Chevy Volt's battery miles cost more than the gas ones

[wtmusic]

"We often, though sometimes incorrectly, assume that it's cheaper to operate an electric vehicle than a comparable gasoline auto. Hey, who hasn't? While this assumption generally holds true, electrical rates vary widely across the nation and can throw off the numbers. In some instances, like when Inside Line's engineering editor, Jason Kavanagh, drove the Chevrolet Volt out in sunny California, one discovers that operating a vehicle powered by electricity can indeed cost more than running it with the liquid fuel that pours from a pump. Kavanagh explained how he discovered that operating a Volt on electricity is not always as pocketbook-friendly as it may seem:

During its time with us, our 2011 Chevy Volt tester consumed energy at the rate of 39.0 kilowatt-hours per 100 miles when in electric-only mode and averaged 31.1 mpg in gas engine assistance mode. We paid an average of $0.31 per kilowatt-hour of electricity and $3.31 per gallon of 91 octane swill, so the magic of arithmetic tells us that each one of the Volt's miles driven on electricity cost us more money than if it'd simply consumed gasoline instead. That's due in part to our high electricity rate - had our rate dropped to $0.24 per kilowatt-hour, we'd have reached parity on a cost-per-mile basis between electrons and dinosaurs."

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/11/inside-line-our-chevy-volts-battery-miles-cost-more-than-the-g/

Running on electricity the Volt is half as efficient as the Nissan Leaf: 2.56km/kWh vs. 4.83km/kWh. Not that surprising, when you consider it has 400 lbs of internal combustion piggybacking along for 40 miles, doing absolutely nothing but being ready.

[elleng]

1. Good to point this out, as some seem to think/feel that elec car runs 'free.'

Power costs, one way or another; fuel comes from SOMEWHERE.

[ishaneferguson]

2. Fact Check - 16.27 cents/kwhr in Silicon Valley

based on my latest PG&E bill.

[hunter]

3. With PG&E the more you use, the more it costs.

An electric car could easily push your rates up into the
higher tiers.

Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh) 
Baseline Usage          $0.11877
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.13502
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.29062
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.40029
Over 300%   of Baseline $0.40029
 
Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784 

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/rateinfo.shtml

[joshcryer]

6. Also, with their smart metering, the people on the poorer plans are punished.

[phantom power]

55. How does smart metering punish poor people?

I've heard this before, I don't follow. I generally think of smart metering as a good thing -- it allows beneficial pricing policies like off-peak discounts, etc.

[ishaneferguson]

24. Summer 2000 Brown Outs

That method came in after the Summer 2000 ("Enron") Brown Outs. See Wiki - Enron The Smartest Guys In The Room Then Darryl Issa jumped all over it to recall Gov Gray Davis. The graduated rates were to discourage use.

Detroit Edison has its "Smart Meters" - "Smart Grid" programmed differently. The basic 110V service is staged. But the 220V goes through parallel meters. One meter is full rate. The other meter is for "interruptable" and "off peak hours." Let's face it - most EV owners will recharge their EV overnight, and can use the lower rate 220V service.

[RickFromMN]

4. I thought my utility company was raising my electricity rate to $0.11 per kilowatt-hour

Maybe my utility was raising the rate to something a little less than $.011 per kilowatt-hour.

That's still a lot less than $0.31 per kilowatt-hour.

I found a table, http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html
giving average retail price of electricity by state.

If I read the table correctly, California should be less than $0.16 per kilowatt-hour.
Where did they get their electricity? Their price seems high to me.

Also they say they use 39 Kilowatt hours per hundred miles.
I understand the Chevy Volt can go about 40 miles purely on electricity.
According to the review from Popular Mechanics, the Chevy Volt has a 16KW battery,
but the GM engineers only let the battery get half discharged...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/hybrid-electric/volt-reliability-report-test
If one assumed the battery were completely discharged, one would get
40 miles per 16KW, and I'm bad at math...that would be 100 miles per 40KW, did I do this right?
But if the GM engineers only let you use half the battery, that would be
40 miles per 8KW or 100 miles per 20KW.

Did they assume the battery was completely drained after 40 miles or
did they actually recharge the battery to see how much electricity they used?

I admit to being uncomfortable with the Chevy Volt because I fear having
both an electric motor and a gas motor increases the complexity of the Chevy Volt.
In my mind, simpler is better, call me a fool if you wish.

I can't get my head around this article. Forgive me if I don't believe this article.

[wtmusic]

5. Your math is correct, something isn't squaring here.

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe "real world" numbers like these than manufacturer hype. Unless Inside Line has made a math error, their Volt is only getting 41 kilometers to a full charge, or about 25 miles - and that's draining the battery dry.

