Clark on depleted uranium: "there is no indication it causes any trouble"

[dajabr]

He can't really mean this? Can he?

http://www.progressive.org/webex03/wx1027b03.html

NPQ | So, this is a tempest in a teapot?

CLARK | I would never put it that way because an issue like this must be taken very seriously. But I am certain no new, unexamined correlation between DU weapons and health will be found.

All we have here are two sets of facts: First, 31,000 rounds of depleted uranium weapons were fired over a period of two months throughout an area 60 miles by 60 miles-almost 4,000 square miles. Second, some number of European soldiers are ill.
Somebody correlated these two. But there is no basis for this correlation scientifically, medically, statistically or experientially.

http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2001_spring/little_risk.html

Is The Pentagon Giving Our Soldiers Cancer?

by Hillary Johnson
Rolling Stone; October 2, 2003
U.S. military might relies on depleted uranium, which incinerates tanks on impact. But soldiers and civilians alike say the radioactive ammo is making them sick.


THE WEAPONS OF WAR ARE QUIETLY CHANGING. The U.S. military's deadliest ammunition is now packed with depleted uranium -- radioactive waste left over from nuclear bombs and reactors. These so-called "hot rounds" penetrate armored tanks like a needle pierces burlap, vaporizing steel in hell-fires of 5,000 degrees Celsius. Unlike tungsten, the armor-piercing metal used since World War II that "mushrooms" when it hits a target, depleted uranium actually sharpens itself like a pencil as it bores into tanks. Flaming radioactive particles shear off in every direction on impact, igniting fuel tanks and whatever explosives the target might be carrying. With virtually no public oversight, radioactive weapons have replaced conventional weapons as the cornerstone of American military might. Whenever U.S. troops go to war, depleted uranium supplies the shock and awe.

In the annals of warfare, there has been nothing like DU, as it is often shorthanded. In both Iraq wars, and in Afghanistan, the U.S. military used depleted uranium to inflict enormous harm on the enemy while incurring almost none itself. During the first Gulf War, in 1991, "tank-killing" DU rounds brought Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard to its knees in only four days. Military experts estimate that at least 10,000 Iraqis were killed, compared with 147 Americans. In the corridors of the Pentagon, DU munitions quickly earned the nickname "silver bullet", and the Defense Department turned its attention to creating even faster, more powerful weapons systems fueled by depleted uranium. "We want to be able to strike the target from farther away than we can be hit back, and we want the target to be destroyed when we shoot at it," Col. James Naughton told reporters at a Pentagon briefing last March. "We don't want to see rounds bouncing off. We don't want to fight even. We want to be ahead. And DU gives us that advantage."

Five days after the briefing, U.S. forces launched the second war on Iraq. This time around, however, DU projectiles were exploded not only in uninhabited deserts but in urban centers such as Baghdad -- a city the size of Detroit. Stabilized in steel casings called "sabots", the shells were fired from airships, gunships, Abrams tanks and Bradley troop carriers, striking targets 1.5 miles away in a fraction of a second. The weapons contained traces of plutonium and americium, which are far more radioactive than depleted uranium.

The Pentagon insists that the weapons pose no threat to U.S. soldiers or to non-combatants. "DU is not any more dangerous than dirt," declares Naughton, who recently retired after years as director of Army munitions. But a broad consortium of scientists, environmentalists, and human-rights activists -- as well as thousands of U.S. soldiers who served in the Gulf in 1991 -- cite mounting evidence that depleted uranium will cause death and suffering among civilians and soldiers alike long after the war's end. DU projectiles spew clouds of microscopic dust particles into the atmosphere when they collide with their targets. These particles, lofted far from the battlefield on the wind, will emit low-level radiation for 4.5 billion years -- the age of the solar system itself. Some doctors fear that long-term exposure to such radiation could eventually prove as deadly as a blast from a nuclear bomb -- causing lung and bone cancer, leukemia, and lymphoma (a cancer of the immune system known in medical circles as the "white death").

"This is a war crime beyond comprehension," says Helen Caldicott, a pediatrician who has campaigned against nuclear weapons for years. "This is creating radioactive battlefields for the end of time."

More: http://feedthefish.org/blog/materials/johnson.html

This is not encouraging if he holds this opinion. I have not seen this specifically discussed. (I've avoided the Clark "War Crimes" threads). If it has, please provide link to the thread(s). Thanks.

[slinkerwink]

1. oh, come on!

I can't believe he's ignoring the link between DU and the illnesses in our soldiers!!!

[dajabr]

4. It is puzzling...

Being retired, you would think he would not have to toe the Pentagon line on an issue like this. Unless it would have ramifications regarding accusations about his actions in Kosovo?

[KittyWampus]

17. Please Direct Me To The Page Where Dean Denounces The Use Of DU

Thanks, I look forward to your link....

[Rowdyboy]

2. Too late, too complex, too controversial..

I'll have an opinion in the morning ....

Good night

[dajabr]

3. OK, I'll check in...

to see your post after the Giants lose (again) in the afternoon.

[KittyWampus]

20. Well, I'll Just Post This Other Statement From Clark

NPQ | If the effects of depleted uranium have been so well
researched over the years, why the furor now in Europe?

CLARK | First of all, this was a long-term Serb propaganda
campaign started in the mid-1990s after the first NATO bombing
runs against the Serb forces in Bosnia. Since then, it has
ricocheted back and forth in the press. It has now picked up a
patina associated with European political dynamics vis a vis NATO.

To deflate this scare, those who want new testing on the subject
should do it in a comprehensive, scientific way and not on the
political stage.

My personal view is that, based on research already done, it is
highly unlikely that anything new will show up.


Clark also goes on to explain in the article that the bombs using DU do NOT explode forming a cloud or Uranium Oxide.
They work like a shotgun.

