Vegetarians (Caring About Animals)

[kwolf68]

I was going to post this in the other thread with the factory farming pics, but decided to toss it here.

I am at the point in my life where I have been making a lot of lifestyle decisions. I recently returned to college to pursue a M.S. in Genetics that would hopefully lead to mammal curation and genetic research on limited genetic species (cheetahs, elephant seals)...

I work for a non-profit conservation organization and am a Member of the Humane Society.

I understand the atrocities of factory farming and the direction our nation/world is going...it has become LESS compassionate than during the early 1990s after we saw so much abuse (ivory hunting, seal fur, whaling, valdez)...It appeared we were turning our world toward a more compassionate and humane world. NOW, hunting shows litter ESPN2, hunting is now on the rise, Liberal politicians actively promote their hunting prowess, factory farming continues unabated, animal rights activists are considere extreme, etc..

So I am not oblivious to any of this. Still, I eat meat. Every single time I sit down to eat meat I recognize immediately what it is. I then close my eyes and mind and continue to eat. WHY? Because I like the taste. YES, I am selfish. No question about that.

However, I am also interested in the vegetarian lifestyle. Knowing that everything I put into my mouth caused no suffering to any animal has to be a powerful feeling for someone who SAYS they are compassionate to animals.

Does anyone have any advice on things to try. Is it overly expensive? What are good dishes? Is there a “transition” one does to go from pork and beef to veggies? Where do you get your proteins? Just give me the entire skinny on being a vegetarian. Thanks.

[veganwitch]

1. www.veganoutreach.org

its vegan, obviously, but still full of good info

[roughsatori]

4. Thanks Veganwitch

I have been thinking of giving up milk and rennetless cheese for some time. I will bookmark that site. :)

[veganwitch]

5. adding more..

got a bit distracted from completing my other post.

for good info and community you might want to try www.vegsource.com. a bit of warning though: they can be a bit flaky, and full of themselves (the owners of the site) and some of the posters on the vegan board can get fanatical.(honey is bee-vomit!!! vegan-er-than-thou etc.) i got banned because the owner was being very rude to a new person that smoked (saying they were not vegan) and smokers were rude nasty people etc. and i called her out on it and got banned. apparently since they created the rules, they didnt have to follow them. however, they are very good for info (i lurk there sometimes) and they have a recipe board moderatorated by a women who could create a 5 course meal out of tinfoil and a snorkel.

also, some good cookbooks are how it all vegan, vegan vittles (i used this one about 75% of the time), table for two, instead of chicken instead of turkey, garden of vegan.

recipe sites
www.vegan-food.net
http://www.veganmania.com/
www.veganmeat.com yes veganmeat. its a site a guy created for omnis living/loving vegans and meals they could be eat and enjoy. he is omni, his partner is vegan.


get thee to a library!!! good books on vegan nutrition are the vegan sourcebook, the vegetarian way. etc. diet for a small planet.

good political/vegan issues are the mad cowboy, the sexual politics of meat, living amoung meat-eaters (i really suggest this one for new veggies, even old timers.) vegan: the new ethics of eat, diet for a new america (a bit dated as it was written in 1990), food revolution (by the same author as diet but written in 2001). if you are feeling philosophical you can read animal liberation by peter singer the book that started (again) the Animal Rights movement.

veg*nism gets expensive if you buy alot of prepackaged food. buying the basics and cooking for yourself will help bring down costs. buy bulk--beans, rice, flour, spices etc.--will do the same.

if you are going vegan, replacing cheese can be difficult at first. most vegan cheezes are an aquired taste. i just got used to going without. however tofutti makes excellent better than cream cheeze (non dairy completely vegan) and sour supreme (sour cream). try several soymilks until you find one you like. i like soy dream but silk is also good. my friend jarmanese likes westsoy. soy ice cream is wonderful--any and all are good.

ive been vegan for 3 years now and im completely used to it. if you have any more questions now or later, just message me.

