Dishwasher question....

[madeline_con]

We don't have one, at least it's not been installed. I'm looking at resale value on the house, mostly. I'd like to put it in, complete with a garbage disposal and an electrical receptacle for both. I've been doing dishes old school for the 12 years we've been in the house. We got a used unit, retail about $600 to $700, salvaged from an insurance upgrade.

We hooked it up to the garden hose and ran it to see if it works o.k. It seems fine. It runs for like TWO HOURS to do the dishes!!!

Question: Is it an environmentally sound idea to use a dishwasher on a regular basis? How much water and electricity are we talking about here?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. TWO HOURS?

I wouldn't use it again. That's insane. Mine - which isn't new, by a long shot, and is a very simple model - does a load in about 45 minutes - and that includes the incredibly wasteful "Dry" cycle - which I rarely use.

[madeline_con]

4. Maybe less than 2...

It just seemed ridiculous, then with the dry cycle disabled, it only knocked a few minutes off.

[Cattledog]

26. You are actually using more energy

in that 45 minutes than my new dishwasher which takes between 120 -140 minutes to run a cycle. Older dishwashers use aprox 12 -15 gallons of water. My new Kenmore uses 5-6 gal
per wash.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. That long?

Are you using a really strenuous cycle? Because mine has a setting for what is, essentially, a rinse cycle, and then a wash. I just use the wash, and I only run it when it's full. Maybe twice a week. I don't know how many gallons it uses, but it surely never takes as long as yours, so if yours is running longer, it's using about the same amount of water as mine, plus more electricity.

[CreekDog]

2. yes, it's more efficient to use a dishwasher

dishwashers today use perhaps 6-7 gallons of water on average per load of dishes.

turn off the plate warmer function. the hot water is all you need.

doing dishes by hand uses 2.5 gallons of water per minute of the faucet running. you can probably see that for most people, doing dishes by hand uses much more water than dishwashers.

also, the 1.5 - 2 hours is pretty normal for a full cycle these days. one of the reasons dishes come so clean with so little water is that they are sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with the same soapy water for long periods of time.

[lapfog_1]

6. Unless, of course, you have an "old school" double sink.

Like I do. You fill the wash sink up with maybe 2 gallons of water a little bit of dish soap, fill the rinse sink with maybe 1 gallon of rinse water. Wash the plate or bowl, dip in the rinse, place on a rack to air dry.

Very little water, not much energy wasted.

When people had to carry the water to the house from the well and had to heat it using an open fire, they learned to be much more efficient than we are.

[CreekDog]

14. i doubt that saves for a full dishwasher load

if you run the dishwasher every night, compared to this method, it may be more efficient, but otherwise, if you accumulate three days worth of dishes which you might do with a dishwasher, i think that will use less water than the equivalent amount of dishes accumulating (or washed nightly) in your sink over the same period of time.

in my case, there is simply no room for a week's worth of dishes in my sink, so they go in the dishwasher. that amount of dishes could probably not be washed by hand with 6-7 gallons of water. and i have a double sink.

all that said, this is a stupid thing to argue with me about.

MOST people will be more efficient using a dishwasher and use relatively little water to wash an equivalent amount of dishes. most people will also use correspondingly less detergent as well.

thus standard advice should be in favor of the dishwasher assuming many other things are equal.

if you or someone else knows so much about how much water each method uses and can use less water, knock yourself out, but the savings are probably negligible in a household. however, someone who thinks that dishwashers use a lot more water and washes dishes by hand, well that average person is probably using MUCH more water than someone with a dishwasher.

[Mabus]

15. And after doing dishes much like you describe & I use my dishwasher as a drying rack

fwiw, I soak dishes in the sink, using just enough water to cover them, for an hour or so before actually washing them. Anything that is "stuck" on the dishes after a soaking gets the salt treatment. It's amazing what a little salt as a scrubber can do to get rid of those stubborn stuck on things. I do admit to running the dishwasher once in a while. I'm averaging about once every three months or so.