The American weapon is a machine-gun bullet. It is not designed
to explode but to penetrate a target. It bores a hole through
armor with so much energy, because it is so heavy, that it spews
inside the tank or armored personnel carrier all kinds of bits and
pieces of that armor in a "spalling" or shotgun effect.
But there is no cloud that extends 300 meters.

Most importantly in terms of the current controversy, no NATO
soldiers were on the ground when any targets were hit with
depleted uranium weapons. They were fired by aircraft thousands
of feet overhead. So the idea that the Italians or anybody else
could have been exposed using or being near these weapons
doesn't hold water. There is no possibility that the Italians or
anyone else could have been exposed to any "cloud."

I suppose what is possible is that, if every day the Serbs went out
and erected a decoy that was then hit with 50 rounds of DU
weapons every day, there could have been, over time, a high
concentration of DU in one spot because the decay rate is very
slow. But all that even depends on how the target was hit, and
how it and the weapon were dispersed. But that seems unlikely.

[TXvote]

61. US Major Doug Rokke is Serb propogandist?

I am sure General Clark has been the target of much indoctrination and propoganda during his career and fully udnerstands the profound effects a few determined people can have on issue image.
However, there are knowledgable and legitimate American military officers that attest to the dangers of DU exposure.
Seems to me that Gen. Clark is a thoughtful man and would benefit from being updated on the DU issue. He could start by reading this interview:

http://www.yesmagazine.org/25environmentandhealth/rokke.htm

Peace,
Teresa

[KittyWampus]

67. ALL Of Our Candidates Should Be Conversant Regarding DU

But to bring the issue up during a General Election- ESPECIALLY when the GOP is pushing National Security- would be nothing less than SUICIDE.

It's terrific to see this discussion going. But in terms of National Politics, at this point in time, bringing up DU can only benefit the GOP and the Green Party.

[TXvote]

68. Accountability = Political Suicide?

What you are saying is that if Clark, a military insider, steps up in public and says, the issue of Gulf War Syndromes I and II need to be addressed publically and with White House support if we are to continue saying we love our troops and mean it. That, essentially, this would somehow be helping the other parties?

Oh, yeah, America is unprepared for someone to be accountable. Voters would never be drawn to someone saying they can make everything better. If Clark had half the PR machine that BiffCo does, he would turn this issue around to prove how the current administration is endangering our troops. And if they dared to point fingers at Clinton/Gore or even Clark, he would accuse them of avoiding the issue becasue BiffCo should have done something by now.

I know you guys are hitting your stride a little late and Clark appears to be an educated man which leads to option overwhelm and the appearance of waffling when being thoughtful, but come on and kick this campaign into combat gear already with the spit and polish befitting you candidate. Please.

Peace,
Teresa
www.votervirgin.com

[KittyWampus]

74. No, DEMOCRATS Would Be Crazy To Take Up DU Issue

Clark included. That's a fact... and you must be niave to not understand that.

The United States Government would be held liable IF, and that's a big IF, DU is responsible for what it's detractors CLAIM it is.

[JohnKleeb]

5. whoa!

one word whoa.

[Zomby Woof]

6. what really bothers me

Is I see "DU" in the newspaper now, and automatically think of this place. I am hoping my LED screen will lower my cancer risk, being that I spend way too many hours on here.

*dons lead suit*

[Myra]

12. Um, same reaction to "DU"

Can we all please agree not to refer to depleted uranium
as "DU" lest it lead to misunderstandings and heart attacks?

All in favor say "aye."
I will now hold the 15 minute vote open for 3 hours
until I get the result I want, just like my heros
in congress.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Since the article you site with Clark

saying something is two sentences long, I will have to research if anymore was said, and when.

I also have to read the article from Oct 2003 titled "is the Pantagon giving our soldiers cancer?" 9 pages article which is a title written with a question mark in 2003.

I have bookmarked this thread, so that I may come back to you with my research.

[dajabr]

8. Thanks. He has more comments on the topic in the NPQ interview...

And it's a quick read.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Thanks,

I will read that too.

[dfong63]

9. so what does he have to say about agent orange, or gulf war syndrome?

[dajabr]

10. No hits on Google, but found this quote...

Which somehow does not sound quite so sincere to me at the moment...

"When I hear about how we're not giving our veterans their due and when I hear about how we're shortchanging our soldiers, I take it personally," Clark said in a speech prepared for an appearance Monday in Arizona.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/10/politics/main582792.shtml

[Mioshi]

13. Depleted Uranium

I Thought DU readers might like to know the facts about depleted uranium instead of the mythology. I work in occupational health and I know about depleted uranium. Attached is an editorial written by Helen Caldicott that was sent to me by friends last year who asked my opinion. I replied with my comments fully sourced interspersed throughout her article.

Helen Caldicott, October 6, 2002 (Editorial published in the Baltimore Sun)

NEW YORK -- As the Bush administration prepares to make war on the Iraqi people -- for it is the civilian population of that country and not Saddam Hussein who will bear the brunt of the hostilities -- it is important that we recall the medical sequences of the last Persian Gulf war. It was, in effect, a nuclear war.

(COMMENT: No, in effect, it wasn’t despite the best attempts of revisionist historians.)

By the end of that 1991 conflict, the United States left between 300 and 800 tons of depleted uranium 238 in anti-tank shells and other explosives on the battlefields of Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The term "depleted" refers to the removal of the fissionable element uranium 235 through a process that ironically is called "enrichment." What remains, uranium 238, is 1.7 times more dense than lead. When incorporated into an anti-tank shell and fired, it achieves great momentum, cutting through tank armor like a hot knife through butter.

