What happens when 29 reindeer encounter an untouched island. (dial up warning)

[tinrobot]

[mike_c]

1. ERROR: You cannot recommend this post ten million times....

Wow.

[femrap]

23. I

f*cking hate the military. In fact, I'm getting to the point that humans are more trouble than they are worth.

I love animals...damn. That just makes me sick.

I'd like to see the military starve....starve from no $$$ for their budgets.

Shit.

[66 dmhlt]

37. Well ... given enough time, just maybe you can

Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1 Recommend +1

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

54. me too...

[pscot]

122. Too late to recommend

so I'm recommending your comment.

[Viking12]

2. K&R

[Angry Dragon]

3. K&R

[immoderate]

4. K&R

--imm

[HereSince1628]

5. Do NOT worry, just as God on Kolob created this world

for our benefit she will surely create a terrestrial twin to help us if we need it.

God would never treat US like she did the reindeer on St Matthews. Afterall she made us in her image, and look at us! We are wonderful and doing everything we can to populate her little blue island in the emptiness of space.

[pinto]

6. Kick.

:kick:

[onehandle]

7. How long before someone misses the point and says the answer is hunting to 'thin the herd?'

The clock is ticking.

[KansDem]

26. Yeah, a kind of "Kill, Baby, Kill" mantra?

Not long, I'm sure...

[kag]

52. A modest proposal?

[Aleric]

53. Isn't that what war is?

[cleanhippie]

73. So what is the point, then? There are what, 8 BILLION of us? We only have so much resources.

What is the answer?

[loudsue]

8. And 99% of the people on this island (planet earth) don't get it.

There are just way too many people.

[ladjf]

11. Either too many people or not enough Earth for our current mindless

lifestyle. nt

[txlibdem]

70. Not enough Earth... For our current mindless lifestyle

That is so true.

Our current system of Capitalism thrives on waste (planned obsolescence, throw-away society, duplication of effort on a massive scale, inefficient technology and practices that we are stuck with because of powerful/rich backers, I could go on and on...).

But as to the question, "do we have enough resources for humans to live lives of comfort, convenience and self-actualized freedom?" The answer is an unqualified YES. That is the reality we *could* have were it not for Capitalism.

It is merely the unequal distribution of our resources that reinforces the fraud that resources are scarce. They are not.

Note: I said *OUR* resources. They belong to you, me and every other human. But a greedy few take them as their own and are reaping all the benefit from them while the rest of have to suffer the costs or the damage caused by the resource extraction, processing, transportation, etc.

[AlbertCat]

81. That is the reality we *could* have were it not for Capitalism.

Yeah, Communism worked real well too.

Blaming everything on Capitalism is not realistic. Besides, when regulated, it's not AS dreadful as it is now. A bit of Socialism mixed in helps immensely!

There is no 1 system that yields the utopia you wish for. Think of all those utopias of the 19th century.... all defunct. Or, a Kibbutz, anyone?

But we can certainly do better than what's going on today.

Greed is a given, and must be dealt with, but cannot be eliminated.

I cannot find my copy of Peter Weiss' "Marat/Sade" to quote accurately, but there is a great speech, written in couplets of course, that goes something like this:

"Number one can cook
every dish in the book
Number two does your hair
with exceptional flair..."

and it goes on this way about people who do services very very well and concludes with the question...

"Are all these masters of their arts going to be content when they bump their heads on the ceiling of equality?"


It's very good. I wish I could find the exact scene somewhere. (I looked around a bit) I'm trying to remember something I read in High School...in 1975!

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a very good short story on the same sorta subject too. Again... trying to remember High School here!

[txlibdem]

98. Communism worked real well too???? Even though IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED???

What country do you think was Communist? Do you think that China is now Communist? Did you believe the propaganda that the USSR was Communist? You have been fed a story, and you chose to believe it.

The truth: communism has never been tried. Anywhere. At any time.

