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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 02:44 AM
Original message
Clue to trend on price of lithium batteries for autos?
"BYD, a China-based electric car manufacturer, is expanding into the U.S. energy market and has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the The Los Angeles Department of Water & Power to provide storage for its renewable energy sources.

Under the agreement, the Warren Buffet-backed company will develop a 5- to 10-megawatt power storage unit for the LADWP that will be housed at the utility's wind power facility in the Tehachapi mountains. The storage unit will help LADWP expand its delivery of renewable energy, and will help it comply with a recently passed California state bill that requires electric utilities to implement energy storage technologies by 2016.

The move may also help BYD increase its domestic presence and build its brand..."


http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20016664-48.html

Emerging markets for lithium batteries as economy of scale drives decline in prices are:

Electric Vehicles

Utilities

Commercial and industrial buildings

Smart grid tied home solar

That is a lot of freaking batteries someone is getting ready to sell. BYD is moving far, far faster on every front than almost anyone would have predicted 2 years ago.



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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Which is good news overall
I wish it was an American company doing this but the big oilie bastids have kept a lid on battery development as much as they can. Didn't chevron-texaco buy the patent for NIMH batteries and then set on the patent for all intents and purposes other than a few tools and electric razors etc.
I know this is a little old but its still relevant today as we could have been driving NIMH powered autos by now, all of us who so desires too.

NIMH batteries Held Hostage by Chevron-Texaco
Updated on Saturday, March 24, 2007 in Battery Improvements, General Corruption

March 24, 2007

http://pppad.blogspot.com/2007/05/nimh-held-hostage-by-chevron-texaco.html

http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

Plug-in hybrids are forced to use lead-acid or lithium batteries, and it's no accident. The existing and proven EV-95 NiMH battery from Panasonic, which lasts longer than the life of the car, has adequate power for acceleration without an Internal Combustion ("IC") engine, and can drive an EV at 80 mph for up to 120 miles, went into production in Jan., 1997. These batteries are powerful enough to run an EV from start to 80 mph and for over 100 miles, and have cycle life of at least 1500 charges -- over 150,000 miles before they need replacement

California's 1990 ZEV mandate forced GM and other auto makers to produce Battery Electric cars such as the GM EV1. GM purchased control of the patents from the inventor, Stan and the late Iris Ovshinsky, in 1994 forming "GM Ovonics" under the guise of going into production with the EV1. But GM's Andy Card had been fighting Electric cars for years, and GM's true intention became apparent when on Oct. 10, 2000, GM sold their control of the EV batteries to Texaco. Less than a week later, on Oct. 16, 2000, only days after Texaco acquired control of the batteries, Chevron agreed to purchase Texaco in a $100 billion merger.

Then, Chevron sued Panasonic for making the EV-95 NiMH Battery and Toyota for using it in the RAV4 EV, in the amount of $30 million - and won. Production of the EV-95 NiMH battery stopped and consequently the RAV4 EV. The RA4 EV is running today with the original batteries, many of them have over 100,000 miles.

Shortly thereafter, the EV-95 line of proven, NiMH batteries still running in the RAV4-EV was shut down and killed, and the batteries cannot be sold or imported into the USA, according to one Toyota spokesperson.

Toyota still uses a smaller NiMH battery in their Prius and Camry Hybrids under agreements with Chevron. Toyota will not make their Hybrids plug-in without consent from Chevron. Toyota can only produce a plug-in vehicle without permission from Chevron when they have an alternative battery Technology or when the NiMH patent runs out in 2014.

"A senior Chevron executive was quoted off-the-record as saying that Chevron was determined not to go down the BEV path again and never to let that happen again in the automotive industry, at least not with NiMH batteries." Chevron, by virtue of its purchase, apparently wants cars to be powered by gasoline and not by NiMH batteries large enough to drive cars from electric plug-in power.

Chevron's unit that controls the patents, cobasys, refuses to sell their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either

Auto and oil industry detractors -- "oilliars" -- claim that "the batteries are not ready" for a plug-in Prius. They hope you don't know about the existing, still-running 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV, which operates entirely on batteries

The lithium batteries in the plug-in prius cost something like $14,000 for 9 kWh, about six times the equivalent cost of NiMH, and even more expensive when you consider that NiMH last longer than the life os the car -- even a Toyota car -- while the lithium batteries are untried and unproven

Even if a NiMH pack costs $25000, and even if it only lasts 200,000 miles, that's only 12.5 cents per mile; and for those with solar systems, the electric "fuel" is free of further cost.