What other properties does uranium 238 possess? First, it is pyrophoric. When it hits a tank at high speed, it bursts into flames, producing aerosolized particles less than 5 microns in diameter, making them easy to inhale into the terminal air passages of the lung.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (” In 2001 the UN Environment Program examined the effects of nine tones of DU munitions having been used in Kosovo, checking the sites targeted by it. UNEP found no widespread contamination, no sign of contamination in water or the food chain and no correlation with reported ill-health in NATO peacekeepers. Thus DU is clearly dangerous for people in vehicles which are military targets, but for anyone else – even in a war zone – there is little hazard. Ingestion or inhalation of uranium oxide dust resulting from the impact of DU munitions on their targets is the main possible exposure route.” (World Nuclear Association / Information / Uranium and Depleted Uranium, page 7) WWW.world-nuclear.org/info/inf14htm)

Second, it is a potent radioactive carcinogen, emitting a relatively heavy alpha particle composed of two protons and two neutrons. Once inside the body -- either in the lung if it has been inhaled, in a wound if it penetrates flesh, or ingested since it concentrates in the food chain and contaminates water -- it can produce cancer in the lungs, bones, blood or kidneys.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (“A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurement taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts to local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the possibility of significant exposure to the local populations was found to be very low.” (World Health Organization Fact Sheets / Depleted Uranium, page 2) WWW.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact257.html)

Third, it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, meaning the areas in which this ammunition was used in Iraq and Kuwait will remain effectively radioactive for the rest of time.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (“This second phase started in September 2001 and was concluded in March 2002 with the publication of the report “Depleted Uranium in Serbia and Montenegro – Post Conflict Environmental Assessment in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia”. The report provided additional information and reveals important new discoveries on the environmental behaviour of DU. For example, we learned that still, more than two years after the end of the conflict, particles of DU dust can be detected from soil samples and from sensitive bio-indicators like lichen. However, as the levels were extremely low, it was only through the use of state of the art laboratory analysis that detection could be achieved. Based on our findings, UNEP could confirm that contamination at the targeted sites is widespread, though no significant level of radioactivity can be measured.” (Post Conflict Assessment Unit / Bosnia-Herzegovina, page 1) WWW.postconflict.unep.ch/actblhdu.htm)

Children are 10 to 20 times more sensitive to the effects of radiation than adults. My fellow pediatricians in the Iraqi city of Basra, for example, report an
increase of six to 12 times in the incidence of childhood leukemia and cancer.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (“Depleted uranium is not classified as a dangerous substance radiologically, though it is a potential hazard in large quantities, beyond what could conceivably be breathed. Its emissions are very low, since the half-life of U-238 is the same age as the earth (4.5 billion years). There are no reputable reports of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to ingested or inhaled natural or depleted uranium, despite much study. However, uranium does have a chemical toxicity about the same as that of lead, so inhaled fume or ingested oxide is considered a health hazard. Like most radionuclides, it is not known as a carcinogen, or to cause birth defects (from effects in utero) or to cause genetic mutations.” (World Nuclear Association / Information / Uranium and Depleted Uranium, page 7) WWW.world-nuclear.org/info/inf14htm)

Yet because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United States and the United Nations, they have no access to antibiotics, chemotherapeutic drugs or effective radiation machines to treat their patients.

COMMENT: (This reflects more wishful thinking by Dr. Caldicott. Neither the United States nor the United Nations impose sanctions with medicines, drugs or antibiotics. I could find the relevant UN document to prove this, but I don’t have the time and I think you’ll believe me.)

The incidence of congenital malformations has doubled in the exposed populations in Iraq where these weapons were used. Among them are babies being born with only one eye and with anencephaly -- the absence of a brain.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (See the above World Nuclear Association citation: “Like most radionuclides, it is not known as a carcinogen, or to cause birth defects (from effects in utero) or to cause genetic mutations.” Also, “No reproductive developmental effects have been reported in humans, but studies are limited.” (World Health Organization Fact Sheets / Depleted Uranium page 4) WWW.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact257.html)

However, the medical consequences of the use of uranium 238 almost certainly did not affect only Iraqis. Some American veterans exposed to it are reported, by at least one medical researcher, to be excreting uranium in their urine a decade later. Other reports indicate it is being excreted in their semen.


COMMENT AND SOURCE: (“The cohort of individuals, about half of whom have embedded fragments, who are being followed at the Baltimore VA Medical Center as part of the DU Follow-Up Program, represents a group of Gulf War veterans who received the highest levels of exposure to DU during the Gulf War. Although many of these veterans have health problems related to their injuries in the Gulf War and those with embedded fragments have elevated urine uranium levels, researchers to date report neither adverse renal effects attributable to chemical toxicity of DU nor any adverse health effects they relate to DU radiation (McDiarmid, 1998b). They do, however note several biochemical perturbations in neuroendocrine parameters related to urinary uranium concentrations and in some subtle neuropsychological test findings; the clinical significance of these is unclear.” (A Review of the Scientific Literature As It Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses, page 5) WWW.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/du/mr1018.7.sum.html)

That nearly one-third of the American tanks used in Desert Storm were made of uranium 238 is another story, for their crews were exposed to whole body gamma radiation. What might be the long-term consequences of such exposure has not, apparently, been studied.

