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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:21 AM
Original message
Georgia Power to pay $6.4 billion for (share in) new nuclear reactors
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/stories/2008/05/07/nukeprice_0508.html

Georgia Power will pay approximately $6.4 billion to Westinghouse Electric to build its share of two proposed 1,100-megawatt nuclear reactors at the utility's Vogtle plant south of Augusta, the utility said Wednesday.

If approved, the plants promise customers higher power bills starting in 2018 . Customers would pay an additional $12 a month on a typical 1,000 kilowatt-hour bill, the company said. That amount is expected to decline over time, the company said.

The $6.4 billion projection represents Georgia Power's 45.7 percent ownership of Vogtle. The plant's other co-owners — Oglethorpe Power, Municipal Electric Authority of Georgia and Dalton Utilities — will also pay for their part of the project. The other co-owners are currently negotiating how much they will each pay Westinghouse.

Georgia Power officials said they did not want to speculate on the total price tag because of a number of variables.

<more>
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'll be long gone by the time those bills arrive.
The Southern Company is a dark and weird operation.

I'll be glad to have them far, far away.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. At every juncture, Georgia makes the wrong moves.
I would move out now but can't sell my Atlanta house.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. expensive mistake!
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. I wonder how many roof top solar units 6.4 billion would buy?
Edited on Sat May-10-08 12:14 AM by losthills
A brazillion?
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, let's see...
According to solarbuzz's current module price, they could have got 1.33 GW of PV, as opposed to 1GW of nuclear.

Which sounds great, until you allow for PVs 26% loading: In terms of energy, they're getting ~2½ times more by taking this route, and they don't need to invent any storage.

I now await your claim that mathematics is a figment of Dick Cheney's imagination.
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FREEWILL56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Let's not forget the extra costs for disposing of nuclear wastes and refueling.
Nuclear-The easy terrorist target.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Very true
Better add $3 billion for that.

Better add another $6.4 billion to the PV version as well, as I didn't include installation costs or related electrical equipment which generally doubles the price.
And another $6.4 billion for replacement panels, since the AP1000s have a 60-year lifetime and the PV modules don't.
Plus, of course, whatever it will cost to fit the replacements and cart off the old panels. Another 6.4 billion?




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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Your not forgetting that nuclear power requires fuel, are you?
You weouldn't forget the billions spent on mining and enriching uranium and dealing with the waste, would you?

Yea, I guess you would....
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. So, you didn't read Freewill's post?
:eyes:
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You answered his post withyour usual bullshit...
ie: You didn't answer it.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Sigh
http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/2005/ElecCost.pdf">Here is the data on fuelling, decommissioning and disposal costs: You'll notice I added half a billion to stay on the safe side. Grab a calculator and and knock yourself out.

Warning for the hard of thinking: This document contains long words and numbers.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I don't know who you you think you're kidding....
But we all know that Solar Power is free after the initial installation.

Once a nuclear power plant is built, the carbon costs, the monetary costs, the environmental costs, the waste disposal costs and the health care costs and funeral costs are just beginning.

Why would anyone in their right mind give you their hard earned money for more of this snake oil, when it's already making us sick?
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Only if you stick the panels in a landfill when your done
If you recycle them, that's more cost
If you want any sort of back-up, that's more cost.
If that backup needs recycling, that's more cost.

But yeah, apart from those costs (and the $10/watt PV costs once you've installed it) it's totally free!

And of course, it's never made from coal or freshly charred forest, in fact involves no CO2 at all and the other waste is always carefully managed.
Or something.

Go on, spool off another "it's all propaganda!" piece, stick your fingers back in your ears and go back to sleep.

It doesn't actually change anything when you do that, you know.

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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Make one more post so you can delude yourself
that you "won..."

There's nothing here for me to bother responding to.

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The nuke plant won't come online for 10 years, PV will be lot cheaper then
They could put the money in the bank for ten years and then buy the PV at much lower prices.
Also the risk of default on the nuke is "very high—well above 50 percent" so they're gambling $6.4B on a coin flip,
heads they have a nuke plant, tails they have an empty cooling tower.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, it might be.
Or it might have started going up again (wouldn't be the first time). There might well really cheap thin-film, but it doesn't have the lifetime of polysillicon, so you'd have to go round the cycle more times. And if these guys want 4 years to install 50MW, you could argue it would over a century to get the solar built (so I guess waiting 10 years wouldn't make much difference).

