What do you think people will care more about? What Dean did at age 21...

[killbotfactory]

Or the 21 years Dean spent serving the community and improving the lives of other people as a Doctor and a Governer?

Does getting a medical deferment from a morally dubious war he didn't like outwiegh all the children he insured? Or the sound fiscal future he gave Vermont through balanced budgets? Or the hundreds of people he helped directly as a doctor? Or the number of children he helped with success by six? Or preserving land? Or cutting VT emissions?

Are the majority American's really that stupid to let his medical deferment he got as a young man affect their vote?

[neuvocat]

1. Its not like he snorted coke at age 30

or some other "youthful indescretion".

[killbotfactory]

2. Or got caught drunk driving.

Or failed at pretty much everything he tried and getting through life based on connections and his name, instead of merit.

[neuvocat]

19. Or killed someone with their car.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. That would've put him in a "Pickle."

[neuvocat]

69. How Punny.

[HereSince1628]

3. Some couldn't for someone who never owned a baseball team

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Dean did nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be proud of.

However it would blunt the AWOL attack ads if there are 'malingerer' attack ads in response.

Not attacking Bush was one of Gore's many mistakes...

[rucky]

5. I'd love to see AWOL try and make it an issue n/t

[killbotfactory]

7. They'll use everything against the dem nominee

No matter how ironic, stupid, untrue.

We have to be prepared to counter them.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

8. He tried to get out

And he won't admit it, that's the part that bothers me. Didn't this come up in the debate, I don't remember. But at some point this week it came up and he said, again, that he went and got his physical and they rejected him. That's just not true. He intentionally got a letter from his doctor, took it to the draft board early, and tried to get out of Vietnam. He needs to tell the truth about it.

And my problem with him about it all is that he skied through the sixties. Every other candidate was involved in some sort of activist movement or serving this country in some way. Howard skied.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. ssshhhh!!!

Stop confusing us with facts, you Dean-basher, you!

[Demobrat]

12. As long as we're sticking to the facts

Howard skied for a year, not "through the sixties".

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

22. It was true

Just because you don't know about all of the candidates doesn't mean other people haven't taken the time to find out in order to make a reasoned choice based on all the facts.

[DemBones DemBones]

77. Did he give it up after that?

You're correct that his intensive skiing period was that year (actually 10 months, I believe he's said) after Yale.

But I'd assume it's also correct to say that he skied throughout the sixties, since he obviously liked it.

[helleborient]

11. Ummm...John Edwards was 16 in 1969...

Do you have information about his service to his country from age 7 to 16?

I found no evidence Dick Gephardt was serving his country either.

Was Joe Lieberman?

Big sweeping generalization here with no purpose other than an unsupported attack on Howard Dean.

[sandnsea]

20. It's not a sweeping generalization

Edwards worked his butt off in college, which any working class person knows is because he knew he'd be off to Vietnam otherwise. And he is younger than the rest anyway.

Gephardt actually did his service in the National Guard, and again, worked his butt off in college like anybody from a working family did.

Lieberman was actively involved in Freedom Rides and the civil rights movement.

Those who were of an age to be of service did something in the 60's, except Howard Dean.

[w4rma]

28. Dean made it through medical school during that period of time.

There is no tougher educational curriculum than medical school and very few people have the brains and discipline to do it.

[sandnsea]

45. Entered med school - 1978

He started Yale in 1967. He was the only one of our candidates who was of an age in the 60's to be politically involved who wasn't. Well, except for requesting a black roommate. What sacrifice, what commitment, what moral courage, truly dedicated to fighting for civil rights. This guy is such a sad case.

[AP]

124. I think when Edwards accused Dean of treating the southern poor white

person like he was engaging in some kind of anthropological experiment, you could apply that analysis to Dean's roommate selection process too.

[Andromeda]

38. Dean worked his butt off going to medical school...

do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a doctor? My daughter was a pre-med student and the test alone (MCAT)is so difficult most people don't pass it on the first try---and it's expensive.

After you pass the test you have to get accepted to a medical school and that isn't easy. You get more letters of rejection than acceptance. If you are fortunate enough to be accepted you have years of hard work ahead of you before you can practice medicine.

Before you go spouting off because you don't like Dean at least get your facts straight.

[DemBones DemBones]

79. The main reason people get rejection letters

from med schools is that they apply to several schools, including out-of-state schools. Most med schools take the majority of their students from the pool of in-state applicants, so applying to out-of-state schools is a real gamble, unless an applicant has very good qualifications. People who don't get accepted to their home state med school(s) the first time generally get in the next year, assuming they have a decent undergrad GPA and decent MCAT numbers, and are able to perform well in the very important personal interview.

You have to be fairly smart and good at memorizing lots of information to do well in the "pre-med" courses, on the MCAT, and in med school. You don't have to be a genius, however, and the difficulties of 1) getting in med school, and 2) getting through med school, are often exaggerated. According to an article I read, Dean made a very good impression on the admissions director. Perhaps his father threw in a bit of extra money to help the school and ensured Howard's acceptance, who knows?

A couple of people I went to college with (fellow bio/ chem majors) told me that their opinion was that med school was easier than college since "C=M.D." (no more killing themselves to get all A's) and they already knew a good bit of what was covered. And you know what you call the guy who graduates last in his med school class? Doctor.

