Dean leading Kerry in Massachusetts (but within MOE)

[arcos]

Dean bid showing strength in Massachusetts

<snip>

The poll shows Dean getting 27 percent of the 400 likely Democratic primary voters, with Kerry receiving 24 percent. The two are far ahead of seven other candidates, with retired Army General Wesley K. Clark running a distant third with 6 percent.

<snip>

The Globe/WBZ survey echoes a University of Massachusetts poll taken early last week, in which Dean held a six-point lead among Bay State primary voters over Kerry. Dean was backed by 29 percent of the 400 Democrats and independents who were surveyed in the UMass poll, while Kerry got 23 percent.

The UMass survey also shows that Dean runs slightly stronger against President Bush, leading 58 percent to 34 percent. Kerry leads Bush by 56 percent to 38 percent.

<snip>

While Kerry runs ahead of Dean among registered Democrats -- 28 percent to 22 percent -- the senator trails by a wide margin -- 36 percent to 14 percent -- among independents, according to the Globe/WBZ polls.

<snip>

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/23/dean_bid_showing_strength_in_mass/

[La_Serpiente]

1. If he just voted against the war resolution

none of this would have happened.

[sandnsea]

5. If people read more

They'd know Dean had the exact same position as Kerry. And if they were able to apply logic, they'd know he would have voted for that resolution too.

[CTLawGuy]

29. wow thats ridiculous....

NT

[LuminousX]

42. Odd that the last hope they have is to say Kerry and Dean have the same

position....

[dfong63]

40. read more lies, you mean?

[Scott Lee]

65. More mind reading from the DeanHaterz. What a shock.

[sandnsea]

2. Independents for Dean

Democrats for Kerry. Our primary is being hijacked.

[La_Serpiente]

3. I am afraid

that all the discontented Republicans will come over to the Democratic party and vote for Lieberman.

[sandnsea]

4. I'm more afraid

The ornery ones will vote for Dean.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. Don't be scared of Dean. Be scared of Bush.

[arcos]

6. You wouldn't be saying that if the results were the other way around n/t

[sandnsea]

7. Oh yes I would

If Kerry had abandoned all traditional Democratic values and was attracting right leaning Independents as a result, I'd drop him like a hot rock.

I really do want my country back. I really do want a country where we address and SOLVE real social and economic issues. I really want a health care plan that's not going to bankrupt the country. I really do want energy independence, not just a half-ass conservation program like they have in Vermont. I WANT a country that REAL Democrats fight for. Not this flim-flam job the Rockefeller Republican Howard Dean is throwing together.

[helleborient]

15. I want country where people work together to move forward

Not one where people sit in armed partisan political camps throwing rocks at each other. I welcome Independents and Republicans voting for Democratic candidates.

Hanging a sign out saying "only registered Democrats allowed" is signaling defeat for hope...and supporting ongoing partisan fighting.

[sandnsea]

19. We can't sweep things under the rug

We'll all end up pretty damn dirty. I thought Howard's campaign was all about straight-shooting and telling the truth no matter what. I thought that he wanted more partisan fighting because that's the only way Democrats in Congress can fight back, by being partisan. When did it become a campaign about ignoring all those differences in the issues in order to pander to more voters? He is the exact thing he says he's against, a compromising centrist pink tutu Rockefeller Republican. When it comes to the tough stuff, Howard says it's not important to make it an issue.

[CMT]

8. Kerry's lead among registered dems is hardly

overwhelming 28-22. Ma is a generally liberal state where many of its Independents and even republicans are like Jim Jeffords politically rather than GW Bush.

The Dean opponents used to say Dean can't win independents, well he is in both NH and Massachusetts polling. He is running best against Bush in one of his opponents homestates.

[arcos]

9. they used to say he can't win independents...

now they say independents are "hijacking" the primary for Dean. :eyes::eyes::eyes:

[pruner]

10. just because they're "Independent"…

are we really supposed to believe it can't possibly be a concerted effort.

:tinfoilhat:

[sandnsea]

11. Not me

I've always been against him because he's too far to the right. That and he's a liar.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Vermont is probably the furthest left of any state in the Union.

Elected over and over. This proves that he's not "too far right."

Sanders, Leahy and Jeffords. A socialist, a lefty Dem and a centrist.

I think people often fail to take this into account when they argue that he squabbled with the left wing of the party. That left wing is very, very left.

[sandnsea]

37. It's what he did

Not entirely the squabbles with the left. It's more the way he treated the left which is exactly the way he's treating the Democratic candidates now. If he gets to be President, is he going to start a bashing campaign on the Progressive Caucus? Somewhere in P&C I just listed a long thread of what Dean has said that makes me not support him.

And just one more thing. Vermont's land set aside. It allows for logging and recreational use. Out here in the west, that's a regular old state forest. A real land set aside is wilderness. That kind of makes me wonder about how liberal Vermont really is.

On edit: Here's that other P&C post.

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=89873#90426

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

56. Huh?

It's more the way he treated the left which is exactly the way he's treating the Democratic candidates now.