We had a room mate earlier this year who burnt practically everything he cooked. I caught him running the water and scrubbing. I showed him how to use a little bit of salt and water to get stuck on food off. Anyway, after he moved out our water bill went down considerably. In fact, the last time I called to make a payment to the water company the guy I was talking to asked how many people lived in our house (just me and my husband). I asked him why and he said our water usage was far, far less than what it had been in the previous year and down from earlier this year (when we had the room mate). He also said that overall our usage was averaging less than what a single person would use in a small apartment. I told him we believed in conservation and did our best not to squander resources.

[madeline_con]

9. Thanks for the reply...

I feel guilty if I run the water instead of filling up the sink. I use the old "pile up a bunch of stuff in the other side of the sink before rinsing them en masse" method. I guess I still use more H2O. I tried to imagine 5 gallon buckets going down the drain. Thanks for the info. I don't have an owner's manual. :)

[CreekDog]

16. this is why dishwashers are on average more efficient than hand washing

the default saves water. you don't really have to think or discipline yourself to take advantage of the energy and water savings.

just don't pre rinse.

[CreekDog]

19. no problem, thanks for listening. i've given this answer lots of times

it's so funny that many friends assume the dishwasher to be more wasteful because it's the "lazy" way to do dishes. you can be lazy on this one, it's okay! :)

also you may be able to find the owner's manual online from the manufacturer.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Yep. And to cut down further on energy usage, don't use the auto-dryer

[MADem]

3. WAY more efficient, if it's an energy star appliance.

They don't use much electricity or water--less than you'd use farting around at the sink with the sprayer.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=dishwash.pr_dishwashers

[MineralMan]

5. Hand-washing is far more efficient and uses less energy.

Still, a dishwasher is a very useful appliance. It does use more hot water and energy than hand-washing, though. Quite a bit more.

What I do is to hand wash dishes on a normal basis, but use the dishwasher when I have lots of dishes and no time, as when company comes or I'm really busy.

You can also accumulate dishes in the dishwasher until it's full, then run it. That's the most economical use of it, since it takes the same amount of hot water and electricity whether it's full or half empty.

[madeline_con]

10. Damnit! Now I'm 2nd guessing post #9...

I have a double sink. I used to fill the rinse side, but changed to the water running rinse method. Maybe I'll install it, and ponly use it when it's jammed full. Maybe I'll sell it and put solar panles on the roof. then if we move, I can advertise it as having "green upgrades". :shrug:

[MineralMan]

13. It depends on your hand washing methods,

for sure. I know this much: I wouldn't be without mine, which is one of those portable ones you roll around and hook up to the sink. It's just that I don't use it all the time. But, we entertain other couples pretty frequently, and I'm not one to let dirty dishes lie around, so I load the thing up and wash them after company is gone.

When it's just us two, I wash up by hand. Takes about five minutes most of the time.

And, yes, I'm the cook, too. My wife dislikes cooking and dishwashing, and I like cooking and don't mind dishwashing. Since she's the main breadwinner since I retired, it all works out. I've been cooking in our household all along, since I like good food. It's not my wife's thing.

[zeemike]

24. You can also just put the few dishes in the washer and

Wait until you get a full load.
Even if the food is dried on the hot watter will dissolve it.
But how you cook for two without dirtying a whole load I will never understand...I put my pots and pans in there too.

[CreekDog]

20. just install it, stop stressing

shorten your shower by 1 minute

flush the toilet less (if you have a low flow) or replace an old school toilet with a low flow toilet

doing all three will save you hot water/water overall. just switching to a dishwasher will probably save you water, but doing all three will guarantee it.

1 flush = standard size toilet 5 gallons, new 1.6, a newer standard will use less than that. the current low flow toilets have a small flush option as well.

1 minute of hot water in the shower = 2.5 gallons (with low flow, higher with old school fixtures)

1 run of a dishwasher 6-7 gallons.

you can see that anytime the faucet is on for less than 3 minutes, you've used the same amount of water many dishwashers use. dishwashers are small potatoes in home energy and water usage.

good luck.

[CreekDog]

17. how often are you assuming the dishwasher is run?

how many days?

how much water do you think a dishwasher uses?