If it's true the Volt can only realistically promise 20 miles of electric power, Chevy's going to have marketing problems with this car. Compared to other IC or EV sedans, it's looking like the worst of both worlds.

[XemaSab]

7. I saw a street legal golf cart for sale the other day

If all you need is something to run errands with, I'm sure that's a much cheaper option.

[joshcryer]

8. If you're going that route why not just get a small fossil fuel scooter.

I saw a crapload of those here over the summer. It's getting downright nasty now though so it's unviable. (28 degrees right now.)

[XemaSab]

10. But, but, but, teh fossil fuels are teh ebil.

Also, it's hard to carry 24 cans and a sack of dog food home on a scooter. x(

[Nihil]

14. Solution:

> Also, it's hard to carry 24 cans and a sack of dog food home on a scooter.

Train your dog to trot along behind, carrying his/her own food.

Simples!

[madokie]

18. Our little town of 1500 or so souls passed an ordinance allowing golf carts on our streets

just have to stay off the 4 lane hiway going through town.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

11. The take away from this is that cleaner energy is more expensive.

Simple.

[kristopher]

12. No, the takeaway is that autoblog green is a rag with an agenda of some sort.

[joshcryer]

13. The title of the blog post is not misleading.

wtmusic rephrased it to mean something else, but that's the norm for E&E.

[kristopher]

15. The entire blog post is beyond misleading - it is as much a lie as when Fox does it.

It is a manufactured headline that totally fails to represent reality from a source that is expected to be authoritative. Autoblog Green KNOWS that the average price of electricity in the US is around 12 cents/kwh yet they produce a headline using electricity priced almost 300% higher than the norm for the sole purpose of producing support for headlines like that in the OP.

[madokie]

19. Yes they know better too

so does the op

[joshcryer]

31. The OP is the norm for E&E controversial posts.

I regularly see headlines stripped down to mean the exact opposite of the report within.

[joshcryer]

30. Wrong. With proper reading comprehension you can understand exactly what the blog is saying.

Some people in some localities will in fact not have lower costs.

[madokie]

33. I'm at a loss

where would anyone have a higher price?

[joshcryer]

34. Where the bloggers have their car?

I don't know gas / electric prices around the country. I know here that I would have cheaper per-mile use. But I know damn well that there's nothing incorrect in the blog article.

[madokie]

37. "But I know damn well that there's nothing incorrect in the blog article."

Now thats funny :rofl::rofl::rofl: rolling on the fucking floor funny :rofl:

[joshcryer]

50. What's funny about it? The fact that this very thread supports the bloggers view?

C'mon now. No one has refuted that the bloggers car costs more than gas.

[madokie]

54. been so long since I read the article I can't remember if they said where they were at

and that is vital to the story being true, I agree. :hi: just in case wishing u a good day
peace

[madokie]

17. I think this article stinks too

nothing adds up so more than likely its a hit piece on the concept and nothing but bullshit.

[madokie]

16. We pay 9 cents kwh here in n.e. oklahoma

[ishaneferguson]

20. Cost In Dead Soldiers?

What is the cost in dead soldiers to assert hegemony over the Basra oil field and the trans-Afghan pipeline?

[wtmusic]

21. Soldiers/km

would be a sobering calculation, as would cancer and emphysema deaths/km.

Welcome to DU

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[GliderGuider]

22. I once postered a Hummer that was on display in a mall

I put cards in each of the windows with the question, "How many miles to the Iraqi does this thing get?"

I then stood back and watched the reactions. A lot of people read them, and I saw one grinning father explain the point to his 10 year old son an 8 year old daughter. With a million dead Iraqi civilians, it's a non-trivial ratio.

[XemaSab]

23. .

:patriot:

[Fledermaus]

25. Bad science

You would have to run the same test on the Leaf to make any comparison.

Popular Mechanics, Motor Trend, Edmunds, Car and Driver, and many more have run test on the Volt. No one has gotten these type of numbers before.

Like I said, run the same test on the Leaf, and then make comparisons.

[jpak]

26. IF they paid $0.31 per kwh, then PV is mo' betta than grid parity in California

and it would make sense plaster every home and business with PV panels to charge electric cars.

yup

[kristopher]

27. +1

[TheWraith]

36. The average price per KWh in California is 16 cents.

So no.

[Kennah]

28. Something isn't right

$0.31 per KWH seems pretty extreme, and I'm having a lot of trouble swallowing that rate.

Here in Washington state, with PSE (Puget Sound Energy), the base rates I pay are $0.103527 per KWH and $0.085544 per KWH.

With all the additional taxes, charges, and other "socialist, commie, pinko, leftist charges", I paid $0.099798 per KWH overall on my last bill.

[IDemo]

29. We have some of the cheapest electricity and priciest gas in the nation here

If I were looking to purchase a new vehicle, it would be a hybrid or 'pure' EV (preferably).

