To those who say "The actual Medicare bill vote didn't matter."

[MercutioATC]

Congressmen make their votes known well before the actual voting takes place. Therefore, it should have been apparent to anybody who could count that the Dems did not have the necessary votes to sustain the filibuster. With this in mind, how important WAS the filibuster vote, really?

It's equally true that the Dems should have known that they didn't have enough votes to defeat passage of the bill. It's no secret that there are some here that have used this as "proof" of the irrelevancy of Kerry's and Lieberman's decisions to not vote on the bill.

Questions:

1) How is it better to be able to say that you left the campaign trail to vote on a filibuster that you knew you'd lose but left again before the actual vote on the bill (that you knew you'd lose) came to the floor?

2) If you were the Dem candidate and defending yourself against Republicans, would you rather defend your vote on a delay tactic (filibuster) or your vote on the actual bill? Wouldn't it be kinda hard to defend the filibuster vote without having even voted against the bill?

3) Same situation as above. How do you attack the Repubs on Medicare issues? Wouldn't is be easy for them to say "If this is really an issue for you, why didn't you vote against the bill?"

In addition, I feel that every "nay" vote not cast was just a little more justification for the Republicans to claim that this bill enjoyed bipartisan support.

Care to show me where my logic's faulty?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. If it were all about posturing, your logic would be flawless.

But it's not. It's mostly about whether or not the bill gets passed.

[MercutioATC]

2. Understood, but wasn't the filibuster doomed, too?

Why miss a debate for one and not stay for the other?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Doomed?

The cloture vote failed, yes. At what point did you determine that the filibuster was 'doomed'? I certainly hoped it would succeed. I don't think Kerry and Kennedy, the leaders of the filibuster, thought it was doomed when they started it.

[dsc]

4. actualy they almost certainly did

They lost by 11 votes. Both of them are experienced Senators and vote counters. They had to know the filibuster was not going to happen given them being that many votes short.

[virtualobserver]

18. What I want to know....

Is why Kerry was unable to LEAD the democrats to victory.

[MercutioATC]

5. Why is it that everybody always seems to know the count ahead of time

but it was mysteriously different with this particular filibuster vote? Hell, Gephardt has made a carreer of explaining how his vote didn't matter because the counts were tallied days ahead of time. I don't see any reason to expect that this situation was any different. I believe that the count was known ahead of time (as it is with all of the other votes) and the Dems KNEW that they didn't have the votes to sustain the filibuster.

[sandnsea]

6. They should have voted

They were wrong not to.

But they were also right to try the fillibuster vote because there were alot of Reps that didn't like that bill because it's so expensive or because it doesn't privatize quick enough. And a fillibuster gets media attention whereas a vote doesn't. The logging bill got voted on Friday, I believe, nothing in the media. Lots of people just lost their overtime, next to nothing in the media. But people do know about this Medicare bill because of the fillibuster vote. It brought more attention to it, so I think that's a good thing.

[dsc]

7. I will give you that

though overtime will get attention. The filibuster was a good thing, doomed or not.

[sandnsea]

9. Bush won overtime

It was in the spending bill and Bush threatened a veto if the language that got passed a couple of months ago wasn't removed. This is a done deal, as far as I can see.

http://www.theadvertiser.com/business/html/E8DA9EEF-9871-4AAF-A485-C5EBD8B69624.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5095-2003Nov21.html

[MercutioATC]

8. You're absolutely right about the filibuster.

The vote was going to get minimal press. The filibuster was where the Dems got to make their statement to the voters. I still believe they knew the outcome beforehand, but the filibuster got the press' attention.

[Cocoa]

10. missed votes are a phony issue

if their votes would have counted, they would have been there.

Proof it's a phony issue? RNC Research dedicates a whole section of their website to it.h

[NewJerseyDem]

11. Not really

There have been times when their votes would have counted. For instance, Gephardt missed the vote on the Head Start bill which passed by one vote. While the republicans certainly could have gotten another congressman to switch their vote it would have forced a republican to vote in a way that could theoretically hurt them in the future.

In the Senate there have been amendments that would have passed if some presidential candidates had been in the Senate. While the medicare vote didn't change the outcome it is important that people know how much support for a bill there is.

They should be representing their constituents in Congress. It would be helpful for N. Carolina, Massachussetts, and Connecticut to have two senators lobbying for their states not just one.

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20031021/localnews/490309.html

One measure would have added $250 million for security efforts in cities particularly vulnerable to terrorism. The measure failed because the vote tied 48-48 with four senators not voting -- including Lieberman and John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina, two of his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Democrats in Congress have consistently accused the Bush administration of underfunding homeland security.