[arissa]

2. Hi kwolf68

Thanks for this thread, it took a lot of courage to say what you did, and believe me, despite your worries now, you're already well on your way to a cruelty-free lifestyle just by being able to ask these questions. First let me tell you about me, and then I'll try and answer your questions...

I've been a vegetarian for over 2 years and a vegan for several months. I have a background in nutrition and dietary supplements, and it is part of my job to be able to answer questions regarding nutrition and diet.

"Is it overly expensive?"

This is a tricky question because it all depends on what you choose to eat as a vegetarian. Technically speaking, meat is far more expensive than vegetarian alternatives like beans and rice, and meat has always been a staple of affluent and wealthy societies, whereas poorer societies traditionally cannot afford it.

In modern western society though, with the fast food value meals and cheap, processed, junk meat - the lines get blurry. For example, the meat that people find cheaper than vegetarian alternatives is of such horrible quality that it should hardly be considered edible in my opinion. Did you know the average pound of ground beef has been dead for over one year and has been processed so many times it contains meat from up to 150 different cows?

Additionally, junk food is cheap - hamburger helper, campbells soup, tv dinners - these processed, nutritionally empty, high calorie junk foods are cheap, yes.

So generally, people who turn to vegetarianism are also somewhat interested in improving their dietary habits and healthfulness, therefore a lot of companies that make vegetarian fare are more expensive than junk food because they make the food healthier.

However, with the rising popularity of vegetarianism, some mainstream companies are making junk-vegetarian food, such as Morningstar Farms, and other new tv-dinner companies. These cheaper vegetarian foods are not significantly more expensive than there meaty counterparts in the tv dinner aisle.

Vegetarian staples like beans and rice, tofu and veggies are much cheaper than meat. Fancy meat-imitation products are usually MORE expensive than meat, but do WONDERS for meat cravings, especially in beginner vegetarians. Everything else falls somewhere in the middle.

"Is there a “transition” one does to go from pork and beef to veggies?"

That all depends on what you are comfortable with. I know some folk who changed overnight, and others who changed over month-long periods. Myself, I went one week at a time, cutting out one meat source every week and replacing it with lots of meat imitations until I was a vegetarian. I then stayed an ovo-lacto-vegetarian (vegetarian who eats eggs and dairy) for awhile until I felt fully comfortable with becoming a vegan.

Whatever you feel most comfortable with is what you should do and don't let any elitists pressure you into moving faster than you're comfortable with. One thing you should do, however, is make up your mind once and for all before you do it. That way no matter if you do it overnight or over 6 months, you have a goal in mind and you're sure that you want to reach that goal. With that surety, you'll have more strength to get through the initial cravings.

"Where do you get your proteins?"

This is an easy one. Proteins are easy to get, especially if you're an ovo-lacto-vegetarian first - just eat eggs. Additionally, all meat-imitation products (which I highly recommend using, especially at first) are high in protein. Beans and rice are a complete protein. Any product containing soy (tofu, soymilk, lots of processed dishes, miso) contain a complete protein.

The skinny is that western society is a little too obsessed with protein. People in poorer cultures get along fine with a fraction of the protein we consume. Further, too much protein is hard on your body and can lead to kidney problems, calcium depletion, and liver disease.

To answer your final questions and give you the skinny, here's several things that I would advise and that I've found are helpful.

a) Use lots of meat imitation products the first several months. Speaking as someone who LOVED (and still craves) meat, these products saved me. They're much more realistic than you might expect. Morningstar Farms makes GREAT, cheap, imitation meat products. Higher quality products that aren't as "junky" as Morningstar Farms that you can move onto later, or try alongside Morningstar Farms, are Boca (makes everything from imitation chicken to burgers to sausages etc), Quorn (imitation chicken - best out there IMHO), Tofurky (imitation turkey products, try their deli slices!), Yves (imitation deli meats and a few others), Nates (imitation meatballs and chicken nuggets), Health is Wealth (careful, some of their products are made with meat, but they also make good imitation chicken patties and buffalo wings) and dozens of others.

