Cotton carrier bags need to used 131 times to be 'environmentally friendly'

[GliderGuider]

Cotton carrier bags need to used 131 times to be 'environmentally friendly'

London, Feb 21 (ANI): Scientists looking at different types of bags and their impact on the environment have found that cotton bags offered by many supermarkets may be less "green" than plastic carriers.

They found that cotton bags may cause more global warming, as a greater amount of energy goes into making a cloth carrier than a polythene one. And that a cotton bag has to be used 131 times before it has the same environmental impact like its plastic counterpart.

And if a plastic bag is re-used as a bin liner, a cotton bag has to be used 173 times - nearly every day of the year - before its ecological impact is as low as a plastic bag on a host of factors including greenhouse gas emissions over its lifetime.

But researchers found that most of us only use the bags around 51 times before they are thrown away.

Another green myth bites the dust.

[Catbird]

1. So keep using them!

I've never thrown any away. Some of them I've been using for almost 20 years. Just wash them when they get dirty. If they're not washable, don't get them in the first place.

[NickB79]

17. From my experience, most cloth bags sold today are poorly made crap

I have over a dozen of them in my cabinet, and maybe 2 are made really well. The rest are the cheap, promo-style ones they throw at you as gifts at every store opening or state fair booth. You use them for a while, but ultimately you put one too many cans of green beans in and the handle tears off, or you put something with a sharp corner in and you get a rip.

The problem is that it seems like 95% of all cloth bags sold today are the ones you see at the endcap at the check-out isle: thin, poorly made and $0.99 each. I would be amazed if one of those lasted 100 times even with careful use.

[UndertheOcean]

2. Well , atleast cotton degrades in the environment orders of magnitude faster than plastic , no ?

[BanzaiBonnie]

3. Who would throw away a cotton bag?

That's weird. Puzzling to me that anyone would throw away a cotton bag.

[GliderGuider]

30. They do wear out.

I've found that the only ones that last really well are ... wait for it ... plasticized.

Re-usable shopping bags act as an eco-shibboleth (as do CFL light bulbs). Not that using them as a badge of membership is a bad thing, but they may not actually be as green as the soccer moms think.

[Kolesar]

33. *That* was imaginative

"a badge of membership"?

[GliderGuider]

34. It's a secondary function, but think about your reaction

When you see someone walking out of a grocery store with a cloth bag and see someone else walking out with plastic. Do you make a little subliminal assumption about the kind of person each of them is?

We all use shibboleths all the time - the way we dress, the way we cut our hair, the way we accessorize, the car we drive. All in the aid of having our self-identity recognized.

[Kolesar]

36. No, I am thinking about driving or dinner or sex...eom

[Tikki]

4. We can do that....

but then, we know how to mend a seam and sew back on a handle...
After awhile these puppies become second nature to you. You grab a couple for wherever you go.


The Tikkis

[davidinalameda]

5. how did you reach your conclusion

that this is a "green myth"

if 173 times is "nearly every day" then 131 times is much less

I shop usually once or twice a week

twice a week would give 104 times using a bag so maybe it would take a year and a half for it to break even as opposed to a plastic bag used once at the store and again as a trash bag

[GliderGuider]

8. From this: "researchers found that most of us only use the bags around 51 times"

I have about 20 re-usable bags now. If I use five bags on an average weekly shopping trip, I have to make them all last 10 years to break even. I have yet to see a bag last half that long.

I think that there are more environmentally responsible things to do. Like buying organic vegetables from a CSA that uses minimal packaging produce (which I do), eating almost no meat (which I do) and driving much less (which I do). Saving a few gallons of gasoline, not eating high-impact meat and buying products that aren't over-packaged will do more for the environment than using cloth bags for 10 years.

[OKIsItJustMe]

10. How did you wind up with 20!?

I have… a half dozen… I'd say.

If I go to a store, and forget a bag (Doh!) I ask for a paper bag (which we use to put our recycling in.)

[GliderGuider]

12. Innumerate ex-wives...

[OKIsItJustMe]

25. Oh well…

…at least they were trying to do “the right thing.”

That’s ever so much better than not trying at all.

[GliderGuider]

27. True enough. Now if you want to see something with a really BIG ecological footprint

look at a divorce... The plastic bags kind of get lost in the noise...

[cprise]

51. Now aren't you smart!

I'm of that age that grew up with nearly every place (yards, streets, forests, beaches) littered with the thin plastic shopping bags. And as their use started to become questioned, I don't ever recall CO2 being a reason for reducing their use. Oil dependence perhaps, but not CO2 or AGW.