[AlCzervik]

7. i replaced an el cheapo whirlpool dishwasher for a Bosch about 4 years ago, it take

right about an hour, it's super quiet and uses far less water than the old one, also i do not use the heated dry, i use jetdry and that speeds up the natural drying process.

I also replaced my old maytag clothes washer with a Bosch front loader, i am amazed at how little water it uses, my bill has gone down about 30% since switching over and i got rebates from Bosch and the electric company on both products.

[CreekDog]

21. and front loaders use less detergent also

which means less detergent ending up in our waterways or treatment plants.

[AlCzervik]

22. i use about half the recommended amount in the dishwasher as well.

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. While you're at it, use the right detergents

A number of Eco-friendly detergents are available.
Here are a few I like:

• http://www.ecover.com/us/en/Products/Dishes/">Ecover Dishwasher Tablets
• http://www.citra-solv.com/ppdish.shtml">Citra Dish
• http://www.ecos.com/pages/wave.html">Earth Friendly Products Wave

[diane in sf]

31. I use Lifeline for my laundry, you can dump it in your garden. It's local to California

developed after the drought in the 80s by a chemist from Berkeley so you could water your yard with gray water. It's based on citrus solvents and really gets the clothes clean. It is liquid and only takes 1/2 oz per wash load.

I really like the Ecover I'm using in the dishwasher--it cleans really well and does not have chlorine bleach in it like most of the mainstream stuff.

[OKIsItJustMe]

8. You may be surprised

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/jul/15/water.uknews

Washing dishes by hand wastes millions of litres

Press Association
The Guardian, Saturday 15 July 2006

Washing dishes by hand wastes millions of litres of water every day in the UK, according to a study by Waterwise, a UK pressure group.

This supports the conclusions of research by the University of Bonn, which shows that by using dishwashers each household could save up to 11,000 litres a year.

The survey has been drawn from data from nearly 2,000 households across the country and is based on data going back to the last big drought 30 years ago.

On average dishwashers in the 1970s used 50 litres a wash; new dishwashers can use as little as nine litres of water.

If you save up your dishes, and only run the dish washer when it's full, they can actually be good from an ecological viewpoint.

[zeemike]

11. Here is my take from an appliance repairman

As been stated by others it uses much less watter than hand washing for most people, and does a better job because it can wash in very hot watter.
But your problem of a long cycle may be due to the fact that you have it hooked up to cold watter and many DW have a heater that heats the watter if it is cold, and that takes time when you start with cold watter.

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. Bingo!

Hadn't thought of that. (I'm certain you're right.)

[CreekDog]

18. that's right. so set your water heater at the minimum required for the dishwasher heater to NOT run

then the heater will likely not run. or only barely.

turn off the heated dry cycle and choose air dry.

the energy used to move the water around even for a long cycle is trivial.

a long cycle is not a bad thing, it is re-using the dishwater to get the dishes cleaner.

most dishwashers these days, energy star and all, wash about 1.5 hours. in the old days, the cycle much shorter but using much more water.

[Cattledog]

25. Two hours is the reason it is energy efficient.

It is taking more time but using less energy to do so. Modern Dishwashers actually use less water than washing by hand. aprox 6 gallons.

[Historic NY]

28. I don't used the heat to dry my dishes, I just open the door and let them dry..

it has made a big difference in electric use. Two hours seems a long time there must be a short cycle. I run mine about every three days or so a full load.

[diane in sf]

30. I just got my old portable Sears dishwasher from the 90s the proper couplings

to work in my laundry room. The first time I ran it I used the full amount of water and the electric drying. I wanted to see how much water it used. I noticed that it washed a long time, but used much less water than hand washing. (I use a soap soaking tub, and run rinse water when I do hand wash--don't want to be eating and drinking a bunch of soap scum.) I used Ecover dishwashing powder. The dishes came out beautifully clean. The next time I ran it I used the water and electricity misers. The dishes came out just as clean with no film or spots--just some water because of not being baked dry.

Turns out that old Sears dw is a top of the line Whirlpool, very quiet and thrifty. It's lightened my work load and is saving water. I wash about once a week and this way I don't have dirty dishes piling up in or under the sink. We have ants that like to invade so this is also useful and more aesthetic.