b) Find a local healthfood store in your area. Don't trust the grocery store!! Get a book on transitioning to vegetarianism from the health food store - a good one is "Becoming Vegetarian." It contains nutrition information, recipes, tips, tricks, philosophy, etc.

c) Slowly accustom yourself to reading labels. This part sucks. You'll be amazed at what crap actually has meat products in it once you learn all the codewords. PETA (www.peta.org) has a good list on their website of ingredients that are from meat, but it can also be good to double-check items on this list if you're not sure. Sometimes PETA lists things that aren't necessarily from animals, such as lecithin, which CAN come from pigs' stomachs, but is far more common and cheaper from soy and is rarely sourced from pigs.

d) Peer support is a great tool to encourage you. Find a nearby vegetarian or animal rights group to get together with and find support in times of weakness.

e) You'll have cravings. I still do, actually. But I still crave cigarettes, but I don't smoke. I still crave other things that I've quit, but I know better than to give in. Be strong, the cravings will die down. You're quitting an addiction - our addiction to animal products is pervasive and completely deserves the classification as addiction. Understand this and understand it won't be a walk in the park, but if you persevere, and do it correctly, not only will you feel far better physically (I could go on for hours about how my physical health improved) but you'll feel better mentally and emotionally as you walk down the VERY rewarding path towards a completely cruelty free lifestyle.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you have anymore questions!

[kwolf68]

11. Thanks arrisa

I work with many vegans and they would be more than happy to-as you have-give me any advice or assistance.

I have been thinking about this for a long time. However, I am a self-centered SOB sometimes (perfect Republican) and enjoy eating these meats.

STILL...Principles are what defines me...I could do just fine eating Cheese Enchilladas instead of beef at the Tex-Mex Restaraunt.

And if you ever read Matthew Sculley's book called "Dominion", you will find there are farms (very few) that raise livestock in humane conditions. If I knew everything I ate came from places like this I'd probably not think about changing.

The health factor is also an issue. Few vegans have clogged arteries. Still, its a tough sell.

I will continue to look and educate myself on these things. My wife actually does the cooking and while she's moderate...shes also a Texas girl, ya know...people who have their meals in the front yard grazing type.

Thanks for the great post and I will look it over again and figure out the next course of action.

[midnight armadillo]

12. About protein...

The skinny is that western society is a little too obsessed with protein. People in poorer cultures get along fine with a fraction of the protein we consume. Further, too much protein is hard on your body and can lead to kidney problems, calcium depletion, and liver disease.

Too much protein consumption is only an issue for those with kidney disease. It does not lead to liver disease and only in massive quantities is it involved in calcium depletion - and then that can be avoided by calcium supplementation.

Protein deficiency is a big problem in many parts of the world. Some vegan sections of India come to mind, but I can't recall the reference. Your protein needs depend upon your lifestyle. If you're involved in a lot of weight training (which is a big factor in overall health) you need quite a bit more protein than a couch potato and more than if you're focused on cardio exercise. Since there's only so much rice & beans one can eat, worries about protein intake for athletes can be solved through the various vegan protein concentrates (soy, rice, whatnot).

One of the vitamin B's is not provided in sufficient quantity by a vegan diet. B12?

To the original poster: there are sources of cruelty-free meat, dairy, and eggs. They are more expensive than factory-farmed meat, so switching to those will naturally increase your veggie consumption :-) The last chapter of "Fast Food Nation" talks about one such farm that does mail order business.
The best way to afford all those green growing things is to grow it yourself. As soon as I am out of my apartment and own a wee patch of land it'll be sprouting with all sorts of good stuff. Check out permaculture.

[kwolf68]

13. More good advice

I can find ways to get the required proteins and I have talked about a garden before, but I dont know if we could have a garden where we will be living.

I have .4 acres of land in Hagerstown, Maryland. I'll think about putting a garden somewhere in there.