PS, the rest of your post delves into fiction. This is the only refuge of the fully indoctrinated Capitalist. Come back to reality just for a bit. Try to research how many times Capitalism has "crashed" and needed help from the government. Is that a really system that you actually want to put all your faith in??? What would you say if "Communism" crashed, kaput, flat on its back and needed an outside money source and outside management to prop it back up and continue doing so for years, until it got back on its feet? Would you be saying "Boy, oh boy. That Communism is just great!" I doubt it.

Look at history. Look into the fictions and outright lies you have been told, some that you were taught from early childhood. Then look at the actual outcomes of Capitalism.

Capitalism *HAS* been tried. And it failed. About 15 times so far in the last 150 years.

[ladjf]

92. Unfortunately, humans have an erroneous sense that the Earth's

resources are finite. This fallacious thinking is just part of the bigger picture of the human psyche
that is out of tune with reality.

I believe that conservatives,right wingers, and most religious people grow up under the influence of
authority figures that train them to ignore the natural connects that are apparent all around them.
Alternately, they are taught that the real "truths" are the ones that are presented to them by the authority figure, truths that should be believed and obeyed. Little to the victims realize that the
"truths" area actually components of manipulation, taught to them in order to make them controllable
by authority.

For those that are not able to freely observe the "connections", their lives will feel unfulfilled,
lonely and ANGRY. That is because they are missing the main source of happiness, which is the
realization of connection, of being a real part of something beautiful and wonderful.

(I liked your post. You seem to be aware of the important connections.)

[txlibdem]

99. There is great profit in manufacturing "scarcity" of this or that

Thanks.

Never doubt that whenever you hear about a commodity, product or service being scarce or in limited supply that it is that way *BY DESIGN* and through deliberate action of one or more parties involved.

Take the "scarcity" of rare earth minerals. The prevailing wisdom is that China has a lock on all of it and we're all screwed; the prices of rare earth's are going through the roof one of these days. Then about a week or so ago I read that the USA is going to REOPEN a mine for rare earth minerals that has been shut down for decades!!! Scarcity? How convenient.

[ladjf]

93. Unfortunately, humans have an erroneous sense that the Earth's

resources are finite. This fallacious thinking is just part of the bigger picture of the human psyche
that is out of tune with reality.

I believe that conservatives,right wingers, and most religious people grow up under the influence of
authority figures that train them to ignore the natural connects that are apparent all around them.
Alternately, they are taught that the real "truths" are the ones that are presented to them by the authority figure, truths that should be believed and obeyed. Little to the victims realize that the
"truths" area actually components of manipulation, taught to them in order to make them controllable
by authority.

For those that are not able to freely observe the "connections", their lives will feel unfulfilled,
lonely and ANGRY. That is because they are missing the main source of happiness, which is the
realization of connection, of being a real part of something beautiful and wonderful.

(I liked your post. You seem to be aware of the important connections.)

[CrispyQ]

108. We are consuming our eco-system for the profit of a few.

Kick - too late to rec.

[Enthusiast]

62. Plus one.

There are too many people.

So, it stands to reason that we could employ birth control to remedy this. We could encourage the use of birth control in many nations, including the U.S.A. But, because of religious and cultural we won't even suggest it.

[Delphinus]

120. Might be a bit late

to employ birth control - something about Jared Diamond's book, Collapse, is working its way into my head. Yes, we definitely need to limit growth, but things are already set in motion and won't stop quickly enough to stave off problems.

[txlibdem]

69. If that were true... Who would decide who among us is "excess"

... and who is necessary, who is to stay? Scary, if you ask me.

[pscot]

123. Well, as the Papal Elector said to the Archbishop

Don't worry about who dies. God will know his own.

[Arkansas Granny]

9. K & R!

[d_r]

10. it remimded me

of people on Easter Island
http://current.com/shows/vanguard/blog/92968060_what-we-can-learn-from-the-environmental-wreck-of-easter-island.htm

[GliderGuider]

12. The underlying problem:

Not a single one of those 6,000 reindeer had an economics degree.

[hatrack]

15. But we're human beings - we'll NEVER run out of lichen!

:hi:

[KansDem]

28. We should be wearing buttons that read, "I'm likin' lichen!"

...in the spirit of another "I like..." button campaign of some 60 years ago...