If Dean had been a stellar medical student and graduated first, or tenth, or even twentieth in his med school class, don't you think it would be publicized by his campaign?

[AP]

98. I used to caddy at a country club for doctors. My favorites were the sons

of doctors. I'm talking about you Dr Woodford, if you're out there. Don't pick up Dr Woodford Srs bag from the locker room if it's Dr Woodford Jr who's there in the middle of the weekday. However, it was easy not to make thet mistake because Dr Woodford Jr, although farther from retirement, was the one who played golf 6 times a week.

When I caddied for him, I thought, I guess somebody had to graduate last in their class. I think he was a GP. His father was a surgeon.

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. So tutoring poor black kids in the city is nothing?

Dean could have found the cure to cancer at the time and you'd still bitch about him. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

88. And quit

"He taught 8th-grade social studies at a junior high school in New Haven. That proved a disappointment.

'I was overwhelmed by the social problems of the kids, and I didn't see how I could put those kids back together again,' Dean said."

What a guy.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0311120088nov12,1,5389742.story?coll=chi-leisure-hed

[KaraokeKarlton]

95. to become a doctor and save lives

yeah, that's just horrible of him to do so little to help humanity. :eyes:

[AP]

97. In a debate recently he said teaching was "too hard" so he went skiing.

Let's make a list of presidents. On one side we'll put all the presidents who quit something because it was too hard. On the other we'll put all the presidents who tried things that were hard and rose to the challenge.

[KaraokeKarlton]

121. I've seen all the debates and I never heard him say any such thing

transcript please.

[AP]

122. Show me the transcripts of thet last two debates.

I believe it was the Boston debate. I think a teacher asked him a question, and that was his answer (not the skiing part -- that part was implied).

[AP]

123. Here it is:

COOPER: Changing the subject a little bit, Governor Dean, I know you took a year off after college, spent a little time skiing. Is that something you would recommend for college graduates?

DEAN: When I was 20 years old, I was a junior in a college in New Haven, Connecticut. And I was totally turned off politics. I thought that the President of the United States was a crook, which turned out to be right. It was Richard Nixon.

(LAUGHTER)

And I thought that the Vietnam war was a mistake. And I had no idea I was going to end up in public service. I was teaching school in the inner city middle school, which was -- I also learned at that time that teaching was one of the hardest professions in the world, because you're required...

(APPLAUSE)

... because it requires you not only to connect with kids -- I usually had a card game going on in the back of the room, which shows you how effective I was -- you also have to stand for five hours without going to the bathroom, which may be good training for president.

He wasn't even a full time teacher, right? He just volunteered during the school year, right? (I could be wrong.)

Basically, he's answering the question "why'd you go skiing" with "I had a job that was too hard." And he wants to be president?

[JohnKleeb]

29. Have Gephardt supporters being attacking him for not serving?

They are hard to come and actually Gep is a vet.

[killbotfactory]

15. He was in school in the 60's.

A ski-bum for a year in the 70's.
A doctor in the 80's.
A Governer in the 90's.

And soon he'll be president.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. you skipped the Wall Street broker stint

which was well more than a year.

[slinkerwink]

24. The death of his brother, Charlie, made Howard give up being a stockbroker

and he went into medical school soon afterwards? That kind of story is what Americans love.

[sandnsea]

46. 4 years later?

oh please.

[Scott Lee]

40. Good on him! I would have, also.

That's a reason to praise Dean, not smite him.

[sandnsea]

47. He's lying about it

I don't care that he tried to get out, I care that he's lying about it today. And I care that he didn't want to go but didn't do anything to protest the war either. He took no stand whatsoever, he went skiing.

[Scott Lee]

59. What's he lying about? Can you prove it, or is this just more slime?

My guess is the latter.

[Andromeda]

94. Dean is a success...

that's what pisses you off more than anything else. He worked hard and succeeded in what he set out to do. Not too many people can say that and I suspect a few people on this board (not mentioning any names but I think you know who you are) are jealous of Dean's success and would like to see him fail because of their irrational hatred of him.

You are apoplectic because the candidate you support is not in the lead. Whining about Dean isn't helping your candidate in the least. The more you snivel, moan and call Dean names the higher he goes in the polls. Nobody has inspired the masses as well as Dean.

Dean is the most dynamic candidate and the most organized. He is an admitted centrist with a strong message that is resonating to the all the voters and this includes some Republicans who are disillusioned with Bush. Some people sitting on the fence are swayed by Dean and some people who have never voted before are now inspired to go to the polls and vote for Dean.

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't want to go into the military. The fact is that he took the physical and they rejected him. Maybe he was glad he got out of it---so what? Nobody wanted to go and he was just honest about it when he admitted that he didn't. He went on with his life and that's what any normal person would do. He didn't go AWOL. He didn't fake any kind of injury or get an educational deferment even though he could have. He didn't lie; he was up front about everything.

The fact that he didn't serve doesn't seem to make any difference in Dean's popularity. He's still drawing crowds and raising more money than any of the other candidates.

[AP]

96. "jealous," "irrational hatred," "apoplectic," "whining," "snivel,"...

I read every post with an open mind. I saw the thesis of yours, "Dean is a success," and I was looking forward to hearing what you had to say. However, as I read those words I quoted, your opinion quickly discounted itself.

