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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:37 AM
Original message
Oil price projections to 2012
One thing everybody wants to know is, "What is the price of oil likely to be in a few years?" Of course that's largely an unanswerable question because of poor reserve data, differing interpretations of stated national production intentions and elasticity effects that lead to demand destruction or substitution. However, it is possible to do simple-minded extrapolations of recent price behaviour to see what might happen if various trends continue.

Just for grins I extrapolated the price of oil based out to 2012 using Excel's exponential trend line function. I examined three cases. The first uses weekly price data from 1998 to the present, the second extrapolates the trend we've seen since the beginning of 2002, and the third extrapolates the trend of the last year and a half -- from the beginning of 2007 until last week.

The price data came from the EIA archives.


For the start of the first chart I picked the beginning of 1998, as that marked the approximate start of the rise in oil prices over the last 10 years:



If the above trend from 1998 holds (meaning that the price rise since 2003 or so is an anomaly, and that the price rise will revert to the earlier trend) we can expect a price of $160/bbl in 2012.


I then looked at the trend from 2002, since that was when there appears to have been a significant upward break in the price trend:



If the trend from 2002 holds (meaning that the price rise since 2007 is an anomalous spike, and that the price rise will revert to the previous trend) we can expect a price of $225/bbl in 2012.


At the beginning of 2007 there was a major upward break in the trend that is still continuing.



If the trend since the beginning of 2007 reflects the underlying reality of the oil markets, we should expect to see $900/bbl in 2012.

The thing that's most interesting to me is just how extreme the change in trend has been in the last 18 months. The first two graphs really don't show terribly dissimilar behaviour. Since the beginning of last year however, all bets have been off.

Given this behaviour, I'd expect to see major effects of demand destruction world-wide in the next two years. That may flatten the curve, but it seems clear to me that we'll see the effects of demand destruction kick in well before any effective global energy substitution program can gain traction.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Would you care to project the future price of a gallon of regular gas?
Good work there, BTW. :thumbsup:
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think gasoline prices will essentially track oil prices.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 09:54 AM by GliderGuider
From $4.00/gal today, that means a range of $6.00/gal to $30/gallon in 2012. If I were a betting man (and I've been known to bet on things like this...) I'd say that we should expect a gallon of gas to be going for over $20 in four years.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. $20 in four years!
There won't be a car on the road!
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. There wil be cars on the road, but most of them might be military...
We are in very, very dangerous territory right now. If it could hit the USA that badly, think of the potential impact on the third world.

This is why I keep harping on my belief that we (the global We) have only 5 to 10 years left before TSHTF.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Price increases might fall off due to decreased demand.
It could point where people don't drive anywhere except for once a month to the grocery store. And in a third world country, a person is not going to burn a $20 gallon of gas every day in their motorcycle if they only make $20 a day.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, it probably will. The $64 trillion question is
Edited on Thu May-15-08 10:28 AM by GliderGuider
What will this do the global economies? Demand destruction means less industrial output, less economic activity, less GDP... Oil prices will go down, but global GDP will take a hit as well. It may happen too fast for any adaptation to fully maintain the transportation dependent sectors of the global economy.

Some of the recent price rise may also be due to speculation, and reducing that might mitigate the price trend without impacting industrial activity. I'm on record as saying I don't think speculation is playing a major role in the recent price rise, but even if half the current trend is due to commodity speculation, we're still left with $500/bbl oil some time in 2012.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I live in a very small town in WV.
Coal trains go by here every day. When I was 4 or 5 years old I can barely remember the steam engines pulling the trains. And I can remember seeing a small train station here, where people would board the trains to get where they wanted to go. Rail service here was discontinued before I was born.

It is possible to revert back to steam engines and rail service for passengers and freight. But there's no way that would happen in four years. A gradual migration is more likely. Already people are less likely to go joy riding on the weekend. I've been taking a friend to the grocery store with me so that we just have to take one vehicle. And the local convenience store is getting more business, since frequent trips to a larger and more distant store is getting less viable.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. You've hit on the crux of the problem
"It is possible to revert back to steam engines and rail service for passengers and freight. But there's no way that would happen in four years."