Thinking back to the time when both shopping and trash bags were starting to be marketed as biodegradable (well before the carrier bag trend), the big issue with the thin plastic bags was LITTER and wildlife conservation, not CO2, and this thread this ridiculous. Talk about noise...

[SDuderstadt]

6. Since a year is 365 days...

how would 173 times be "nearly every day of the year", unless the author was saying you'd have to use it 173 times per DAY for nearly a year?

[NickB79]

15. Perhaps they assume people go shopping every 2-3 days

At which point they'd use their cloth bags.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. The first newspaper article (the newspaper who actually saw the report) said 'every working day'

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/plastic-fantastic-carrier-bags-not-ecovillains-after-all-2220129.html

But the Daily Mail inevitably has done something to misreport this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358885/Why-need-use-environmentally-friendly-cotton-carrier-bag-171-times-green.html - which the ANI article has then repeated.

Personally, I wouldn't have said 'every working day' either, because it's still not very accurate (that should be about 220 days a year, even allowing for public holidays and typical vacation days). And it's completely irrelevant to work as well.

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. This study appears to be very skewed.

Was this a Koch Bros. funded think tank or some other right wing org that did the study?

I simply do not believe it.

[GliderGuider]

9. How fashionable.

Play the Koch Brothers card on every bit of news that challenges your comfortable preconceptions. GMAFB.

[Vinnie From Indy]

14. I'll be your huckleberry!

It is not so much that this "study" challenges any preconceptions that I may have about green iniatives, it is more that my bullshit meter went off after reading the story from India that is in your link. Just on the face of it, I would offer that this study is unreliable and not valid because the study completely ignores and does not factor in the amount of people that currently use and will use bags of all types already in their possession. This study compares ONLY store bought NEW bags to the thin plastic bags in question. This would appear to make any conclusions about the environmental impact of cotton versus plastic unreliable and highly suspect.

In addition, I do sincerely hope that all fair-minded DU'ers reading this post note your bit of editorial at the end of your OP:

"Another green myth bites the dust."

Could you be any clearer about your outlook on matters of ecology and green iniatives?

Cheers!

[GliderGuider]

19. My views on "green initiatives" are well known here.

I think most of "green initiatives" are simply greenwashing. Shopping bags qualify. IMO so do CFLs. There are other things we can easily do that are far more beneficial to the environment and the global ecology. Things like not having kids, driving much less, eating lower on the food chain, growing some of your own food, buying products that can be repaired (or will last longer in the first place) and rejecting all over-packaged products - all of which I do. I've got nothing against re-usable cloth bags per se, but its always wise to do the numbers on how you're using them and figure out if they're doing any good before you dye them green and wrap yourself in them like a flag.

[Vinnie From Indy]

20. "Shopping bags qualify. IMO so do CFLs."

It is all fine and good to have opinions on such matters, but would it not be far wiser to have informed opinions and a skeptical mind when contemplating studies such as the one you provided in your link? It appears this study has completely convinced you that iniatives to eliminate thin, plastic, disposable bags at the grocery etc. are ineffectual and a "myth". As stated in an earlier post, I find the conclusions of this study highly suspect.

As for your other personal efforts at sustainable and environmentally friendly living, I salute you!

Cheers!

[GliderGuider]

22. This study has convinced me of nothing.

What I believe is that most people think that switching to re-usable bags makes a difference from the very first time you use one - that's the "green myth" I was referring to. this is not the case. if the study is correct, they start to make a difference only on the one hundred and thirty-second time you use one. People are sold sloppy ideas by marketers who may or may not have good motivations, and then come to all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

Anyone who uses a cloth bag 132 times has my admiration - they have just saved the ecological footprint of one plastic bag. If I'm going to get my organic cotton knickers in a twist, I'm going to do it over something of more consequence.

[Vinnie From Indy]

31. "most people think that switching to re-usable bags makes a difference..."

"...the very first time you use one - that's the "green myth" I was referring to."

Would your statement be false in an instance where a person simply uses old bags of whatever type they have lying around? Would that not make a difference far beyond what the study in your OP suggests?

You claim that the study has convinced you of "nothing" yet you follow that statement by citing the very study that has not, by your own admission, convinced you of anything.

Lastly, one would assume that by the very act of posting the highly suspect conclusions of the study in your OP here on DU, you do think the issue is important.

[GliderGuider]

32. The study simply gave numbers to something I've known qualitatively for years.

So from that point of view no, it didn't convince me of anything new.

