When It Comes To An Actual Presidency, Kerry Is Always The Better Man

[DrFunkenstein]

How many Dean policy threads can you find? I went through the first six sections and it is almost entirely made up of process stories - how great the grassroots is, how much money, what the polls are. Is there any lessons we can draw from this?

Here's my take - I think that Dean's supporters would rather focus on the bells and whistles rather than admit that Dean is running on a lackluster platform. Almost everything talked about will have ZERO effect on an actual Presidency.

It's not like we are going to have 4 years of grassroots campaigning. It's not like we're going to have 4 years of not voting for the IWR. It's not like we're going to have 4 years of anti-Bush anger. It's not like we're going to have 4 years of the fundraising bat.

Sometimes I think Dean supporters are really Trippi supporters. The only caveat is most supporters like that Dean is pissed off all the time.

I support Kerry for EXACTLY what he is going to do in the Oval Office. Not his personality or whether I'd have a beer with him, but his actual AGENDA. The man has the mind of an international chessmaster and a real record and realistic, workable proposals that back up his calls for overhauling our entire energy policy top to bottom, our health care system, and fighting terrorism and proliferation. He has an incredible record of taking on corporate welfare in the government and has a detailed plan for popping these fat cats off the government teat.

Yes, I disagreed with his IWR, but I am not going to put up an inferior candidate for something that will not directly affect his 4 years (especially since his true position was indistinguishable from Dean's eventual one). I have much more, MUCH MORE reservations about the backroom deals Dean made with Sharon and AIPAC than with the IWR. Those promises - never renounced - WILL affect a Dean Presidency.

If you put actual proposals, not just rhetoric, made by Dean and Kerry, you will find that EVERY TIME Kerry will have the more detailed and far-sighted approach. Which is why every time policy is brought up, Dean supporters don't brag about Dean's proposals, they run back to the IWR.

Presidency for Presidency - not even talking about electability - Kerry comes out ahead on every issue. He is not only a true progressive, he is the only candidate capable of walking in the shoes of some of our greatest Presidents.

<>

[XanaDUer]

1. "How many Dean policy threads can you find? "

Not many. ;)

[LA4Kerry]

4. ""How many Dean policy threads can you find? ""

My first post here! :)

My experience tells me Dean supporters are not big on discussing issues. Yes, we do know what John Kerry will do when he is elected.

And what he will do is exactly what we need right now.

[aquart]

9. So you believe what we need right now

Is a man too unimaginative to reframe an argument, so easily manipulated he voted for a war policy of fascistic aggression, and so naive as to believe a man who has never told the truth?

That's what we need? A man who will buy the Brooklyn Bridge? This nation has been looted by legislative thieves. And Kerry helped them carry the loot to the car.

[blm]

19. That's false. Kerry paid for the process that put inspectors back in,

preserved the UN, and prevented extension of force into Iran and Syria.

It cost him his vote and the votes of the other Dems stuck negotiating.

You'd prefer NOONE negotiated for the better bill? You'd prefer Bush have his war HIS way with no UN involvement at all, no presentation of evidence to congress and the UN and extend the hostilities into Iran and Syria? That was the alternative.

[Punkingal]

22. Welcome to DU...

please stick around. It is always nice to have newbies come on board.

[DrFunkenstein]

46. Ditto! Welcome Aboard!

It should be smooth sailing with that Kerry avatar!

A word of caution - don't take the girlie slapping around here too serious. We'll all get behind the candidate, whoever it is, and we all love each other deep down. You have to dig pretty deep sometimes, but we're all committed Democrats.

That said, welcome!

[bywho4who]

81. Welcome to DU :)

I speak for most when I say I'm glad your posting W/us





:hi:

:smoke: :hippie:

[dsc]

2. Two things

One, I have posted tons of Dean policy threads all of which sink like stones. I posted two tax threads and got a total of fewer than 40 responses for both. I get tired of doing all the typing, cutting, and pasting required for those threads (the first tax thread took me close to an hour) and getting no response at all.

Two, I don't think there are a whole lot of Kerry policy threads except the ones posted by you in the last few days.

[Hawkeye-X]

3. My point is proven..

Kerry's campaign has no life....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=776893

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Actually, you seem to have proven DrF's point with your post.

[berner59]

6. I agree about Kerry but...

It just seems like he's trying too hard...he's got ALL the right qualifications but he's not getting through and I don't know why. He needs to relax and be more himself - when he's seen at those town meetings - he's GREAT!!! I don't think Dean is such a charismatic guy and don't see what the hoopla is all about...I think Clark hit it right with saying that a litmus test on the IWR is the wrong way to go and that seems to be Dean's M-O. I worry that if Dean gets the nom, he can't beat Bush, I do think we need a war experienced guy in there this time...

[DrFunkenstein]

24. The Sad Truth

Is that the media are much more comfortable about talking about process and pop-psychology over policy (my conspiracy theory is that they were communications majors, not journalists).

Dean with his internet grassroots and "You have the power" self-help slogans play very well for a lazy media. Kudos to Dean for gaming it for all its worth.

But that doesn't make him a better President.

If Clark can help make Dean appear fixated on the past rather than the future (mostly true), that will be a boost for Kerry. (Incidentally, I think Clark is a good guy and is a pretty solid #2 for me).

[Hawkeye-X]

8. Nope.

A 10 point drop from the national polls tells me that Kerry is not a good candidate. I have not proven anyone's point.

Hawkeye-X

[dsc]

7. BTW Here is a list of issue related threads.

I found them by engaging in a blatently difficult proceedure. I typed Dean in the search archive and listed all the issue related threads on the first two pages. You owe us an apology. I have my doubts we will get one.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=77934

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=78404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=74798

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76706

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75508

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=59846

[sandnsea]

11. One

They're mostly responses to Dean's campaign foibles, campaign financing, the confederate flag flap, his pre-war no-Iraq plan. The first is a link to a speech with no comment at all, and another is a full speech with no specific policy issue either. The only one that's really policy is yours, the gay rights one.