Most of the people who are proposing "solutions" -- whether it's technological Business As Usual dreams like electric cars or even powerdown solutions like electric rail -- don't seem to understand how close to the edge we are.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well there are some changes coming.
Might get ugly, just as you say.

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think I'm going to get a pony
and a tiny wagon.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, given all the horseshit that gets thrown around on this subject
Edited on Thu May-15-08 10:33 AM by GliderGuider
the pony should be pretty easy to find...
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bookmarked for future reference.
I agree that the last 18 months have been extreme. The only thing more disturbing than the price rise has been the collective denial of the media and the political realm. Demand destruction is like yo-yo dieting: we're going to see a whole lot of turbulence between now and 2012. Like $100 rises and falls in a 3 month span.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Lets look at the checks on price.
Remember the concept behind peak oil, we have used 1/2 of the oil in the world, 1/2 of the oil is still in the ground and it will take another 150 years to get it all out. During that time period out society will change. The change will NOT occur till AFTER the Crisis hits (And it appears to be hitting NOW). This has been known to centuries that people will NOT change till a crisis hits and then change during the criss. FDR's New Deal of the 1930s was NOT something thought up at that time, but reforms that had been kicked around since the 1880s, but none of the recessions before the Great Depression was severe enough to force people to accept that needed changes. When Truman proposed a new set of Reforms it was shot dow, but the 1940s we were no longer in an Economic Crisis. We hit another mild economic Crisis on the 1970s, reforms were proposed by during the 1980s, when the crisis no longer existed, those reforms were killed as were several of the Reforms of the New Deal, for it was argued such restrictions on business was hurting business (And the economic mess we are in today is do to those Reagan era "Reforms" that undid much of the New Deal.

Crisis brings reforms, the Crisis hits then society stabilized then reforms (This is what happened in the 1930s, economic Crisis in the early 1930s, followed by a period of Economic Stabilization where FDR passed the New Deal, by the late 1930s the Crisis was behind us and further reforms ended. Notice the reforms did NOT occur during the Crisis, but AFTER the crisis had stabilized for a couple of years. That same happens in Revolutions, the Worse year for the French Peasant was 1787, that crisis was over when the Revolution of 1789-1792 took place. Russia's worse year in WWII was 1916, things were looking better for Russia in 1917, thus you had revolution. People will revolt when they feel confident that they can, that occurs NOT as situations gets bad, but as things bottoms out and improves.

How does this affect the reforms needed for Peak Oil? We will NOT see anything Change till a large percentage of the population (I will say 10%) can NO longer afford gasoline. The bottom 10% of the population today is on some form of Social Security or Public Welfare, therefore they do NOT count for the 10%. It is the group ABOVE these truly poor that are the key to oil. Most lower income employees afford to drive to work, if gasoline starts to equal his of her hourly income. This is less true as income goes up but I have discussed before. To see the calculation see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=266&topic_id=586&mesg_id=588
it was written three years ago and minimum wage has gone up since that date (No much but some increase in Minimum wage, so the Article says $5-10 a gallon when this happens, it may be $7-10 a gallon do to inflation.

Once these minimum wage employees are out of the employment market, you have several related problems. First as these workers STOP working, they buy less Gasoline (Because they can NOT afford Gasoline). This reduces pressure on the price of Gasoline.

Second, the stores employing such workers have to decide what to do next. You an NOT operate a store without employees. Thus the employer has to increase wages to get any workers OR do other things to bring the employees to work. The problem is the Solution to get more workers to work requires the use of oil, which puts pressure on the price to go up, forcing more workers to quit work. Thus sooner or later you get into a situation where stores close do to lack of employees.

Another factor is these employees buy in suburban stores (Most jobs are in Suburbia today NOT the inner cities or Downtowns, both of which will survive better the increase in the price of Gasoline then the Suburbs will). No work, no money, no buying in the suburban areas (This is true even if the inner city stores charge higher prices, for buyers to those stores can get to such inner city stores without Driving).