Most of the time - in both cases - is down to regulatory paperwork. That's fixable.

Georgia power aren't taking a loan, AFAIK, so the chances of defaulting on it should be pretty low.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. The quoted price doesn't include other things as well
Interest on the financing (it ISN'T going to be "cash"), return on investment to shareholders, AND O&M (operating and maintenance) costs.

Of course, the interest will almost certainly be at a preferred (subsidized) rate, even so, it will probably triple the costs. That would be the same for any generation facility, it isn't exclusive to nuclear.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. $6.4 billion may be wishful thinking - FPL's AP1000 will cost $12-17 billion...
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. You noticed that's for two AP1000s, right?
C'mon Jpak, I know math isn't your strong point but you should be able to count up to 2 without fucking up.
;)

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. umm....GP has a 45.7% percent share (see the OP) in two AP1000s at Vogtle
2 x $12-17 billion x 0.457 = :evilgrin:
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. ummm...
Building two new reactors at Turkey Point... the cost for building the two units ranges from $12.1 billion to $17.8 billion for Westinghouse's AP1000,... (Plus extending the island)

I'd leave off 2x12x0.457 and 2x17x0.457 until you can cope with two=2. Then we can advance to 0.457x12 and 0.457x17, but very slowly.

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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. 6.4 billion dollars would buy solar panels for 32,000 homes.
A standard rooftop pv system to power a regular tract house with air conditioning runs around $20,000 dollars-- installed.

These systems are generally warranted for 20 years, but are expected to last indefinately. They may lose some capacity over time, so you might have to add a panel after 20 years or so, but you won't have to worry about replacing the system.

That, to me, would represent a reasonable investment in our country's energy future. Skip the nuke and all the problems that go with it, and take 32,000 homes off the grid.

Imagine how much better off we all we be if we spent ALL the money that is spent on nuclear power in this way.

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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Nuclear energy was never affordable
best I remember we've been subsidizing that industry since day one. Saying there is nothing else to save us today in our quest to lower co2 levels world wide is a cop out in my opinion.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Instead, they decided to power 475,000 homes
Are you volunteering to be one of the 443,000 without power?
Or are you offering to stump up the remaining 88.6 billion dollars out of loose change?

Didn't think so.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. When are they throwing the switch?
Oh, uh, in about twenty years...

How are they going to power those homes in the meantime?
Oh, uh, well, coal...

What are they going to do when the uranium runs out?
Oh, uh, gee, we don't know.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Oh dear.
When are they throwing the switch?
Oh, uh, in about twenty years...

Sigh. 2016 is not 20 years away, and nor is 2017. Welcome to the 21st century, please line up for the "Counting on Your Fingers 101" short bus behind Jpak. You can't miss him, he's the dude from Maine with a Greenpeace T-shirt still trying to work out if he's got more arses than elbows.

How are they going to power those homes in the meantime?
Largely coal, although I note they get 25% from nuclear already. Feel free to tell us what percentage they get from solar (Hint: it's a really round number).

It has been said before, and it will be said again: No one is claiming nuclear is perfect, and it doesn't have to be - It just have to be better than any of the alternatives. The same goes for solar, geothermal, the hydros, wind, biomass, and sitting around with your thumb up your arse waiting for something better to turn up. So feel free to convince me they are better for Georgia, but you're not even close so far.

Meanwhile, I await your ingenious plan to deploy ninety billion dollars worth of PV to Georgia within 9 years. For an encore, tell me how your going to power the whole state with it, and when.

What are they going to do when the uranium runs out?
Well, let's see, there's 100 trillion tons in total, including about 10 billion tons in the ocean, and a few million tons is normal mines. So yeah, in a few millennia we'll have to look at that. Hey, maybe we'll have cheap solar by then?

