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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 11:20 AM
Original message
Geo-engineering: In from the Fringe
Edited on Tue Feb-23-10 11:33 AM by OKIsItJustMe
http://news.aaas.org/2010/0222geo-engineering-in-from-the-fringe.shtml

Geo-engineering: In from the Fringe

With greenhouse gas levels increasing in the atmosphere and humans showing little collective will to control the emissions, researchers are looking more closely at potential solutions that would’ve seemed inconceivable just a few years ago.

For example: What if humans, in an effort to reflect some of the sun’s heat away from Earth, pumped aerosols into the atmosphere to form a sort of curtain over the land and oceans?

That’s essentially what happens when a big volcano erupts, but for humans to do the job, it would require engineering on an unprecedented scale. And yet, at the AAAS Annual meeting, it was clear that with climate changes growing more worrisome, geo-engineering has moved from the fringe closer to the mainstream.

In an http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/02/the-latest-on-hacking-the-planet.html">article in ScienceNOW and in a http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/02/podcast-can-geoengineering-save-.html">Science Podcast interview, Eli Kintisch explored how the idea might work—and the possible impacts suggested by climate modeling.

Kintisch talked with Ken Caldeira, a geochemist at the Carnegie Institution in Stanford, California. Caldeira has used climate models to assess the impact of various aerosol-distribution patterns.

After much work, Caldeira said, the climate models have become fairly predictable. Perhaps the optimal approach would be to put concentrations of aerosols above the poles. But the models have yet to find way to cool temperatures without affecting precipitation and other factors.

“These geo-engineering approaches can make most places better most of the time, but will cause some damage to some places,” Caldeira said. “And there’s the complex problem of how do you balance that you do against the benefit that you do.”

Karin Zeitvogel, writing for http://green.yahoo.com/news/afp/scienceclimateus.html">Agence France-Presse, said researchers are studying the steam from ships, condensation trails of airplanes, and volcanic eruptions as they try to assess the potential of geo-engineering. But others, she said, are warning that geo-engineering is “distracting the world from reducing greenhouse gases.”

“There's a huge scope for new methods because once you realize you can make things by direct condensation from vapor, then all different sorts of compounds are possible,” said David Keith, a professor of earth sciences at the University of Calgary. “But it's much harder to figure out the environmental risks and effectiveness of these new methods unless you put them up. That is going to be a fundamental ongoing problem.”

The AFP story also quoted James Fleming, a professor of science, technology, and society at Colby College in Maine. “We need to have a little more insight,” Fleming said. “We should avoid pitfalls and not rush forward.”

Edward W. Lempinen

22 February 2010
7:58 a.m. PST


http://green.yahoo.com/news/afp/scienceclimateus.html
...

"Emissions reduction alone is not going to make the world start cooling this century," said Caldeira.

"It might in future centuries but what happens if in 20, 30, 40 years, temperatures are so high that crops are failing in tropical regions and millions of people are threatened with famine?

"Do we say OK, maybe in this century if we stop emissions, things will start to get cooler? Or do we try to do something to diminish that damage?" he said.

"I don't know if there's something we can do but we'd better try to find out if there is, because it's the only way we can realistically stop the earth from warming during the course of this century," he said.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the Links
This is the key right here: "Emissions reduction alone is not going to make the world start cooling this century."

Anyone concerned about the effects of continued global warming has got to think about ways to intervene. Otherwise, even the most stringent emissions reductions are barely going to slow down polar melting, desertification, and other negative effects.

I have no idea what the best way would be -- probably a combination of carbon sequestration (something as simple as impounding farm tailings), encouraging photosynthesis (either with trees and land plants or phytoplankton), and atmospheric shielding like the sulfur seeding mentioned in the first article. But I'm really glad it's being studied.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes, I'm afraid we may be forced to resort to Geo-Engineering
Many feel we should not even think about it. They feel the risks are simply too great.