A responsible president and prudent Congress could force Chevron to disgorge control of the batteries, and could force auto makers to produce a plug-in serial hybrid for sale on the free market.

With the NiMH batteries, the EV1 got up to 160 miles on a single charge and that was over 10 years ago!

Posted to Yahoo Groups Electric Cars for Sale March 24, 2007.
WHY GM and CHEVRON ARE TRAITORS TO AMERICA

The need for plug-in cars transcends money or commercial interest. Lives are being lost fighting for oil, while billions are expended in handouts to foreign dictators to support our oil addiction.

Now, Chevron Oil is making an economic argument, confused and incoherent, for why it is hogging control of the NiMH batteries, while GM is pretending that NiMH does not exist, and claims the success of the plug-in idea depends on Lithium batteries. Perhaps it does; but the fact that jet engines were not yet ready didn't stop Grumman from making a great propellor fighter.

If these two companies, GM and Chevron, were not traitors, they would release or develop the NiMH plug-in car, while waiting for Lithium.

We know, after all, that NiMH works, and is economically feasible, no more than 6.5 cents per mile in life-cycle battery cost.

Instead, these two TRAITORS, Chevron and GM, put their perceived economic interest, in selling more petroleum at higher prices, above the national interest, which is to reduce dependence on overseas oil imports and reduce vulnerable oil supply lines.

http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?p=690


Would this be the same Andy Card who was Bush 2 chief of staff or something?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep.
> But GM's Andy Card had been fighting Electric cars for years, and GM's true
> intention became apparent when on Oct. 10, 2000, GM sold their control of the
> EV batteries to Texaco. Less than a week later, on Oct. 16, 2000, only days
> after Texaco acquired control of the batteries, Chevron agreed to purchase
> Texaco in a $100 billion merger.
>
> Would this be the same Andy Card who was Bush 2 chief of staff or something?


From 1999 until his selection as President Bush's Chief of Staff,
Card was General Motors' Vice President of Government Relations.
Card directed the company's international, national, state and local
government affairs activities and represented GM on matters of public
policy before Congress and the Administration.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Card)


I can haz corruption in the plutarchy?
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. With this info the picture is much clearer for me now.
thanks for the confirmation :hi:
Have a great day, not sure what part of the day you are in but its just the start of the day here in ok.

I've got a, new to me, metal working lathe/mill that I'm going to build a table for today. Can't wait to get that baby off the floor where I can start learning how to use it. In fact I did my first work with it yesterday
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Have a good one yourself!
It's only mid-afternoon here but I'll be out & about (and offline)
for the rest of the day now.

Enjoy your lathe - I haven't used a metalworking one since leaving
school but it was great fun back then so it sounds like you've got
a good time lined up!
:hi:
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. "...when the NiMH patent runs out in 2014..."
I imagine they're going to try to extend the patent and another reason we need more progressives in the House and Senate.

We need to approach this, and all our other renewable energy issues, from a standpoint of National Security. Until enough of our leaders begin to promote energy independence from that standpoint, we will continue to lag and the excuses for wars over energy resources will continue to have some merit.

Our nation could do so much better.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Lithium has made NiMH obsolete.
Lithium is already far beyond NiMh in every respect and the gap is widening very, very rapidly.

Using a battery pack of a size that for NiMH would provide a 50 mile range, our existing production lithium batteries can go more than 100 miles, and the lithium batteries currently moving from the bench to production will hold enough energy to propel a car 800-1000 miles.

With all automakers turning to EV production there is no longer the ability on the part of anyone to sit on a patent; especially since there are several lithium chemistries that would deliver between 300-1000 miles.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. For the most part lithium is still not proven as NIMH is
I'm not saying I prefer NIMH I'm just going by what I read. We know that NIMH has a pretty good track record in the RAV4 for many years now and many miles where as Lithium we don't have the luxury of time or the miles driven yet. If you're just here to 'one up me' then have fun as I've not the time nor inclination right now to want to argue with you as to what is the best because we both agree that lithium technology is far superior. Personally I'm hoping my next auto purchase will be a plug in using lithium batteries but as it stands now there's still many roadblocks and hurdles to clear before that becomes a reality. I have tools that are powered by both lithium and NIMH and I like both and the lithium does have an edge on weight and size for the same capacity. I had NIMH powered tools long before I had lithium powered tools though as most of us did. :hi:

My basic point with my post was to show what has happened to NIMH technology and why we don't have NIMH powered autos today to pick from.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. If you buy a new vehicle with electric drive it WILL have lithium
I just wanted to be clear that the "roadblocks and obstacles" you mention must refer to circumstances on your own side of the purchase decision, because all electric drive vehicles will be using lithium.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Predicted 2 years ago?"
Bull.