Right. Since you are as predictable as a metronome, here's my reply to your forthcoming reply, which will save everyone's bandwidth:

Reality is not defined by your beliefs. There are lots of people who don't believe in evolution, but it doesn't stop it from being true. There are quite a few people who think Bush is a good president, but that doesn't make it true, and that you don't believe something doesn't make it untrue. If you want to believe nuclear power is worse than global warming, or or the universe is 6000 years old, or that Saddam had WMDs, that's up to you. I'm sure you can find lots of rhetoric to support your beliefs.

But you won't find many facts. Not that you give a shit - you're already on record as claiming facts are irrelevant - But feel to plow on, deny that "amidoxime" is even a word, and dig that hole a little deeper. It's a fun gig to watch.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Oh cool, the "uranium from sea water" riff...
I love that one!

And the "we haven't been implementing solar so far, and that proves it's insignificant."
I love that one, too!

And anyone who can't see that NUCLEAR POWER IS BETTER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE!!! (BECAUSE WE SAY IT IS!!!) is just ignorant and doesn't understand science.

And more insults against the evil Greenpeace....

Classic shit. Timeless schtick. Vaudeville at it's best. But hey, vaudeville went out of style because it's, well, booooring....

The fact remains that once a solar system is installed, the carbon costs stop.
The environmental costs stop.
The monetary costs stop.
The pollution stops.

Once you build the reactor, all those costs BEGIN.
And then you then the costs of dealing with radioactive waste and health care kick in.

But "nuclear power is better than everything else??"
Sorry, no sale.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. lol. Thanks, tik-tok. nt
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Cautionary Note Regarding Forward-Looking Statements
This is the disclaimer at the end of a yahoobiz article on the deal. I've never seen one quite this long and detailed before.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080507/clw110.html?.v=42

Cautionary Note Regarding Forward-Looking Statements:

Certain information contained in this release is forward-looking information based on current expectations and plans that involve risks and uncertainties. Forward-looking information includes, among other things, statements concerning the timing of various regulatory and other actions, plans and cost estimates for new generation resources for Georgia Power, and demand for electricity. Southern Company and Georgia Power caution that there are certain factors that can cause actual results to differ materially from the forward-looking information that has been provided. The reader is cautioned not to put undue reliance on this forward-looking information, which is not a guarantee of future performance and is subject to a number of uncertainties and other factors, many of which are outside the control of Southern Company and Georgia Power; accordingly, there can be no assurance that such suggested results will be realized. The following factors, in addition to those discussed in the Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended Dec. 31, 2007 of Southern Company and Georgia Power, and subsequent securities filings, could cause results to differ materially from management expectations as suggested by such forward-looking information: the impact of recent and future federal and state regulatory change, including legislative and regulatory initiatives regarding deregulation and restructuring of the electric utility industry, implementation of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, environmental laws including regulation of water quality and emissions of sulfur, nitrogen, mercury, carbon, soot or particulate matter and other substances, and also changes in tax and other laws and regulations to which Southern Company, Georgia Power and any of their subsidiaries are subject, as well as changes in application of existing laws and regulations; current and future litigation, regulatory investigations, proceedings or inquiries, including the pending EPA civil actions against certain Southern Company subsidiaries, FERC matters, IRS audits and Mirant-related matters; the effects, extent and timing of the entry of additional competition in the markets in which Southern Company's or Georgia Power's subsidiaries operate; variations in demand for electricity, including those relating to weather, the general economy, population and business growth (and declines), and the effects of energy conservation measures; available sources and costs of fuel; effects of inflation; ability to control costs; advances in technology; state and federal rate regulations and the impact of pending and future rate cases and negotiations, including rate actions relating to fuel and storm restoration cost recovery; regulatory approvals related to the potential Plant Vogtle expansion, including Georgia Public Service Commission and Nuclear Regulatory Commission approvals; potential business strategies, including acquisitions or dispositions of assets or businesses, which cannot be assured to be completed or beneficial to Southern Company, Georgia Power, or any of their subsidiaries; the ability of counterparties of Southern Company or Georgia Power to make payments as and when due and to perform as required; the ability to obtain new short- and long-term contracts with neighboring utilities; the direct or indirect effect on Southern Company's or Georgia Power's business resulting from terrorist incidents and the threat of terrorist incidents; interest rate fluctuations and financial market conditions and the results of financing efforts, including Southern Company's, Georgia Power's, and any of their subsidiaries' credit ratings; the ability of Southern Company, Georgia Power, and any of their subsidiaries to obtain additional generating capacity at competitive prices; catastrophic events such as fires, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, droughts, pandemic health events such as an avian influenza or other similar occurrences; the direct or indirect effects on Southern Company's or Georgia Power's business resulting from incidents similar to the August 2003 power outage in the Northeast; and the effect of accounting pronouncements issued periodically by standard- setting bodies. Southern Company and Georgia Power expressly disclaim any obligation to update any forward-looking information.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's odd
It's only a SEC disclaimer: It's longer than some, but shorter than others.

