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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:25 PM
Original message
Prince Charles slams nanotechnology
REUTERS , LONDON

Britain's Prince Charles has fired a new broadside at the scientific community, warning them of the dangers of the breakthrough science of nanotechnology.

Writing in the Independent on Sunday, the heir to the throne welcomes the "triumph of human ingenuity" working with extremely small particles -- a nano is a measurement of a billionth of a meter, or 1/80,000 the diameter of a human hair.

But Prince Charles, who is a committed environmentalist, also shares the concerns of John Carroll, retired professor of engineering at Cambridge University, who has given evidence to a Royal Society and Royal Academy of Engineering study on nanotechnology.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/12/2003178702
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gorrister Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. for a Royal
Prince Charles is OK.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. What?
Edited on Sun Jul-11-04 11:39 PM by physioex
The guy is a total moran. He had one of the prettiest and nicest woman around and he let her go for some worthless ass bitch. On top of the fact that the guy is totally clueless....
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or, we could listen to the people who know what they're talking about...
Nah... let's listen to some guy who got where he is by accident of birth. That's a much better idea.

:eyes:
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jayavarman Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. No Shit!
You beat me to the punch.

He knows about as much about nanotechnology as I know about the British royal family . . . . not too much.
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gorrister Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. let's listen to a Cambridge professor...
"But Prince Charles, who is a committed environmentalist, also shares the concerns of John Carroll, retired professor of engineering at Cambridge University, who has given evidence to a Royal Society and Royal Academy of Engineering study on nanotechnology."
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And if you continue to read (I know it's trying)
You'd see that that professor appears to merely be worried that new treatments will be offered without appropriate testing.

Let's look at some more of the article:
In 2000 Steve Jones, professor of genetics at University College London, dismissed Charles' intervention on genetically modified food, advising him to go back to school.

Last week Michael Baum, a professor emeritus of surgery at University College London, said the heir to the throne "may have overstepped the mark" by promoting unproven therapies for cancer such as coffee enemas and carrot juice.

Unbowed, Prince Charles insisted scientists must listen to the worries of interested parties like himself.

"He hopes that the investigation will `consider seriously those features that concern non-specialists and not just dismiss those concerns as ill-informed or Luddite.' There will also, I believe, have to be significantly greater social awareness, humility and openness on the part of the proponents of emerging nanotechnologies than we have seen with other so-called `technological advances' of recent years."


In other words, we need to make sure that those who don't know what the hell they are talking about are comfortable with the new technology... maybe we can use puppets to explain it?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gorrister Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. sorry,
but I just finished reading Greg Bear's Blood Music recently, which is why I'm kinda touchy about the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441003486/103-1560932-6903803?v=glance
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I did notice your apology....
But you do realize DU isn't about personal attacks. It's a shame we come down to the the level of our vice-pResident at times....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Cambridge Professor...
Perhaps we can take his opinion into consideration, but he might be mistaken. As far as Charles goes, let him go back to his day job of cutting ribbons at shopping mall openings.......
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. good for prince charles, that nanotechnology stuff is downright scary!
Edited on Mon Jul-12-04 05:17 AM by treepig
from wikipedia:

Grey goo refers, usually in a science fictional context, to a hypothetical human extinction event involving nanotechnology, in which out-of-control self-replicating robots (Von Neumann machines) consume all life on Earth while building more of themselves (a scenario known as ecophagy). In a worst-case scenario, all of the matter in the Galaxy could be turned into goo (with "goo" meaning a large mass of replicating nanomachines lacking large-scale structure, which may or may not actually appear goo-like), killing the Galaxy's residents. The disaster could result from an accidental mutation in a self-replicating nanomachine . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo

even worse are the horrors of "green goo" - the marriage of nanotechnology with biotechnology. luckily, there are a few concerned groups out there dedicated to sanity, such as the ETC group:

. . . the field of nanobiotechnology (the convergence of nano and bio) and the specter of "Green Goo" pose an urgent need for foresight and caution. Will new life forms, especially those that are designed to function autonomously in the environment, open a Pandora's box of unforeseen and uncontrollable consequences?



Governments are suffering from myopia when it comes to nanotechnology, warns ETC Group. "Even as governments and industry belatedly accept that engineered nanoparticles may require regulation, they insist that more advanced stages of nanotech are too far over the horizon to consider regulating. They're wrong - we must look beyond nanoparticles to consider more advanced stages such as nanobiotechnology and a host of socio-economic impacts related to human rights, defense and trade," says Jim Thomas of ETC Group.