Anyone who tries to personalize this argument -- who thinks it's about a personality conflict -- is so far off base. And just that you have to resort to that kind of argument, rather than give us an argument about why Dean is a success, shows that, hmmm, maybe Dean isn't all that much of a success.

[Scott Lee]

99. So the democratic frontrunner is "not that much of a success", hm?

I feel like I'm walking up to a giant caterpillar huffing on a hookah pipe. What a weird world, this planet of DeanHate.

[AP]

116. He's up there with Back Street Boys and The Hilton Sisters.

Often, when the media makes you a star, it isn't becuase you've done anything significant to deserve it.

[Scott Lee]

125. And how many consecutive terms as governor have the others?

Take your time.

[AP]

10. A lot of people who went to Vietnam never had the chance to reinvent....

....themselves, as Dean did, four or five times in his life. A lot of people will look at what he did after not going to Vietnam as nice, but not an option that many had, just as getting a deferment wasn't an option.

[killbotfactory]

13. He had that option and used it

And then led a productive life and helped many people.

I don't see any shame in that.

[AP]

16. He has reinvented himself several times in his life.

He thought he'd teach in the inner city but he said that was "too hard." (I was shocked when I heard him say that -- that's what we need in a president, eh? A guy who backs down from a challenge.) So he reinvented himself as a concrete layer and ski bum. Then he reinvented himself as a Wall St broker. (How many people make that leap?) Then as a med student. Then as a Vermoter. Then as a poltician. And now as a liberal Democrat.

Lots of people went to Vietnam and got to come back and reinvent themselves as unemployed manic depressives.

It isn't so much the avoiding service part. If he had been a poor kid and got out the way he did, I don't think it would hurt. It's the appearance that no choice this guy ever made, no matter how much of a mistake or lazy or crazy or dramatic it was, he always landed on his feet without having to be the best, or working especially hard to do it.

[killbotfactory]

17. That's nonsense.

Getting through medical school while holding a job is not easy. You can't just coast through it without trying. Same with being a successful governer.

[AP]

25. That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, how many people have the OPTION of reinventing themselves as oftenn as Dean has.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

26. I'm pretty average

but I've 'reinvented' myself, as most people do, during my life. I've been a child care worker, card dealer, games manager, and now a teacher, and I'm only 33 years old. I'm quite sure that I'll take on at least one new career before I retire. How many people do you know have had one profession their entire life? I can think of 2 that I know personally. And they didn't 'reinvent' themselves because they didn't have the chance, they just had found the career they loved the first time they tried.

I don't quite understand your point...who doesn't have the option to reevaluate one's life and decide you're not doing what you truly want to do? Most 'average' people enjoy that freedom.

[AP]

30. Did you reinvent yourself out of desperation, or just becuase you could?

And how many people have the sort of options that Dean has had in his life?

People who don't have the money or the family safety net can't take the sort of chances Dean took.

I suspect Dean's father helped him get that job on Wall St. How many people have that kind of opportunity?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

31. So you don't like Dean

because he was 'priviliged'? He's less of a person because he didn't have to worry about finances? Does that mean that John Edwards' kids will grow up to be less worthy of respect because their daddy provided for their needs? For that matter, anyone with money isn't as worthy as people who have financial difficulties?

Your dislike of Dean is clouding your sense of reality.

[AP]

39. This isn't about so much as it is about Dean and the perception

a vast majority of the public will have.

If you don't believe me about this, read the introduction to Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillips. Incidentally, he wrote the book that many say Clinton's 92 campaign was successfully organized around, so I wouldn't dismiss his theories about class and the current mood in America out of hand.

By the way, John Edwards's kids look like they grew up to be pretty decent (did you read Four Trials?).

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

48. The vast majority..

...won't be able to connect with someone who changed professions and did lots of different stuff before he got into politics? I'm really not understanding your point. Dean obviously connects with many, many 'average' people, as can be seen in his supporters. He's reached minorities, the young voters, seniors, middle class. The facts are not with you on this.


at www.blogforamerica.com

Featured Sites:
African Americans for Dean
Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders for Dean
Blacks for Dean
Expats for Dean
Latinos for Dean
Project Deanlight
Republicans for Dean
Seniors for Dean
Small Business for Dean
Veterans for Dean Blog

That's just a small sample of his support.

[AP]

49. My point is that Dean has lived a life that isn't available to many

americans because they didn't have the options and privileges he had.

Nobody talks about it much now, but if he gets nominated, what will happen will not be unlike when Gore was portrayed as a wealthy kid who grew up in a hotel and was a C student at Harvard, and tried law school for a little bit, and then tried divinity school, and tried being a journalist. Trying different things until you're finally able to carve out a better life, driven by a combination of ambition and desperation is one thing. Flitting around becuase you're a rich kid and the pressing need to get a job isn't something you know about is quite another.

I bet Gore had longer list of supporters. But when it came down to spinning images, it wasn't so hard to undermine the polulist identity. Dean's is going to be even easier to undermine, no matter how far up he rolls his sleeves.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

51. Your argument was flawed

You claimed that his changing careers and doing various things means he is priviliged, but it's not something only priviliged people can (and do) do. You can argue he had a priviliged life...certainly his family weren't wanting for money, but claiming that life allowed him to change careers is just silly.