[Gregorian]

13. Now give them cars, houses, and refrigerators.

[FBaggins]

14. We've drawn the entirely wrong conclusion from this scenario.

Obviously the lesbian does killed off all the rest.

Keeping one eunuch to do things like take out the trash (etc).

[Enthusiast]

63. LOL! nt

[Lorien]

16. K & R. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. Overpopulatoin is a huge problem no one is willing to discuss.

Population control does 2 things:
1) Creates less strain on the planet and limits waste/destructoin
2) Allows per capita wealth to remain higher by averaging over a smaller populace.

[femrap]

24. We used to discuss it all

the time in the '70's...until the Fundies got on the airways and said that motherhood is mandatory.

[Enthusiast]

64. Just another wonderful Reagan

legacy.

[dbmk]

56. Actually it was a discussion in one of the Nobel panels some years ago

But that does not mean it is taken up on a serious level.

But it is being considered - and as the developing world catches up and start mimicking the development in the west where we are under, or close to under, the threshold for population replenishing equilibrium - it seems we might actually at some point start a negative population development.

But a little too late would be my guess - or conclusion more or less.

[AlbertCat]

84. Overpopulatoin is a huge problem no one is willing to discuss.

Well, at least you can't blame "the gays" for that problem.

It seems that, as gay rights rise to the surface, it becomes almost the latest "fad" for "breeders" to have a baby. Everybody's doing it!


Of course, having babies has been obviously going on from the start. But now there seems to be a "push" for all women to get a little bundle of joy from god. Yeah... I think religion is pushing it.

[NashVegas]

116. And At the Same Time, People Demand Medical Miracles to Extend Life

[bvar22]

18. The American Stonehenge

The mysterious Georgia Guide Stones

In June 1979, an unknown person or persons under the pseudonym R.C. Christian hired Elberton Granite Finishing Company to build the structure. One popular hypothesis is that the patron's pseudonym may be a tribute to the legendary 17th-century founder of Rosicrucianism, Christian Rosenkreuz.


1) Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

2) Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.

3) Unite humanity with a living new language.

4) Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.

5) Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.

6) Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.

7) Avoid petty laws and useless officials.

8) Balance personal rights with social duties.

9) Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.

10) Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

I had not heard about the Georgia Guide Stones until yesterday.
I am fascinated by the message,
and thought I would post it here since it seems to have some relevance.

[stuntcat]

19. I'd heard of that once, but

But I didn't know about what the stones said! Just that they were in GA.

Very interesting.

[jwirr]

25. Great message but I fear number 2 because it sounds suspiciously

like the eugenics program of the early 1900s. My family was a victim of that era and we still would be as many of us still carry the genes that were target back then. To tell you the truth that is what scares me about all of our plans for the future. They tend toward survival of the fittest on a human level.

[progressoid]

20. Coincidentally, human population growth looks quite similar.

[The Doctor.]

21. A well-managed planet can support up to 10 billion people.

This is not a well-managed planet.

The wars will be horrific.

[txlibdem]

100. Well said.

Continuing the status quo, business as usual, wasteful duplication (triplication, quadruplication) of effort, etc.

Here's an example. Here in Dallas we have 5 cell phone companies. And they all suck depending on who you ask. One carrier works perfectly well in one area but another drops calls like mad there. But if you drive 10 miles the situation changes. None of them are good everywhere, some are crappy everywhere.

So we have 5 companies doing the exact same thing, 5 headquarters buildings, 5 CEOs, 5 boards of directors, 5 sets of tower transceivers (most of the cell towers have at least two different companies' transceivers on the same structure, some are bristling with dozens of them, probably representing all the carriers plus some private corp stuff), 5 fleets of trucks, 5 vehicle service organizations, 5 ... you get the idea. We are paying out the ying-yang for crappy service that is merely a duplicate of the other crappy cell phone co's.

I think this might fit with your concept of a "not well managed" planet?