Now most of the lower income workers I am discussing live in the Inner Cities or the older Suburbs (i.e Suburbs older then the Malls, which first were introduced in 1964). For more details see my paper on the History of Suburbs:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=266x203

Thus the newer Suburban Malls will be hurt the most, for they are the most dependent on people driving to their malls. I remember when the Pittsburgh Airport opened up as a New Suburban Shopping center. People love it, easy drive, but the stores has a problem, they could NOT get workers. Why? All of the workers willing to work at the wages the stores were offering lived in the inner cities or older suburbs and took public transit, which did NOT exist in new shopping area. The stores kept putting pressure on the local Bus Company to improve service, but they couldn't. It was a variation of which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? Do you operate buses waiting for passengers to discover the service, or do you look where people are waiting for a bus and not find one? It took them years to provide a very low level of public transit, and even today those newer shopping areas have the worse mass transit. People will opt for them as the price of Gasoline goes up, but all that will lead to packed buses, not more buses for the local bus company only has so many buses as it is.

For a comparisons, South Hills Village, south of Pittsburgh, opened in the 1960s, had a reputation in the 1970s gas crisis, as the only mall where sales did not drop. Why? South Hills Village had been built right by the remnant of the old Pittsburgh to Washington PA Interurban Street car line. It had stopped running to Washington PA in the 1950s, but ran as a commuter line within Allegheny County (The county Pittsburgh is in). Do to that rail line, South Hills was able to increase sales while the other malls saw a drop in sales do to the gas crisis.

My point is the outer suburbs will be hurt first and the most. Those areas that have access to Public Transportation will suffer less. The problem is most Mass Transit is an Inner City or Older Suburb transportation system NOT a Suburban transportation system. On the other hand, once price of gasoline gets so high that no one goes out to the suburbans any more, the demand for gasoline will drop as will price.

Other ways to reduce demand. Carpooling is an option, but only if you have people who live close by to each other and work close by, rare in today's society but an option.

Mopeds/ Motor Scooters are an option. A 50 cc Motor Scooter costs only about $2000 and get 90-100 mpg. If your car is getting 20 mpg and you opt for a Scooter, you will save 10 Cents a mile when gasoline is $3 a gallon and 15 cents a mile at $4 a gallon. The typical driver drives 12,000 miles a year, if just half the trips are done by a Scooter this will reduce the demand for gasoline (Notice I do NOT see Scooters replacing cars given bad weather, but in decent weather, even if it takes you more time, the gasoline savings may be worth it).

Bicycle, even more efficient than a motor Scooter.

Solar panels on one's home can reduce demand for oil, more expensive then buying a bicycle but something that can be done today by people how want to.

All of the above can be done NOW, using mass transit will cause a strain on the Public Transit system, but you have to start somewhere (and SOlar Panels made take a while to get installed but again you have to start somewhere).

Long Term (i.e. more than five years) we have a lot of options. One recent research has come up with a plan to use the current of the Rivers to provide electrical power. That power then could be used to provide electric Rail Service (Cutting out some of the demand for oil). Other power sores will take even longer to build (Nuclear for example we are looking at ten years development).

I wanted to mention that as the price of oil goes up, the demand for oil does go down, but the effect will be slow, people will continue to buy oil till they can no longer afford it then and only then will they look at alternatives. In my neighborhood, a lower income small inner city, I have seen more and more low income people riding cheap bikes around town (And I an talking about adults NOT teenagers). The pressure is building. Three years ago I believe when Gasoline reaches $5 a gallon people will have to quit work. I believe it will higher now, but I see it already hitting some people, but the hit on the working poor so far has NOT been so high as to force them to quit they jobs. I am waiting for that to happen, the key is how far must oil go before it becomes widespread?

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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Real interesting
AND I suspect very insightful. I'm wondering how traditional economic "laws" - "behaviors" - will function in TOTALLY novel and changed realities - i.e. ACTUAL energy scarcities, where increased production is NOT a possibility AND the reality that energy is not "only" the means of transport, but it is also a key production ingredient - e.g. petro-chemical fertilizers. Ms Bigmack
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. It does pinpoint the timing of transition well.
But the key element for dramatic change in production infrastructure is that it must benefit societies elites more than it costs them. The "misery index" for the rest of the population factors in as a reflection of the need for change.