ETC Group concludes that society is not ready for the technological and economic upheaval that nano-scale technologies will deliver. Given the huge amount of government and private sector funding and the accelerated pace of scientific breakthroughs, it is a mistake for governments to focus on a 3-5 year horizon for regulating nanotech.



The nanotech industry prides itself on having learned the lessons of biotech, insisting that they won't repeat the missteps and mistakes associated with the introduction of genetically modified crops. Based on current trends, it looks like they're en route to another disastrous technology introduction.

http://www.etcgroup.org/article.asp?newsid=469


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Soloflecks Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. thank you, treepig!
Yes, indeed, the specter of unforeseen disaster should be given very special attention. I agree with Prince Charles on this one.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. thank you for the kind comments
in the past, i've tended to take a pro-technology slant.

for my efforts i've been accused of such things as being a paid shill for halliburton. however, not only has halliburton been awfully slow in sending the checks, such allegations also hurt my feelings. :nopity:

consequently, i'm going to be taking a more cautious approach to untested technologies in the future, starting right now as a matter of fact.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. rofl
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 08:10 PM by enki23
as one who disagrees on the matter of radiation hormesis, i don't think i've ever called you a paid shill for halliburton.

in any case, i think chuck has been reading too much sci fi lately.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. the new me says
one molecule of radiation will kill you!!


ahhhhh! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!



i accidently just ate a banana for breakfast


aaaaaaaaaa! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!


all that (natural, but still deadly) radioactive potassium is now inside my cells


eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh! aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh!


whatever am i going to do?

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
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Dayton Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Prince Charles needs
to appoitted to the role of head, the Dept of Science and Technology, Great Britin
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JustFiveMoreMinutes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Since you're well read on the subject...
.. just HOW SOON are self-replicating nanobots predicted to be on the scene?

or even nanorobots which make other nanobots..... ???
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
19.  a negative 3 billion (+/- 1 billion) years
some people call them "bacteria"
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JustFiveMoreMinutes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. LOL! So.. after 3 billion or so ...
.. years .. and human existence hasn't been wiped off the face of the earth....

why the immediate 'fearmongering' that humans can do what nature hasn't been able to? <tongue in cheek there>

It's my understanding there are MANY hurdles to manmade nanobots self-replicating or even replicating other nanobots in the near immediate future (50 - 100 years)... so the 'grey or green' goo that makes for good science fiction doesn't make for good science discussion in these early stages.

It's like arguing Human Cloning can create exact duplicates of people (error in itself) who can then replace living people and do bad mischief.. it's just not possible to replace a 40yo 'person' living today with a clone who will take 40 years to be 40... etc etc.

But again, science fiction is fun... fantasy is even more fun.. and science just takes the fun out of it. <sad face!>
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. actually, it's the other way around if you think about it
"nano"bacteria not wiped humans off the face of the earth - rather humans evolved in the presence of bacteria (indeed, bacteria facilitated the evolution of humans) and now humans - if they had their way - would wipe the bacteria off the face of the earth. what a bunch of dumbasses - btw, just did a search on "dumbass" and it's good to see that google is having a good day:



in the long run, tho, i'm betting on the bacteria - e.g., remind me again how many anti-biotics are still effective?
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
20. In spite of disagreeing with my good friend Treepig, who I very much
Edited on Wed Jul-14-04 09:04 PM by NNadir
respect, I don't think that there is all that much scary about nanotechnology.

Like all words derived from the word "technology" nanotechnology can have uses for positive purposes and negative purposes and will generate fearful reactions based on suppositions and imagining (rather than realities) of disaster.

Many nanotechnology devices occur naturally. The process of oxidative phosphorylation which takes place in the membranes of mitochondria, involves a "molecular motor" in which the enzyme ATP synthase rotates, driven in part by good old fashioned electrical fields. The process is critical to the synthesis of ATP on which all eucaryotic life, including every human being reading this, depends. You can look it up. In fact, you can actually see this molecular motor operating on line since in 1997, the Japanese scientists Yoshida and Hisabori were actually able to film the "motor" rotating. Note that the motor is not synthetic, you have many trillions of such motors operating in your mitochondria. In the first link you are actually looking at a microscopic film of the actual enzyme working.

http://www.res.titech.ac.jp/~seibutu/hisabori/fig2.mov

http://www.res.titech.ac.jp/~seibutu/index.html.