[GliderGuider]

101. Efficiency = 1/Resilience

When we think about "good management" we tend to get trapped by our industry-oriented education into thinking that requires the elimination of redundancy and the maximization of efficiency. If we adopt an ecological viewpoint, that may not be true. Redundancy maximizes resilience, especially if each redundant mechanism has slightly different properties. Failure modes tend not to cascade in such a system, giving the whole system a better chance of withstanding shocks and disruptions. Think of what happened to communications out of Egypt during the recent uprising. Redundancy (whether biological or industrial) costs more, but in the long run the system may be healthier because of it. Additional cost in this case may not be wasteful.

IMO the goal of a well-managed system is to maximize its chances for long-term survival in an uncertain and potentially hostile environment.

[txlibdem]

102. What happened in Egypt

The whole damn thing was shut down. One ISP stayed up temporarily because they processed the stock market transactions as well as serving consumers. But they shut that down eventually as well. So that is not an argument.

As to redundancy equaling resiliency I have to disagree. Redundancy breeds waste, waste breeds error, error breeds redundancy.

You don't need 5 CEOs to get a resilient network. You don't need 5 sets of networks to ensure communications get through from point A to point B. Just as an example, T-Mobile does not get to use Sprint's network when theirs goes down. Their customers are just screwed.

An intelligently designed communications infrastructure would have sufficient excess capacity to route around failure points. Intelligence trumps waste.

[GliderGuider]

103. How does one "manage" a planet with 10 billion people???

Not to mention 1.5 million other species and an envelope of air and water subject to chaotic fluid dynamics?

Humans have this deep-seated need to feel they're managing things, and a deep-seated conviction that things go better when we do.

Hmmm...

[txlibdem]

105. How do we manage a planet with 10 billion people?

By not having 5 CEOs, 5 HQ buildings, 5 supply chains, 5 retail chains, 5 boards of directors, 5 sets of maintenance crews, 5 vehicle fleets, etc. Duplication, triplication, quadruplication, quintuplication of effort? Welcome to Capitalism.

[The2ndWheel]

109. We can't handle 5 sets of all that

But we're going to easily do 10 billion people?

[mistertrickster]

22. This is great! But unfortunately the CONs take away another lesson from this:

They say, "Look at how good the 6,000 had it. Who cares about the future generations as long as we get ours?"

That's what we're at war with, and yes war is the right word.

[paparush]

27. Agent Smith from "The Matrix" -

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

{{maybe Reindeer aren't actually Reindeer}}

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

29. This is the problem with evolution...

The smart ones who recognize the problem stop having children and are removed from the genepool.
The stupid procreators are all that remains.

[greiner3]

30. That's not evolution theory at all.

[bhikkhu]

33. Stupidity is not a hereditary trait

(in spite of all our inclinations to believe that it is), you can say as a general rule that the capacity of every human brain at birth is approximately equivalent. Experience, environment, culture, parenting, etc, all leave their mark in shaping the mature adult, and contributing to or taking away from the capacity to think and build intelligence. The higher birthrate of the less intelligent (if it is in fact the case, and I'm not sure that it is) would simply place larger expectations on society beyond the family to contribute to child-rearing, and wouldn't in any case lead necessarily to an "Idiocracy" type result.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

35. While intelligence is not hereditary, parents pass along traditions/values/beliefs

[bhikkhu]

40. leading to a variety of cultures with varying levels of fitness

and, inevitably, evolution (the evolution of culture towards fitness, that is, rather ordinary physical evolution) again tends to sort things out.

[Enthusiast]

65. Who says intelligence is not hereditary?

Intelligence is most certainly at least partially inherited and maybe mostly inherited. Intelligence is a 'trait' just like brown eyes or curly hair.

[AlbertCat]

88. Intelligence is most certainly at least partially inherited

Thank you for pointing that out.

The "blank slate" argument is defunct.

But then, "intelligence" is not just one thing.... but a myriad of traits, all of which can be inherited at different frequencies. And of course, environment effects genes and their consequences.

BTW.... parents have the least effect on children compared to their peers and the environment plus their genes. This is obvious when you notice that children of immigrants do not have the accent of their parents, but of their peers.

[Nihil]

55. Not a problem with evolution, just with humanity.

> The smart ones who recognize the problem stop having children
> and are removed from the genepool.
> The stupid procreators are all that remains.