And to be honest, I (and obviously many others who support him) see him as pretty 'normal'. He comes across much differently than what would be expected of someone 'priviliged.' He's quite down to earth, as is his wife, and doesn't come across as polished and slick, as say, Kerry.

I got the same impression of him when I met him...down to earth and easy to talk to.

[sandnsea]

52. Have you met Kerry?

Everybody I know who has met Teresa and John say they're very down to earth people. And when they find out they're meeting one of their bloggers, they always respond with a big hug and usually know the regulars quite well. They're genuine down-to-earth people.

And no, people who take out student loans to get a degree in business generally can't just up and decide to be a doctor.

[AP]

54. And people who took out loans to get an MD just can't up and decide to

go into politics.

[Scott Lee]

82. Why not?

Is that in the "rule book" somewhere?

[AP]

93. Yeah. It's in the fine print rules on your student loans. Don't pay. Go...

...into default...get bad credit rating...tripple the cost of your mortgage...etc. etc. etc.

[Scott Lee]

64. Have you met Dean and his wife?

Game set match.

[sandnsea]

71. They're both nice?

That's not a win, that's 15 all.

[Scott Lee]

81. I'm asking you. You seem have 1st hand knowledge of the Deans

So tell us, have you met them?

[sandnsea]

90. Please be rational

I posted in response to this:

"He's quite down to earth, as is his wife, and doesn't come across as polished and slick, as say, Kerry."

I never said anything bad about Dean's family. All I said is that everybody I've talked to who has met Kerry has said he and his wife are both very down to earth and engaging. Dean is down to earth is just not reason to support him because the other candidates are too. The whole slick, aloof thing is just crap that has been used by Kerry's opponents in the past and is being drug into this campaign by Dean. I don't even know what your point is.

[Scott Lee]

100. Rational question: Why were you impugning the Deans as a couple?

In post #51 you brought up the virtues of the KerryS (as a couple), how warm and down to earth they are. I was not under the impression that Kerry's wife was his running mate. I thought John Kerry was running for president. Is this still correct?

Since you brought the couple equation into the mix, are you insinuating that the Deans are not a "nice, warm down to earth couple"? If so, post your evidence. If not, why did you bring the Kerry's up as a couple to begin with?

Awaiting a "rational" response.

[sandnsea]

104. Those are your thoughts

If that's what you think, that shows your pettiness, not mine. I responded to a post about the Dean's as a couple with a post about the Kerry's as a couple. That's it, that's all. You're turning it into something it isn't.

[Scott Lee]

109. Don't you have the courage to stand behind your insinuations?

I am shocked. Shocked I say!

[AP]

53. John Edwards took a risk by not going into his family's business, "hard...

labor" in a factory.

And to be able to have that opportunity, he had to work his ass off and be the best at everything he did.

Look at a guy like Bush. He never had to work his ass off. Not to get into Yale. Not to get Harvard MBA. Not to get his first job, or his second job, or his third job. It has always been handed to him because of who his father is.

Now, what about Dean? Which end of that spectrum is he colser too? People say his father only gave 25,000 when he graduated from college, and that's all he ever got.

Well, that's like 125K in today's money, and I'm going to guess that if that was his graduation present, he probably got fat checks on his birthday, christmas, as a wedding present, and on his anniversary. Maybe not, but odds are yes. I'm also going to guess that, like most rich people, when his father died he left half his estate to his wife, and the other half to his kids. And I'm going to guess that the money he has received over his lifetime, and the knowledge of his impending inheritance has relieved him of some of the financial anxieties which might influence the way most people make their life decisions.

I'm als going to guess that Dean's father, and the other set of privilleges Dean inherited were a big reason he was able to make the jump from concrete pourer to investment broker. That's a jump you don't see very often in either direction, and I've never seen any claim that Dean had great grades in college, or did any of the other things Yale graudates have to do today to get jobs on Wall Street.

Should I go on? I can, if you want me to.

I know that many of Dean's supporters desperately want to see him as normal, and I know that he's done a few things in his life which help him make that argument, like the idea that he took the pre-med classes at night, without his father knowing it, and that he left Wall St to go into a profession which is basically, self-employment and small business ownership. (But even this last one is mitigated by the fact that, once elected, he brought some of his Wall St cronies back to VT to help him govern, and he did in fact govern with Wall St's interests in the forefront).

But, I think a lot of people like you thought that Gore was pretty normal too. I think Bush had a pretty easy time of making Gore sound like the privileged guy, and making Bush seem like the guy with humble roots (you've seen pictures of Bush's Midland, TX boyhood home, and you've heard about the public schools he attended befor he want to Andover, right?). Well the Republicans are going to have an even EASIER time of making Dean look like a bigger blue blood than Bush when they're done with him (if he gets nominated) notwithstanding how you feel about him and his rolled-up sleeves and his frugality today.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

57. Your opinion differs greatly from mine

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know anyone who is "trying desperately to see him as normal." He came across that way, which is one of the reasons I initially liked him. If I was desperately seeking to find someone running as 'normal', I'd have stayed with Edwards, the first candidate I started seriously looking at.

I never found Gore 'normal', either. I liked him ok, but honestly was relieved when he decided not to run.

I can see the draw to Edwards, having had to struggle for what he has. But to assume anyone who had money didn't work for what they have is just silly.

