putting his fingers in his ears...

when it comes to his Insider behavior as per normal.

[helleborient]

64. And what wind was blowing on the Iraq vote?

Dick Gephardt stands up for his vote then.

John Kerry...well? there are some nuances involved....

[Scott Lee]

68. An ill wind indeed!

That smelled suspiciously like death.

Gep and Kerry were only too happy to sign onto it. That is the reality and that is the truth that will be around their necks for the whole campaign as the Iraq War continues to decay into chaos and the stench of criminality.

In all truth, I would not want to be either one of those two at this time, having to explain away that one with every step of their torrid campaigns.

[dpbrown]

37. Gesundheit.

Care for a tissue?

[mzmolly]

48. Life long Democrat and proud "Deanocrat"...

I want my country back, and my party, and Dean's the person to do it!!!!

[polpilot]

51. Dean IS The New Democrats. Leave the whiners behind.

Dean '04....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

53. Calling people 'whiners' if they don't support Dean

sounds like a great way to build a party. :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

61. If the shoe fits....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. And what if it doesn't?

Dean as President would be a disaster for the Democratic party.

That's not whining, it's my opinion.

[Andromeda]

77. I think they said "winners"

Meaning that you are a winner if you support Dean. Funny how these typos can cause misunderstandings!

[mitchum]

54. Ski at last! Ski at last!

One glorious day you will not have to suffer from such vile bigotry