I would have thought somebody who bangs on at great length about studying economics would have seen quite a few of them.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Really?
Perhaps your confusion (at least in part) resides in the mistaken belief that economics is the same as business.

I used to follow the stock market a bit maybe twenty years ago and consequently often read disclaimers then, but this one seemed a lot longer than the ones I remembered. I can understand how these sort of things tend to become broader though.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Ahh
I had assumed you studies would include some real-world applications. If it's just theory, then fair enough.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Economics are a vital component of policy analysis. nt
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. I guess they're worth it then. Apparently renewable toys don't fit the bill.
Of course anyone who wants renewable toys can buy them.

But for 50 billion dollars, one wouldn't get very much with renewable toys, since none of them can produce at more than 25% of capacity utilization.

In fact, wealthy people get huge tax breaks for renewable toys, and they still don't cut it. They have failed to produce significant energy.

Given that the renewable toys have 50 years of cheering behind them, the fact that they are still more expensive than natural gas - the only form of dangerous fossil fuels that they can impact (and they don't do that reliably), I think we all can see why people are paying for nuclear plants.

Nuclear plants cleaner, safer, and they are more reliable.

Nuclear power plants, in fact, are the cheapest form of energy there is, especially if you count the cost of deposits of dangerous fossil fuel waste in lung tissue.

Amory Lovings and Gerhard Schroeder's plan to fund coal and gas plants through "bait and switch and fantasy" appears to have been an expensive mistake that is killing all of humanity.

Nuclear plants save lives.

In modern times everyone will need to pay more for energy. Nuclear power is the most affordable option, and will be, just as it has been for many decades, the cheapest form of fully loaded cost energy. And by fully loaded I mean external and internal costs.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I guess that's why 39% of new 2007 installed capacity was renewable toys.
Marvin, Marvin, Marvin...

How many new US nuclear plants went online in 2007

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. a brazillion...
:nuke: :evilgrin: :nuke:
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Finishline42 Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. kristopher - how many utility scale windmills could be bought and installed for the cost of one
nuclear plant? Wonder how many sites on government land (schools, post office facilities, military bases) have the wind resources to support the cost? Considering that most windmills cover their cost in around 7 years and take less than 2 years to come online and have a service life of 20 years, wouldn't it make sense to start a program installing 5 to 10000 over the next 10 years? Commitment to such a program would spur investment in factories and drop the cost per unit. Installing on government land would allow the electricity produced to be used locally and reduce the cost of government.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't know.
The price of everything is escalating so rapidly it is hard to say with any certainty, but Cape Wind estimated the cost of installing their project in Nantucket Sound to be about 5 million for each 3.6 Mw turbine. Using that you could put up 1208 offshore turbines with a nameplate capacity of 4,608Mw the capacity factor for offshore turbines has been measured at 40% so you get a production capacity of 1.6Gw.

This puts the scale into perspective. http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2007/feb/wind020107.html

Researchers find substantial wind resource off Mid-Atlantic coast

3:49 p.m., Feb. 1, 2007--The wind resource off the Mid-Atlantic coast could supply the energy needs of nine states from Massachusetts to North Carolina, plus the District of Columbia--with enough left over to support a 50 percent increase in future energy demand--according to a study by researchers at the University of Delaware and Stanford University.