I figure, if we're going to do it, it would be better to do it with some careful planning, than with little or no planning.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. What Really Amazes Me
is the complete rejection of geoengineering by many global warming activists, despite their own data showing that there is simply no solution possible with only emissions reduction. If it's that serious a problem, it has to be addressed.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There are those who feel, "We caused this problem, we should let Nature solve it."
There are those who feel, "We caused this problem. It's up to us to solve it."

There are those who feel, "We caused this problem, we (as a species) deserve to die as a penalty."

I personally feel that if we succeed in killing ourselves off, it will not be without extreme cost to the rest of Nature.

I, for one, am not a nihilist.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Read about putting billions of reflective mirrors in an orbital ring...
that would reflect the sun. You can control the mirrors so they put more or less of their surface to the sun and varry the amount of heat on the surface. Now that would be cool...and cooling.

However, engineering on that scale, or any other, is likly to need the same kind of funding and internatonal cooperaitons as controling emissions. It is time to move to higher ground.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah, I don't believe that one's going to happen.
Edited on Tue Feb-23-10 01:22 PM by OKIsItJustMe
BTW: Notice that this is one of the topics that gets knee-jerk unrecs.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I occassionaly recommend but never Unrec anything...
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. On the same lines as the other thread ...
> BTW: Notice that this is one of the topics that gets knee-jerk unrecs.

I unrec this because - as usual for this sort of thing - it is all
"WizzBang New Way To Maintain Business As Usual".

If you believe that vacuous & misleading press releases don't deserve
unrecs, don't click on that link. I do so I will.

:shrug:

>> “These geo-engineering approaches can make most places better most of
>> the time, but will cause some damage to some places,” Caldeira said.
>> “And there’s the complex problem of how do you balance that you do
>> against the benefit that you do.”

Historically, the "complex problem" is sorted by accountants using
spreadsheets to determine which option gives the greatest short-term
profit for the entity involved.

Have a look around you for how well that "strategy" works ...
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. At this point, geo-engineering may not be "WizzBang New Way To Maintain Business As Usual"
Edited on Thu Feb-25-10 12:32 AM by OKIsItJustMe
It may be, "Only way to save our collective ass."

http://motherjones.com/environment/2009/12/copenhagen-geoengineerings-big-break

Copenhagen: Geoengineering's Big Break?

If the summit fails, radical climate experiments may not be far away.

— By Chris Mooney

Mon Dec. 14, 2009 9:14 AM PST

You won't find geoengineering on the official agenda at the climate summit in Copenhagen. But for anyone watching the trajectory of the climate change debate, the controversial notion of intentionally modifying the planet or its climate system to counteract the effects of global warming is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. Attracting almost no attention, Russia may have already conducted the first-ever geoengineering field trial. And if the climate talks at Copenhagen fail, it could give geoengineering advocates the lucky break they've been waiting for.

While it hasn't been featured in the formal negotiations, geoengineering has been a significant sub-theme in Copenhagen—the subject of numerous side events (pdf), protests, and a documentary film screening. Robert Greene's Owning the Weather, which aired here Sunday night in a venue off the spectacularly lit City Hall Square, paints the longstanding history of human attempts to control and modify the weather—through anything ranging from rain dances to quack cloud seeding efforts and hail cannon fusillades. The film ends with the observation that we are moving ever closer to making this ancient dream (or nightmare, if you prefer) a reality.

...

However, the mainstream climate scientists who are willing to at least consider geoengineering as a possibility constantly emphasize that such measures should not be an alternative to greenhouse gas reductions—rather, they could serve as an additional safety valve. To that end, these scientists—like Jason Blackstock, a research scholar at the Vienna-based International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis who, along with the British Royal Society, helped to organize three geoengineering events (pdf) here in Copenhagen—support ongoing geoengineering research, so as to determine with more precision what various types of interventions might do to the planet.

At a panel discussion after the screening of Owning the Weather, Blackstock described geoengineering as "terrifying." But as he quickly added, "scientists are not into this because of hubris, but because of fear." Blackstock went on to make the case that there must be international regulations firmly in place before any rogue nation, or individual, attempts a geoengineering intervention of any significant scale.

...
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