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What happens to US Stock Market if the dollar drops precipitously?

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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:08 PM
Original message
What happens to US Stock Market if the dollar drops precipitously?
This is my first post in economy forum - so please be gentle. I don't have any knowledge of the stock market. I know I should go read books about this, but I know me and I know I am not going to. So any straightforward explaining you can do will be greatly appreciated.

My issue: I have retirement funds in, primarily, money market funds and bonds, invested through TIAA-CREF. Despite regular contributions by my employer, my retirement funds have not grown nearly as I would have expected (since the collapse after 9/11).

My concern is that the bottom will fall out of the US stock market and I want to know what to do with my funds - move them to EU stocks? move them to bonds entirely? buy gold?

I've heard that Gates moved his money to the EU Market - is that right? Why?

If the Iranian bourse opens, and has as its base euros, instead of dollars, what happens to US stocks and bonds?

I've seen posts that indicate that gold is doing very well right now - is that a way to avoid the pain of a market crash?

Thanks for any suggestions you have... :hi:





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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hard to say
Some stocks will benefit from it, especially companies that have major overseas holdings.

Overall, I would expect the stock market to suffer from the crash, but the markets are simply not predictable.

--p!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Fair enough, why will some stocks benefit from a drop in the dollar?
:shrug:
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Overseas investors
When the Dollar loses value, you can get more NON-dollars for the junk in your warehouses. Of course, you have to catch it in the right part of the trade cycle, but that's about half of all international trade.

Stocks based on international trade often rise when the value of the Dollar falls. It works the same for any currency, but the Dollar is the currency that has been the most debased in the last five years or so.

Ever since December 13th, 2000, in fact.

--p!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes, see, that is what I have been wondering -
Does it make any sense for me to think that if I had invested in stocks in European countries 5 years ago - then my investment would have risen (in dollar terms) - if for no other reason than the dollar has shrunk.

$100 (transformed to Euros by investing in European countries 5 years ago) might be worth the same amount of Euros now - but those Euros, if transformed back to dollars would be worth $120 to $140 - just like if I had put the dollars in the European bank 5 years ago???

:crazy:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Increased volatility. nt
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm guessing here. If the corporation gets most of it's money from
the US, the price should stay the same. If it gets money from customers overseas, it should go up. The reasoning is that a crashed dollar would only matter with things that are bought outside the US. So everything we buy (almost) should go up and maybe big. So companies dealing outside will have big profits - in US dollars.

The other side of the coin - if people need money, they will sell their stocks. The rich will be the first ones out of the market, so they will sell their stocks. The mutual funds - which own 50-90% of the shares of stocks will be in a bind. They are too big to sell easily.

Euros - Everbank in Nebraska I think will let you open an Euro account. THere are always Swiss banks, but I really couldn't get a handle on which one to bank at. If you're near Canada, you might go up there and talk to banks.

Gold - This is a tough one. I did invest in gold coins. There is a big difference between the bid & ask price so that I lost an immediate 1/4 of the price of the gold I bought. Watch what you buy and get the facts from whomever you buy it from. Looks like gold is going sky high.

Kramer today suggested buying stocks in the French company credit agricole. They are investing in an Egyptian bank.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I am restricted in that I don't have $$ to put in myself -
I can only move money around within TIAA-CREF. I am limited to what they have available and the choices are pretty much money market funds in the US vs. money market funds abroad.

I will look into gold...
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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. If your options are money-markets
you may want to switch most or all into euros now, like, now.

Lower interest rate (possbly due to rise a little) but probably stronger currency.

Swings and roundabouts. A US economy crash hurts all. An Iran attack hurts all.

Gold is an option but only on a reliable contract at a safe bank (or in your own secure posession). Beware of paper with nothing to back it up.

Be ready to switch back into dollars when the time comes.

Standard disclaimer.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's probably more complicated than this, but here's one scenario:
The dollar drops.
The Fed raises interest rates in an (failed) attempt to support the dollar...dollar keeps dropping.
Money starts fleeing u.s. equities.
The Fed starts buying u.s. equities (using newly printed dollars) in an (failed) attempt to stop deflation.
A self-defeating spiral happens...raise interest rates to support dollar AND buy equities (and real estate) to fight deflation.