If Dean didn't make so many campaign gaffes, he might still be in last place. Interesting.

[dsc]

13. They are issue threads

Both of the speeches are chock full of issues (comments or not) and regardless of why the confederate flag stuff may have been written I only included ones with issues. One was about medical care the other was about guns. Yes, there is some process in those threads but there were also issues.

[sandnsea]

14. He's talking about posts directed at issues

These are posts that arose because of the campaign, not that came because someone wanted to discuss an issue.

[dsc]

17. The two speeches were

posted due to being speeches. They were both about issues. I fail to see how those don't count. The speech in California was posted at the time it was made. As to war plan, I know that was also posted in real time. Again, these threads were about issues, like it or not. In point of fact, under your standard even mine might not count. I posted that in response to a thread about gay rights posted trashing Dean's record in that regard. Though as I pointed out I posted that several times in the past.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. You Picked Some Doozies!

Most of these are campaign driven issues, not health care, the environment, etc. I'll give you the gay rights one. But the broad stump spech doesn't count, especially when you have Dean saying:

"In 1996, I wrote a letter to my senators saying they oughta vote for Yucca Mountain because we got a nuclear power plant and I wanted to get the stuff out of my state. Having run for president, I have seen the light. I¹m not going to promise you I¹m going to be against Yucca Mountain..."

And the final one is so wrong it hurts:

"Dean unveiled his seven-point Iraq Reconstruction plan on April 9--months before Kerry unveiled his."

This speech was a complete cribbing of Kerry's JANUARY address! Not only does Dean borrow Kerry's ideas, he actually borrows phrases! Remember Dean talking about how we are not Romans? Take a look at Kerry's speech...

In any case, I hardly see this as a refutation of my original point.

[dsc]

53. You purported that Dean supporters don't post issue threads

It should be noted that I have posted well over a dozen such threads. You have not posted in any of the three that I have recently looked back up. (the gay rights thread I sited here nor the two tax threads that I didn't).

[DrFunkenstein]

56. I Didn't So NO Dean Policy Threads Existed

In fact, I will give definite props for being one of the "good" Dean supporters that is willing to see both sides of an issue, and - in fact - post policy threads. My beef is not directly with you, but with general trends.

Kerry people regularly post issue-oriented threads, but Dean people rarely do. Not "never," but rarely.

[LuminousX]

55. Romans... no one ever references the Romans when talking empire...

[burr]

96. thanks for the list...

now it is time fur the evil doctor funkystine give us a listing of Kerry Issue threads! :evilfrown:

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. There certainly is a lesson that can be drawn from this

Dean can get things done. Dean set out with the goal of ammasing more supporters and more campaign funding than any other candidate. He is accomplishing that. Kerry's campaign can not say the same thing. If Kerry can't beat a previously unknown governor from a small state, what does it say about his ability to get things done?

[LSparkle]

12. There is a difference between campaigning

and governing. Kerry's experience puts him far ahead of any of our other candidates -- that's what we need now (not another governor who doesn't know his way around DC).

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. If he can't organize a decent campaign

what makes you think that he can govern? Being a legislator is a lot different than being an executive. But I guess Kerry's learned a lot serving as Lt. Governor under Mike Dukakis.

Dean seems to know hsi way around DC pretty well. He is racking up quite a few endorsements of Democratic members of Congress recently. It certainly says a lot about Kerry and the other members of Congress who are running when their colleagues pass them over for endorsements.

[blm]

20. Kerry's just not good attacking other Democrats. He's GREAT against Repubs

and has always shined with excellent campaigns.

Dean doesn't give two craps about attacking other Democrats because he did it so often throughout his career as governor while he buddied up to his GOP allies and AGAINST the Dems there.

[dsc]

21. He had one tough campaign

He lives in a virtual one party state (especially nationally). His win against Weld was impressive but that was his only tough race. It is hard to make the case he is a Republican dragon slayer.

[DrFunkenstein]

25. He Had A Tough Race Against Shannon, As Well

When he first ran for Senate - and decided to reject PAC and soft money - it was a very tight race.

[dsc]

26. I was referring to tough races against Republicans

which was blm's point. Again, he has hardly been a slayer of big league Republicans.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. He is having an even tougher campaign against Dean

Don't get me wrong, I like John Kerry. He is a decent man with a career anyone would be proud of. But he has sure f***ed up his Presidential campaign. A year ago the race was his to lose. And he did that. He was ahead in polls in NH, and he was doing great with fundraising. Now he is trailing Dean in virtually every state, including Massachusettes. Now it appears that he can't even win in the state where the voters know him the best. Is that who you want at the top of the ticket next November?

[blm]

71. Dean beats up Democrats better. Kerry beats up Republicans better.

Dean had lots of practice beating up on Democrats because he treated most of them like crap while he was governor.

Kerry assembled the best team to beat Bush, while Dean assembled a team to beat other Democrats.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

76. Let me remind you of what you have forgotten...

in your haste to attack me personally.

By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

>>>>>>>
He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Many of the people who were his allies and adversaries in Montpelier over his 20-year political career have been quietly bemused by the liberal persona he’s built as he campaigns in Iowa and New Hampshire, especially through his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

>>>>>

Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.
>>>>>>>

and this gem:

Mention Howard Dean to the folks who know him best, and they shake their heads in awe, marveling at how their very own "Ho-Ho" has muscled his way to the forefront of Democratic presidential politics.