We've had decade after decade after decade of wind/solar car CULTure talk, with a little biofuels crap thrown in for good measure.

It was garbage 10 years ago; it was garbage 20 years ago; it will be garbage 10 years from now.

Cars are still pieces of crap, hundreds of millions of them, 99% of which still run on petroleum.

The endless line of bull designed to make bourgeois consumers feel less guilty about their huge piles of consumer junk has done zero to make cars environmentally acceptable.

There isn't enough lithium on this planet to have a significant bunch of airheads driving around in their pretend electric cars.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think I've got it...
you are worried that they will run out of lithium for medicinal purposes.

http://www.drugs.com/lithium.html
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. What a weirdo
Edited on Tue Sep-21-10 08:36 PM by madokie
If you aren't the author of or have the original thought you're against it. Man o man what a weird ass world you must live in.
My only worry is do you stay warm there under that bridge in the winter months? I worry about you big guy I really do :-(

Edit to remove the eom in title as I couldn't resist showing my love
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. NNdair and I had this debate several years ago, but the real issue is electric generation
Edited on Wed Sep-22-10 01:39 PM by happyslug
To convert the Entire US Motor Vehicle transportation system to electricity would not only require lithium batteries BUT a massive increase in electrical generation capacity, over a very short time period. Long term, (and by that term I mean 20-50 years) such an increase in Capacity is possible, but NOT short term.

The majority of this energy is derived from fossil fuels: in 2005, it was estimated that 40% of the nation's energy came from petroleum, 23% from coal, and 23% from natural gas. Nuclear power supplied 8.4% and renewable energy supplied 7.3%, which was mainly from hydroelectric dams although other renewable are included such as wind power, geothermal and solar energy.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec1_3.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States

Historical Energy use in the US:


While renewable can increase over the next 10-20 years, if you include Hydroelectric production with renewable (As does the above paragraph) it is be quite small. Nuclear is also expected to increase but just to doable it to meet expected traditional electric use increase will be almost impossible to achieve within the next 10-20 years (It takes about 20 years to go from the time it is decided that more electrical generation is requires, through the decision to go Nuclear, through plant selection and acquisition AND actually building the plant). In 2005 and today no such decision has been made in the US since the 1980s.

Now, while some oil generation electrical plants still exist, they are rare being outlawed in the 1970s so to provide more oil for the transportation industry. Thus today most electrical generation is provided by Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear and Hydroelectrically plants (With Solar and wind producing less then 2% of total needs). Right now Natural gas out produces Nuclear when it comes to electricity, and with the Marcellus Shell boom expected to last a long while, but it is also used to hear homes, businesses etc. In the 1970s when we had a Natural Gas shortage in addition to an Oil Shortage, non-essential uses of Natural gas was abolished (For example many homes still had outside Natural gas lamps that ran all night, for such lamps provided more light at cheaper prices then electrical lamps of the time period even if left on 24 hours a day).

Now the 40% of energy provided by oil, includes trains, tractor trailers (And other big trucks), Farm tractors (and other agricultural equipment), Bulldozers (and other Construction equipment, including trucks used to maintain the highways), emergency equipment (Ambulances, Paramedics Vehicles, Police Cars and trucks and Fire engines) Ships and barges and off road all terrain vehicles. Another big use is heating in those areas without access to Natural Gas (New England and most of Rural America). Notice almost NO Oil is used to generate electricity at the present time (Some does, but very minimal).

The problem with electrical cars is how do we convert the above use of oil to electricity AND produce the electricity. The big problem is the later, i.e. generating the electrical power. If this is to be done by renewable we are NOT looking at a ten time increase, not a 20 times increase, but a 40 times increase. If this is to be provided by Nuclear we are looking at a five times increase. Coal can do so at a mere double of production, Natural gas just a triple. A double increase in production is pushing the possibility of achievement within the next 20 years, A three times or five times is even more remote. It is impossible to have a 40 times increase.