COMMENT AND SOURCE: (“DU exposes the skin to alpha, beta, and gamma radiation. In the case of short-term radiation from particulates deposited on skin, more than 95 percent of the radiation present is in the form of alpha radiation, which has a very short range and will not penetrate the dead outer layer of the skin and thus poses no documented health risk. Beta and gamma radiation from 238 U decay products can irradiate cells in the deeper skin layers. Sufficient mass of DU to create radiation sufficient to be of concern can occur with intact munitions and armor. However, DU munitions are shielded to limit emitted radiation, and thus people working with intact munitions or armor usually face little risk. The measured exposure to gamma and beta radiation from bare penetrator or armor is well below recommended occupational levels (CHPPM, 1998). As a point of perspective, to reach the occupational radiation dose limit for beta and gamma radiation, a soldier would have to hold an unshielded DU penetrator for more than 250 hours.” (A Review of the Scientific Literature As It Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses, page 4) WWW.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/du/mr1018.7sum.html

Would these effects have surprised U.S. authorities? No, for incredible as it may seem, the American military's own studies prior to Desert Storm warned that aerosol uranium exposure under battlefield conditions could lead to cancers of the lung and bone, kidney damage, non-malignant lung disease, neurocognitive disorders,chromosomal damage and birth defects. Do President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld understand the medical consequences of the 1991 war and the likely health effects of the next one they are planning? If they don't, their ignorance is breathtaking. Even more incredible, though, and much more likely, is that they do understand but don't care.

COMMENT: (Read that last sentence again! Never let science stand in the way of a blatant political agenda, as this last statement clearly shows. The fact is, there is no science in this entire article. It’s just pure propaganda.)

[idlisambar]

14. excellent post

:thumbsup:

It looks like the issue is not as cut and dried as we might want it to be. Clark's position looks defensible, though my predilection is to err on the side of caution.

[MojoKrunch]

15. I'd read last year that the British Navy

stopped using DU ammo onboard their ships.
Given that they use the save Vulcan AA system(which, IIRC, uses DU slugs on American ships) as US ships, this blipped my bullsh*t radar.

Thanks for the info.

Mojo

[madfloridian]

23. Some comments.

QUOTE: COMMENT: (Read that last sentence again! Never let science stand in the way of a blatant political agenda, as this last statement clearly shows. The fact is, there is no science in this entire article. It’s just pure propaganda.)..."

So you are totally dismissing the work of Helen Caldicott and others who have opposed the use of DU. She is well-respected, and I feel it is a shame to just debunk her work.

Most of your links do not work, BTW, and I would feel more comfortable if they did. I do think you should find the source about the medical care and drugs:

Quote: COMMENT: (This reflects more wishful thinking by Dr. Caldicott. Neither the United States nor the United Nations impose sanctions with medicines, drugs or antibiotics. I could find the relevant UN document to prove this, but I don’t have the time and I think you’ll believe me.)"

[NNadir]

26. I don't know Helen Caldicott, but Mioshi's post is scientifically literate

Depleted Uranium is not much of a RADIOLOGICAL hazard. (The metal, is however a chemical toxin if solubilized; it interferes with kidney and, if my memory serves me well, liver, function.) If we're chasing our Democratic Candidates around based on their agreement with well established science, we're being fools.

General Clark is not my favored candidate, but he is probably right on this issue.

If Dr. Candicott is making the statements she is alleged to make here, she may not be worthy of the respect you claim for her.

There is nothing wrong with opposing the Iraq war, but we ought not to grasp at straws to do it. The war was wrong because it killed people for lies. We don't have to make fantastic claims about that. It was not a "nuclear war." To claim that it was is to cheapen the reality of what nuclear war actually is.

[madfloridian]

27. Why don't you just research her and others and form your own opinion.

I am just a simplistic, unscientific-type thinking person who is questioning. Actually, perhaps you need to talk to a lot of professors at nearby universities who respect her as well.

I asked if he were debunking her work.

Use it first, research later is not a good policy.

[NNadir]

32. While I don't know her, I do know Uranium.

The claim that the war in Iraq was "nuclear war" is the type of claim I've been seeing since I first joined with anti-Bush people on the web. It's nonsense, which I can say as someone who understands nuclear war very, very well. I really don't have too much interest in "researching" people who make statements like that.

I was disappointed when I first got on the internet to learn how much anti-scientific mythology permaeates the left. (Until then, I niavely imagined that most of us were scientifically aware. Of course then, there's the fool Ralph Nader's statement that "Plutonium is the most toxic substance known," another bit of urban mythology that turns out not to be even remotely true.) This depleted Uranium business seems to be, to my eye, our attempt to outdo the Repuke's "creationist" wing.

[madfloridian]

34. Most of the sites I researched today are not favorable to its use.

Your Quote:.."I was disappointed when I first got on the internet to learn how much anti-scientific mythology permaeates the left....."

And this one comment says a lot about your views toward other people. I don't care whose picture who have as your candidate, that is a rude thing to say.

And you might want to double-check your spelling of permeated...unless it is another option, not used as often.

[NNadir]

37. I mispelled the word.

Sorry. I didn't use a spell checker.

The fact is that the popular understanding of science is absymal in this country. I'm sorry if saying so is rude. It is also true.

The claim is made that Uranium tank shells represent "nuclear war." Nuclear war involves nuclear fission taking place in an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction. There is no nuclear chain reaction in Uranium tank shells. The fact that large number of persons confuse this issue is disturbing. Were it true that tank shells made of depleted Uranium could be used for "nuclear war" I think that nuclear weapons would have been much easier to make than they really are.

What you say also says a lot about you. You do not want to address the fact. You want to attack me on the grounds of my spelling and my personality. You have not, however, proved that tank shells constitute nuclear war. In fact, you cannot do so, because it is not true.

I am sorry I have offended you by refusing to chase after "university professors" to check out someone to whom I am exposed because I note that they have misrepresented a critical fact. (Pun intended.)

I believe that the opposition to war does not require elaborate fantasies about Uranium, a naturally occuring element that is about as common as Tin in the earth's crust. To oppose war on the grounds it uses Uranium tank shells undermines one's credibility. It is enough to oppose war simply because war kills.