With any other species, intelligence is a beneficial attribute that will usually
lead to advantages (e.g., being able to access food sources that would be out of
range for those members of the species without the intelligence to obtain them).

With humanity, intelligence brings the realisation that one has to limit one's
consumption, thus allowing the unintelligent to continue their cancerous race
over the precipice (like the reindeer in the OP).

Weight of numbers ...

:-(

[paparush]

57. You're thinking of a different movie - "Idiocracy"

Idiocracy(2006)
Private Joe Bauers, the definition of "average American", is selected by the Pentagon to be the guinea pig for a top-secret hibernation program. Forgotten, he awakes 500 years in the future. He discovers a society so incredibly dumbed-down that he's easily the most intelligent person alive.



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

[greiner3]

31. There are many similiar stories in evolutionary biology;

The underlying principle is credited to Malthus who's work on population limiters was a big influence on Darwin's work. Malthus theorized that left unchecked any organism would soon grow to overwhelming proportions. Take bacteria; most strains double in size every 20 minutes. If all the bacteria doubled unbound in a few days the entire world would be filled with the original bacteria.

The limiters of this happening would be food, area and inhospitable environs.

The reindeer were doomed from the start. The only way they would not have reached the end they did would have been to have started the original herd with all animals of one sex. Anything else had to produce the same result.

[BrklynLiberal]

32. Wow!

a "fable" that we should all pay very close attention to ....

The island, like this planet...will continue to exist.. It is the inhabitants that perish.

[James48]

34. 41 females and one male???

Interesting.

Fourty one, eh?

Fourty one. Fourty one. Fourty one.



Nah.

[bertman]

43. 'Nah' is correct, James 48. It was FORTY one.

[Plucketeer]

36. Mother Nature is ruthless

Not much "mothering" about her. We're here - on our own. You can delude yourself that some superior power really sees to everything. But if you truly believe that, remind yourself that there's evidence of at least TWO mass extinctions in the history of this marble. Our bunch might be part of the third slate-cleaning!

[DRex]

38. K&R Awesome!!!

[FailureToCommunicate]

39. Reindeer-ian catastrophe?

[FailureToCommunicate]

86. Too obscure...

Malthusian catastrophe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe

[GliderGuider]

91. Malthus the Red-Nosed Reindeer?

[FailureToCommunicate]

95. ...won't join in any reindeer games!

[NYC_SKP]

41. K & Wow.

:wow:

[bertman]

42. Now that's an excellent teaching tool!! Thanks, tinrobot. REC. nt

[glinda]

44. Send this to the President.

[readmoreoften]

45. Maybe the American reindeer used the majority of the island's resources up

writing electronic editorials about how the world has too many reindeer when whole continents of reindeer use less resources than American reindeer do and those same continents of reindeer are dying of AIDS by the millions.

That's also something nobody wants to talk about. When humanity is culled it's always the Africans and the Haitians and the Latin Americans and the Indonesians who need to die off. Meanwhile, European and Australian reindeer are paying their women to have more white reindeer babies.

Why kill off millions? Why not just end planned obsolescence in manufacturing in particular (which means the capitalist mode of production in general)?

[wtmusic]

76. +1. Excellent. nt

[baldguy]

46. What happens to us when our over-extended resources can't support our ever-expanding population?

Simple. That population crashes.

[Matilda]

47. Kick

And passing on to friends.

[begin_within]

48. Very sad story

[TBF]

49. K&R nt

[WillyT]

50. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[txlibdem]

51. K&R... I think the Reindeer is "US" humans... I think.

:hi:

[leeroysphitz]

58. That's it. I'm not eating anymore lichen. n/t

[cate94]

59. K & R

[Locrian]

60. But, but...

But, but... HUMANS are smarter than dumb animal.....uh. Wait. Nevermind....

[Enthusiast]

61. You have to paint a picture for them.

Someone said that. It is true.

[safeinOhio]

66. I once heard Allan Watts compare

the future of humans to yeast.
you put a few yeast in some sweet grape juice. They multiply as they eat the sugar and excrete alcohol (shit) until all of the sugar turns to alcohol and they all die from the poison they have produced.