[joshcryer]

32. Same.

Even though it'd be coming from coal fired electricity, it'd still be cleaner and cheaper than oil.

[TheWraith]

35. I call bullshit. Nowhere in the US does electricity cost 31 cents per KWh.

The national average is 12 cents per KWh. That would make the cost 4.6 cents per mile, or 65 miles electric for the price of one gallon of $3 gas.

[NNadir]

38. He must be thinking of Denmark,

http://www.energy.eu/

The 0.258/kwh Danish electricity price - the highest in Europe - translates at today's exchange rate to 35 cents per kwh.

In France, however, the electric car would be cheaper, which is not to say I support cars.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNadir]

41. Stupid? What's your point, that electricity prices in Denmark aren't the highest in Europe?

Denial is what it is. The link is from the fucking European Union website, kiddie. If you can't fucking read it, that's not the problem of people who have minds.

The entire anti-nuke airhead squad here if full of people who are the intellectual and moral equivalents of Pat Robertson discussing evolution or Inhofe discussing climate change.

Have a swell day.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madokie]

43. And didn't get Amory Lovins in that reply one time

must be slipping is all I know. :rofl:

Probably drives a big ass chevy suburban to get around in too :-)
What a tool

[Kolesar]

44. Or "the fucking Navajos"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139240&mesg_id=139621

Gets his ass kicked here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139240&mesg_id=139650

[madokie]

53. I remember that thread well

pissed me off then and has me pissed off again this morning. assholes are assholes and nothing more and should be treated as one, wiped after passing excrement and washed frequently. Other than that not to be paid much attention to.

[hunter]

45. As posted above, it does.

Up to 40 cents per KWh from my provider, PG&E. That's to pay for expensive natural gas power plants. There's not a lot of coal in the our mix, although people keep pushing to build power lines to import coal electricity from states that allow coal power plants.

An electric car would easily push you up into the 40 cent rate tier.

I don't believe we should change that. Let the electric car drivers pay for their natural gas use, or get them on board with nuclear power which for now is the only lower cost, least environmentally damaging, low carbon power source.

[TheWraith]

51. Let me rephrase: your electricity does not cost 40 cents per KWh.

Your electricity, plus PG&E's more than $1 billion dollars a year in pure profit, plus who knows how much off the books spending on their part, cost 40 cents per KWh.

There's no real engineering reason why a natural gas power plant would cost more than about 16 cents per kilowatt hour. You're being screwed. Nevertheless, that doesn't give license to Autoblog to publish information that's false for most of the country.

[Kolesar]

39. With three nuke plants in our rate base, our electricity is 13.5 c/kW*hour

We are still stuck with stranded costs of 6c/kW*hour for plants built in the 1970s and 1980s.

Thirty five fucking years and we are still paying for Davis Besse. To add to the economic damage, First Energy sells their nuclear power to customers in other states at a cheaper price than 13.5c/kW*hour.

That is what has screwed Cleveland's economic recovery.

[hunter]

48. Because coal is cheap.

You'd rather burn coal?

Yep, I get it.

[Kolesar]

49. In 1981? eom

[Ready4Change]

46. I'd like to know how they got their 31 cent electricity number.

Where, exactly, did they plug this thing in? That number is about double the average for the state the review was in.

Further, had they used the car as most would, it would be plugged in and charging overnight, which usually results in it charging during off-rate hours, which are usually lower than average.

[hunter]

47. From their electric bill, I'm sure.

They plug the car in and it bumps them up to the highest rate tier.

Do you think I should subsidize their increased electricity use?

I'd rather be on the lower tiers where I'm buying inexpensive hydro and nuclear electricity.

Why should someone who doesn't have an electric car subsidize the electric car user's natural gas power plant?

[kristopher]

52. The article on the OP is dishonest.

There is a clear ethical lapse involved that is obvious to some and obviously not apparent at all to others.

What is extremely interesting is that those who see no ethical lapse are well known as supporters of nuclear power and are in opposition to renewable power.

FWIW only a small fraction of the population actually *prefers* nuclear power to renewables.

[yop]

56. Lot of misdirected outrage in this thread

The original blog article is correct. Apparently, they charged their Volt at a location that has an old style analogue electricity meter. You know, the kind that most people in the country still have, where a guy from the electric company has to come to your house every month to read the meter. With that kind of system, the electric company has no way to know when the electricity was used, so they charge the user peak hour rates plus a premium for heavy usage.

So, the outrage should be on behalf of the blogger, not directed at him. He was probably charging his vehicle during off-peak hours, but he was getting charged peak rates plus a premium. He was getting charged $0.40 per kWh for using power at a time of day when the utility should be charging less than $0.10 per kWh.