They see him on TV, firing up the liberals, and they're dumbfounded, because they always knew him as a tightwad governor who spent 10 years excoriating liberals. They see him wowing the "flatlanders" (that's everyone outside of Vermont), whipping them into a frenzy, and they can't square that with the little guy who wore frayed shirts and goofy ties and delivered speeches that lulled listeners into a stupor.

<snip>
And whatever happened to the Howard Dean who, when asked to render an opinion about the governor of Texas back in 1999, always gave the same answer: "I like George Bush, he's a good guy."
<snip>

Instead he would often rant at his detractors, calling them "lunatics," or confronting them with "the finger in the face," as Nelson calls it. At times he would get so mad that the skin on his thick wrestler's neck would redden to the color of raw meat. No wonder some folks used to call him "Little Napoleon."

<snip>
Meanwhile, the Republicans liked him just fine, because they were simpatico. Dean was old money (a descendant of whaling captains), with roots on Park Avenue and in the Hamptons. They also liked that he wasn't a "bleeding heart" - as evidenced by the time he publicly berated a single mother on welfare, saying, "You don't think you ought to work for a living?"

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/7215420.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. Dean certainly did treat Democrats like crap when he was Governor

So much so, that they kept renominating him and reelecting him.

[blm]

27. Weld was THE most popular Republican in Mass.

and a Governor.

Kerry also took on the most popular Republicans of the Reagan-Bush era and exposed their corruption which probably led to Bill Clinton's victory in 92.

Why discount the man's real triumphs?

[dsc]

29. I am not

I called his win over Weld impressive. And it was. But he also lives in one of the most Democratic states in the country. He ran with Clinton's coattails. And all his other races were easy. I do try to give other candidates their do. When I find Kerry is correct I say so. But he won one tough race and that is it. He deserves credit for that but not a rep as some destroyer of Republicans.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

77. I was talking about 1996

which is when Clinton and Kerry were on the ballot at the same time. Next time you bemoan memory loss it would be nice if you bothered to get your facts straight.

For the record here is the link to those results.

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/1996/MA96.htm

Clinton 61.4% Kerry 52.2% which is pretty much what I was saying. Clinton did significantly better in Massachusetts than Kerry did. So who has the memory loss?

[blm]

78. I wasn't referring to 96 at all.

I was referring to the point that Kerry is ABLE to take on Republicans and his taking on Republicans and exposing them to a great degree enabled Clinton to win in 92.

btw...in 96 Weld wasn't just ANY Republican. He was the most POPULAR Republican in Massachusetts.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

82. Why do you take generalizations so personally?

I find that bizarre. Whenever I make a post that speaks generally of a group of people who can't remember political events of the last 10-20 years, you hop up and down as if I was only speaking to you.

Do us both a favor and stop doing that. My posts are WRITTEN straIght forward and minus much of the vitriol that YOU and others add on your own.

[dsc]

98. It was a direct response to my post

and not an original one. If it didn't apply to me it didn't belong in a response {b]to my post. That is my point.

[blm]

100. We've had this goround before, dsc...

I post for the general observer, if there was something directed more personally I'll let you know by addressing you.

[Freddie Stubbs]

112. Clinton won becasue of the economy

And perhaps due to a certain diminutive Texan with a large bank account. Do you remember the phrase "It's the economy, stupid?"

[blm]

119. ies...but by 92 IranContra was a bigass thorn in Bush's side.

And that was thanks to John Kerry. How soon we forget that time.

[George_Bonanza]

35. Bush organizes a great campaign

So by your logic, since he can nail that all-important campaigning thing, he should be a great president. Face it, campaigning is crap that prevents a lot of would-be great presidents sputter and fail. If we truly want equality in the future, campaigning needs to be reformed so it's not money that wins, it's the message. It's troubling that politics is reserved for the rich and/or famous.

[RetroLounge]

23. Sorry, pollyanna, but if he can't campaign, he can't win,

and so he doesn't get to govern.

Look it up...

[Sully]

31. That's all it is for you guys isn't it!

"He can't campaign" You guys are going to get a lesson in campaigning in about 7 weeks. Then we'll talk!

[LuminousX]

34. So you are saying Kerry CAN campaign... so that is important...

Interesting.

Time for Kerry to put his campaign where his supporters' mouths are.

I'm prepared for the Kerry machine to kick in and shove Dean back into place. We'll see...

[Sully]

38. Thanks for the props

You bet he can campaign and we are going to WIN Iowa and all the pundits, pollsters and Deaniacs will be gasping for air! Because... I see Kerry people... in caucuses, voting and naming delegates!

[LuminousX]

39. We'll see. The proof is in the pudding.

[blm]

85. Dean had to campaign on deception to get ahead.

Glad you all see fit to reward him now. You'll be crying when the RNC plays his deceptions 40 times a day every day for months.

He lied about the others when he said they supported Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest.

He lied when he called those well to his left, "Bushlite."

He lied whenever he accused the others of giving Bush a "blank check" on IWR when he supported a bill that had much the same guidelines.

this is from the debate in Oct. 2002.

Kennedy, and presumably from context Robert Byrd agrees, doesn't seem to see a whole lot of difference between Biden-Lugar and the version that passed.

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate4.html

<snip>
The test in the Gephardt-Lieberman-Warner Resolution says to defend against the continuing threat from Iraq -- that is the operative word. And in Biden-Lugar it talks about dealing with the threat of Iraq is "so grave" that force should be used. New words, "so grave." The President already said it was a grave situation.

In effect, if that was to be accepted -- the President already said it was a grave situation. It would, in effect, grant unilaterally, without any involvement in the international community, any effort whatsoever to try and bring allies into this, give the authority for the President to go ahead with war, as the President has indicated he may very well do.
more...

[sandnsea]

15. That's what Bush does

Gets lots of money to brainwash his right wing nut jobs.