[AP]

70. Ultimately, perception will be way more important than the truth.

Nonetheless, I feel that what you see with Edwards is the truth, whereas, Dean is trying desperately hard to hide the truth of his privileged upbringing. And even if I'm wrong, like I said, it's going to be easier for Rove to smear Dean as the out of touch privileged guy than it was to smear Gore.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

76. Sure, if that's the way he wants to play it

Rove will find the weaknesses in whoever the nominee is. Don't be fooled into thinking that Edwards has less ammo than Dean, just because we've seen Dean get scrutinized under a microscope. If Edwards were the frontrunner, he'd be dragged through the mud just as badly as they are trying to do to Dean. You are naive and hiding your head in the sand if you think Rove will have a harder time hurting Edwards than Dean, when Dean has an enormous base of activists, a little campaign army if you will, to thwart spin and get the truth out. That's something that no other candidate has to offer the Democratic Party.

I like Edwards...well I liked him a lot more before the last 2 debates which he blew. He'd be a fine canidate, but he's certainly not the strongest to go against Bush. I have heard too many comments by him that show that even though his heart is in the right place, he's too naive to become president at this time. Perhaps in a few more years he'll be seasoned enough.

[AP]

80. Of course the Republicans will target a candidate's weakness

The unfortunate thing about Dean is that his weaknesses are the same as Bush, and they happen to be weaknesses that, if they were strengths, would hurt Bush.

I think Edwards's weaknesses are actually strengths when you put them next to Bush (to wit, "experience in DC").

[Scott Lee]

63. So you're telling us you never made an "effort vs. benefits" decision?

Incredible!

You never decided, at some point in your life, to abandon a goal or project because, on examination, the bad outweighed the good?

What a privileged existence you must lead.

[AP]

74. And you've never had to forego a chance at something becuase the

downside was to steep if you failed, and you couldn't reasonably take the risk?

Some people have more options and opportunities with lower risks than other people, and Dean and Bush are very good examples of that.

A person like Edwards isn't. His college major was textiles because working in the mills was his fallback if law school failed.

As for Dean, what his major? Was it relevant to any career he had in the first 40 years of his life? He quite obviously had plenty of opportunities to correct previous misdirections in his life without have to accept any level of risk.

I don't care if you don't get it, and I don't care that you think that I don't get it. But I think that if you DIDN"T think this was going to be a problem for a lot of voters, you wouldn't be spending so much time trying to talk your candidate out of the corner you know he's in on this issue.

[Scott Lee]

83. Did Bill Clinton pursue, or receive, a degree in Presidential Politics?

He didn't? My GOD what a spoiled little whim-driven man!

[AP]

91. There is no degree for elected politicians. However, Clinton had a...

...committment to social and economic justice and to politics from a very young age, and he never wavered from it. He never went skiing for a year. He didn't flounder around trying to figure what he was going to do with his life. Why? Becaus his family wasn't going ot bail him out if he made a wrong move? I don't know why. But I definitely like my leaders to have that kind of focus, dedication, track record of accomplishment, etc.

[Scott Lee]

110. No commitment from Dean? How long was he governor, again?

Follow up question: How long was Clinton governor? How many terms was he elected as governor in Arkansas?

Compare and contrast with Dean governorship of Vermont, and continue to leer down at Dean's commitment to "social and economic justice and politics". I haven't had a huge laugh yet tonight.

[AP]

117. Maybe I've missed something. What IS Dean's record on

social and economic justice?

What did he do as Governor that reflected any concern greater than making sure Wall St liked him and would give him a good bond raiting?

Clinton broke Stephens, Inc's private monopoloy on issuing bonds, which made Wall St mad as hell, but ended up saving the state millions of dollars which had been going right into the pockets of Stephens, Inc partners.

In the course of doing that, he ensured that more tax money would be spent on things that actually returned its investment by making average Arkansans wealthier, happier, and healthier.

[Scott Lee]

126. So Dean's efforts for health care in Vt were just selfish I suppose?

Or maybe they were on orders of the Tau Ceti UFO overlords.

It's a coin toss here, isn't it!

[AP]

133. Dean on Health Care reminds me of Gore on environment

It's like a singature policy meant to make it appear like you have liberal bona fides, to cover up a lot of other stuff you do that Wall St really likes.

And I'm not sure I really understand Dean on health care. I've heard some say that it still guarantees a lot of money flowing into the health care industry. But I'm not sure what the real deal is. Can you explain?

[DemBones DemBones]

78. I don't think he had a job while he was in med school. n/t

[Scott Lee]

41. You say that like it's a bad thing.

You know what they call people who refuse to learn, change and reinvent themselves?

"Conservatives".

[AP]

44. You know what the call people who can reinvent themself on a whim, or ....

...because what they're doing is too hard or boring or not giving them enough prestige without taking any real risks? "Privileged."

Recently I heard Dean tell a teacher that during college he worked in an inner city school, but decided he couldn't do that with his life becuase it was too hard. Instead, he went to Aspen. He was trying to brown nose the teacher. However, lots of people are teachers becuase they're trying to put food on the table. I bet there was never a moment in Dean's life when he thought, "hmm, if this chance I'm taking doesn't work out, I might starve."

[Scott Lee]

60. You know what they call people who mindread people's intentions?

Liars or character assassins.