Now, you may say, what about a combination of the above? While that makes the needed increase in electrical generation easier, it is still almost impossible to achieve.

Now, you may say, what about the fact the US is still the third largest oil producer in the world? That will help, for it will make the down ward use of oil within the US easier and slower, but the drop when it comes will be more abrupt then any increase in the above production capacities.

You may also point out that Home Heating oil is part of the 40% oil that needs to be replaced. And I will agree, but like any other source of oil, the price will be set by the people who will pay the highest price for the oil before they quit using it. Many a home heating oil customer will opt for the thousands of Dollars to install a Natural Gas line to their home as the price of oil increase, making oil more and more a transportation only fuel. Such a line is one of the few ways a user of oil can opt for another form of energy.

Once you eliminate home oil use, almost every other use of oil is in transportation (Including being the base for artificial rubber in tires, which can switch to natural rubber as an alternative).

Another down side of electricity is the energy loss during generation. Roughly 3/4 of energy used to produce electric is lost in that production. i.e. the 40 times I mentioned above may be 160 times if non-hydroelectrically renewable is how we generate the needed electrical power. Now, lithium batteries seem to be able to have a discharge level of 90% (thus the main problem with lead-acid batteries, i.e. for every four watt you put into the battery, you get one watt out) is no longer a problem (This killed research on Hydrogen Fuel Cells, with a 50% efficiency, and Fly Wheels with their 90% efficiency). While 90% is quoted for lithium batteries, I have NOT seen a first hand test showing that result, just stories on the net. Thus with Lead acid the 160 became 640 times, but fear of the need for 640 times increase in electrical generation JUST TO REPLACE OIL is no longer valid (Thus 160 times if non-hydroelectrically renewable are how the additional power is to be generated).

Please note, the above IGNORES the expected raise is electricity usage do to "traditional" electrical uses, i.e. air conditioning and computers for examples. Computers are expected to get more energy efficient but as more and more people have them and use them, the saving in efficiency id off set by the increase in usage. Thus we will have to increase electrical generation over and above the above numbers just to maintain expected electrical growth INDEPENDENT of any increase is use to charge cars for driving.

One last comment, people have pointed out that it is possible to charge cars at night, or other times when conventional electrical usage is at its minimum. This will smooth out the production wave by increase the wave at its production minimum (Roughly 2:00 am). To a degree this will help, but no to any significant degree when you look at the huge number of cars that will have to be recharged (I could see 2:00 am becoming the new peak as more and more people start to charge their cars at night, thus outdoing all the benefit of charging at night).

My disagreement with NNadir had to do with HOW rapidly we could produce the needed additional electrical generation capacity within the next 20 years. I do NOT see it being done within the next 20 years. If we should decide now to build the needed plants then in about 20 years they will come on line and have access to the power. The problem is in about 20-30 years coal is expected to peak production and go into decline (Based on the increase in coal production over the last 50-100 years AND where coal is known to exist). Thus at about the time the needed Nuclear or renewable plants come on to line, they will be needed to replace coal and Natural Gas and that will require a similar increase in energy production.

Now, unlike Natural Gas, Coal and Oil, Uranium (and other sources of Nuclear power) are elements NOT compounds made by plants in ancient history and over time transformed into Carbon based energy sources. What this means is Uranium (and other fuels for Nuclear power) can exist almost anywhere in the world, even in the deep ocean. Thus we do not and can not know where all the Nuclear fuel is. On the other hand Carbon base energy sources are derived from plants and as such had to exist some place on the surface of the earth and then covered up till found by man. While the millions of years can put such energy forms thousand of feet below ground, they must be connected in some way with the continents. Thus the deep ocean is out of the picture for such fuels. Coals is tried in with ancient swamps (Thus is almost always on land, through some coal is under the sea but mostly just off the coast). Oil tends to be in areas which in ancient times were away from the coasts, but NOT in deep ocean. Thus oil in the US is primarily in the lower Mississippi area which was a shadow sea at one time (and you have a lot of off shore oil fields for this reason). Natural gas is where when oil and coal were formed the algae that makes up oil was mixed with swamp matter OR for some reason the Oil was pushed below 20,000 feet and do to the heat of the earth converted to Natural Gas.