I also looked up some stuff and found LightLife.com, which has plenty of good info vegatarianism. I have to do some grocery shopping this week (I am living alone until we move into our house) and will see about AT LEAST eating more veggies.

Oh yea...I LOVE rice and Beans. Don't know if I could eat it 7 days a week, but I do like it. Put some gravy or low fat magerine on rice...And there all all kinds of beans out there...although they make you fart. :nuke:

[arissa]

15. Protein

"Too much protein consumption is only an issue for those with kidney disease."

Basic physiology tells us that excess protein consumption is hard on the kidneys, whether or not the person already has kidney disease.

"It does not lead to liver disease"

It CAN lead to liver disease. Your liver is responsible for producing the bile that is required in large amounts to break down proteins and fats. The more of these you eat, the more your liver has to work. Further, protein digestion creates amonia as a by-product, which your liver has to work to detoxify, adding further stress to your liver when you consume more protein. These factors can lead to liver disease over time, especially if the person doesn't watch other things they do that can be damaging to the liver.

"only in massive quantities is it involved in calcium depletion - and then that can be avoided by calcium supplementation."

This is a common, and untrue, myth, and it can also be very dangerous. Calcium works in what is called your calcium balance. Your body doesn't just absorb and then utilize calcium, your body has a ratio of calcium absorbed to calcium excreted in your urine. Your body is constantly taking in and urinating out calcium. There are limits to this ratio, so once you get a certain amount of calcium in your system, additional supplementation is worthless and is a waste of money, since you're literally just pissing it out later.

Protein is a main factor in upsetting your calcium balance, in that more protein intake causes your body to excrete more calcium. It does not take "massive quantities" to upset your balance, and like I said, supplementation can only go so far and won't do much good if the ratio is out of whack anyway.

[roughsatori]

3. I stopped in one morning 25 years ago

My mother was frying my favorite bacon and I thought to myself if that pig was in front of me to kill to eat, I would not kill it. I decided that if I thought that was wrong I should not leave the killing to other people and that I would not eat fish, meat or chicken again unless I killed it myself. I never did. I was young but had no repercussions. I come from a family of fisherman and hunters, so I had to adapt, I still went out with them when they fished--but I brought a book and did not fish. (Vegetarians can still drink beer).

A book that helped me since none of my family was vegetarian was "Diet for a small Planet" which gives a few good reasons for vegetarianism as well as a simple way of understanding how to combine proteins, and "Recipes for a Small Planet" which has great tasting ideas.

The phony soy meats tend to be more expensive than real meats. Some people like them because they miss the taste. But if you like to cook it can be cheap, healthy and delicious to go vegetarian.

Try it and Good Luck.

[FireHeart]

6. It's interesting that you mention this...

A few nights ago, I was engaged in a conversation with an individual who eats meat, yet also feels very guilty about it.

So I asked a question. If they developed, say--a mushroom, that tasted like a good cut of steak (I offered other choices, too) would you STOP eating animal meat and stick to the alternative...

He said no.

Go figure.

[usrbs]

7. It'sot that hard.

I was like you when I became a vegetarian, and I can say that despite my love for meat it wasn't too hard, and the "sacrifice" was well worth getting rid of the discomfort I felt eating sentinent beings, and integrating my eating habits with my beliefs.

Anyway, nowadays it's so easy, with the soy burgers and the protein crumbles and the ersatz chicken wings. Most restaurants have at least one or two vegatarian entries, even places like the Ground Round (portobello sandwiches).

It is more expensive, especially when you convert to cage-free eggs, and organic milk, but the organic eggs are much better for you anyway, and the conditions for egg producing chickens are too cruel for words.

Why don't you start out gradually, first eliminating meat and getting rid of fish only when and if you feel ready.

[gkdmaths]

8. I was a vegetarian for years.

I decided to go back to school, and began to frequent the academic journals once more (as a student the databases are free).

A doc of mine is the author of a study trying to quantify the ability of states to localize their food systems....

insert Introduction, Materials and Methods, Discussion...