Any questions?

[AP]

75. Again, this isn't about you or about me or even about reality. It's about

the symbolism.

Again, remember what Bush did to Gore on this same issue? Well it's going to be easier vs Dean.

[Scott Lee]

84. This is about nothing but your baseless hatred of Howard Dean

And to tell you the truth, whether he chose to pursue one career or another is going to mean squat to 95% of the electorate.

I'd be willing to put money on that.

[AP]

92. "baseless" and "hatred" -- two words which reveal either that you have

no understanding of what I'm talking about, or that you have a clear understanding of what I'm talking about and you have absolutely no counterargument at all for it.

Have you read Wealth & Democracy by Kevin Phillips?

Just read the introduction, and get back to me.

[Scott Lee]

101. "Neener Neener" won't help you here.

You and the rest of ADJHS post nothing but lies, filth, spin or folktales about Howard Dean. Do you know what that says about your natures and the hopes of your candidate(s)?

I think you know what it says.

[AP]

106. Would that it were "neener neener" that I wrote.

But it wasn't. And you know it.

[Scott Lee]

111. But that's what you meant. Can't you stand behind your insinuations?

But of course not. It's not in the antiDean handbook.

[AP]

118. What I meant was a lot better argued than that.

But let's not lie to ourselves, Scott. You only characterize it as "neener neener" because you KNOW it's better argued than that.

The "neener neender" characterization is the last refuge of a person with a counter-argument.

[Scott Lee]

127. So are you backing up on insinuating the Deans arent nice folks?

Fair enough.

[AP]

134. I don't know that I was going forward with that "insinuation"

Care to give me a post number so that I can respond to your accusation.

[sandnsea]

21. Then he should tell the truth

Why doesn't he admit it? Why does he pretend he had nothing to do with him getting out of Vietnam? That's something working people either don't know they can do or just DON'T do. He knows that or he'd be up front about it.

[Scott Lee]

43. Where has he lied? Proof, please.

Here we go again. I see 12,346,899 posts about his draft episode isn't enough for you.

Ho hum. Post your proof that Dean "lied" or drop the subject.

[sandnsea]

50. He lied

"I didn't try to get out of the draft," Dean has said. "I had a physical."

"The United States government said this is your classification," he said on NBC's Meet the Press. "I'm not responsible for that. I didn't have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice."
NBC Meet the Press
http://www.vietnamwar.com/HowardDeandraftdeferment.htm August

"I was not anxious to serve in Vietnam," said Dean, whose brother, Charles, died under mysterious circumstances in Laos during the Vietnam War. "I was opposed to the war and I was glad I was classified that way, but it was obviously not my decision."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031025/D7UDBJUG0.html October

"I was a young man with an unfused vertebrae in my back that had been diagnosed during high school. At the time of my military physical, I presented army doctors with x-rays and a letter from my physician explaining the condition. On that basis, the army determined I was ineligible to serve, classifying me as 1-Y. This injury didn't keep me from leading a normal life, but it did prevent me from serving in the Army. Like many Americans at that time, I was opposed to the war. However, while I did oppose the war, I fulfilled my obligation and I told the truth."
http://www.valuejudgment.org/archives/000307.html November

He DID try to get out of the draft, he lied about it. He lies about almost everything.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

61. Your definition of "tried to get out of the draft" might differ from Dean'

Did that thought ever cross your mind? I've seen right here on DU a great confusion between draft dodging, draft avoidance and draft resistance.

Dean did nothing illegal or immoral in presenting the facts to a draft board visit he was required to do, and did. You have not proven in any way that he "lied" about it. You have only shown that your definition of draft dodging differs from his.

Care to try again?

[sandnsea]

68. He lied this year

He lied when he said he just showed up and the military rejected him. He lied when he suggested he was willing to go.

He wasn't. He went out of his way to get out of Vietnam, he didn't want to go, he wasn't willing to go. He should have told the truth about it.

[Scott Lee]

85. You are, in fact, lying about him.

Howard Dean DID show up to his draft board. The military DID reject him. And guess what? Those medical records you and the rest of ADJHS condemn him for bringing to his draft board were required by the military. Ouch!


He was willing to go. Can you point to any Dean statement where he said he had no intention of going to 'Nam if drafted? Of course you can't. AntiDean Spin 101.

Did he say he did not desire to be drafted and go to 'Nam? Yes! As I would have and millions of others (rightly) would have.

Howard Dean told the truth. You do not.

[sandnsea]

87. Facts are facts

He didn't just show up at the draft board, willing to serve, (with or without medical records in hand) and get rejected. That's how he tried to paint the picture and it's a lie.

He didn't want to serve, he wasn't willing to serve. He got his doctor to write a very specific letter about his back. He made an appointment, outside of the routine physicals. He went out of his way to do whatever he could to get out of serving. He avoided the draft. That's fine, no big deal.

But that's not the story he told when first asked about Vietnam. He wasn't forthcoming and there's just no way anybody can pretend he was.

[Scott Lee]

102. FACT: Howard Dean never dodged a draft. EVER.

Not wanting to serve and dodging/resisting a draft are completely different things.

Howard Dean answered the call to his draft board.

Howard Dean complied with Military rules that require all draft candidates to bring any and all medical records that may recuse them from service.

