Hydrogen car to be 'open source' (BBC) {350kg car}

[eppur_se_muova]

By Jason Palmer
Science and technology reporter, BBC News

The manufacturer of a hydrogen car unveiled in London on Tuesday will make its designs available online so the cars can be built and improved locally.

The Riversimple car can go 80km/hr (50mph) and travels 322km (200mi) per re-fuelling, with an efficiency equivalent to 300 miles to the gallon.

The cars will be leased with fuel and repair costs included, at an estimated £200 ($315) per month.

The company hopes to have the vehicles in production by 2013.

Next year, it aims to release 10 prototypes in a UK city which yas yet to be confirmed.
***
more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8103106.stm

[no limit]

1. Where am i gonna get the hydrogen? The magic hydrogen fairy?

Dont get me wrong, cool idea and I hope it works out. But I dont see how hydrogen can be a good solution that soon.

[eppur_se_muova]

3. H2 is only a means of storing energy, sort of like a universal currency ...

it can be interconverted with other forms of energy. So H2 can be made by electrolysis using power from solar, hydroelectric, geothermal, nuclear, wind, or any other source of electricity -- none of which require production of CO2. Of course, we could also get H2 from natural gas (currently the cheapest source) or coal, but that can only be done while simultaneously producing CO2, so not a benefit as far as GW is concerned.

Myself, I see quite a few problems with H2 -- it is something for trained technicians to handle, not for Joe-in-a-hurry at your local station trying to fill his tank with the engine running and a cigarette dangling from his lip. If I had a "shovel-ready" solution, I would be speeding to the Patent Office.

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. Just curious… Does the "magic gasoline fairy" come to your house?

The biggest problem with hydrogen is a "chicken and the egg" one.

You don't want a hydrogen car, because you don't have a hydrogen filling station on your block. There's no hydrogen filling station on your block, because there aren't enough hydrogen cars in the neighborhood to warrant one.

Here in NY, a http://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/02/nyregion/law-requiring-gas-stations-to-have-air-pumps-in-effect.html">law was passed in 1984 that any gas station with 4 or more pumps needed to have an air pump as well (for filling tires) the pump could be free, or it could be "coin operated," but it needed to be there.

A similar law could be written to require a hydrogen filling station at gasoline stations of a certain size or larger. (If they've got water and electricity, they can http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production">produce hydrogen. Or, they could "reform" gasoline.)

A hydrogen generation/storage facility would be more expensive than an air pump, but that could be subsidized in part, or in full.

That would put the egg in place.

[lapfog_1]

2. Hydrogen is not a fuel.

It's an energy carrier. And not a good one.

[eppur_se_muova]

4. In terms of energy per unit weight, it's unequaled for energy storage.

It's the low density, boiling point, and extremely high diffusivity that are problematic.

[kristopher]

5. Not to mention

the low system efficiency compared to batteries, and the cost of distribution.

[lapfog_1]

6. Sure, absolutely correct, and not relevant at all

because it's not the "fuel" but the storage container plus the fuel that's important.

So far, the storage is a bit of a problem, especially if you don't want to store it the same way the space shuttle does (or any close variant).

Not to mention that progress on using Hydrogen has not really progressed that far. You can burn it, in a HICE, but hydrogen embrittlement is a bit of a issue as well. Fuel cell, so far, expensive, not environmentally friendly (too many rare earth metals that require a *lot* of mining, disposal, etc).

And, while it does store a lot of energy per weight, the loss in the conversion of some other (real) fuel source to hydrogen is significant.

And then there are the trace pollutants when using hydrogen in a HICE.

[eppur_se_muova]

8. It's certainly relevant to any engineering effort. Please refrain from hyperbole.

The larger the vehicle, the greater the ratio of filled to unfilled weight. Cars are mostly too small for the bulky H2 containment methods available so far. At the opposite extreme, for stationary (non-vehicle) use, no one cares about the weight of the container. These are exactly the sort of constraints which will guide further engineering efforts.

If anyone is trying to solve these problems, they first have to identify what the problems are. Dismissing a problem is "not relevant" solves nothing.

There are quite a few prototype and limited use hydrogen vehicles out there now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_cell#Hydrogen_transportation_and_refueling Whether any gains wider use will depend mostly on economics restrained by political decisions about just how seriously we are dedicated to cutting GHG production.

[lapfog_1]

9. The weight of the fuel

is not relevant.

Ask anyone that is an engineer.

It's the weight of the fuel system and engine that matter.

Coal could be used instead of petrol... except for the engine size and weight.

Hydrogen is not a fuel. It's an energy carrier. Just like a battery or capacitor.

It's not hyperbole. To pretend that it's anything else, THAT'S hyperbole.

And to pretend that there are no issues relating to the safe storage of hydrogen...

I'm all for solving problems... but I'm much more in favor of solving the TRANSPORTATION problem, not settling on a "solution" and then solve it's particular problem.

That's what the ethanol people have done. That's what the fuel cell people are doing. Pick a "solution" and then try to figure out how to fix the issues that surround it. That's not the way to approach problem solving.

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. The weight of the fuel is not relevant.

Really!? Gasoline weighs about 6¼lbs/US gallon. 16 gallons weigh about 100 pounds. In a decent car, that will get you over 300 miles. A plastic gas tank adds roughly another 30 pounds. When it snows, I fill my tank, for a little added traction.

The battery pack of the Tesla roadster weighs about 1,000 pounds, for a range of about 200 miles. (Yes, yes, I realize, electric charge is not a fuel per se.)

This entire car, hydrogen tank, fuel cells, wheels, body and all weighs less than the battery pack of a Tesla Roadster, but has about the same range.
http://www.riversimple.com/Default.aspx

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/42870/178/

… As a result, 240 miles (390 km) can be traveled on one small tank of hydrogen weighing only 2.2 lbs.

…

[lapfog_1]

14. The weight of the fuel SYSTEM includes the fuel... - n/t

[Nihil]

7. They were hyping this in the Metro this morning ...

... with the "selling point" that it "only" costs 15p a mile to run ...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?British_gas_car_that_costs_just_15p_a_mile_to_run&in_article_id=686365&in_page_id=34&in_a_source=

Unfortunately, that's over 50% more than I pay at the moment so
they can whistle for it ... in addition, there is that little snag
that they mentioned at the end of the article: "There are only a dozen
hydrogen stations planned to be open by 2010" (my italics).
Whilst they are only planning to hit production in 2013 (if all goes well)
it will be interesting to see how their "trial" works out with regard
to fueling stations ...

When the time comes to replace my car, I'll see what the state of
play is for EVs (or PHEVs at worst)

:shrug:

[excess_3]

10. they 'forgot' to tell how much platinum is needed ..n/t

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. (Assuming they use any platinum at all)

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/02/06/carbon-nanotubes-could-replace-platinum-and-lead-to-affordable-hydrogen-cars/

[kristopher]

15. The question of transportation alternatives must be viewed in context of renewable energy

And in that area, H compares poorly to the battery electric alternative because of its significantly lower system efficiency. This is significant because the lower system efficiency would requires a greater energy input to achieve the same transportation results. This, in turn, would make it necessary to install nearly double the amount of renewable generation than would be required to feed a battery electric small car fleet.

That's why even giving the technology away isn't going to help.