[madfloridian]

39. It was your remark about the "left" that was insulting.

..."anti-scientific mythology permeates the left....."

You implied that the left was just not very capable of understanding.
In fact, I am not necessarily defending Caldicott's words about the war being nuclear. I just know what you said really bothered me.

That does not sound like a view that is objective and scientific. I know many left leaning folks who are very intelligent. That was what bothered me greatly. If you are at a Democratic board with a Dean icon on your post, and say the left is permeated by "anti-scientific mythology"....then I am surprised I am the only one noticing.

It truly truly bothers me to see people characterized that way. It does not sound right. You can take any stand you wish, but do not insult the "left".

[NNadir]

56. Let's be clear. I'm a leftist myself, and have been one for over 30 years

I'm scientifically literate.

All I am saying is that there is, to my surprise, scientific illiteracy on the left as well as on the right. I am pointing to this particular bit of mythology about DU as an example. Note that people want to make this a test issue with which to trash the General's candidacy. I would prefer that the attachment of untruths to Democratic candidates be left to the Republicans. We ought not to do it ourselves.

Since I travel mostly in scientific circles, I can also attest that I know lots of leftists who are highly intelligent. There are also leftists who are enormously ignorant of science. The "DU is the end of the world" crowd is one example. Another example would be some of the ideas embraced by Dennis Kucinich.

Al Gore, Howard Dean, Wesley Clark all have a highly developed sense of science. Indeed, Clinton and Gore provided an excellent environment in which to do science which showed itself in our then strong economy.

I have not said: "All leftists are scientifically illiterate." I have said that "Some leftists are scientifically illiterate." The first statement is untrue, wherease the second is true. You have interpreted it in a way I didn't intend. It cannot be said that I am insulting leftists as a whole. I am insulting some. Those who I am insulting deserve it in my viewl

[librechik]

72. I think they are more worried about aerosolizing DU by exploding it

then it gets into the lungs. It is more dangerous to sensitives like infants. But you're right, there is not much real scientific info; the first users (the military) won't support studies. All scientists have is second hand info. Obviously the military has political reasons to keep this stuff out of the statistical realm.

[KittyWampus]

75. DU Does NOT "Aerosolize" When Used Against Tanks

Thus Caldicot damages her own credibility.

[dfong63]

84. you are wrong - DU does aerosolize

and if Clark says otherwise - he's wrong too.

[dfong63]

85. yeah, if you call cherry-picking biased sources "scientifically literate"

[dajabr]

42. Has your research on depleted uranium been published somewhere?

A scholarly journal? Nature or Science magazine? AMA?

I'd like to compare your work to what's already out there.

[SahaleArm]

51. Is there reseach on DU in any respectable scientific journal? *nm*

[dajabr]

53. Can you re-word your question?

Your meaning is not clear to me.

[SahaleArm]

57. It was rhetorical.

There are few to no dispassionate studies on the effects of DU. Do we understand the radioactivity of uranium isotopes (234, 235, 238)? Yes, and we can extraoplate effects based on the radiology of Uranium-238 (depleted uranium). U-238 is 18,000x less radioactive than 234 and 7x times less than 235.

[NNadir]

66. Research into the health effects is on going.

Several reviews seem to indicate that the health effects of depleted Uranium are grossly overstated.

Here is a recent quotation from Chemical Reviews (Chemical Reviews, 2003, Vol. 103, No. 11, page 4269):

"The role of DU in the development of illnesses in
veterans of the Persian Gulf conflict has recently
been discounted, as the soldiers most directly in
contact with dust, namely those in or near explosions
of DU ordinance or armored vehicles or others who
treated or rescued the wounded, do not exhibit any
increase in the symptoms expected in those with
more direct exposure.449,450 Depleted uranium has
40% less specific activity than naturally occurring
uranium, but as a heavy metal, it is still chemically
toxic.450 Thus, it follows that the kidney should be
the first organ directly affected by poisoning with
uranium, and yet these soldiers were not found to
have suffered any impairment of renal function.449"

Reference 449 is from the Institute to Medicine's report, commissioned by Congress on the etiology of Gulf War Syndrome: Pyridostigmine Bromide, Sarin, Vaccines;
Fulco, C. E., Liverman, C. T., Sox, H. C., Eds.; National Academy
Press: Washington, DC, 2000; Vol. 1.

This report seems to conclude that there is no evidence of the (expected) kidney dysfunction expected among Gulf War Veterans (I hope this is good news) and no lung cancer effects. There is not enough data to make a determination about other health effects.

In short, General Clark is merely stating the truth. Depleted Uranium has not yet been established as a major cause of health effects in Veterans. This is not to say that Gulf War Syndrome does not exist, only to say that DU has not been identified as the cause.

[KittyWampus]

16. Problem: How To Isolate DU As Cause

When The WTC came down there was alot of dust containing lots of different substances.

How can you isloate Depleted Uranium as the cause of the various maladies and complaints suffered by veterans and even civilians?

Plus, with the soldiers, they have also been exposed to innoculations, haven't they?

During the Iraq Invasion there was some amount of discussion over DU and I came to the conclusion that there are a heck of a lot of more going on in the battlefield environment than just the DU.

Anyhow, my own statement as regards Clark is that DU was part of the American arsenal. He didn't put it there. I'm not sure if ANY of our Democratic Candidates (excepting the "unelectable few") would be against using it.

Coming out against it could easily be spun into "limiting US options/soft on defense/anti-military".

It would also probably make the US Government liable for damages... and a Democratic Candidate doing this would be a Dead Candidate Walking.