The deflation i'm referring to IS NOT consumer deflation, it is equity and real estate deflation...the only kind of deflation the fed is worried about.

Standard disclaimer: I am not a money manager, nor do i have any financial training. Do not take my statements as financial advice.

That being said, I am buying all the gold and silver i can afford.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. KABOOOM
There be speculation for short term gain
Will see a run major sell order
As they covert from dollar base to other currency based stock.

Reality
The Fund Managers all going to run
They will take their money to invest in others areas
But no fear they be back and will make a killing

People around the world getting cold feet on US dollars
Dont know when panic start but looks like it is coming
Gold looks good cause no one really can tell how bad it will be when dollar crash
Anything is better then dollar when it crash thats for sure.

Wont advise you to hold US stock unless you buy with real cash
You be wipe if you playing on margin
Attraction of Euro based stock 2 fold
Appreaction in value from performance ( look real carefully at stock you want to buy and what field they are in, take into account the impact on their business if currency crisis hit)

And also Forex movement ( Can safely say more currency will appreciate against the dollars, Euro posed to be the next world currency will take a while but the switch is coming )

Can always sell later and move back to Dollars based stock when the storm pass. Gate is smart the dollar is weakening. He will move back to dollars after the storm and gee he has a lot cash to buy then.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Forex movement ?
I think I understand what you are saying, but could you clarify?

I think just about everything you said, was what I was thinking might happen. No worry about playing on margin - it is all cash.

Thanks!
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. OK
From outside the media curtain

We not abandoning US just watching to see where it is headed 2006 decider
If bush continue his crazy course the concluesion is clear US headed to a disaster and complete meltdown.

Everyone watching all ready to run
Matter of who blink first, first one to blink and head for the door will see all running for the door.
Last one out will be the sucker with bush for company.

When world panic we see worldwide recession, but hey a few bruises if better then getting a big KABOOM.

Noone noone want to see a worldwide recession but crazy bush dont know what he is doing so maybe dont have choice but to say "FUCK IT" time to "CUT AND RUN" bush can stay his course alone.

So you looking at a suituation of everyone dumping the dollars ( VERY PAINFUL SCENE ) going to hurt bigtime but the ball is at bush legs.
Your guess is at good as mine wheather he is going to give a damn and stop playing with soldiers and start doing the work. ( Personally I think he got so much shit going on he wont be able to function sadly it means train going over the cliff. China already send signal so we watching China head for door we all out of here fast fast. )

Forex movement... if dollars weaken like 20% say over this year and you has 1 million US it still be a million US but it buy you less. However if you have it in Euro it will now be 1.2 million at end of year. Nobody wants to caught with dollar at this moment but fact is all got lots of dollars. So when panic selling start it is going to be BAD a big FUBAR.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I got it - thanks... could you please tell *everyone* on your side
of the media curtain - that *We.Did.Not.Elect.This.Lunatic* - the last two Presidential Elections were stolen, stolen, stolen!

And as for this - "bush can stay his course alone" - he won't, he is going to take us down with him. And we are scared.

I already took my test to immigrate to Canadia, last December, when the 2004 election had been stolen and I have enough points to immigrate. Then I decided to stay. It is no time to cut and run on my fellow citizens.

:hi:
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. We know about
How he win in 2000
We total shock and confused on how he did in 2004

I read enough on how election is conducted in US to know that if you cannot have verified vote then you all screwed and you never have America back.

As to running away to Canada, not going to help
You are the frontline troops for people of this world
When you fail we step in
That means World War at the worst case scenarioes.
Remeber US the world most powerful military
So lots of pain to finally bring it under control again
So where to run where to hide.
Do not give up or we end up doing the job
Millions will die then
US will be crush cause you can not fight the World and win.
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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. EO thinks what OV says is true n/t
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Dollar denominated securites will fail.
I think, except for longer term bonds.

A paradox.

I have never seen anything like this. But it appears, the longer term bonds are discounting the mess here. And it is a mess.

Gold is at 538 an ounce today. At or near 20 year highs. Was 270 a few years ago.