Willett Kempton, Richard Garvine and Amardeep Dhanju at the University of Delaware and Mark Jacobson and Cristina Archer at Stanford, found that the wind over the Middle Atlantic Bight, the aquatic region from Cape Cod, Mass., to Cape Hatteras, N.C., could produce 330 gigawatts (GW) of average electrical power if thousands of wind turbines were installed off the coast.

The estimated power supply from offshore wind substantially exceeds the region's current energy use, which the scientists estimate at 185 gigawatts, from electricity, gasoline, fuel oil and natural gas sources.

Supplying the region's energy needs with offshore wind power would reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 68 percent and reduce greenhouse gases by 57 percent, according to the study.

The study marks the first empirical analysis in the United States of a large-scale region's potential offshore wind-energy supply using a model that links geophysics with wind-electric technology--and that defines where wind turbines at sea may be located in relation to water depth, geology and “exclusion zones” for bird flyways, shipping lanes and other uses.

The results are published in the Jan. 24 issue of Geophysical Research Letters, a peer-reviewed scientific journal produced by the American Geophysical Union, a nonprofit organization of geophysicists with more than 49,000 members in 140 countries.
At Stanford, Mark Jacobson, professor of civil and environmental engineering, and Cristina Archer, who recently completed her doctorate, were part of the research team.

Kempton, the UD professor of marine policy who led the study, has worked on several public opinion surveys about offshore wind power over the past three years, including a survey of Cape Cod residents, who largely have opposed a major wind farm proposed for their coastal area, and a more recent survey in Delaware that revealed strong support for offshore wind power as the next electricity source for the state.

“In doing our surveys and watching the public debate, we saw that no one had solid empirical data on the actual size of the offshore wind resource, and we felt this was important for policy decisions,” Kempton said.

Kempton collaborated with an interdisciplinary team of scientists, including Garvine, who is a physical oceanographer and Maxwell P. and Mildred H. Harrington Professor of Marine Studies at UD, and Jacobson, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford. Archer, who recently completed her doctorate, and Dhanju, who is working on his doctorate, also carried out parts of the research.

The Delaware Green Energy Fund, UD's College of Marine and Earth Studies, the Delaware Sea Grant College Program and the Global Climate and Energy Project at Stanford supported the study.

the wind power resource

The scientists began by developing a model of the lowest atmospheric layer over the ocean. Known as the “planetary boundary layer,” it extends vertically from the ocean surface to 3,000 meters (up to 9,842 feet) and is where strong, gusty winds occur due to friction between the atmosphere and the sea surface, solar heating and other factors. It provides the “fuel” for offshore wind turbines, which may stand up to 80 meters (262 feet) tall, with blades as long as 55 meters (180 feet).

The scientists examined current wind-turbine technologies to determine the depth of the water and the distance from shore the wind turbines could be located. They also defined “exclusion zones” where wind turbines could not be installed, such as major bird flyways, shipping lanes, chemical disposal sites, military restricted areas, borrow sites where sediments are removed for beach renourishment projects, and “visual space” from major tourist beaches.


To estimate the size of the wind power resource, the researchers needed to figure out the maximum number of wind turbines that could be erected and the region's average wind power. The spacing used between the hypothetical wind turbines was about one-half mile apart. At a closer spacing, Kempton said, upwind turbines will “steal” wind energy from downstream ones.

Anemometer readings from the nine NOAA weather buoys in the Middle Atlantic Bight were analyzed. To determine the average wind over the region, the scientists reviewed all the wind-speed data from the past 21 years from one of the buoys. The findings were then extrapolated to the height of the offshore wind turbines currently being manufactured in order to determine the average power output per unit. At the current 80-meter (262-foot) wind turbine height, the extrapolated wind speed of the mid-range buoy is 8.2 meters per second (18.3 miles per hour or 16 knots).
The scientists' estimate of the full-resource, average wind power output of 330 gigawatts over the Middle Atlantic Bight is based on the installation of 166,720 wind turbines, each generating up to 5 megawatts of power. The wind turbines would be located at varying distances from shore, out to 100 meters of water depth, over an ocean area spanning more than 50,000 square miles, from Cape Cod to Cape Hatteras.