The draft board gave Howard Dean a 1Y deferrment based upon the records that the military itself require Dean to furnish.

Howard Dean never dodged a draft.

Game, set, match.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. As with many of your posts when you claim a "lie" has occured

your evidence refutes it.

Point out the "lie" in any of your three links. They look consistent to me.

Reporting to the draft board is an odd way of dodging the draft. Are you saying that the x-rays weren't his? Where's the "lie?"


P.S. Vietnam was a bullshit war that only served the interests of the MIC. Why do you consider it a litmus test?

[sandnsea]

67. He didn't just report

That's what he tried to say he did before the rest of the information came out. He just reported, took his physical and they rejected him.

That is NOT what happened. He tried to get out of Vietnam by taking in his own medical records. He didn't want to go. He didn't want to serve. I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with him giving the impression that he was willing to go but just happened to get a medical disqualification. It's just not true. He TRIED to get out of it. He should have said so.

[Scott Lee]

86. Lie.

He DID report, and he DID bring the medical records that the US military required him to bring:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:VsZ8Z2k5eAcJ:www.wramc.amedd.army.mil/gmserv/preclinic_conferences/tmac/PhysicalExams.doc+military+physicals&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Care to try again?

[sandnsea]

89. Not what he said

"He said the condition, which caused him pain when he ran long distances, surfaced when he was on the track team at St. George's. It showed up on an X-ray taken at his draft physical and earned him a 1Y deferment, which kept him from being drafted except in times of national emergency."

Why'd he say this if it wasn't true? The lie is THIS year, not whatever happened back in the 60's. He lied.

http://marinfordean.org/article_text.asp?articleid=211

[Scott Lee]

103. Where's the lie? There isnt one!

[sandnsea]

105. No, not St. Howard

The article right there is the impression Howard wanted to leave about his physical. That he just showed up at the draft board, the military found the back condition, and he was rejected. Why else would this reporter say that???

He's a liar, he's as big a liar as Bush. He didn't show up ready to serve, he didn't respond like every other draftee. He took extra measures to avoid the draft. He got a letter from his doctor, which is MORE than just medical records, and made a special appointment outside the routine physical, and then he lied about it THIS year. He's a liar, liar, liar, liar, liar.

[AP]

107. And would you even get an x-ray of your back as part of

exam.?

So, had ne not taken the extra step of bringing the x-rays, would he have been drafted?

[sandnsea]

108. Well, I asked my hubber

He went in the army in 1973. Chest x-ray was routine.

If Howard hadn't brought his own medical records, he would have gone. Or, in other words, if he was a regular kid who got back pains running track and couldn't afford a doctor to do a bunch of tests, he would have gone.

[Scott Lee]

114. If Dean had not brought those records, he would have breached law

Are you suggesting that he break the law?

Goodness, why?

[AP]

119. Care to cite the criminal code which says that "against the law"

What's the mens rea for that crime? Recklessness? What's the penalty? Is it a misdemeanor or a felony?

[Scott Lee]

128. Here is the military requirement for bringing such records to

a draft board review.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:VsZ8Z2k5eAcJ:www.wramc.amedd.army.mil/gmserv/preclinic_conferences/tmac/PhysicalExams.doc+military+physicals&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Now unless you contend that the military requires things it doesn't really mean, then I'll accept your surrender on this one.

[AP]

135. It's not a violation of the law unless there's some kind

of knowledge requirement and punishment.

The government gives people thousands of instructions all the time. Not all of them, if disobeyed, are punishable as criminal offenses.

As far as gymnastics goes, I'll give this spin a 9.3.

It's pretty cute. It's very clever. It'll probably fool a lot of people. Don't let me thinking its stupid stop you from using it.

[killbotfactory]

138. Why would he be eager to go into a war your candidate protested?

Was Kerry the jerk, or Dean for finding a legitimate excuse to avoid serving in an immoral war?

[Scott Lee]

113. Had Dean not brought those medical records to the board.....

He would have been afoul of the law.

Are you suggesting Dean should have broken the law?

[Scott Lee]

112. You just lied several times about Howard Dean again...

You say

The article right there is the impression Howard wanted to leave about his physical. That he just showed up at the draft board, the military found the back condition,

Lie.

The military didn't "find" any back condition. It was preexisting and known to doctors before there was a draft. As required by the military at the time, Howard Dean brought medical documents showing this was the case.

He's a liar, he's as big a liar as Bush.

An accusation you or any of the rest of ADJHS has yet to prove.

He didn't show up ready to serve, he didn't respond like every other draftee.

Lie.

He did show up in a timely fashion to his local draft board, like any other draftee was expected to.

Also, in accordance with military requirements, he brought any medical documentation that shows he may have a condition or conditions which MIGHT recuse him from service. He complied with this, as any draftee was expected to.

I might add that any draftee failing to bring such medical documents would be in breach of the law.

He took extra measures to avoid the draft. He got a letter from his doctor, which is MORE than just medical records, and made a special appointment outside the routine physical,

Lie.

Getting a doctor to personally confirm what medical records had already noted is not an extra measure. It is confirmation of an already detected condition. It would have been an "extra measure" if Dean had claimed yet another reason why he could not serve. Since he did not, you have been trapped once again in a lie.

and then he lied about it THIS year. He's a liar, liar, liar, liar, liar.