[Enthusiast]

96. I remember that one.

But only because you reminded us.

[Lasher]

67. Reminds me of the story of Easter Island.

I must say I admire the Chinese for their efforts in population control.

[meegbear]

68. Oh SNAP!

[RandomKoolzip]

71. This will never happen to humans because the FREE MARKET will take care of us!

Right?.......right? (gulp)

[Indydem]

72. I read through this thread and I am amazed.

I can’t decide if it is full of arrogance or ignorance.

I find arrogance in the idea that we, as members of an industrialized society, have anything to do with the overpopulation of the world; arrogance that only the “smart ones” aren’t reproducing. Our birth rate is currently just slightly above REPLACEMENT, which means that once the baby boom generation starts to die, we will suffer from too many homes, too many jobs, and too much responsibility for us to handle the challenges of our economy and our nation.

I find ignorance in the idea that we can’t sustain our population, or population growth into the future. SCIENCE ( that thing birthers, fundies, and religious nutjobs refuse to acknowledge) has always been the solution to our problems. Higher crop yields, better farming methods, better pest control, and all of the bounty of science will allow us to sustain population growth for many generations, until the nations who are resulting in the continuing population boom industrialize and their populations become more sustainable.

I am sure that the idea of science finding a way to deal with our issues will run afoul of some here on DU, who wholeheartedly embrace science when we talk about stem cells, global warming, or renewable energy, but stomp their feet and cry foul at GM crops, pesticide usage, and any other results of science for the increase of farm yields, because big bad evil Monsanto makes these scientific advancements.

Science always has, and always will hold the keys to a better tomorrow for all of mankind. The idea that we should start engaging in population control, start rejecting science because we don’t like the scientists, or seemingly find parallels where none exist (Reindeer? Seriously?) never ceases to amaze me.

[GliderGuider]

74. To those of us who get the analogy

The contents of your post are ample evidence of why we've found ourselves in this fix.

Science always has, and always will hold the keys to a better tomorrow for all of mankind. The idea that we should start engaging in population control, start rejecting science because we don’t like the scientists, or seemingly find parallels where none exist (Reindeer? Seriously?) never ceases to amaze me.

Speaking of arrogance...

[AlbertCat]

89. Speaking of arrogance...

I agree.... and I LOVE science.

Science is VERY VERY successful and has made many soothing advances. But, science being a human idea, it is not perfect, just very good. And it can cause many problems too.

But it is just a method of investigation phenomena, nothing more. Still, it beats religion by many parsecs!

[AtheistCrusader]

110. Humans have the capacity to recognize and practice resource management.

Humans could have intervened and kept that reindeer population alive, indefinitely, for one.

We also could have intervened and removed the artificially introduced reindeer, and saved the island's natural habitat. There's a lot we can do, and the population of humans that has self-interest and awareness of sustainable living, is growing.

We're a minority, for now.

[GliderGuider]

113. The capacity, but not the propensity. n/t

[naaman fletcher]

77. great post. nt

[ozone_man]

78. More food or GM food only exacerbates the population problem

like lichen on this island. The reindeer/island analogy is a great one. It is what happens to unsustainable populations and consumption, which is where we are on this planet. Exponential growth with finite resources leaves no room for nature, which is being reduced to unsustainable populations, mass extinctions, climate change. The quality of life for humans will not be good a hundred years from now, and nature, well, it's depressing to even think about that.

Monsanto is only in the business to make money, not to respect nature or humanity.

[RoccoR5955]

75. We should learn from this. n.t.

[cyberpj]

79. Mention ZERO POPULATION GROWTH to anyone under 40 today

and watch the quizzical look on their face.

As a volunteer worker for that cause it has amazed and depressed me to watch the birth of our current baby worship culture.

Sigh.............

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Yet without consciously seeking it, we are approaching maintenence levels of birth rates already.

Prosperity breeds smaller families. (As a for instance)

Hell, I won't even replace myself, my son is adopted, and was not surrogate/born to supply to me.