Notice ALL of the fossil fuel is tied in with the coasts that exist today or in ancient times (For example the coal fields of Pennsylvania, tied in with very old swamps from the Permian age, the Lower Mississippi oil is tied in with much younger ancient inland seas during the time of the Dinosaurs). Thus all fossil fuels are tied in with land and where land and ocean meet or have meet in the past. Thus we have a very good idea where almost all the Coal, Oil and Natural gas is located. On the other hand we can NOT say that about Uranium and other Nuclear sources of energy.

Long term, we are looking at Hydro-electrical, Solar, Wind and Nuclear sources of energy for electrical power. Short term (i.e. less then 20 years) all four are wanting, worse after 20 years all four will NOT only have to replace oil, but Natural Gas and Coal as sources of energy. Thus it may take 50 to 100 years to convert to the post-fossil fuel age. The problem is fossil fuel will start a steep decline in production while before Solar, Wind and Nuclear are capable of replacing them. Thus the best solution will NOT be electric cars, but NOT using cars at all. Conserving energy NOT converting to another form of energy. In my opinion the bicycle has a much better chance of replacing the Gasoline engine then an electric car. People will revert to living close to their work to minimize travel time while walking. Stores will move to be closer to their customers, once the stores realize their customers will NO longer drive their cars to their stores. Schools will follow the same pattern, through having access to tax dollars will be slower. Thus we will return to a living arrangement much like it was in 1920 America, Cars for those purposes that nothing really does better, every one else walking, biking or taking electrical driven transport.

Rural America will have a rougher time, how do you replace the automobile in a low population area? In the 1920s most car makers looked for most of their growth in Rural America (And among the upper middle class only in the cities) NOT in the urban areas. This reflected that the low population had a hard time supporting alternatives to the Car, i.e. Buses, Trains and Trolleys. Some sort of outreach to Rural America will have to occur, probably on the lines of electric buses (using overhead wires back up with lithium batteries) on roads between the towns and the nearest urban area (With people walking, biking and even taking their cars to such towns just to catch a ride). I suspect more and more transport will revert to such wire/battery power. Wire on the Interstates and other main highways, use of lithium battery off such highways but only for a limited time period (I am taking of heavy loads, i.e. tractor trailers, buses, etc NOT individual cars).

Notice even Rural America will have to use Electrical Powered Vehicles, but the key will be how to get the power to them (In the former Warsaw Pact Nations, it was common to see trucks using the same overhead power lines as local streetcars, thus transport is a factor). The problem is NOT that we can replace oil based vehicles with electrical vehicles but can we produce the electricity needed by such a Transformation. Maybe in 50 years but not 20 unless we also reduce HOW we get around and that requires people accepting the fact that commuting to their jobs must be by foot or bike NOT by car. If we transform America then Electrical cars can replace the oil based car, but it has to be one to 10, i.e. every ten cars of today will have to be replaced by one electrical car. In the 1920s the ownership rates of cars was one out of every 15 Americans (And the 1920 census was the First Census with more people living in Urban Areas then Rural Areas, thus even in the 1920s just less then 1/2 the population lived in rural areas, thus in urban areas it was more like one car for every 30 urban dwellers). We do NOT have to drop to the levels of the 1920s, but we have to do more then the mouth service we have been doing since the 1970s on addressing the oil situation.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No additional generation is required
In spite of your dismissal of load shifting, that is precisely what the experts tell us will work, In fact, the conversion of our vehicle fleet to battery electric drive operated by a plug in "vehicle 2 grid" smart system will represent a huge storage resource for the renewable energy sources.

Your thinking is about 20 years behind the research.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Have some cites to support those statements?
Edited on Wed Sep-22-10 08:23 PM by happyslug
occurring to the Energy Information Agency, EIA, in 2008 the US had 1,104,486 Megawatts of generation captivity:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p2.html

with 27,099 Megawatts to be added in 2009 (We are using 2008 data, and it is 2010)
with 19,841 megawatts to be added in 2010
with 13,991 Megawatts to be added in 2011
with 20,741 Megawatts to be added in 2012
with 6,294 Megawatts to be added in 2013
Total 97,966 Megawatt total

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p4.html

Adding the two together we get 1,212,452 Megawatts by 2013

Now by 2013 "Non-coincident Peak Load" (i.e. Normal peak load) will be 836,715 Megawatts.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat4p1.html

In a report for New South Wales (Australia) electric usage peaked at about 100% of "normal peak" at about Noon till 5:00 pm, and dropped to 50% of normal peak at about 4:00 am (Through the bottom, i.e below 60% of capacity was from about 1:30 am till 6:00 AM).

