Appeals Court OKs Navy Use of Sonar - AP

[Eugene]

Source: Associated Press

Appeals Court OKs Navy Use of Sonar

Friday August 31, 2007 6:16 PM

By PAUL ELIAS

Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The Navy can use high-power sonar
during exercises off the Southern California coast, despite
the technology's threat to whales and other marine mammals,
a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

National security interests outweigh the possible harm to
marine life, a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit
Court of Appeals determined in overturning a judge's order
banning the practice.

“The public does indeed have a very considerable interest in
preserving our natural environment and especially relatively
scarce whales,” Judge Andrew Kleinfeld wrote for the majority.
“But it also has an interest in national defense. We are
currently engaged in war, in two countries.”

-snip-

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6888523,00.html

[Gregorian]

1. Woohoo! Nothing gets in the way of WAR and PROFIT.

Kill everything!

Humans deserve what is coming to them. Like no life on earth. If only people would just open their hearts and eyes. Damn it!

[Mojorabbit]

2. This makes me sick n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Bulls**t. "National security interests outweigh the possible harm to

marine life," I do not agree.

[hunter]

4. Enemies of the U.S. only have to wait as our nation rots from within.

No, I don't stay awake at night worrying about Taliban submarines.

"We arecurrently engaged in war, in two countries...(!!!)” :wtf:

[Gregorian]

5. I combat this sonic crap with THIS-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIlUVosJXDs

[happyslug]

6. The Taliban have Subs????? Or is it the Iraqis insurgents????

The actual Opinion is here:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/Documents.nsf/54dbe3fb372dcb6c88256ce50065fcb8/a1a0c2a7d488458b8825731e00030a0a/$FILE/0756157o.pdf

My comment is based on why bring up the fact we are fighting two wars when this technology has will have NO affect on our conduct of ether one? This remains true if you include Iran, which has some submarines, but not enough so that this new technology is needed.

For the Ninth Circuit list of Cases, if the above does not work to get you to the direct opinion:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/

The case is on (As I am typing) the left od the page, about halfway down and marked:
# (08/31/07) NRDC v Winter, No. 07-56157: Order

[hunter]

7. What a crock of moldy patriotic woo-woo.

"We are currently engaged in war, in two countries. There are no guarantees extending from 2007 to 2009 or at any other time against
other countries deciding to engage us, or our determining that it is necessary to engage other countries. The safety of the whales must be weighed, and so must the safety of our warriors. And of our country."

What's really happening is they are shitting bricks about very quiet non-nuclear submarines that can go great distances very quietly and without surfacing, things similar to the Sweden's "Air Independent" submarines that can be loaded up with liquid oxygen and fuel and later pop up anywhere. (The exhaust is simply dissolved in the surrounding water.)

The Navy has even gone so far as to lease such submarines for our practice in war games.

But, oh, what the hell, why bother with fuel cells, stirling engines and other expensive high tech stuff when you can simply put all your crap in an ordinary shipping container and pay someone else to do the carriage?

You look at all the drugs that pass into the United States, including opiates from Afghanistan, and you've got to wonder why anyone would develop a super quiet submarine with the intent of attacking the United States when they could simply train a few guys to fly airplanes into buildings or spread anthrax about.

Conflict of the sort that occurred in the Second World War is pretty much obsolete unless your intent is to kill off a significant fraction of the human race. The average Iraqi "warrior" sitting at the side of a road waiting to set off an "improvised" explosive device really doesn't give a shit about the latest and greatest aircraft carrier or submarine.

As a matter of fact, I do think whales are more important than the use of this sonar in these pork barrel war games.

[happyslug]

8. Actually combat like WWII will occur in the Future.

Such Combat has always been through of as obsolete until you are in it. For example WWII level combat occurred during the 30 years War in the 1600s, the Napoleonic Wars in the early 1700s, WWI and WWII in the 1900s. Earlier example (But more local) is the French Invasion of Ira-ly in the 1500s, The Crusades, The Arab Conquest of the 600s (And the Earlier Roman-Persian Wars of the Early 600s). the Conquest of Italy under Justinian in the 500s, Caesar's Conquest of Gaul, The Punic Wars, and even Alexander's Conquests, just to name a Few. All require people to believe "Victory" by Conquest was possible, when other people thought the same way OR opposed the Conquest (Thus Alexander's Conquest is slightly different from the rest, for Victory, while opposed, was more in the Nature of the Colonial Division of Africa in the 1800s then a fight over who will rule).

Having said that, all of the above wars were fought by Armies designed and raised for more "normal wars", fight between countries over trade and the subsequent peace treaties to solve the same disputes. We have missed this type of war during the Cold War, but it is the norm, massive wars like WWII is the exception. Such "Normal War" have limited aims, and involve limited resources (Look at the Mexican War compare dot the Civil War, the later was like the above, but on a National Level, an argument over HOW America should be ruled, slave or free. THe Mexican War on the other hand was who was to control the trade on Texas, New Mexico and California? Mexico or the US. THe US had moved into the Area, as a trade route, starting in the 1820s and by the 1840s you probably had more Americans in the area then Mexicans (Trough, Excluding Texas, you had more Native Americans then Either). These new Trade routes caused tension between the US and Mexico that ended up in what we Americans Call the Mexican War. The Mexican War is like most "Normal Wars" i.e. over trade and after the Fighting is over, both sides signed a treaty accepting the new trade and or border relationship. No real effort at Conquest is made, unlike the US Civil War and WWII (and the wars mentioned above).