In the case of renewables in the 70s it was envisioned as a way to break the hold of the powerful and give energy independence to people on a personal level. This time around the drive for renewables is an operation that is set to create wealth among a new group of elites. A renewable project that only costs $50 million is a small one. T. Boone Pickens just signed a $2,000,000,000 wind deal, for example.

With climate change as a hard limit on carbon, all the investment money in the energy sector is trying to flow to renewables. If we get a cooperative congress in that will give renewables access to the preferred financing now enjoyed by coal and nuclear, then the floodgates should open.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. That was crap, I should not write when I so be in bed asleep
Note I am NOT talking about your comments, but what I wrote. To is badly written but hopefully you understood what I was trying to get out. That at some point supply will exceed demand do to a drastic drop in demand and at that point price will stabilize. When that happens I do NOT know, but I suspect it will be higher then $5 a gallon. People will try to keep their jobs till they can't do it any longer. When the employees stop coming to work do to no gasoline for their car used to get to work we will be facing a true disaster.

Most employment growth over the last 30-40 years has been in Suburbia, and in a Suburbia where it was assumed people, even the working poor, will get to work by driving. There is to much investment in Suburbia for most companies who are in Suburbia to move elsewhere. I foresee a greater demand for Mass Transit but that will take at least a decade to catch up to the expected demand (and in the meantime a good bit of Suburbia will lose whatever draw they have for employment opportunities and then residents). In simple terms, the Stores will close do to lack of employees, do to the high cost of the employees to get to those stores, and with those stores gone people in those distance Suburbs will have to travel further to get to the store that remain open. This will drive up the cost of keeping the suburb home and many will be abandoned.

Now, they are ways for people to reduce their gasoline consumption, and thus keep distance Suburbia alive for a little longer. First is the Moped, which I view as only an interim solution, A 50 cc can get 100 mpg, that is five times what the average car gets today. There will be days you will get wet (or have to take the car) but it will stretch the gasoline dollar. Given a choice, NOT being able to afford the gasoline to get to work, or opting for a Moped to get to work, most people will opt for the Moped. The problem is the Moped still burns gasoline and thus will have some upward pressure on the price of Gasoline. Thus a Moped is an interim device, that will someday go the way of the Automobile (Which may disappear in 5-10 years depending on how high the price of gasoline will go).

The ultimate solution is the Bicycle. It will permit a good bit of Suburbia to survive, by permitting people to bike to the nearest mass transit system to get to work. The areas around such stops will be dominated by businesses, many of the same businesses in suburbia today (For the same reason, a lot of people will have to go to these areas to and from work). Thus such transit stops will be places of employment (And I suspect will be near where the Malls are today, as the Malls demand mass transit so they can stay in business).

The Moped and Bicycle are two of the most important weapons we have in the fight over high gasoline prices. Trains will be the third leg, since trains can be run by electricity, which can be generated by any form of energy including the water flows of rivers (and Solar panels, wind generators and Nuclear energy). Trains tend to be very efficient users of energy, do to the fact trains tracks, in the days of Steam, could not go over 5% (Up Five feet for every 100 feet moved forward). This permitted very long and heavy trains going low speed to haul a lot of fright and people very long distances with minimum use of fuel. These three means of transportation exist today and with minimal input can provide a good bit of the transportation we use today. Along with continuing (But declining) oil stocks the price of gasoline will stop while before it gets to $20 a gallon. I am leaning to $10 a gallon, but with a serious resistance to any increase over $5 a gallon (See my thread above for details why).
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. I suspect the bottom chart is correct...
but I also expect some demand destruction.

My guess - $5-$6 gasoline this year
$7 - $8 in 2009.

After that, all bets are off.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks much for taking the time and effort on this -
I found it fascinating, in a depressing sort of way! A. I'm grateful to the old math teacher for convincing me to hang in there because basic math concepts REALLY would be useful "someday," and B. Somehow, seeing things "graphed out," makes them seem even more immediately real - AND dramatic! Aaagggggg. Our brand-new, first grandchild be facing a bleak future. Scary. Why, as my late, ex-father-in-law used to say, are we so soon old and so late wise???? Ms Bigmack
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