And KerGepWards are not treating a fellow Democrat badly? It's always the same hypocrisy, "My candidate does it, it's justifiable. If the candidate I'm against does it, it's a crime against humanity."


A perfect example is one of the "lies" that you claim Dean is guilty of(from your post @ http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=89873#90426: )

DEAN FLIP-FLOPPED ON RETIREMENT AGE 1995 Governor Dean Retirement Age Flip: DEAN: "Secondly, I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to … increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Senator Packwood is on exactly the right track. … " (CNN’s "Crossfire," 2/28/95)

2003 Candidate Dean Retirement Age Flop: RUSSERT: "Would you raise retirement age to 70?" DEAN: "No. No." (NBC’s "Meet The Press," 6/22/03)


Yet you seem to lack the same outrage when it is pointed out that your candidate looked at raising the retirement age also:


MR. RUSSERT: In ’96 you told The Globe you would look at raising the retirement age. You—no?
SEN. KERRY: I would not—I said that was one of many options that were out there that people would put on the table. Back then we were talking about putting everything on the table. I would not do that, period.
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp



In order to remain consistent, you need to come out publicly and call Kerry a "liar" as well. Now's as good a time as any. (Bracing myself for the upcoming spin)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. Kick......

A chance for you to:kick:Kerry, too!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. No?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. Well, there you have it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. Harumph.

[sandnsea]

12. It's the Independent margin that's telling

New Hampshire has all Republican representatives. He's pulling Independents by a wide margin in this poll. It's because he's so far to the right and willing to abandon Democratic values like gun safety and Affirmative Action. I've rarely heard him talk about CAFE standards or even ANWR very much. He's all anti-war and health care and let's not talk about anything that might offend those right-leaning voters. That's what people around here usually say they're against.

[Padraig18]

13. Prove two things to me, sandnsea:

1.) That gun safety is a 'traditional Democratic value', and

2.) That Gov. Dean is in any way whatsoever 'abandoning' the same.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

17. god, guns and gays

Don't vote on god, guns and gays. Ted Rall article, he's got that impression, says Dean is pro 2nd amendment. Dean is states' rights all the time. His words.

And gun safety has been part of the Democratic platform for years. We have a long way to go to get some of these guns off the streets and change people's propensity to shoot each other. Don't try to pretend this isn't a Democratic issue.

[Padraig18]

23. I asked for proof, and you provided none---again. n/t

[sandnsea]

25. It's HIS words

What more proof can one provide then the man's own damn words???

[Padraig18]

26. Read the original two questions:

You've provided no proof whatsoever that gun safety is a 'traditional Democratic value' or that Gov. Dean has abandoned the same.

[sandnsea]

28. Proof?

Tell me what is proof to you. A sworn statement? What? If his words aren't proof and the Democratic Platform isn't proof, then I don't know what else could be.

[Padraig18]

34. You *refuse* to answer the questions.

That's proof of your bias. You have no proof that either of those statements are true, so lame generalities must suffice, I suppose... :eyes:

[sandnsea]

38. Oh for heaven's sake

Why do you argue the obvious?

1996 Democratic Platform

"Protecting our children, our neighborhoods, and our police from criminals with guns. Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich, and George Bush were able to hold the Brady Bill hostage for the gun lobby until Bill Clinton became President. With his leadership, we made the Brady Bill the law of the land. And because we did, more than 60,000 felons, fugitives, and stalkers have been stopped from buying guns. President Clinton led the fight to ban 19 deadly assault weapons, designed for one purpose only -- to kill human beings. We oppose efforts to restrict weapons used for legitimate sporting purposes, and we are proud that not one hunter or sportsman was forced to change guns because of the assault weapons ban. But we know that the military-style guns we banned have no place on America's streets, and we are proud of the courageous Democrats who defied the gun lobby and sacrificed their seats in Congress to make Americ a safer."

http://www.perkel.com/congress/platform.htm

"Let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun control laws they want," Dean is quoted as saying on his campaign website.

http://www.2ndamendment.com/Miscellaneous/News/20030627-5.htm

[Padraig18]

46. Dean's quote:

Let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun control laws they want," ...

Let's see: he supports the current Federal gun-control laws, and wants to leave any expansion of gun-control to the states. That sure sounds like he wants the 'Wild West' back, to me... :eyes:


Pretty lame 'talking point', IMO, not to mention a rather specious 'distinction'...

[sandnsea]

49. Exactly, he's all done

No more gun regulations, no more talk about it. He's abandoned it as an issue.

[Padraig18]

50. Guess what?

A lot of America is 'done' with it. Enough is enough!

[sandnsea]

52. lol Then why were you arguing with me?

[Padraig18]

64. Because I am sick and tired of your specious distinctions, that's why. n/t

[paulk]

36. from the Democratic Party Platform, 2000 election cycle

"Strong and Sensible Gun Laws. A shocking level of gun violence on our streets and in our schools has shown America the need to keep guns away from those who shouldn't have them - in ways that respect the rights of hunters, sportsmen, and legitimate gun owners. The Columbine tragedy struck America's heart, but in its wake Republicans have done nothing to keep guns away from those who should not have them.