[Padraig18]

18. Are you saying Dean supporters are...

... right wing nut jobs?

[sandnsea]

30. Right wing?

No, not right wing.

:-)

Calm down. It's a joke, more or less.

[LuminousX]

37. Uh-huh...

Yeah, I feel better.

Doesn't matter. I still love you and will work with you to defeat Bush when this mess is finalized.

[rabidhamster]

43. I'm saying something more than that...

They are the Borg reborn.

[LuminousX]

45. LOL

Here I thought it was just a cult... now it is a full scale technological biological entity that is nigh impossible to destroy. Wow.

Do we have any proof of Dean's Faustian bargain yet? Who is doing the demonic opposition research on Dean... we need something regarding baby blood... stat!

We must do everything we can to make sure Dean loses, er... to make sure the right person wins.

[rabidhamster]

50. Dean will lose on his own

Didn't you hear? Jean Luc defeated the Borg by disconnecting the head borg's brain tube.

Since Dean is running on one issue I guess all we need to do is disconnect his one tube.

By the way, did you know that the beverage of choice during the Jonestown massacre was Koolaid laced with poison? It's a nice coincidence that you adhere Dr. Dean's name to it...

[LuminousX]

52. Well of course

Dean supporters are all Kool Aid drinkers.

I'm glad you are so confident Dean will be so easy to defeat. I sure hope his opposition get their asses in gear soon, time is running out.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LA4Kerry]

58. Hmmm....

If Dean gets the nomination it will be time for ALL of us to drink the Kool Aid!

[mitchum]

61. not all of them...

some very fine people support Dean. But they're still wrong.

[Duder]

32. Kerrybot Needs Re-Reprogramming

'Memo to Dean manager Joe Trippi: Time to start building Kerry up!'

http://slate.msn.com/id/2091641/

[dsc]

36. Kaus is lying scum

the fact he is telling tales pleasing to Dean's effort doesn't alter that fact.

Here is one example of his usual crapola.

More evidence for the theory that the Democratic opposition to this bill was 60% posturing. ...

It was a bad bill and we know it.

[Duder]

41. I agree it was a bad bill but...

I'm not so sure that there wasn't a lot of posturing as well.

Kaus may indeed be lying scum but when a lot of others like Josh Marshall have said: "John Kerry is a confused candidate with no message and no rhetorical self-discipline," at some point the fault doesn't lie with the media, campaign staff or other candidates, but with the senator himself, imo.

[DrFunkenstein]

40. Daily Howler: "Mickey Kaus, Circus Clown"

MICKEY KAUS, CIRCUS CLOWN: With his recent comments on Candidate Kerry, Mickey Kaus has finally won election as a certified, unionized, full-fledged circus clown. Try to believe that he wrote it:

Kerry Mystery Challenge: What is it that makes so many people, myself included, intensely dislike Sen. John Kerry? This is the great mystery surrounding his 2004 presidential campaign. I don’t think “aloof and arrogant,” the traditional Kerry negatives, are exactly it—he may be aloof and arrogant, but there are plenty of aloof and arrogant people I don’t rule out instantly due to their gross characterological deficiency, which is what I do with Kerry. It’s not just his “long record of opportunism,” though again that’s part of it.

I say we harness the power of the Web to solve the mystery! A copy of Kerry’s undoubtedly riveting book, The New War, to the kf reader (or non-kf reader) who most precisely describes the root of Kerry’s loathsomeness. ...(References to descriptions of Kerry by others may also qualify for the prize .)

... My own attempt: I think it starts with the phony furrowed brow. Perpetually furrowed and perpetually phony. It’s been furrowed for so long I doubt he could unfurrow it now even if his advisers convinced him that would be a good tack to take!

...Then add the sense that Kerry would never ever take a principled or unpopular stand if losing the argument might actually threaten to derail his precious political career. (He apparently made some anti-affirmative-action noises in 1992 and quickly backed down when the obvious groups complained.) Add in relentless, obvious self-promotion to the point of indignity—sucking up to Gore while jockeying for the vice-presidential nod in 2000, for example (as described by The New Republic’s Ryan Lizza).

Plus the way his equally ambitious supporters call him “JFK.” It’s creepy. The man’s an animatronic Lincoln. There’s a metal plate in the back of his head—under all the glued-on “hair”—that they open up and stick screwdrivers in when he gets back to his office.... There, that’s my best shot. But I’m not sure it’s quite there. I know you can do better!

Let’s see. Kerry has a furrowed brow, and Kaus is troubled by his hair. By one of those mysterious coincidences, Kaus’ concern with Kerry’s hair surfaced hours before Matt Drudge began flogging the topic. Just another one of those events in which great minds coincide.
Does anyone believe Mickey Kaus is this stupid? We’ve met Kaus once—sharing a pleasant group meal—and noticed no signs of the fatuous soul he now directs at the next White House race. But in Campaign 2000, Mickey Kaus and his vacuous cohort all spilled out of their Volkswagen bus, making an unvarnished, two-year-long joke of your White House election. There’s no reason to doubt that they’ll do so again. Will earth tones give way to John Kerry’s hair? Yes, they will, if this vacuous crew has its way with your White House election.

A few months back, we flagged an astonishing piece about Candidate Kerry in The New Republic. That piece was written by the egregious Michel Crowley, co-author of one of the most stunningly dishonest bits of “journalism” in the entire 2000 campaign. At THE HOWLER, we don’t have the slightest idea what could lie behind such work. But no—we don’t believe that Kaus is this stupid. Maybe we should conduct a great contest to guess why he functions this way.