The (multi) year study concluded that the human body requires proteins that are not produced by plants. Also, that a few necessary micro- and macro-nutrients are also more available from animal sources than from phytosources (Fe, Ca).

for instance, you can eat the amount of red meat the study recommends (3 oz per week) and gain the same Ca and Fe supply that eating 4 cups of blanced spinach a day.

Skipping to the end, it was decided that the human body requires 3-6 oz of red meat a week. That's not unreasonable, nor is it unsustainable.

In the longrun, these are personal decisions. Today, though, I feel much healthier that I get my protien from some form other than choking down 5 pounds of kale or soy.

EDIT: I am trying to source the article. If I have access, I'll post the pdf for viewing, otherwise I'll just source it normally.

[arissa]

9. Nonsense

While there's no shortage of "studies" and "evidence" out on the internet about how meat and dairy are "necessary" for proper health, nearly all of these are funded either directly or indirectly by meat industry interests or those who are bought out by meat industry interests.

The main body of scientific evidence supported by everyone from the governments of all industrialized countries to nearly all independent mainstream scientists and accepted as simply true based on overwhelming scientific evidence generated over 60 years of studies, is that not only is meat NOT required, but vegetarians and vegans are healthier, have less risk of cancer, heart disease, and have a longer lifespan.

All essential amino acids required to make protein by your body are found in plants. All non-essential amino acids required to make protein by your body are produced by your body on it's own. There are no vitamins or minerals that exist in meat/dairy, that your body needs, that don't also exist in plants.

Essentially, what you say is nonsense, and widely accepted scientific fact by both medical doctors, scientists and anyone willing to take an unbiased look at the evidence knows that the notion that you need meat to be healthy is not even slightly backed up by fact. Quite the contrary, my friend. But I don't expect to convince you, nor do I want to - this post is just for the benefit of those who may be misled by irresponsible "studies" that are designed to purposefully contradict what is obvious scientific fact backed up by decades of evidence.

[gkdmaths]

10. you're probably right.

The Monstanto/Cargill/IBP/MacDonald's/WalMart-sponsored study to which I was referring must be wrong because it was peer reviewed by Johnson & Johnson, Elmers Glue, Foster Farms, the Bush Administration and published in the Journal of Escherichia coli O157:H7.

[arissa]

14. I still haven't seen a link or any corroborating info

to this mystery study that overturns 60 years of scientific evidence in one fell swoop, all I have to go on is your word, and for reasons explained below, I'm a little skeptical here...

The study makes absolutely no sense since you seem to be saying that it concludes you need to eat MEAT to get this alleged mystery protein. This makes little sense considering that egg and whey (from dairy) are far superior animal proteins compared to meat. Go into a healthfood store, go to the protein/body building aisle. You'll find whey protein, soy protein and egg protein - but no meat protein. And my buddy, who has a masters in chemistry and has been a body builder for 15 years, won't use anything other than whey protein. When he needs a protein boost (and he knows a few things about this type of thing) he doesn't turn to a steak, he turns to eggs and whey.

So any study proclaiming that an ovo-lacto-vegetarian, who eats eggs and dairy, would not be getting proper protein is so far in the dark ages it'd hardly be worth refuting except for the damage such insane myths can cause.

Finally, as for your "choking down kale and soy" for protein, what were you thinking? Kale is a rather poor source of protein, so I really don't know why you'd be "choking it down" to get your protein as a vegetarian rather than eating an egg, or maybe some beans and rice, unless you just don't know your nutrition. And as for "choking down soy," soy is usually processed INTO foods that are made to taste and feel like other foods. Were you just eating soybeans plain? Cuz when I get my soy, it's usually added as an ingredient in something else altogether, which means I never have to "choke it down" even though I'm not fond of plain soybeans myself. So seriously, what's the deal here?

[gkdmaths]

16. ultimately,

this discussion is very unimportant.

Keep looking for the Truth, though :thumbsup: