Hello everyone, I'm wondering if I could get some advice from time to time

[navarth]

I have a brother-in-law and father-in-law that suffer from terminal republicanism. Both are global warming deniers. Occasionally I could use help getting ammo to argue back, and this forum seems like an excellent support system.

Is this kind of help something I might get in this forum? I'm not lazy, I just have limited time and I learn a lot from these discussions as well.

[nichomachus]

1. You can't use reason

with someone who didn't arrive at their position through reason.

You're wasting your breath and time.

Honest.

No matter what facts you throw at them, they will either deny them, change the subject, or just start screaming something like "Al Gore rides in airplanes."

Take the time you waste arguing with them and learn Chinese. It may help you get a job when China becomes the world's dominant economic power -- now scheduled for 2015, although it could come earlier.

[Night_Nurse]

7. yes..

but he's not wasting time surfing around here if he is learning from it himself :-)

[nichomachus]

8. Agreed

just don't try to convert "true believers."

[Night_Nurse]

17. No, that's an exercise in stress and futility. nt.

[peace13]

2. My best advice is ...don't argue with insanity.

My mother has terminal rethuglicism and I try my hardest to avoid any conversations about the subject. Your best bet is to encourage these folks to conserve for the sake of their pocketbooks and help them learn to recycle. This will bring about the same changes needed to fight global warming whether they think that it is real or not. Good luck. peace, Kim

[phantom power]

3. I recommend realclimate.org

They publish a lot of good discussions on climate change, some of which fall into the "how to debunk climate change denial" category.

[whistle]

4. If your in-laws are on life-support systems, then pull the plug...

...otherwise arging with such boneheads is a complete waste of breath. Just smile, wear the mast and let events prove you are right when every republican/right-wing nut-job/neo-conservative gets thrown out of office this November. Then you can simply take your bow :kick:

[crikkett]

5. Patronizing dismissal

never works for me, no matter how often I try it.

The best thing to do is to stay out of those discussions. Sad but true. Wait for them to ask (non-baiting) questions and be happy that you have 200,000 DU members who think more or less the way you do.

[Night_Nurse]

6. You'll find..

a ton of information here, just surf around and read. I've been doing that for years, and finally registered so I could join in on the discussions. It's very cool.

I'm surrounded by the terminal Repubs myself, and as "armed" as I am, it's not easy - if not impossible - to "un-Hannitize" them. It's MSM brainwashing; my own mother is a victim (she's 83, and yet still sharp, she takes the word of the MSM as gospel) and when I talk to her... :banghead:

[MercutioATC]

9. Actually, you CAN use reason...you just have to keep the argument simple.

1) Warming ice turns it into water.

2) More water results in a rise in sea level.

3) A great deal of our population and infrastructure is based on coastlines and near sea level.

Therefore, it would not be in our best interest for sea levels to rise appreciably.


THAT SAID:

There are only three possibilities:

1) This is a natural trend and we have no effect on it.

2) This is a natural trend and we are contributing to it.

3) This is an entirely manmade problem.

Therefore, unless we can definitively prove that we have no effect, it would be in our best interest to reduce our possible or probable contribution to the warming trend.


And, if we don't, some species will die off. Some will thrive.

Our species, however, will not benefit.

If you make it more of a logical presentation than a crusade, more people listen.

[navarth]

11. this is fairly spoken, and ties into my current problem.

what they're claiming is (2) this is a natural trend and we are contributing to it.

Does anyone here agree/disagree about it being a natural trend? I've heard that the last 10 years are the hottest on record.

[MercutioATC]

12. My personal belief is that it's a natural trend to which we're contributing.

But, like I said, that's enough to warrant changing our ways...not for the "planet", for our own benefit.

[Kali]

14. "Our species, however, will not benefit."

Not necessarily true. Wealthy mobile people will likely benefit - like they always do.

[MercutioATC]

16. Wealthy people, regardless of mobility, own most of that valuable shoreline.

Put Manhattan under water and the poor and wealthy alike would lose.

[Kali]

19. Manhatten shoreline owners aren't the only wealthy folks in the world.

Just saying some of our species will benefit, you can bet on it.