Lie.

Please post proof that Howard Dean "lied" about turning medical records over to his draft board this year.


Well, that's four lies in one post of yours, alone. I don't think even Bush could match that.

[AP]

120. When was the last time anyone was convicted for failing

to bring evidence of a medical problem to an induction physical (or whatever that was)?

[Scott Lee]

129. when was the last time someone was executed for treason?

Just because it hasn't happened recently doesn't mean it's magically no longer a crime.

[AP]

136. You think it's treason to not bring your medical records to

your draft board physical?

Really?

[sandnsea]

130. Somebody's on ignore

Is this the guy who called me 'cupcake'?

[Scott Lee]

132. did you say something, cupcake?

I thought you left me. Thank god you've come back.

[FrenchieCat]

23. None of those things will matter

as much as the fact that Dean has no national security or foreign policy experience. Adding that his tax increase proposal will scare 1/2 of the voters to death, and is a rich white guy from New England.......

Dean has bigger problems than whether he avoided the draft or whether he governed a state with a population smaller than San Francisco and a lot less diverse!.....



Do a reality check....please....my life hangs in the balance.....

[robbedvoter]

27. Not Aspen, not Biden Lugar, not flip-flops. But electability and

who can take us out of Iraq, keep us safe from terrorism - that will decide the next election. There are a lot of non-Democrats out there who don't want W anymore. The'd go with Clark, but not with Dean.

[Sully]

32. I agree with that

I also want to add that a candidate's character is ALWAYS an election and electability issue. According to most sociologists and psychologists, personality (and character) is well determined by the age of 21. I think Dean is Karl Rove's wedge candidate. Drive a one-issue wedge into the democratic party to split, dilute and encourage sniping to generate talking points for the General Election.

Dean does not have the experience, record or character to beat Bush and will not win the primary either. You Deanies are going to get a bucket of cold water poured on you when Kerry wins Iowa. Mark my words and watch this space on Jan. 20th. I'll be eager to hear your responses!

[RogueTrooper]

33. So what will John Kerry do

to combat all the bad press he is going to get when his forth quarter fundraising figures come out? By all accounts his not having much success dialing for dollars.

If he is going to win Iowa then he is going to have to do the one thing he has singularly failed to do in New Hampshire: beat Howard Dean.

[Sully]

34. If it's all about donations...

Let me see if I have this right:

Fundraising success = media attention
media attention = votes
votes = winning the nomination
::
Fundraising success = winning the nomination

Is that your premise?

Kerry is winning the battle on the ground in Iowa.

But wait till January 20th! We can revisit this subject then!

[Zynx]

36. Kerry will not sell in Iowa.

He is way behind Dean there, even further behind in NH, and pretty far behind in his HOME STATE.

[Sully]

37. We'll see in January.

Uh huh. I disagree but won't I be like, a superpundit if I turn out to be correct?

May the best man win!

(my apologies to Carol)

[Zynx]

35. He's losing in his home state. Kerry will not win a single state to Dean.

I don't care about his Vietnam service. I know plently of Vets without any character and Kerry is one of them. Fighting in a war doesn't make you a good person as Adolf Hitler so adequately proved. Kerry is a lying sack of crap politician who is snotty and arrogant. Experience is another misnomer. Sitting on a Senate comittee does not make you any better prepared to be president. James Buchanan probably had the world's longest record of experience and turned out to be our worst president ever.

[Demobrat]

55. You sure got that one right.

My scumbag Repuke ex-boss was a Marine and never lets anyone forget it. He's also a lying sack of shit who will tell you something to your face, deny it two hours later and laugh at you for believing him. Military service means zero, nada, zilch and I think one of Kerry's big mistakes was thinking that it does.

[Scott Lee]

42. Those who whine about a lack of Dean "substance" threads...

Appear to be the very ones who sustain the personal attacks against him, or tilt at virtually irrelevent issues surrounding him.

Oh, the irony!

[dogman]

58. No patriotism here!

It is true many avoided the draft on technicalities. We had a president with a documented back problem who went to serve his country and became a war hero. W also used technicalities to avoid service but i don't think he represents what is good in America. I believe this country needs someone who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes and is not afraid to say it. Once again we have been called to give to this nation and not just take what we want as individuals. I have found a leader who is ALL PATRIOT-NO ACT.

[Scott Lee]

62. The DeanHaterz got their script directly from the rightwingers

Just about every tactic I've seen them try to smear Dean with a "lie" has been pulled from the playbook of the wingnuts. Dissemblence, mindreading, spin, invention, fantasy, strawman, I've seen it all before a thousand times. All tactics used religiously by rightwingers.

[MrPeepers]

115. And where does everyone else get their scripts from?

The same place. That's what this primary has become, copy-paste from the RNC webpage.

Peepers

[Scott Lee]

131. Some of us don 't use scripts. We call it critical thought.

[DemDogs]

73. No, he was just a rich manipulator and coward (n/t)

[killbotfactory]

137. Maybe he didn't want to die in an immoral war?

Kerry was protesting it by then, maybe he was listening to him?

[Jack_Dawson]

139. It's not that *I* care...

It's that his ski trip makes Bush look like Wesley Clark. Please climb out of your collective naivete and think about why Tucker Carlson is creaming his jeans over a Dean nomination. Think strategically people.