In comparison to the oil and natural gas resources of the Atlantic Outer Continental Shelf--the submerged land that lies seaward from 3 miles offshore and is under federal jurisdiction--the researchers found that the shelf's reported energy sources would amount to only one-tenth of the wind resource and would be exhausted in 20 years.

Addressing wind power fluctuations and energy priorities

While 330 gigawatts is the average output of the entire offshore wind resource over the Mid-Atlantic Bight, the researchers note that offshore wind is not uniform and offer suggestions for addressing power fluctuations.

“Over a large area like this, the wind blows stronger at some times and places, weaker at others,” Kempton said.

To make wind power more uniform, the study shows that multiple sites could be connected through power lines to reduce the number of times of both maximum and minimum power. Changes in new and replacement energy-using devices, including automobiles, also could provide for greater power storage.

“Battery and plug-in hybrid automobiles, for example, have large storage that is unused when the car is parked,” Kempton said.

With a scientifically reliable estimate of the region's offshore wind power potential now in hand, how likely are we to actually install more than 100,000 wind turbines off the Mid-Atlantic coast?

Kempton said it's a matter of priority. “Today, market forces and incremental technology developments will gradually make offshore wind the least-cost power in more and more East Coast locations,” Kempton said. “On the other hand, if climate change becomes a much greater priority for the United States, our study shows how we could displace more than half the carbon dioxide emissions of the Mid-Atlantic area quickly, using existing technology.”

On the practicality of producing 166,720 wind turbines, co-author Richard Garvine noted, “the United States began producing 2,000 warplanes per year in 1939 for World War II, increased production each year, and, by 1946, had sent 257,000 aircraft into service.

“We did that in seven years, using 1940s technology,” he said.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Utility grade wind turbines cost $1.3 - 1.5 million per megawatt
$6.4 billion would buy ~4300 MW of wind turbine capacity.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. What's the source of that number?
I haven't seen anything lately but it is pretty close to (the probably out of date) Cape Wind estimate for offshore.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. You forgot the word "peak".
Just thought I'd mention it. :)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. The ACTUAL capacity would be 1.6Gw Wind is less expensive and less dangerous than nukes.
Edited on Mon May-12-08 08:44 AM by kristopher
Nuclear power in a warming world

Union of Concerned Scientists

Findings and Recommendations in Brief
Global warming demands a profound transformation in the ways we generate and consume energy. Because nuclear
power results in few global warming emissions, an increase in nuclear power could help reduce global warming—but
it could also increase the threats to human safety and security. The risks include a massive release of radiation due
to a power plant meltdown or terrorist attack, and the death of hundreds of thousands due to the detonation of a
nuclear weapon made with materials obtained from a civilian nuclear power system. Minimizing these risks is simply
pragmatic: nothing will affect the public acceptability of nuclear power as much as a serious nuclear accident, a
terrorist strike on a reactor or spent fuel pool, or the terrorist detonation of a nuclear weapon made from stolen
nuclear reactor materials.


Safety problems remain despite a lack of
serious accidents.
A serious nuclear power accident has not occurred
in the United States since 1979, when the Three
Mile Island reactor in Pennsylvania experienced a
partial core meltdown. However, the absence of
serious accidents does not necessarily indicate that
safety measures and oversight are adequate. Since
1979, there have been 35 instances in which indi-
vidual reactors have shut down to restore safety
standards, and the owner has taken a year or more
to address dozens or even hundreds of equipment
impairments that had accumulated over a period
of years. The most recent such shutdown occurred
in 2002. These year-plus closures indicate that
the NRC has been doing a poor job of regulating
the safety of power reactors. An effective regulator
would be neither unaware nor passively tolerant of
safety problems so extensive that a year or more is
needed to fix them.

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. No, the AVERAGE capacity is 1.6GW
The ACTUAL capacity swings from 0 to 4.3GW depending on the weather. Unless you have a way of storing tens of GWh of energy (and you'd the only one on the planet who does), you also need an on-demand backup capable of producing up to 4.3GW. Hydro is good, but I wasn't aware of any plans to build a 4.3Gw dam system in Georgia. Spain and Denmark - who use the most wind - use natural gas, so I'll leave you to look up the plant, fuel and environment costs of building 4.3GW of NG power plant and running it at an average of 63% for the life of a turbine.