If anyone really knew what was coming, they wouldn't be here.

I do think - the most important thing now is to be conservative. Protect principle first - even if that means stuffing money in your mattress.

Something is going down here. It is very strange action. I put dow futures, but I do not have a feeling for the probability. I saw the insider selling in the dow stocks, so I have an instinctive reaction. You just be careful.

I want the republicans to feel the fury here - not dems. Something is going on, I am pretty sure.

Joe

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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. buy gold n't
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. WHAT HE SAID!!! nt
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. OKAY!!! ;-) If I can... (nt)
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. GLD = Gold ETF = Approx. $53.50/Share = Potential $$$$$$$$$ nt
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. there are a number of
gold and metals mutual funds that are doing extremely well right now.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. That is good info - thanks! (nt)
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. it's always dangerous to focus on only one moving part
world economies and currencies and markets are all interrelated and there's no such thing as a controlled macroeconomic experiment. so be careful what you focus on, and why.

WHY the dollar falls is very important to understanding what's going on. one of the prime reasons for a currency to drop is because the economy and/or market based in that currency is sucking.

i.e., the u.s. market might decline FIRST, and THEN the dollar falls as a result of the market sucking. people sall u.s. stocks and reinvest in foreign stocks, dumping dollars for euros, e.g., in the process. the effect of the lower dollar then helps slow further decline of the u.s. market in the sense that this means that foreigners can get more dollars for their euros, which makes u.s. stocks (and other dollar-denominated assets) look cheap. a lower dollar helps get the u.s. economy going by effectively marking down prices. like the entire nation is having a sale.

of course, this in turn can lead to inflation as foreigners bid up the price of u.s. goods. naturally, all this applies only to u.s. exports or tourist business, the stuff foreigners can get. with the u.s. economy being more based on service than it used to be, we don't benefit from a dollar decline like we would have had we still been heavily manufacturing-based.

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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. So
true
Now get you president to start doing some honest to christ HARD WORK.
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publius_jr Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
25. some thoughts
It is not inconceivable that were the dollar to fall, the stock market would rise (in nominal, not real, terms). The decline of the dollar would occur because of a decline in the demand of the dollar or an increase in the supply of the dollar, relative to other currencies. The dollar is likely to suffer on both these fronts.

The supply of the dollar has been increasing rapidly with Bush, his war, and his cronies in Congress. We are now over $8 trillion dollars in debt (not including future obligations). Other countries, unfortunately, also debase their currency, and also face future problems, which will likely result in much more debasing, like ours. Nevertheless, the supply of a currency tends to increase with the depravity of its government, and our government is now one of the most depraved of all time.

These supply concerns themselves, of course, decrease demand in the dollar. But there are other forces that also contribute. One is China, which is revaluing their currency; they will be buying less dollars in the future. Another regards oil, which is currently traded in dollars. In a few months, however, a new exchange will emerge where oil can be traded without dollars.

The outcome of this fall in the dollar will be that we will have to offer higher interest rates to foreigners in order for them to be willing to accept our dollar-denominated investments. In a market economy, higher interest rates would inhibit growth in the supply of money. But ours is not a market economy. The Fed can print money at will, and probably will. I would not be surprised if the Fed prints up dollars to buy long-term bonds. This will kill the dollar but keep our economy going. Eventually something bad will happen, like hyperinflation. Stocks, while becoming less desirable, can still increase in price if dollars become even less desirable.

This is sort-of what happens now. The value of the dollar decreases by half roughly every ten years. Look at a graph of M3, the broad money supply. This corresponds to a rate of inflation of about 7%. Price inflation does not mirror this rate exactly and evenly. Efficiency gains and free-market forces diminish the visible inflation rate (i.e. price inflation). Also, people overbid certain asset classes, such as stocks in the late 90s, or houses and bonds now. The "official" inflation rate, the CPI, excludes and limits these latter effects, resulting in an underestimated value. (Current home prices are not accurately reperesented in the CPI; nor were stocks a few years ago.) Politicians love this, as they can say the econmoy is better than it actaully is. But price inflation, even by the underestimating CPI, is still at 4%. I'm not sure how much of the 3% gap we should attribute to "good" efficiency/free-market gains and how much to "bad" manipulation, but we should at least be aware of the latter.