[MercutioATC]

20. Among them, the owners of the NEW oceanfront property...

[Kali]

21. we.ve been waiting for a beach in AZ since the Gadsden purchase

got screwed up. Guess if we are going to run out of drinking water we ought to at least get some coastline:rofl:

[MercutioATC]

22. I'm at 709'...I'll never have beachfront property.

...nor will I have to worry about being flooded.

[navarth]

10. thank you all

I really appreciate the realclimate.org link.

I'm afraid it's not in my makeup to just declare them insane and stay out of the discussion, although I can relate to the feeling. But they are well educated, articulate people and not completely guilty of intellectual dishonesty, as one might think.

AND I really believe that we need to be having this argument, if you know what I mean. It's a bit like the quote from Burke (?) that says all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. I feel that these attitudes have to be confronted. Maybe I'm stupid for that, forgive me. The only time I will drop the subject with people is when it seems like feelings are getting hurt. At that point, of course, nothing can be done to penetrate someone's skull with some light, all the defensive systems are on alert (so to speak).

With everyone's permission, I will come to this forum with questions from time to time, thanks very much for your kind attention.

[nichomachus]

13. Good luck to you with that --

Hope it works. I have found from years of experience with my Rush-O'Reilly-Fox addicted family that I simply stick to "hello" and "goodbye." Almost any other topic gets them on a right-wing rant.

[mikita]

24. I have family members that I could describe as you did....

I sent them the following 10 minute video (actually an earlier version ... this one is better, IMO).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1PPY6ElKZM

I did not get any response from them, but they no longer bait me. Who knows? Maybe it helped :shrug:

Can't hurt, and I understand your need to do *something*, even if you feel like Sisyphus.

Good luck!
Mikita

[crikkett]

25. Come to think of it I got someone to see through their red-colored glasses by meeting them halfway

It went something along the lines of,

"ok so forget the global warming thing. Neither you nor I can prove or disprove it.

Don't you agree that this pollution is a problem? And that less pollution would be better for everyone, in the face of so much evidence that pollution causes food shortages and long-term health care problems that most people can't afford?"

(he did)

"Wouldn't it be cheaper for everyone if we just cleaned up pollution caused by industry and travel using methods we already know work, so that our children can be healthier?"

(yes)

"So let's do it"

(okay)

[hunter]

15. Time wounds all heals...

They probably won't get it until they themselves get hit by the train. And even then some of them will call it "An Act of God."

[nichomachus]

18. Not necessarily

Not with my family anyway. They find a way to blame any misfortune on "the liberals."

[JohnWxy]

23. I'm sorry to say this but I think there is no hope for them. They are brain dead already.

[stuntcat]

26. what some of them said^, they made up their minds and cannot change now

look at this site though, it brings up all the dummies arguments and why they're wrong-
http://climlead.uoregon.edu/publicationspress/Q&A%20for%20Climate%20Skeptics.pdf

But you're talking to people who can't imagine what pumping tons of trash into the thin atmosphere everyday could mean.. also they've probably heard other know-it-all's arguments so many times they can't believe anything else.
It brings me shame that we can't grasp science this simple. We're the country with the most power and money and potential :rofl:

[kristopher]

27. This might help understand what you are really dealing with

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/simple_framing

The above link actually isn't related to climate change per se, the problem lies with the way they've been trained to integrate new information.

This is on climate:
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/climate


If you read the links above and think it is helpful, you might want to download Lakoff's pamphlet here:
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/thinkingpoints

Chapter 8
THE ART OF ARGUMENTS
Let’s see how it all fits together: The moral worldviews, visions, values, principles,
frames, and language all come together in political arguments. As we look at arguments,
we find certain characteristics common to all effective and successful arguments:
• They have moral premises, that is, they are about what is right.
• They use versions of contested values taken from a particular moral worldview.
• They have an implicit or explicit narrative structure, i.e., they all tell stories
with heroes, villains, victims, common themes, etc.
• They also serve as counterarguments: They undermine arguments on the other
side.
• They have issue-defining frames that set up the problem and the solution.
• They use commonplace frames—frames known so widely that they resonate
immediately, whether true or not.
• They use language with surface frames that evoke deeper frames.
None of this should be surprising. Rhetoricians have long been aware of such details. But
it is important that you know how all this works so you can use the knowledge....

[navarth]

28. wow, that's pretty substantial. thanks very much

that will take some time to read and absorb....time is something that is in very short supply, but I'll get through them. thanks.