America would follow a similar pattern, through it should be noted (in the summer) industry never dropped below 20% of peak and during the day only doubled till about 50% of usage (Usage at peak was almost 100% so it was also 50% of peak). It was the Residential and Commerce users that went up the most during the day. Commercial peaked during the day and beat out residential between 7:30 AM and 4:00 pm, but after 4:00 following into rapid decline so that residential beats it out till 7:30 the next morning.

In winter, industrial use stayed around 30% with peaks in the with peaks at 7:30 am and 5:00 pm, but overall staying at around 30%. Commercial usage increase between those two time periods, and then drop. Residential usage lowest usage is between 3:00 and 6:00 am, but except for mid-day, always exceeds commercial usage. In simple term the biggest user of electricity is first industry AND then residential usage, commercial usage is a solid but clearly in third place.

Winter usage chart:
http://www.ret.gov.au/Documents/mce/energy-eff/nfee/_documents/consreport_07_.pdf

Rhode Island seems to follow roughly the same pattern:
http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_demand_response_sample_audit.pdf


One problem is industry is more and more looking at using off- peak power itself, flattening out the load curve:
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/webfm_send/480

My point is off peak load is slowly disappearing do to industry slowly adjusting itself to use off peak electric power itself. Furthermore it best we are talking of 40% off peak (and then for about 20% less time then actual peak usage). To replace oil we need electricity generated by something to power those cars. Thus if you cut my numbers in half to reflect the difference between peak and non-peak you still have huge amount of electrical power needed. MORE THEN WE ARE GENERATING NOW EVEN AT PEAK USAGE PERIODS.

None of this reflect HOW much electrical power we till need OFF PEAK to charge up these cars. Nuclear MAY be able to do that (and provide the extra power needed overall), but that only requires a doubling of Nuclear power plants and maintaining present Coal and Natural gas plants. When it comes to non-hydroelectric renewable that reduced to increase in production capacity to 80 times present production. I question the ability to double NUCLEAR plants by 2030 (which is 20 years from now) and to increase solar and wind by a factor of 80 is beyond reason.

My point is conservation will be the best way out of the upcoming mess, NOT electric cars and by Conservation I see personal cars becoming a relic, no one will be able to keep them on the road do to high price of charging them (through once most cars are off the road, demand for electricity will drop and so will the price of electricity, but only as long as most people do NOT have electric cars).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You wrote, "My point is...I see personal cars becoming a relic"
In full, "I see personal cars becoming a relic, no one will be able to keep them on the road do to high price of charging them."

As I said, you are twenty years out of date. There have been an abundant number of detailed analysis done on the topic and I'd suggest you look for what has been done BEFORE you try to prove it wrong. You have presented a hodgepodge of information that is designed to support a conclusion you have prematurely arrived at.

Your numbers, while germane, in addition to being woefully incomplete, are in a format that tells us very little about what will actually happens when X number of electric vehicles hit Y geographic region over a given period with Z energy supply structure being sold under various programs designed to integrate the EVs into the grid. We will *eventually* need more generation, but we have existing excess capacity to absorb shifting about 80% of our personal transportation to EVs. In terms of carbon emissions, advantages to grid stability and operation, advantages to drivers, and overall improvement in quality of living EVs are one of the best things that we can do.


Finally a small housekeeping matter, it is "due to", not "do to"; don't mean to be nitpicking but thought you'd like to know.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I think the short answer is "No"
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 04:15 AM by Nihil
In addition, the repeated substitution of "20 years" for "2 years"
(i.e., 2008 report being discussed in 2010) suggests why some of
the other numbers presented over time appear overly optimistic ...


It was amazing, <...> thought, how people would argue against figures
on no better basis than "they must be wrong".

"I’m sure <.> would not agree with those figures," said <.....> sourly.

"That is so," said <...>, "but I’m afraid that is because he regards
the decimal point as a nuisance."


:P
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