The Kauses made a joke of your last election. There’s every sign that they’ll do so again. And the time for courtesy is gone, long gone. American citizens who love their democracy will jeer such men as they move through the streets. Mickey Kaus, the circus clown, wants to make a joke of another election. That election, of course, belongs to you—until, like the last one, it’s stolen.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh120402.shtml

[LuminousX]

33. So what do you propose? Complete character assassination?

How far are you willing to go to make sure Dean loses, uh, I mean, to make sure Kerry wins?

[DrFunkenstein]

44. The Fact That You Can Come Away From My Post With That Says Alot

Why is it "character assassination" to compare what the actual Presidencies of the two men would look like?

I'm talking about p-p-p-policy here. I know it's a dirty word to alot of Deanies, but "character assassination" is a little much.

[LuminousX]

47. I'm just asking... if Kerry is the better person and Dean is winning

What are you willing to do to rectify that situation?

[rabidhamster]

48. Kerry is the better person

Dean's being elevated by the press, because it will make a better story when he falls on his head like humpty dumpty.

Isn't it weird that his initials are the same as Humpty's?

[LuminousX]

51. So what are you willing to do to alter that if you believe it is true?

Are you just going to shrug your shoulders and let the press dictate who is going to win? How are you going to help Kerry overcome Dean's obviously manufactured support? Clearly, the polls are rigged, the people are stupid, Dean is getting a free ride, Dean is lying, and Kerry is struggling.

What are you going to do?

[Scott Lee]

74. So why is he running behind?

When was the last time a party did NOT choose the frontrunner to go against the other party's candidate? Is this what you'd like to see?

[DrFunkenstein]

57. Do You Think I Haven't Been Doing Grassroots Work?

Not only do I do work in NYC - AND New Hampshire - I'm also very active in the Kerry forum in the (gasp) POLICY SECTION!

I don't think anyone can accuse me of being a lousy supporter for Kerry. Although I have credited the other candidates when they deserved it, and criticized Kerry when I disagreed, I have never faltered one moment in advocating his candidacy to the best of my abilities.

[rabidhamster]

49. P-P-Poor Dean

P-P-P Poor Dean.

Maybe that's how he got out of Vietnam!

[drfemoe]

59. His agenda

like attacking Dean with every breath?

NONE of the questions / comments I post about Kerry are ever answered.

Posts about Dean's policy et al are always ambushed by either Kerry Pioneers or Clark's mini army.

I think Kerry's supporters are just as shallow and spiteful as he is. :puke:

[DrFunkenstein]

67. "Posts about Dean's policy et al are always ambushed"

Jesus Christ, what the hell are we doing here if we aren't trying to debate what U.S. policies should be? Do you want a personality contest?

We are not voting for Buddy-in-Chief; we are voting for Chief Diplomat, Commander-in-Chief, Chief Executive, and Manager of the Economy.

If you think debating policy is shallow and spiteful, than call me spiteful!

[helleborient]

60. So basically the American people are too stupid to notice?

Is that what I'm supposed to understand from this?

The only administrative position John Kerry has held in government is as Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts. The presidency is an executive position...not a legislative one.

John Kerry's much publicized "throwing the medals over the fence" at the White House interestingly involved John Kerry throwing another solider's medals over the fence and keeping his own...the first example of the Kerry "nuanced" positions or outright political expediency less charitable observers see. Was he saving those medals for future personal political use? Courage?

In 1972, John Kerry moved his home to locate a possibly easier district (an open district instead of running against an incumbent) in which to run for the U.S. House using his famed "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" as a key part of his losing bid for Congress. Massachusetts voted for McGovern that year, but Kerry lost his bid for Congress. Again, the move of his home brings up questions of expediency rather than true leadership and courage.

John Kerry's supporters publicize this part of Kerry's history over and over...but I see no mention of Kerry throwing another soldier's medals instead of his own...or Kerry moving to draw an easier district in a failed bid for Congress.

Also, Kerry's much vaunted liberal standing. This seems based on some social issues, but Kerry's supporters talk little about Kerry's avowedly centrist stances on education and crime. His support for "No Child Left Behind"...the draconian system that results in teaching to the test instead of real education...and was passed with Kerry's "yes" vote with no guarantee of any funding. Kerry now says he will get that funding when he's elected...why didn't he insist on it the first time? Political expediency? Voting with a "popular" President? Kerry has also been a strong supporter of "public school choice" in the face of strong opposition from the majority of Democrats.

These are things Kerry's supporters don't want to talk about in this nomination process...but yet accuse other candidates of "hiding" things...hmmmmmm.

[drfemoe]

62. you have done it again

.. killed a Kerry Pioneer thread by stating facts. tsk tsk

[NewYorkerfromMass]

63. There were few facts there

and a lot if BS.
Kerry in fact had a choice of where to establish residence for his '72 campaign.
Kerry never said anywhere he threw "his" medals, and he did in fact throw "his" ribbons.
And to suggest Kerry is not a liberal on ANY given issue is to ignore a very long and irrefutable record.

[helleborient]

65. Reputable reference resources in most libraries say otherwise...

Kerry's centrism on education and crime is written up in Congressional Quarterly's "Politics in America"

I suppose one of the most respected non-partisan publishers is to be tarred and feathered for not supporting the Kerry line?

Here's Slate's take on it:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087554/

I'm not accusing him of lying - I'm raising the question of "nuanced morality" that Slate raises.

If it doesn't bother you, fine. It does bother me...I encourage all to read it.

This quote from the University of Chicago student newspaper last week summarizes well my concerns on this matter:

"Kerry supporters want to discuss his war credentials, how he fought valiantly in Vietnam and then became a rabid activist for peace when he returned. Since Democrats are historically less trusted on national security than Republicans, why not nominate a man who has actual combat experience! It’s true; Kerry is a decorated war hero. However, his campaign staff is not quick to tell the story of how Kerry threw his war medals over the fence of the White House during an antiwar protest. Actually, they were another veteran’s medals, but don’t worry, Kerry’s medals are safely tucked away in one of his many luxurious homes."