[dajabr]

43. Here's one way: Pull DU shrapnel out of your body...

"About two weeks after I was wounded, I was sent back to Germany. There was a lot of shrapnel -- my sleeping bag had eighty-two holes in it. All my gear was filled with holes. I brought it all into the house. I had a son who was three months old at the time. Within twelve hours, I was taking my baby to the hospital for respiratory problems. They kept him there for three days.

"I left Germany in December of 1991. I started having really bad abdominal cramps. I couldn't hold my food down. I was discharged, so I had no health insurance. Then, my wife miscarried, and no one knew why.

"In March, my dad calls me and says, 'Hey, did you know you were hit with depleted uranium?' I had given my dad a bunch of the shrapnel. I could still squeeze pieces out of my body. I had another piece up in my head. My dad was an industrial-hygiene technician for the Los Alamos labs. So he decided to put a Geiger counter to the shrapnel. It was radioactive -- the highest possible reading you can get. To this day, it's still in my system, and it's not losing any of its radioactivity."

http://feedthefish.org/blog/materials/johnson.html

I applaud Clark for proposing substantial increases in Verteran's Health Funding. But, since he does not see DU as a problem, I imagine soldiers like Jerry Wheat (and the thounsands like him) will be left out of the solution. All while the cause is being ignored.

I looked at Clark's proposal and saw no mention of DU or Gulf War Syndrome. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[KittyWampus]

76. Ancedotal Evidence Is Meaningless

and helps disprove your own point and highlights the weakness of your argument.

[KittyWampus]

18. One Activist Asked Edwards About Using DU

Edwards said he didn't know enough about it but would read up on it.

Here's a link to the birddogger- a guy who goes to meeting with Candidates and asks them tough questions.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=110

[SahaleArm]

19. Pseudo-Science?

Can anyone actually point to any scientific papers discussing the effects of DU (no pun intended:))? Preferably something beyond anecdotal evidence.

[dajabr]

44. "Army Not Adequately Prepared to Deal with Depleted Uranium Contamination"

Published by the GAO in the mid-Nineties.

Also:

The few independent studies that have been done on Gulf War veterans also suggest a link between depleted uranium and cancer. Han Kang, an environmental epidemiologist at the Department of Veterans Affairs who examined death certificates of Gulf-War-era vets, discovered a thirty percent increase in lymphoma. And Richard Clapp, an environmental epidemiologist at Boston University, used state medical records to track cases of cancer among 30,000 vets in Massachusetts. The statistical likelihood of finding even a single case of lymphoma among such a small sample is zero. So far, Clapp has found four.

Clapp warns it is too soon to draw conclusions from his research, noting that it usually takes at least ten years for those exposed to radiation to develop lymphoma. "That's especially true of other kinds of tumors such as lung cancer and solid cancers," he says. "So we have to keep looking at this."

The federal government, however, has supported almost no independent research into the effects of DU exposure. "The government depends on its own agencies for its information," says Rosalie Bertell, an expert in the relationship between low-level radiation and cancer who has been turned down for federal grants to study Gulf War vets. "Unless you say what the Pentagon says they won't pay any attention to you."

http://feedthefish.org/blog/materials/johnson.html

[SahaleArm]

49. Little to no scientific papers on Depleted Uranium.

That's probably the biggest issue. Interesting that many on this thread are positive there is a correlation based on anecdotal evidence.

[dajabr]

52. Interesting that Clark accepts the Pentagon's explanation...

Given that there are, "Little to no scientific papers on Depleted Uranium."

[SahaleArm]

59. There are scientific papers on Depleted Uranium

by the US military: http://www.deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/reports/medical_us.shtml

Unfortunately the only independent studies I found were by sources on both sides that I wouldn't trust, a.k.a. 'Anecdotal Science'. Every google search turns up either military sources or faith-based evidence.

[dfong63]

86. so how does this square with Clark's vaunted promise

to protect our men and women in uniform?

DU is the agent orange of this generation. in the vietnam war, soldiers and vets were exposed to agent orange, they got cancer and other diseases, their kids got birth defects, and meanwhile the brass stonewalled. they tried denying, they tried ridiculing, they tried "scientific" debunking.

now the same thing is happening with depleted uranium. how does Clark's arrogant dismissal of veterans' claims square with his much vaunted promise to protect our servicepeople?

[NNadir]

82. Scientifc Papers and reports are referenced in Chemical Reviews

as referenced in my post #66 above.

This is a bullshit thing to try to beat up on Clark, particularly because what he said is scientifically credible.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rose Siding]

22. That wasn't the issue

He wasn't discussing whether we'd quit using it. He said there's no correlation btwn DU and health probs. He also said he's certain none will be found. How can anyone make an honest statement out of that?

And why would you suggest that DU coating is our only hope for adequate weapons? Have you counted out ALL scientific advance for the US? Poor us!

[funkyflathead]

24. Good for Clark on this one

All the armchair commandos can go and cry.

Clark must know what he is talking about because he has spent his whole life around military weapons.

[Rose Siding]

25. And no one in the military

ever tried to trick anyone into believing something that wasn't so.

In fact, all of govt has a sterling record and is to be believed and trusted at all times. Let's roll!

[FrenchieCat]

28. I wrote the campaign a letter

and asked them to look into this issue. I requested that this may be an issue to discuss with the Veterans....a lot of them who support Wes Clark. I have to imagine that the subject of DU has come up before with these groups, considering that Vets who are supporting a Democratic candidate that has come on strong about veteran's health issues would ask.

The campaign is pretty receptive, so I am sure that I'll get an answer back. I faxed them the articles and everything.

[dajabr]

41. Absolutely...It should be a concern for his veteran supporters.

Hope they get back to you soon.

[dajabr]

40. "Would you rather our soldiers have inadequate weapons?"

Uh, no...

But I also don't want them dead or dying months after they return because of this stuff.