When you look at a chart of the stock market, I suggest you adjust it for inflation. The exact inflation rate to use at a given point in time is difficult to determine. Using the above current estimations, I would use a number between 4% and 7%. Perhaps you could make a band-chart: graph, first, the S&P discounted by the actual inflation of the monetary supply (now 7%) and, then, the S&P discounted by the reported CPI. In either case the graph will be below the one we see everyday (the nominal one). Note that the real chart lies somewhere in that band. Also note that the stock market was roughly flat this past year; this means that it lost about 7%. Inflation's a bitch.

The moral: 1. Gold is renown as a store of wealth. Buy some. You won't get rich (in real terms) but you wont' get poor, either. 2. Don't put dollars udner your mattress. They are not sure to retain their value. Gold is infinitely more desirable to serve this function; it supply is not arbitrarily manipulated. 3. Conservative foreign investments are not a bad idea; if the dollar falls, the value of these goes up (in dollar terms), excluding effects the falling-dollar itself has on the value of the investment. (The value of a business dependent on American buyers, with no alternative market, will be increase because dollars are worth less and decrease because Americans are poorer and will buy less of their products.) 4. Depending on how worried you are, you may want to learn to farm. I don't know how to now, nor do I have the land, but when I get out of school, my first investment will be a huge plot of good farmland, but not just beacuse I'm worried. I also favor that lifestyle.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Interesting..
.... thanks for posting and welcome to DU.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. There's a Lot of Uncertainty in 2006
So far, January has been an up month, as it often is. It's a good time to own stocks. But some time between early Feb and early May, it might be wise to move your TIAA money to the most conservative possible option (if TIAA has different options you can choose from). November-January are more likely to be up months. It may be wise to have more aggressive investments in those months. These two trades a year can make a big difference in the value of your portfolio when you retire.

Predicting a crash is notoriously difficult. Most major stock rallies "climb a wall of worry," meaning that stockholders are constantly concerned about losing all their gains. Only when there is a consensus that the the market is safe does the market usually tank.

Gold can sometimes fall right alongside stocks when there is a decline. It's not a perfect inverse relationship by any means. And gold can decline all by itself, too. There is no real safe haven, although fixed interest is about as safe as it comes.

As far some of the scenarios you suggest, I wouldn't use any of them to take a position in the market. Markets always surprise investors, and it always seems to be due to factors that no one is considering or news that hasn't been announced.

Having said that, one reason the market has recovered since the crash of 2000 is because of foreign investors buying cheap US stocks because of a low dollar. A low dollar stimulates exports but makes imports more expensive. The net and the effect on the market is not easy to figure. Things like the Iranian bourse are not likely to have a noticeable impact. Euros have performed well the last few years, but they're no guarantee either. European economies have their own problems, and their currencies can underperform the dollar, too.

For this reason, I have slowly moved from depending on fundamental analysis of a company's financials to technical indicators of market movement. It's the only way to trade based on some of these hidden factors.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. If You're Concerned About a Decline in 2006,
look at this link, including the charts:
Currently, the P/E has remains at a level where, except for the bubble years of 1998-2002, the market at best had trouble making forward progress, and at worst experienced major declines. This will be a significant drag on the market until the P/E can correct back toward the area of 15, which represents fair value. A correction to undervalue (10) could also happen, but that is a rare occurrence and not necessary to set up favorable conditions.

CONCLUSION: Normal cyclical expectations and high valuations present significant obstacles for the market this year, and the bull/bear cycle suggests that a significant decline will occur between now and the end of the year. That said, I should point out that Decision Point's timing models for the broad market remain on buy signals, and the trend is up. The odds favor a decline this year, but the top isn't in place yet.

http://www.decisionpoint.com/ChartSpotliteFiles/060106_2006out.html
Carl Swedlin is one of my favorite market analysts. He has a ton of experience, takes a very long-term view, and seems to be unprejudiced toward either bulls or bears. The "Chart Spotlight" link at the top takes you to a list of similar analyses.
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