The second measure would have placed restrictions on the lobbying activities of department workers after they leave government service. The measure failed because the vote tied 46-46 with eight senators not voting -- including Lieberman, Kerry and Edwards.

[MercutioATC]

12. This typr of thinking is harmful. Not voting because you'd lose anyway

is NOT what the legislature is supposed to be about.

By your logic, there are very few things that actually need to be voted on. One party always has the majority. I'm not paying my Congressmen to vote only when they're certain they can win, I'm paying them to represent me.

I agree that, in a practical sense, thee are some votes that are unwinnable. This does not, however, excuse our elected representatives from doing their jobs.

[sandnsea]

13. It's a phony campaign issue

It's a legitimate issue if you're re-electing your own Senator or Representative. It's a legitimate issue if it's a lifelong habit. It's a phony issue if a candidate has missed unimportant votes because of running for President and another candidate uses it as a diversion from discussing real issues. That's what I think anyway.

But on this vote, they were there, they should have voted.

[genius]

14. Stop the spin. Kerry and Lieberman were among the heros on the Medicare

issue. They at least voted against cloture. Daschale and REid acted like cowards and voted for cloture. A "no" vote for a minority in the Senate , in the absense of a fillibuster is the same as a "yes" What they didn't do was stick around to vote "yes" with their fellow Democrats. Only 29 Senators really voted "no" and Kerry, Lieberman and Edwards were among these 29.

BTW, these Dean spin-lies are part of why so many Democrats hate Dean. Do you honestly think that, if Dean wins the nomination, Democrats will stop hating him in time to vote for him in the general election?

[MercutioATC]

15. I keep hearing the same accusations....but no answers.

I'm not spinning, I'm asking questions. I've heard the whole "The actual vote didn't matter" arguement, but I had a rebuttal. How is this a "Dean spin-lie"?

I've SAID that the filibuster was a good thing and praised those who supported it. My point is that only 2 senatord chose not to vote. I think that the vote was a logical follow-through to show their dissatisfaction with the legislation. I'm just curious as to why they didn't feel the same.

And yes, I think Dems will line up behind whomever is nominated. I happen to think some of the attacks on Dean, by Gephardt, especially, have been dishonest and they've cost Gep a lot of respect in my eyes. I'll still support him if he's the Democratic nominee.

[sandnsea]

16. They should have voted

For whatever reasons, they didn't. I suspect it was political and think it was stupid. But I really can't know that for a fact. But, it's no worse than Howard pressuring his senate to go with civil unions instead of gay marriage though. It's no worse than Howard writing letters encouraging Congress to pass Yucca Mtn. It's no worse than Howard humiliating the left in Vermont in order to build a concensus in the middle. It's no worse than Howard saying Congress has done nothing when SCHIP alone gave more children health care than Howard ever imagined. It's certainly no worse than Howard supporting Biden-Lugar and then claiming to be against the war from the start. Kerry on a mediocre day is better than Howard on his best day, especially a Howard that is willing to slash and burn the entire Democratic Party to further his campaign.

[dsc]

17. care to back either of the following up

"Dean pressured the Vermont Senate to do civil unions instread of gay marriage" I want a link which says the following. 1) The Vermont Senaate would have passed gay marriage and 2) Dean pressured them not to. And yes I will hound you and hound you until I get it.

"SCHIP alone gave health care" I want a link to just one state where that law alone insured a single kid. Alone means that the state involved passed no laws, enacted no regulations, and spent no money to either insure the kids or to oversee the insurance of the kids. And yes I will hound you and hound you until I get it.

[sandnsea]

19. Here

"Democratic Sen. Jeb Spaulding, a ranking official in the Vermont state Senate, is the most prominent legislative leader yet to advocate amending marriage statutes to allow gays and lesbians could marry."
http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=5022

"Democratic Governor Howard Dean supports creating the domestic partnership system, saying same-sex couples don't need a marriage certificate. Appearing on CNN yesterday, Dean said, "I actually think that domestic partnership protection is better than gay marriage."
http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=4976

And without SCHIP, there'd be no point for the states to do anything else because there wouldn't be federal funding to help. So it's very existence, ALONE, gave millions of children health care. Quit nitpicking. We're elected a President here, not an Administrator of Federal Programs and State Supreme Court Rulings.

[DemDogs]

20. The budget point of order came down to one vote or two

And the outcome was uncertain until the end.
Kerry and Lieberman (and Edwards who was there for all the votes and who I support, so don't go after me here) came for the filibuster vote and the budget point of order vote. The filibuster was a big loser, but the budget vote was close. Give em some credit.