[GliderGuider]

114. We are?

The growth rate percentages are going down just enough to keep our net births constant at an increase of 80 million per year... that's an additional Egypt every year.

[stubtoe]

80. Analagous to what happened on Easter Island.

Only there it was the human population that crashed.

[LynneSin]

82. This is another reason why regulated hunting is needed

I say regulated because we do not want to exterminate any populations like we almost did with the American Bison.

I know people freak out when they hear about deer hunting but I know in Pennsylvania, without deer hunting season the deer would overpopulate to the point of starvation.

I know there are people at DU who will not like reading about this. But I come from a background of both farmers and hunters. The farmers want the hunters to come into their property and help thin out the population. PA Hunting laws are setup so that the herds are thinned in a way that will maintain a healthy size population.

And Venison is yummy, but that's just me.

[NickB79]

83. Mmmmm, long pig. nt

[Strelnikov_]

104. Tastes like chicken n/t

[tinrobot]

94. Its not really about hunting...

[LynneSin]

97. I know what it's about

But seriously, it reflects a bit about hunting

[AtheistCrusader]

112. They shouldn't have been on that island to begin with.

That was not a natural herd. 100% artificial. Yes Reindeer can swim to islands, but they didn't swim to that one.

[AldebTX]

85. K&R

[Jankyn]

87. K&R.

[geardaddy]

90. K&R

[WatsonT]

106. Key difference: reindeer don't farm

they have no way of artificially boosting their food supply. They are dependent on what just happens to be there. Whereas we obviously are capable of doing so. If all we had to eat was what nature provided us our population would top out in the millions, not billions.

Likewise as we become more affluent our population begins to shrink. We aren't breeding at, or anywhere near capacity in much of the world. The reindeer reproduced as much as they could. Those posting here most likely are not.

[GliderGuider]

107. Good point.... Humans have the ability to farm,

which involves redirecting the habitat and potential food supply of other species for our own purposes. So when we finally run into limits to our own growth we take down all the other species with us. Farming doesn't eliminate the limits, it just pushes them further out - with more extreme consequences for other species.

The human population is growing by 80 million per year. While that's now a linear growth rate rather than exponential, it does add another Egypt to the planet every year. Given that we are already 50% into overshoot we're still overbreeding.

Fortunately, our simultaneous encounter with climate change and the limits of our oil supply is likely to start reducing food production world-wide within the next decade. This should effectively cap our growth - I expect our numbers will max out at about 7.5 billion in 2030, then begin to decline.

[WatsonT]

115. People have been predicting

a malthusian catastrophe since the 1800s if not sooner.

The predictive power of that assertion is quite low apparently.

[GliderGuider]

117. I'm not predicting a catastrophe

I'm saying that our civilization may be at the limit of its ability to increase food production much further due to two verifiable facts. Nothing says a black swan (or a green three-headed GMO swan) might not come along and "save" us, but the evidence right now is pointing towards limits.

I'd say that we've advanced a little since Malthus' day, wouldn't you? Don't you trust what the scientific community is telling us about climate change and peak oil?

[WatsonT]

118. I trust in the ingenuity of people

especially when faced with famine or economic collapse.

When Britain ran out of wood to fuel their industry what happened? Total collapse, freezing to death? Or did they start using coal?

[The2ndWheel]

119. Seems like you skipped right over the main point

"which involves redirecting the habitat and potential food supply of other species for our own purposes. So when we finally run into limits to our own growth we take down all the other species with us. Farming doesn't eliminate the limits, it just pushes them further out - with more extreme consequences for other species."

That malthusian catastrophe may not have happened to humans, but take a look at a few of the other forms of life that inhabit the planet. It hasn't happened to us because we privatize the profits, and socialize the costs. Which is fine, but we just have to be honest about it. We're not looking to be good stewards, or really manage the planet in some way. In the planetary sense, we're as greedy as any bank CEO, or whoever it is that we're bitching about these days.

[stuntcat]

121. ty

and even the humans are already paying and will continue to more and more. Malthusian is such a big word though, and so brainy sounding, I've heard people use it to argue against the entire planet for many years.