The link is here:

http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoints/articles/2003/11/14/if_youre_going_to_vo.php

[NewYorkerfromMass]

116. Kerry never said he threw "his war medals"

and when asked he said he threw the medals of others who couldn't come to the demonstration.

[sandnsea]

64. Issues please

Is this an issue post? I may have missed the issue. You can bring up things that have been answered a million times if you want, but nothing Kerry has done compares to Howard Dean going skiing while every other candidate was drawn into the civil rights movement or serving the country in some meaningful way in the 60's. Howard skied through the 60's, what a guy.

And Kerry does support charter schools, which have provided alternative and specialized education opportunities. But he doesn't support vouchers. And I've already posted on NCLB, there are good things in there and Kerry's Education Plan addresses the exact things teachers are complaining about. And as to kids being able to go to different schools when their school isn't doing well, I've used that myself in Montana for my own kids and was very grateful to have that opportunity. And when parents call to get their kids out of a particular school, the Board of Education takes notice and changes are made, pretty quickly. The principal of the particular school was fired and alot of changes were made. Having that choice does make a difference in schools overall. Vouchers for private school is where things go really bad.

So was education the issue? Or Kerry bashing, I really wasn't sure.

[helleborient]

66. Education and returning fire from those who want to stoop to the personal

If you want to talk skiiing, I will certainly talk throwing someone else's medals instead of your own.

And trying to be duplicitous in taking both credit for being a war hero and a war resister.

This nuanced morality is a serious issue to me. It has followed him from the medal throwing incident through the botched handling of firing his campaign manager.

Leadership?? Not what I would like to see.

[DrFunkenstein]

69. "Duplicitous" And "Nuanced" To Serve Honorably And Protest The Policy?

Nice attempt to spin this as some sort of character flaw that connects his war experiences with firing Jim Jordan, but that dog won't hunt.

----------

"If you felt that strongly about the war, you would not have gone," Shannon said during a televised debate. "I was very proud that you changed your mind."

But two nights later, in another debate, Kerry jacked up the issue to another level.

"You impugn the service of veterans in that war by saying they are somehow dopes or wrong for going," he said.

Shannon refused to yield.

"John, you know that dog won't hunt," he said. "I don't owe anybody an apology."

<>

[sandnsea]

70. Let's compare

Kerry:

During 30 days under almost constant fire, he saves the lives' of his crew. If he wanted to keep his medals for that act, I see nothing wrong with it. Coming back home and leading the fight to stop the war. Throwing his ribbons, along with another soldier's medals, along with others who threw back various documents to symbolize that there was nothing honorable about the war. Which is very different than honor in saving your crews' lives. You really ought to read this before you decide.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Dean:

Arranging for a personal doctor to write a letter for the draft board and then later presenting it as a routine physical. Going skiing.

[DrFunkenstein]

68. Why Must I Always Tear Your Posts To Pieces?

1. Kerry was also the de facto administer for the State Prosecution office because the real guy was infirm. Not to mention the officer of a swift boat. Did I mention the population of Dean's governance? 564,964 as of the year 2000. There are cities bigger than that, which are alot more difficult to manage than people spread over a rural area.

2. I've posted about the medals before, and I'm sure you've seen it. If not, here it is again.

-------------
From Kerry's perspective, of course, it was all pretty complicated and he never really understood what the brouhaha was all about. The medals were, after all, a highly personal matter. He'd ultimately decided to throw his also-important ribbons, and the medals he tossed were on behalf of some disabled vets. He never claimed to have thrown his own medals, and certainly the more important matter was that he had enlisted and fought bravely in the war, and had then come back to protest the atrocities he had participated in. And, it should be noted, in the "60 Minutes" interview with Kerry, which ran a mere four weeks after the 1971 demonstration on the Mall, Kerry refers to the "the emotion in the faces of those men who threw their medals back ... if you watch their faces, there was agony in them as they threw those things back," and so on, continuously referring to the medal-throwers in the third person, never including himself.

A couple pages after the photo of Sachs and others throwing their medals back are two different close-ups of the piles the vets left in their wake. "Look at that," Kerry says. "You see? A big deal was made about whether I threw back my medals or ribbons or whatever, but look. People threw everything. Ribbons. Discharge papers. Photographs. Certificates ..."

Indeed, that's what the photos show. In one photo, a veteran is throwing his cane. Kerry swallows. Slightly shakes his head.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/08/10/kerry/index2.html
----------------


3. "The move of his home brings up questions of expediency rather than true leadership and courage." Really? The man wanted to serve in public office, learned his lesson, went to law school, graduated and became a top State Legislator that put away mob bosses and set up a rape counseling center before anyone ever heard of such a thing (not to mention becoming prominent in environmental work).

4. Do you honestly believe that Kerry would EVER let NCLB stand as it is? He has said repeatedly that he would be true to Kennedy's vision with funding and local flexibility.

5. I notice that these are mostly character attacks rather than comparing, say, foreign policies or economic plans.

[Scott Lee]

75. Oh goody - more "Vermont is so small" bullshit

You know Arkansas isn't that big either - but it produced one Bill Clinton. Maybe we shouldn't try to go for a two term popular president again, huh Dr.?

You whine and moan about all the "character issues" surrounding Dean, and the so called lack of policy and issue related threads - then proceed to lob arguments against Dean like the size of his state, and Kerry's medal tossing prowess.

Physician, heal thy bad seff!

[sandnsea]

80. Arkansas is poorer and diverse

What Vermont taxpayers were willing to pay for and what worked in a Vermont lily-white landscape doesn't translate to the rest of the country. There are major differences between Clinton and Dean, the demographics, politics and economics of the state each governed is just one.

