“There's just no constituency for transmission lines.”

[phantom power]

...

The essential problem is that most of the nation's renewable energy resources are located in rural areas, far from what utility managers call “load” or demand centers.

North Dakota leads the nation in potential production of wind generation. The 10 windiest states have only 7 percent of the nation's population.

...

Ritter alluded to the High Plains Express, a major powerline being discussed that would originate in eastern Wyoming, sweep southward across the windy high plains of Colorado and into New Mexico and then Arizona, picking up more wind and solar power. Las Vegas, Phoenix, and other major cities would be the markets.


...

But transmission has been fraught with problems — even within a state. In Colorado, for example, a power line to help export solar electricity from around the Alamosa area to the Front Range is being fought in Huerfano County, which the line would cross.

In the case of multiple states, such disagreements can become magnified.

“It's very easy to block transmission lines,” noted FERC's Spitzer. “There's just no constituency for transmission lines.”

http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20091030/NEWS/910299962/-1/RSS

[XemaSab]

1. Yeah there is...

Just talk to any of my old colleagues at URS, and you've got your constituency right there. :D

[phantom power]

2. This story reminded me that I was once literally a xmission line NIMBY...

We were shopping around for a new home, and we shit-canned one option mostly because it had some big ugly xmission lines running along the back yard.

It also reminds me of a current controversy in Ocean View, DE (home to my in-laws), where they want to run xmission lines from some future offshore wind turbines up out of the ocean, up the beach, and right down the middle of Ocean View. The lines would actually be buried, but a lot of the locals are pissed at the idea of the big trenching project that would be running right down their little slice of coastal heaven.

[kristopher]

4. I have 3 words for you

Interstate Highway System

I don't think this is an issue in the large picture. I'm neighbors with your in-laws and you are not getting an accurate picture of the issue in Delaware. Surveys showed a 95% rate of support for the offshore wind farm and the associated infrastructure - including running the line ashore. There was a *very* small cabal in Ocean View that tried to stir up opposition but they gained absolutely no traction with the public.

The "some future offshore wind turbines" you are talking about will very likely be either the first or second offshore project for the United States and is expected be start generating in, I believe, 2012.

[phantom power]

6. That does not surprise me.

It's not as if they never close roads down there for other projects. How bad could it be? In my neighborhood it seems as if they have local streets dug up every other year for maintaining one buried thing or another.

[depakid]

3. The problem's playing out in Oregon

As this article in Yesterday's Oregonian notes:


Windmills and power lines operate near Wasco in Sherman County. The region's electricity grid will need to expand to handle all the new wind and other renewable energy projects being built across Oregon and the West.
------------



The rows of white turbines spinning over wheat fields and ridgelines in eastern Oregon are ample evidence that renewable energy from wind is real and growing. So much so that the aging network of transmission lines and power stations that carries energy around the region is loaded to its limits.

But wind developers are just getting started. And thousands of miles of new power lines carried by skyscraper-sized steel towers will need to be laid across deserts, farms and forests as more wind farms rise in farther-flung corners of Oregon and the West. It won't be cheap, or without controversy.

More than half of Oregon is public land that Oregonians value for recreation, unobstructed vistas and habitat for sensitive species. And the cleared corridors that accommodate such transmission lines cut a wide swath. Expanding the power grid is one trade-off of the national effort to expand clean energy technology and combat climate change.

"There's no question that we are changing the face of the state right now," said Brent Fenty, executive director of the Oregon Natural Desert Association in Bend, which is tracking transmission proposals in eastern Oregon. "And the important part is that we do that in a way that is responsible and reflects our values."

Energy experts have long lamented the inadequacy of the nation's energy grid. The federal government estimates that even though electricity demand has increased nationally by a quarter since 1990, construction of new transmission facilities has slowed.

The Department of Energy also says $60 billion in new investment in transmission, or about 12,650 miles of new lines nationwide, is needed by 2030 to get 20 percent of power from wind. Expanding the power grid is one trade-off of the national effort to expand clean energy technology and combat climate change.

"There's no question that we are changing the face of the state right now," said Brent Fenty, executive director of the Oregon Natural Desert Association in Bend, which is tracking transmission proposals in eastern Oregon. "And the important part is that we do that in a way that is responsible and reflects our values."

<snip>

Most of Oregon's wind development has focused on the Columbia River Gorge, where there are existing transmission lines, farmers willing to lease their land for turbines and good wind, at least in the summer.

"If you take a look at maps of where the high-quality wind sites are, they're generally not where people live. And ultimately the energy that's produced needs to be delivered to consumers," said Brian Silverstein, senior vice president for transmission services at the Bonneville Power Administration.

The agency, which markets the power from federal dams, has 15,200 miles of transmission lines in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana, that make up about three-fourths of the regional grid. And it proposes 225 miles of new lines, mostly to handle the increased energy production from new wind farms, Silverstein said.

Those thousands of miles of lines don't take into account the multitude of smaller feeder lines that will be needed to connect scattered wind projects to the grid. A good example is the roughly 50-mile line Columbia Energy Partners proposes to carry power from its planned wind farm on the north end of Steens Mountain in Harney County.