You should look up the UCS's energy policy while your at it, and wonder why it stops at 2020.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. What was the other 61%? nt
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Mostly natural gas. nt
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Figures
:eyes:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Comparative price chart
From 2005.
These folks continually underestimate renewables and overestimate fossil. In spite of nearly 10 years of growth between 25=50% per year, they always forecast next year at about 2%. I'm therefore suspicious of their forecasts on anything. I've included a link to the presentation this chart is from.



http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/speeches/dist_generation.html
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Sorry, I meant "It figures"
People are still putting green-washed fossil fuels before the environment, and the CO2 is still going up.

Hey ho.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. That attitude ignores the reality that transition is a process
Get the worst shit out of active inventory first. Your attitude is an obstacle to action. It is the mentality formed around a 'silver bullet' solution, and its unrealistic nature feeds the perception of the wingnuts on the other side that 'tree huggers' want to take us back to barbarism.

You are the change you seek.
GoBama.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. The point of the chart
Shows nuclear as most expensive.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Only if you don't mind brown outs...
but I won't repeat post 51. If' you've read the speech for the chart, you'll see he talks about reducing fossil use, not eliminating it: That's still too much for my money, although if you can convince me that 400ppm CO2is actually safe I might reconsider.

Hmmm. I can sort of understand why he missed hydro off - it's not really distributed - but I wonder why the chart didn't show PV...
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Finishline42 Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Am I reading the chart correctly?
Capital cost for Nuclear going down from 2005 to 2020? All I read about is the cost of nuke plants skyrocketing.

Wiki says that we have 85 year supply of Uranium. With just over 200 plants in Europe, 100 in the US and McCain wants to build 700 plants? Where's all the reserves located? You guessed it - not here. Wouldn't we be in kind of the same place we are today - at the mercy of the world market?

From Wiki:

It is estimated that 4.7 million tons of uranium ore reserves are economically available, while 35 million tons are classed as mineral resources (reasonable prospects for eventual economic extraction).<34> An additional 4.6 billion tonnes of uranium are estimated to be in sea water (Japanese scientists in the 1980s showed that extraction of uranium from sea water using ion exchangers was feasible).<35><36>

Exploration for uranium is continuing to increase with US$200 million being spent world wide in 2005, a 54% increase on the previous year.<34>

Australia has 40% of the world's uranium ore reserves<37> and the world's largest single uranium deposit, located at the Olympic Dam Mine in South Australia.<38> Almost all of the uranium production is exported, under strict International Atomic Energy Agency safeguards against use in nuclear weapons.

Supply
Uranium output in 2005

In 2005, seventeen countries produced concentrated uranium oxides, with Canada (27.9% of world production) and Australia (22.8%) being the largest producers and Kazakhstan (10.5%), Russia (8.0%), Namibia (7.5%), Niger (7.4%), Uzbekistan (5.5%), the United States (2.5%), Ukraine (1.9%) and China (1.7%) also producing significant amounts.<39> The ultimate supply of uranium is believed to be very large and sufficient for at least the next 85 years<34> although some studies indicate underinvestment in the late twentieth century may produce supply problems in the 21st century.<40>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Yes.
That reflects the assumption that all the infrastructure and training required to expand construction will be spread out as we build more. It is an economy of scale argument.

I don't place much stock in EIA forecasts - especially under this administration.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. That's from 2002, not 2005.
Edited on Mon May-12-08 05:21 PM by bananas
That presentation is listed here as April 18,2002: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/speeches/main2002.html
They were projecting the costs 3 and 17 years into the future.
In 2002 they were extremely underestimating the costs of nuclear energy.


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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. I guess that's why you're here everyday shukkin yer jive...
, because nuclear power is so great that it can stand on it's own without a cadre of propagandists shilling for it...

Or maybe it's just a defective product that requires the work of unemployed used car salesmen.

I think yer gonna lose this gig because you ain't selling shit....

Oh well, you can always try to shoplift another bottle of gin....
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