[Scott Lee]

89. Well, cupcake, I grew up in Vermont...

And your assessment of it is 100% bullsquish.

The vast majority of Vermonters were not privileged or rich whites. They tended to be rural farming families, although Vt is host to a lot of out of staters with holiday homes there.

Did this come from the "Dean dodged the draft" drawer?

[sandnsea]

91. Cupcake???

Says more about you, and Vermont, than it does about me.

Arkansas has rural farming families too. Except up until just a few years ago, many of them lived in shacks with woods floors and outdoor plumbing. I know, my brother-in-laws white family was one of them. Poverty is entrenched in the south, Clinton helped to change alot of that.

Unlike some people in Vermont:

"But John Irving, for one, is not waiting around to find out. He's starting up his own private school--and stealing the principal away from the private academy where state senator Shumlin sends his kids. "My response is as brutally upper class as I can make it," says Irving. "I'm not putting my child in an underfunded public school system." If he can't get his new school up and running, says Irving, "I'm moving out of here." And he's avoiding the local press "because I don't want to make my child a target of trailer-park envy." Irving, by the way, is a liberal Democrat. But in Vermont, it seems, the whole world is being turned upside down."

Trailer-park envy?????

Keep Vermont. This is the EXACT kind of Democrat that's been running working people out of the Democratic party for years.

[Scott Lee]

106. Yes, "Cupcake".

So you pick up one disgruntled Vermonter and he's the representative of an entire state and a Dean governship.

Wow! I suppose all Black people can sing and dance too? Your stereotyping broad brush swath is truly inspiring.

You antiDeans simply cannot handle that this guy left Vermont, for the most part, in much better shape than he found it. Tell all us uninformed heehaws, if you will, how many states the other Democratic candidates governed.

Take your time, and use a number 2 pencil please.

[sandnsea]

110. Ignore

I refuse to be treated that way.

[DrFunkenstein]

109. You Sound As If This Is Coming From Nowhere

My post was a response to someone else that spoke about Dean's impressive experience as an Executive of a state (while Kerry has no leadership experience or something), and repeated cheap, unfounded slander about Kerry's medals.

Yet somehow refuting someone else's arguments constitutes "whining and moaning."

PS - I liked the play on "Dr." and "physician!" Have to give you propers for that one.

[Scott Lee]

113. So are you admitting then, that state size means nothing? Cool.

At least we're getting somewhere.

Remember that governorship is like sexual prowess. It's not the size, but how you use it, that counts.

[genius]

88. The American people voted for Reagan. Hopefully they won't

make the same mistake in the Democratic primary and vote for Howard the racist.

[quaker bill]

83. 6.5 minutes

It took 6.5 minutes for Kerry live and in person to nuance his way to an explanation of his IWR vote.

Dean's platform on the issues holds up well against the other candidates. Sure some are a bit to the left on some issues, others a bit to the right.

Kerry is a good progressive and I like him. If he gets the nomination, he will have my wholehearted support.

That being aside, this general election will not be decided on whose liberal credentials or policies stack up best. There is no magic policy bullet. Seeking it out is getting lost in the details.

We cannot have a candidate who will be out gamed by the right.

Kerry and much of the Democratic leadership were out gamed by Bush*/Rove. They were put in the box of being either pro-war or anti-american.

Bob Graham had the imagination and the intestinal fortitude to deny the paradigm and oppose the war as an american concerned for the security of the country. He stood and spoke passionately against IWR.

Having lived in FL all these years, I never gave Graham credit for much imagination or backbone. But apparently he was stronger and smarter than Kerry and Edwards. I wouldn't have believed it, had I not watched.

Of course Graham was the Democratic leader on the Senate intelligence committee. Why didn't they listen to him and support him in opposition? After all, he was the leader from their own party with the most access to the needed information.

It is called political expediency. Say all you want about Dean, but these people had the job and let us down.

[sandnsea]

84. That LONG?????

You want a President who sums up a war in 30 seconds or less??

This is what Howard Dean said in February 2003:

You want a President who says let the inspections continue without recognizing that the military build-up is what got the inspections in the first place? Who says all of this and yet had no plan in Sept 2002 to do anything about it?

"He is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver.

He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War.

He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under UN Security Council Resolutions.

And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb.

Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country.

So I want to be clear.

Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given..."

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5542

"In the past, UN inspections destroyed more weapons of mass destruction capacity in Iraq than were destroyed in the Gulf War.

The inspectors are now back inside Iraq."

You want a President who admits the possibility of chemical and biological weapons productions and is willing to let a rogue nation continue that work? The aluminum tubes and yellowcake intelligence was more damning than trucks driving around and Howard Dean ignores that.

"See, I don't think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in."

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5781

The American people are NOT going to vote for this. He is all over the road on Saddam Hussein and HE is the one using the Iraw War Vote for "political positioning for the presidential election".

[Octafish]

86. The US needs a President who knows what to do.

Sen. John Kerry has been working to make life better for ALL Americans his entire public life.

Great post, Funkenstein!

[Scott Lee]

90. Like flake out on a vote because it's too hard.

Wow to go, Kerry! Ride that message baby!

[sandnsea]

92. Like flake out on full gay marriage

Because...???? And flake out on backing up his belief that Saddam had WMD and must be disarmed with.... no plan to accomplish the goal? And flake out on Yucca Mtn after writing letters encouraging it be passed? And flake out on Vermont Medicaid by putting people in HMO's and implementing premiums, deductibles and co-pays?

Kerry's worst mistakes pale in comparison to Dean's.

[Scott Lee]

105. Is there a "partial" Gay Marriage?

And blame Dean for bad to lying US intelligence on Iraq (that was swift)? And blame Dean for not backing a clearly immoral and illegal war? And changing his mind on the Yucca Flats issue because he got crucial updated scientific information about it? And making the Health Care situation in Vermont better than it had EVER been before him?