Originally envisioned to cross the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, the line was rerouted after opposition from environmental groups. The new route would cross mostly private land, with six power poles proposed on Bureau of Land Management land, said Columbia President Chris Crowley. "Our project is permitted, and it's on private land. But to connect to the grid, we have to cross federal land. And that's proven to be the hook," Crowley said.

The BLM has 30 pending applications for transmission projects in the West, according to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar. On Wednesday, Salazar and other administration officials announced an agreement to streamline the permitting process for transmission projects on public land.

Simultaneously, Western states and federal agencies are trying to plot where new transmission corridors should be located based on where the renewable resources are greatest and potential environmental impacts the least. That includes the West-wide Energy Corridor, a plan to designate 6,000 miles of new energy corridors on 3 million acres of federal lands in Oregon and 10 other Western states where applications to build new pipelines or electricity lines would be expedited.

More: http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2009/10/wind_powers_success_spurs_new.html

[XemaSab]

7. I've been hearing about the PacificCorp line for years, but I don't think they've started the work

Which is too bad, 'cause I need some cash-money. :(

[hunter]

5. "Wind" is a code word for "coal" in much of the West.

It's about building coal plants in states where it's easy to build coal plants and exporting the electricity to states where it's not.

Propose wind, build coal, Profit!

[kristopher]

12. It is true that they are trying to do that.

They are touting it as a "coal/wind hybrid" facility that they justify with a valid (but very narrowly crafted) economic analysis. Of course what they leave out is the fact that the entire reason to build the wind is to shut down coal; I don't believe they are fooling anyone that matters. I could be wrong, on that though; because they are certainly putting it out there...

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=coal+wind+hybrid&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[NNadir]

16. This is so much bull, it stinks like a cattle pen digester. The purpose of wind, for any one who

can understand the simple inequality 72 > 25, where the two figures - something called "numbers" - refer to the approximate capacity utilization of coal fired plants and wind plants respectively.

Thus the claim that wind can shut coal is a fucking fantasy. Although it's been a function of completely unrealistic denial by the "renewables will save us" cults, everybody knows that with 2010 approaching (and 400 ppm of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide approaching in earth's atmosphere) wind storage - a thermodynamic, environmental and economic nightmare - is still what was 10, 20, and 30 years ago - a bunch of worthless soothsaying, posturing and theories.

The "purpose" of wind plants is not to phase out coal, but is to put lipstick on the dangerous natural gas industry pig.

The link between gas interests and wind interests is obvious to anyone with a brain.

[joshcryer]

18. From my observation natural gas is more the midwest priority than coal ever thought about being.

Indeed, it seems the coal/wind hybrids are more about legitimizing coal in an environment where natural gas wins out every time. (Pipelines already exist for the infrastructure, so you add another gas turbine, with coal you have to add another already overtapped train shipment from Canada, and build a new plant).

There's no real economic solution to renewables, as testified by the latest Copenhagen results. It's all or nothing.

[Fumesucker]

19. Get the wind generators high enough and the wind blows constantly..

Flying wind generators in the jetstream could boost wind generation capacity utilization to near or maybe even above coal fired numbers.

Kite based wind generators at lower but still substantial altitudes could give capacity utilization substantially more than propellers on towers could ever hope to achieve.

Your points are valid with the currently installed technology of turbine blades on pylons but become less so the higher the wind energy capture moves in the atmosphere.

http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

Helen Chadwick of De Montfort University in the UK is well known for her course in wind energy capture technology. The first paragraph in the "Wind Energy Training Course" reads as follows:

"The Planetary Boundary Layer

The strongest, steadiest and most persistent winds occur in bands at the jetstream level some 10km above the earth's surface. Unfortunately present technology has not overcome the problems of building 10km high wind turbines! Wind turbines are limited to the lowest few metres of the atmosphere. At these heights the wind is directly affected by the surface, through friction. Wind speeds are thus lower. This layer of the atmosphere is known as the planetary boundary layer.

The planetary boundary layer grows throughout the day as the thermal heating increases. It varies in size from a few hundred metres at night to as high as 2 km on the most convective days. The transfer of momentum, heat and moisture, between the atmosphere and surface, take place within this layer. The processes occurring in the planetary boundary layer include convection, rotation and fully turbulent flow. It is amongst the most complex phenomena of fluid dynamics. A good understanding of the processes occurring in this layer is essential both for optimum siting of the wind turbine and for an understanding of the loadings that the structure will be subjected to." This excellent article, which includes a very complete dictionary of wind terms, may be found at "http://iesd.dmu.ac.uk/wind_energy/wetc131.html"

More at the link..

[wtmusic]

8. Had lunch with an environmental engineer today who confirmed this

There are all kinds of alternative energy sources available in rural areas. He described three solid-waste-to energy facilities on the order of 1MW each in the Los Angeles area.

All of them are blocked from getting power to the city by transmission line issues (one by a single homeowner).

[XemaSab]

9. Was the guy's first name Dan?

:D

[wtmusic]

10. mm, nope

:P

[XemaSab]

11. Gib? Tim?

:shrug:

[wtmusic]

13. You're getting closer.

[XemaSab]

14. Gim, Tib?

:shrug:

[wtmusic]

15. You're getting boring.

[excess_3]

17. nobody will sacrifice their view, for SURPLUS power

there is very little money behind
overbuilding of transmisson lines.


keep in mind that part of the problem, is that the benficeary, wants this done for free.