Or, do they not matter once they've served their purpose?

Asking whether Clark holds the view espoused in the quote means I "need to get a grip and learn basic physics?"

Why so touchy, Clarkie?

[madfloridian]

29. Hope it is safe.....they are testing it in fishing areas near Seattle.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/103402_fife09.shtml

SNIP..."The Navy routinely tests a weapon by firing radioactive, toxic ammunition in prime fishing areas off the coast of Washington, raising concerns from scientists, fishermen and activists.

The Navy insists the use of depleted uranium off the coast poses no threat to the environment. Depleted uranium, known as DU, is a highly dense metal that is the byproduct of the process during which fissionable uranium used to manufacture nuclear bombs and reactor fuel is separated from natural uranium. DU remains radioactive for about 4.5 billion years....."

SNIP..."The Pentagon has sent mixed signals about the effects of depleted uranium, saying there have been no known health problems associated with the munition. At the same time, the military acknowledges the hazards in an Army training manual, which requires that anyone who comes within 25 meters of any DU-contaminated equipment or terrain wear respiratory and skin protection, and says that "contamination will make food and water unsafe for consumption."

How do the people of Seattle feel about this? Do they agree it is very safe and no problem?

[madfloridian]

30. This doctor was fired from the Pentagon.....interview at Democracy Now.

http://archive.webactive.com/pacifica/demnow/dn20030130.html

SNIP..."Story: DR. ASAF DURAKOVIC GIVES A RARE INTERVIEW ABOUT DEPLETED URANIUM IN IRAQ: HE WAS THE FIRST MILITARY DOCTOR TO TEST GULF WAR VETERANS FOR RADIATION EXPOSURE AND WAS TERMINATED FOR HIS WORK"

There is the interview there in Real Player. I will see if the transcript is there as well.

Link to the interview is about halfway down.

[mikehiggins]

31. Could it be that the information he has seen bears him out?

Could this be an honest difference of opinion based on different reference material?

Nah, of course not. This has to be a plot that clearly makes Clark an evil monster that willingly dooms our soldiers to a radioactive torment.

We want leaders but only if they toe the party line.

[madfloridian]

35. That well could be.

The same way our reps and senators thought Saddam caused 9/11. There could be a truth somewhere in between, I just don't agree with him on this. There is too much evidence that it has not been researched and vetted.

I did not insult Clark, just questioned his stance on this. If you took it that way, you should not have done so.

[genius]

33. Depleted uranium is really bad stuff. Someone needs to educate him.

THe problem is that since he used the stuff on people, he'll have to live with what he finds out.

[seventhson]

36. Two words:

Ass

Hole

This is the kind of thing that makes me despise Clark, the candidate.

I do not hate nor despise people. But when people like him protect the nuclear debacle and the death and deformation of millions, they are worthy of the term "despicable"

Clark can go straight to hell for all I care (if I believed in it).

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. Of course it causes problems

but they aren't exactly throwing heaps o' money at studies on it, cause Lord knows they don't want to find out it's BAD, and therefore owe exposed vets and innocents folks tons of bucks in settlement

But what do you expect from a country that also uses land mines and cluster bombs, though?

[Eurobabe]

45. Pick your battles

You know, with these attitudes it is easy to see how Bu$h could take the election again. We Dems, Greens, Libs, Indies spend SO much time arguing over this that and the other issue -- that we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Four more years of Bu$h and this country will be unrecognizable.

I think DU (depleted uranium) is dangerous, it causes thyroid cancer from what I have heard. But this does not make me stray from Clark.

Whomever gets in office has a helluva mess to clean up from Junior, do we really expect that this person is going to be a flippin' messiah???

Pick your battles and solve the most serious crises up front.

[dajabr]

47. Clark picked this battle...

because he has made Veteran's Health Issues a plank in his platform.

And it raises some questions for me when a man of his intelligence and experience would propose to take on such a noble endevour and not mention DU or GWS once in his proposal? Then I see a quote where he's basically saying there's no problem with DU?

WTF? Did he just slap something together to better pander to vets, or is he still beholden to the Penatagon or The Haugue on this issue? Or, is he just mis-informed?

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. this is simple

A)DU is still in fact Uranium

B)Uranium is radioactive

C)Radioactive weapons are "Dirty Bombs"

if you support the military using DU, than you support terror

if you don't play even, you are corrupt

[SahaleArm]

50. And microwaves, cell phones, and electrical lines cause cancer.

Let's not start with the theory of transitivity; science is a good thing:).

[dajabr]

54. Yes it is...

Love Canal, section of Niagara Falls, N.Y., that formerly contained a canal that was used as chemical disposal site. In the 1940s and 50s the empty canal was used by a chemical and plastics company to dump nearly 20,000 tons (c.18,000 metric tons) of toxic waste; the waste was sealed in metal drums in a manner that has since been declared illegal. The canal was then filled in and the land given to the expanding city of Niagara Falls by the chemical company. Housing and an elementary school were built on the site. By the late 1970s several hazardous chemicals had leaked through their drums and risen to the surface. Investigations confirmed the existence of toxins in the soil and determined that they were responsible for the area's unusually high rates of birth defects, miscarriages, cancer, illness, and chromosome damage. Families were evacuated from the area in 1978, and in 1980 the Love Canal area was declared a national emergency.

The disaster led to the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency's "Superfund," which makes responsible parties liable for the cleanup of environmental hazards. More than $20,000,000 in settlement damages was paid by the chemical company and the city of Niagara Falls to a group of former residents. The company also agreed in 1994 to pay New York state $98 million and in 1995 to pay the federal government $129 million toward the costs incurred during the cleanup of the area. The evacuated neighborhood was repopulated in the 1990s after the cleanup was completed.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=28775

Before scientific investigations, the famillies near Love Canal were probably just "whackos" living near the power lines.