Good Lord, what's next? Hey, maybe you can bring up his kitchen again, or that tuxedo story! I like that one.

[genius]

87. Kerry is better than Dean.

I'll agree with you on that.

[FrenchieCat]

94. Me too (n/t)

[slinkerwink]

95. the kind of sloppy campaign Kerry's running makes me think he'll

be an absolutely crappy President.

[blm]

97. For sure he didn't prepare for Dean's campaign full of attacks and lies.

Too bad he prepared the best team against Bush. The team Bush wants silenced and uses Dean to do it.

Bush doesn't want to face the truth about 9-11 and how BCCI and IranContra are linked to events around 9-11 and Iraq. Kerry and his team are completely prepared with that info. Kerry has encyclopedic knowledge of BCI and IranContra and all the players. He has Gary Hart, Rand Beers, Max Cleland, Gen. William Perry and Joe Wilson who all have the goods on BushInc. Dean and his supporters in the media are trying to make sure that Bush is not confronted by Kerry and his team that have built up the BEST case against Bush.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

99. "Encyclopedic knowledge" is not going to beat Bush

I realize that Kerry has a great team to take Bush down, they have all the inside info. But this is not going to get anyone elected.

Kerry and Dean (and the other Dems) are not that far off as far as policies go. They all want better economic policies, reformed health care, equal rights, etc, all good Democratic values. There are some minor differences in policy, but when you constrast with Bush, the Dems are essentially the same. We are the party of workers rights, equal rights, etc.

But even this isn't enough to beat Bush. We have to have a candidate who can excite people, get them to the polls, make them BELIEVE that things can change. Dean is the only candidate I've seen who generates that kind of hope and excitement.

[blm]

101. He makes most people wretch.

Don't you see that with all the publicity that Dean has received, he still has turned OFF most of the those Democrats paying attention who support others? It would be so easy to go along with the guy getting all the media attention, but he doesn't excite those of us who support others and he makes most of us sick to our stomachs with his deceptions. It's like watching Benny Hinn....those people he excites have hope, too, but I want to throw objects at the tv.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrFunkenstein]

108. Gee, Only Two Choices - Kiss Dean's Ass Or Vote For Bush

If Dean gets the nomination, I will support him however futile the effort may seem. Until then, I will fight to get the man who will make the best President elected, which in this case also happens to be somehow with something better than a snowball's chance of winning.

I know you Burr, you're a smart cookie. This false dilemma crap is beyond you.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

103. A handful of people on DU is not "most people"

He certainly has his detractors, all of the candidates do, but he is consistently bringing in endorsements and support. People are coming around. Even Will Pitt. :)

So maybe a few bitter Kerry or Gep supporters will stay home rather than vote for Dean, I doubt it will make a difference.

[burr]

104. true...

it hasn't made a difference among Democrats in Massachusetts, where Dean is leading in that primary's polls.

[blm]

117. The electorate attracted to the other candidates

are who I mean and are less likely to support Dean. Edwards, Clark and Gephardt supporters are more likely to be attracted to Kerry and vice-versa. Aside from DU.

[Scott Lee]

118. That's why Dean is ahead in money, support, endorsements,

and most polls.

Well there it is. Thanks for clearing up why he'll lose.

[blm]

120. You missed the point, again. The OTHERS have more supporters

who are obviously attracted to a different type of candidate, even though they are exposed to Dean the most through the media.

That's the category who likes the more even keeled candidate whose campaigns are based on substance with matching records - not hot rhetoric that doesn't match their records. Dean doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. The others do.

[Scott Lee]

107. "Most"? Who, you and your bridge club?

Can you explain why, then, Dean is outpolling, out-organizing, out-fund raising, outdoing the other candidates?

For a guy who makes "most people wretch", he's doing amazingly well!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

111. Mystery to me

And it's a mystery why people think that Dean has LESS of a chance to beat Bush than other candidates who can't seem to generate any excitement about their candidacy?

Dean -- and Clark, to a somewhat lesser extent, partly because he started so late -- are the only candidates that seem to get masses of people fired up to hit the streets, register voters, etc. Which is what we need to fight the horrific media madness and apparent blind spot people have for Bush.

If Dean (or Clark) can't beat Bush, no one can.

[Scott Lee]

114. I know. It's getting almost delusional

They are playing up their candidates "ability to beat Bush" entirely in their heads, because here on planet earth I see a Democratic candidate who out-fund raises, out-energizes, out-polls all the others and his name is Howard Dean.

We get called personality cultists, but I ask you, who is more prone to personality worship than one who is reduced to inventing strong points for their heroes?

[Meshuga]

115. I also disagree with his IWR vote...

but that vote is not everything. Dean and his supporters are milking it because the IWR vote brought Dean to his current position.

Dean has not set a positive vision that would inspire me to support him. Dean is allowing himself to be defined by what he's against and not his vision.

In my opinion Dean is so big because Kerry made two big mistakes: 1- the IWR vote and 2- by not ignoring Dean giving him attention and elevating him even more. Otherwise Kerry would be the front runner.

I agree with you, Kerry is the better man! I think Kerry is a great candidate!

[kerrygoddess]

121. chat now

Join us at 3 PM for a chat with Frank Lowenstein of our foreign policy team about John Kerry's speech today to the Council of Foreign Relations in New York. The title of the speech is “Making America Secure Again: Setting the Right Course for Foreign Policy," and the text will be up on the web site at 2 PM. You can find the text and a link to the chat at http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1203.html

The direct link to the chat is: http://www.johnkerry.com/chat/index.html
The chat room will open shortly before 3 PM EST.