I grew up reading science fiction that predicted that if computers were made too powerful they would take over the world and enslave the human race. Of course, the incorporation of computers into every day life has not been a totally positive experience, but on the other hand, the worries and promise of "artificial intelligence" have not been quite what we worried about while watching "Hal" in the 1969 movie Kubrick, "2001".

Some of the areas of nanotechnology research involve some of the most fundamental unanswered questions in the human search for knowledge. Among these is the nature and origin of self-ordering systems, in particular, the nucleic acids, which are "molecular zippers" in some sense. I think that some of this work by Chemists like RM Ghadiri, and Julius Rebek, and polymath Stuart Kaufmann is some of the most important and exciting scientific work now underway in any laboratories anywhere in the world. On some level it addresses one of the most fundemental questions, "why do we exist, and how did we come into being?"

As for Prince Charles, he is in my mind one of the quintessential Luddites of the age, and represents the perfect example of why rather than reducing inheritance taxes to zero, we ought to raise them to 100%. This man is an unfortunate dilettante whose fame derives from the rather antiquated and silly notion that some people are born with intrinsic rights to resources for which they have done and contributed absolutely nothing.

Of course, it's not quite as bad as it used to be, of course. Charles useless cousin Nicholas II by virtue of his birth was accorded, deriving from no merit of his own, indeed in spite of his huge personal weaknesses, the absolute and total power that once resided in the Czardom of Russia. This unfortunate circumstance lead both indirectly and directly to some of the most abysmal and tragic events of the twentieth century, including arguably, the First World War, The Second World War, the Russian Civil War, the 1920-30 Russian famines, the dismemberment of whole Asian cultures and peoples, the enslavement and executions of millions upon millions of innocent people etc... (It is a measure of the depravity of the twenty first century, that Nicolas II is now being proposed as a candidate for religious sainthood.)

That this twit Charles doesn't bother to think before mouthing off on subjects about which he knows nothing demonstrates (and, yes, I know I am contradicting myself mildly here) that stupidity can be congenital.

(Edited repeatedly to correct poor wording, bad grammar, typos and ineffective use of language.)
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. whoa, is this the "say nice things about treepig" thread?
Edited on Fri Jul-16-04 04:05 PM by treepig
in any event i must say i much respect your attempts to engage/attempt to educate by using well thoughtout and scientifically sound arguments.

unfortunately, i've come to the conclusion that such efforts are largely wasted in this forum as many participants are not really interested in learning, merely in promoting their own pet views.

consequently, i've entered into a phase of posting trite banalities (i suspect the difference from before will be difficult for most to discern) mainly for my own entertainment. some would consider this to be an unnecessary waste of electrons - but i'm sticking to my theory that there is no such thing as a "waste of electrons" because there is only one electron in the universe, it is green, and it travels through time to facilitate occasions when it is simultaneously needed for two or more tasks


by the way, you mentioned rebek - just to be a name-dropper i'll point out he was once indirectly - in a rather convoluted way - responsible for me having to go to a (kosher) slaugherhouse. i've eaten quite a bit less meat and meat-related products thereafter.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-17-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Well we should have a "say nice things about Treepig" thread.
Actually, though, I'm going to disagree with you again about your comment, "i've come to the conclusion that such efforts are largely wasted in this forum as many participants are not really interested in learning, merely in promoting their own pet views."

It is true that our efforts are wasted on some people here, but I've had a number of emails over the years here and other websites telling me that I've succeeded in changing some minds, particularly on the subject of energy. People who write me thusly are maybe a little quieter than my religious antagonists, but they, and not my antagonists are my target.

As for my religious antagonists themselves, I am very happy for their presence. One of the most important writings in Western thought has to be Galileo's Dialogues which used the literary device of having a "Simplicio" who argued the religiously sanctioned Aristolean view of the universe, and two allies "Salviati" (representing Galileo himself) and "Sagredo," who argued from looking at reality. Of course I neither you nor I are Galileos, but we may serve the role of Sagredos or that nameless person who carried a banned copy of "The Dialogues" to England, where Newton could read it.

I consider myself a political and intellectual liberal in the tradition founded by men and women like Galileo, a tradition that requires above all an open mind that looks at things as they are, and not as our fears and fantasies countenance. On this site you represent the best of that same tradition, and I hope you will continue to write here seriously for those who matter.

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