So, you're right, let's just listen to Clark and The Penatagon on this one. Outside investigations would just cause "trouble."

[SahaleArm]

58. We're talking about radioactive isotopes...

not chemical contaminants. Effects on health as it correlates levels of radioactivity is a well known field of study.

[OhioStateProgressive]

55. re read my post, and change your opinion, then you can be correct too (nt)

[ajacobson]

48. Official government site on DU

I personally do not wish that our government would use munitions like DU but on the question of the health risks of DU, I found the following government website. Take it or leave it, as you wish:

http://www.deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/

[TXvote]

62. And Agent Orange is Good On Wheaties

Are you telling me that Clark, who served within the US military machine believes our soldiers are being told the truth about dangerous exposures? Just like 35 years over agent orange cover up . Ask those vets and their families how hard it was to get documented medical evidence. Oops, I forgot, they are all dead, so you can't.
Clark needs to open his mind and get more information from the people who were there and know, not rely on the government to lead the way to resolving the cause of Gulf War illnesses.

[CWebster]

60. With each passing day-another reason to hold Clark in

contempt.

:puke:

[CWebster]

63. Anyone see the government produced film

of the testing of the bomb in the desert? Recall the soldiers who witnessed it who were dusted off with whisk brooms and later developed cancers...no health risks they said with a smile.

[mzmolly]

64. Not in the least bit surprised....

*sigh*

[madfloridian]

65. Was there a movie called Desert Bloom?

No one really took the thing very seriously, did they? Folks not far away just stood outside and looked at the big funny-looking mushroom cloud, saying ooh and aah.

[ultrafoil]

69. As an old school clarkie

... and I'm not saying that as a freeper, I would like the General to clear this up, does anyone remember the film they showed us in the 4th grade with the nukular exec with the depleted uranium pellet in his mouth?

I always woundered what happened to that guy.

[dfgrbac]

70. DEPLETED URANIUM EDUCATION PROJECT

I don't know if anyone referred to the DEPLETED URANIUM EDUCATION PROJECT since I didn't read all the comments, but people (especially all Americans) need to know how dangerous it is. This site has much info.

It's too bad DU stands for that dangerous pollutant as well as this forum. An unfortunate coincidence.

[dajabr]

71. Thanks for the link! (nt)

[coralrf]

73. As he said..THERE IS NO EVIDENCE...

and he is correct. There is a huge amount of rhetoric and speculation. Brain Dead Americans are susceptible to the word "Uranium" and too fucking stupid to know what "Depleted" means.

The shit is used because it is very heavy. It has no potential for radioactive lethality. It is DEPLETED!!!!

There is no reason to believe that the USA is not using dirty weapons. But DU is not one of them. Most of its critics are those on the receiving end of it. Saddam for instance, who tried to spin it killing thousands of Iraqi’s while he killed even more. He never discussed the real reason Iraqi’s were dying: starvation as corruption was rampant in his regime and palace building a priority. DU was jumped on in the US by a bunch of fucking ignorant goody two shoers so Saddam said Right on!!!

DU is DU. Study it. Learn some physics before you fume.

You have Salmonella in you right now. You were irradiated by the sun today. Your pet cat is a product of Genetic engineering. “All natural” is bullshit as there are no foods in your grocery that are from the “un-natural world”. Vitamins are “VITal in MINimal “quantities and taking whopping amounts of them is fucking dumb. You cannot “Block Carbs” and lose weight eating all the “pasta, pizza and bread” you like. You cannot enhance your memory or your penis size. DU is depleted.

Everyone that says otherwise is just trying to get something from you..money or power. Think about it.

[OhioStateProgressive]

77. wow!, too bad you're wrong

Depleted Uranium used as armor isn't all that much of a concern

but these new weapons, new "low yield" Uranium bunker busters, are in fact using the power of multiplied radioactivity to create bigger explosions

your rant about other things, well, i kinda agree...

but on the Depleted Uranium thing...well, i think you should recheck anything you ever read

[Enquirer]

79. Thats a different story

Clark was not talking about such things, he was talking about DU. Lets keep things straight.

[OhioStateProgressive]

80. DU used in weaponry=unsafe...DU used as armor=more safe (nt)

[Enquirer]

78. Right On

There is no issue with depleted uranium. It is as harmless as your microwave. Maybe you hide in the bathroom while your TV dinner is heating up, but you might as well sleep with sunglasses. If anything, Clark was being diplomatic in giving a reasoned answer to something that is just not plausible.

[Fleshdancer]

81. Info on DU from the World Health Organization

There's a ton of DU info on this link for those who are interested in learning more.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/


In the kidneys, the proximal tubules (the main filtering component of the kidney) are considered to be the main site of potential damage from chemical toxicity of uranium. There is limited information from human studies indicating that the severity of effects on kidney function and the time taken for renal function to return to normal both increase with the level of uranium exposure.

In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.

[Qutzupalotl]

83. Another link on possible effects of depleted uranium

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
WARNING: Extremely graphic images!

These are photos of babies born in Iraq a few years after the first Gulf War, when DU munitions were first introduced into their environment. If you google "depleted uranium babies", you'll find many similar sites.

Dismiss it as anectdotal/circumstantial/coincidential if you want, but I suspect there is some connection. A moratorium on use of DU munitions until more conclusive evidence is presented would be a prudent move.

The General strikes me as a reasonable man, and I hope once he's president he will take a closer look at this issue, even if it exposes the US to lawsuits. I understand the need to keep this quiet during an election year, but for Christ's sake...let's end this if we can, before Bush invades again.

Frenchie, if you're still reading this, I hope you'll forward to Clark's campaign. Thanks.