"Normal War" are quite common, Granada, Panama are examples of Such wars, the results are rarely monumental, but unlike "real wars" (i.e. WWII) these can be planned for and armies equipped to fight them. "Real Wars" require full mobilization of a Nation (and most nations next to that nation) and takes years to prepare (or if started before a country is prepared, takes years for both sides ot really get up to the same level of Fighting, thus you have huge changes in the War, one sides is "winning" then the other side, and sometimes it reverses again, did not happen in WWII but did happen in the 30 years war).

Thus why are we testing this Sonar off California? It is NOT for some future war with China or Russia. That is years away (if it is ever fought). Such a war may be a "Real War" but would take years to get to that level, no this Sonar is for Iran. A US war with Iran is planned to be a quick war. Iran has some Russian Conventional Subs which the Navy thinks may pose a threat to its Flight. Thus the Testing. You do NOT need to worry about Diesel power subs in the Deep Ocean, but you do need to worry about them off Coastlines. Thus the Navy wants to test the Sonar for an attack off Iran, instead of staying in the Arabian Sea when the Attacks takes place. Operating in the Open Ocean of the Arab Sea protects the Carriers from such Diesel Subs better then this Sonar, but the Navy wants it Carriers in the PErsian Gulf so the Jets can carry more bombs and less fuel (Operating in the Arabian Sea would require the Jets to fly further, which means more fuel have to be careered at the expense of bombs, OR the expense of in-flight refueling).

My point this is NOT for some Future war where America has a real stake in the outcome (i.e. a "real war") but in the upcoming Colonial adventure Bush wants to do with the Persian Gulf Region.

[hunter]

9. I doubt Iran has any great strategic plans for it's submarines.

It's a reflection of our own paranoid dementia that we think they might.

I said in another post that we in the U.S. are all just maggots crawling around in the dead corpse of a superpower. Some of us live under the illusion that we animate it.

A "quick war" you say? Like Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm sure...

Grenada, Panama, those were both within our normal military capabilities. Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, or Venezuela are not.

The Ice was here, the Ice was there,
The Ice was all around:
It crack'd and growl'd, and roar'd and howl'd--
Like noises of a swound.

At length did cross an Albatross,
Thorough the Fog it came;
And an it were a Christian Soul,
We hail'd it in God's name.

The Marineres gave it biscuit-worms,
And round and round it flew:
The Ice did split with a thunder-fit;
The Helmsman steer'd us thro'.

And a good south wind sprung up behind,
The Albatross did follow;
And every day for food or play
Came to the Marinere's hollo!

In mist or cloud on mast or shroud
It perch'd for vespers nine,
Whiles all the night thro'
Glimmer'd the white moon-shine.

"God save thee, ancyent Marinere!
"From the fiends that plague thee thus--
"Why look'st thou so?"--with my cross bow
I shot the Albatross.

II.

The Sun came up upon the right,
Out of the Sea came he;
And broad as a weft upon the left
Went down into the Sea.

And the good south wind still blew behind,
But no sweet Bird did follow
Ne any day for food or play
Came to the Marinere's hollo!

And I had done an hellish thing
And it would work 'em woe;
For all averr'd, I had kill'd the Bird
That made the Breeze to blow.

Ne dim ne red, like God's own head,
The glorious Sun uprist:
Then all averr'd, I had kill'd the Bird
That brought the fog and mist.
T'was right, said they, such birds to slay
That bring the fog and mist.

The breezes blew, the white foam flew,
The furrow follow'd free:
We were the first that ever burst
Into that silent Sea.

Down dropt the breeze, the Sails dropt down,
'Twas sad as sad could be
And we did speak only to break
The silence of the Sea.

All in a hot and copper sky
The bloody sun at noon,
Right up above the mast did stand,
No bigger than the moon.

Day after day, day after day,
We stuck, ne breath ne motion,
As idle as a painted Ship
Upon a painted Ocean.

Water, water every where
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water every where,
Ne any drop to drink.

The very deeps did rot: O Christ!
That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs
Upon the slimy Sea.

About, about, in reel and rout
The Death-fires danc'd at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green and blue and white.

And some in dreams assured were
Of the Spirit that plagued us so:
Nine fathom deep he had follow'd us
From the Land of Mist and Snow.

And every tongue thro' utter drouth
Was wither'd at the root;
We could not speak no more than if
We had been choked with soot.

Ah wel-a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young;
Instead of the Cross the Albatross
About my neck was hung.



From The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
by Samuel Taylor Coleridge