Democrats believe that we should fight gun crime on all fronts - with stronger laws and stronger enforcement. That's why Democrats fought and passed the Brady Law and the Assault Weapons Ban. We increased federal, state, and local gun crime prosecution by 22 percent since 1992. Now gun crime is down by 35 percent.

Now we must do even more. We need mandatory child safety locks, to protect our children. We should require a photo license I.D., a full background check, and a gun safety test to buy a new handgun in America. We support more federal gun prosecutors, ATF agents and inspectors, and giving states and communities another 10,000 prosecutors to fight gun crime."

http://www.democrats.org/about/2000platform.html



Dean has made statements, during his run for the nomination, that support this platform.

The problem of many who have criticized Dean is that his current stated positions on gun control don't always match the positions he espoused as Governor of Vermont.

[arcos]

14. huh? New Hampshire has nothing to do with this poll...

It is a Massachusetts poll... it has nothing to do that New Hampshire has all Republican representatives. We are talking about independents in Massachusetts, not NH.

[sandnsea]

16. Same principle

Right leaning people going for Dean. It's part of what's bugged me about him all along.

[arcos]

18. yeah, same principle...

"New Hampshire has all Republican representatives"

sure, Massachusetts does too...... oh, wait a minute! They have no GOP reps!!

[sandnsea]

20. Do you like dancing in circles?

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Indpendents in Massachusetts widely favor Dean, right leaning New Hampshire widely favors Dean. Because Dean's running right, just like everybody always said he would.

[arcos]

21. "right leaning independents"

Where do you get the fact that "right leaning independents" in MA are favoring Dean?

Is re-regulation running right?

[sandnsea]

22. This isn't worth it

Dance by yourself. Or read the article and apply logic. Whichever.

[arcos]

24. I agree... it isn't worth it.

Your lack of facts and pure Dean hatred amazes me.

[Padraig18]

27. It did me, too, at first.

Now I've come to expect it. :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

48. Yeah, I can see why that would bug you

can't have a candidate uniting the country and getting votes from all facets of the political spectrum, now can we.

Must be a lefty purist.

Can't have those damn Right leaning people going for Dean.

I tell you, It'll be anarchy. Dogs and cats etc...

[LuminousX]

43. Big Tent = We Don't Want Your Kind? I don't think so.

Time to turn those independents into Democrats.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. They are already.

They're just in denial.

[Duder]

30. Looking good...

'Asked which would be the strongest candidate against President Bush, regardless of preference,
33 percent said Dean is the Democrats' best hope, compared to 19.1 percent for Kerry.'

http://www.projo.com/ap/ma/1069596050.htm

[RevolutionStartsNow]

31. Dean "Half arrogant and half cocky", but in a postive way

Joseph Kalesnik, a 62-year-old Democrat, said he has never felt fully comfortable with Kerry's manner, and said he was concerned by the turmoil inside his campaign as well. Dean, he said, strikes him as forthright, "half-arrogant and half-cocky," but in a positive way that suggests he'd be a strong candidate to take on Bush."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. How's Kerry doing in Vermont?

[Zynx]

45. Dean leads by a three to one margin.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. Close as a whisker.

[RogueTrooper]

39. This is not good news for John Kerry

I cannot imagine this poll is going to help him in his quest for dollars. His forth quarter figures might well kill his candidacy.

[dfong63]

41. go DEAN!

[LuminousX]

44. Shouldn't Mass be a Slamdunk for Kerry?

I find this a little odd that it is even in contention.

[killbotfactory]

47. Ummm... OUCH

I guess Kerry isn't Howardly enough.

[slinkerwink]

53. more great news!

[Mentalist]

54. The lead has grown!

Now up to 9 pts!

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=91074

[helleborient]

57. So why is Kerry the only "top tier" candidate tanking in his home state?

This seems to go right to the heart of "electability" concerns.

I think it should concern all of us after Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee in 2000. Massachusetts has a Republican governor and, at least so far, seems hardly a lock if Kerry were the candidate.

Do Massachusetts residents know something we don't know about John Kerry?

Vermont residents support Howard Dean something like 3 to 1.

[LuminousX]

58. Could be

they aren't eager to lose a star legislator. Or they only know him as a Senator and can't make the transition to see him as President.

Or the poll is skewed somehow.

No matter what, it is odd that Mass is even competitive for Dean. Either the people of Mass are really dumb and have fallen for all of Dean's lies, or they are normal people with a normal person's ability to know what a real lie is and support Dean because they see an executive not a legislator.

[CMT]

59. to be fair to Kerry

I have no doubt he would win the election in a general election contest vs. Bush. One of the polls which shows Dean leading Kerry in Massachusetts also said Kerry would beat Bush by 18-points (but Dean would beat him by 24-points). Though I have to admit it is interesting that Dean appears in these polls to be the strongest candidate in Massachusetts both in a democratic primary (against a Ma Senator) and then in a general election race vs. Bush.

[helleborient]

60. It does show potential weakness in "electability" (n/t)

[Scott Lee]

66. Shades of Al "I lost my own state" Gore.

I agree.