As far as re-using old bags goes, the sort of person who would do that isn't likely to be prone to the myth I was talking about. There were many people using string bags for years before they became an ecological fashion accessory, and those people were definitely clued in about the need to re-use them many, many times. Quite a few of the people who use them today are similarly clued in, for that matter, but I still run into people like one of my ex-wives. She turned it into a prima facie case of turtle-cide if I occasionally came home with plastic. That reaction told me that she, and others like her, had no real understanding of the issue - they had simply bought the marketing.

What I think is important (please don't put words in my mouth) is that people base their decisions on clear knowledge and real data - whenever it's available - and not simply swallow the marketing hype.

[wtmusic]

11. Gwyneth Paltrow in a bikini

"An Environment Agency spokesperson said the report focuses on the greenhouse gas emissions of manufacturing different types of carrier bags.

'Much of the environmental impact of these bags is associated with the primary resource use and production,' the spokesperson said.

The final report due to be published in the next two weeks, will show that all multi-use bags - plastic, cotton or paper - need to be reused on multiple occasions to justify the additional carbon footprint of their production.

"If they are, then their overall carbon footprint can be less than single use plastic bags," the spokesperson added."

This "study" bites the dust - but I deliver:

http://www.celebuzz.com/photos/gwyneth-paltrow-in-a-bikini-in-barbados/gwyneth-paltrow-bikini-2/

[XemaSab]

45. Too skinny

:P

[bananas]

52. You can tell it's a high-quality reusable bikini because of the metal rings

They don't use metal rings on cheap disposable bikinis.

[get the red out]

13. I've had some of my cloth bags for YEARS

I think SEVERAL of my canvas grocery bags are around 12 to 13 years old and I take my own bags to the store every week. I don't intend on throwing any of them out unless they become completely tattered and the good ones are still going strong after all this time.

When I first started taking my own bags to the store around here (semi-southern "red" state) if I were anywhere besides the food co-op I would have to watch the baggers closely to make sure they would use my bags, and even have to threaten the cashier that anything the bagger insisted on putting in a plastic bag I would ask him/her to delete from my purchase.

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. This is just one area where this "study" breaks down and becomes unreliable

The study completely ignores and does not factor in the number of people that have used bages for years or will simply use bags already in their possession should there be a ban on the plastic bags in question.

In addition, the study does not factor in the cost to the environment in regard to dead wildlfe. How much is the life of an endangered green sea turtle worth? Who would know as the authors of this study do not attempt to calculate several of the secondary costs associated with continued use of plastic bags.

[damntexdem]

18. A short year somewhere -- 173 days.

Cotton bags can easily last for 131, or even 173, uses.

And I'm doubtful about the claim that manufacture of the cotton bag has 131 times the ecological impact of that of the light plastic bag. Still, note that several alternatives are discussed, involving fewer than 131 uses to be more ecologically-sound than the one-use plastic bags (which DO NOT make such great bin liners -- much thicker plastic bags are needed if such liners are to used).

[Wilms]

21. It's a typo. Should have indicated two years...

...on Mercury.

[CRH]

23. So now we are going to have to, ...

recycle our cotton gardening shirts at the price of a little thread, and probably some bartering of honey do's, if it is to be sewn well?

The price of green action is higher everyday, I wonder how many prime garden beds I will have to give up in this barter? Oh well, looks like more of my wife's favorite herbs in place of another variety of tomato. Life is a series of trade offs.

[OnlinePoker]

24. It appears, from the article, that this only refers to manufacture and transport to point of use

I don't see anything about the environmental impact of washing the reusable bags. These bags carry elevated levels of bacteria, molds, and even coliform, and should be washed after each use. I would think this added impact should be considered when dealing with reusable bags.

[GliderGuider]

26. Interesting consideration.

I know a number of people who launder their bags.

[niyad]

39. everybody I know launders their bags--you sound as though the thought had never occurred to you.

[sinkingfeeling]

28. Somehow, I just don't believe that.

[GliderGuider]

29. Based on?

It's obvious that it will take a number of uses to make re-usable cotton bags ecologically competitive with the ultra-thin plastic ones in use today. After all, the cotton has to be grown, harvested, transported and woven into cloth, the cloth has to be transported and manufactured into a bag, and the bag has to be transported to a warehouse and then the store before the consumer gets to put their plastic bottles of green detergent into it. The surprise was that this researcher seems to have calculated that you need to use one a hundred and thirty-two times to have any ecological benefit at all.

I believe him, BTW.

[Kolesar]

35. Disposable bags have to be collected, transported, shipped to China, melted, remolded,

and shipped back home as a recycled product. Or they have to be shipped to a garbage dump, compacted, and buried with diesel powered earthmoving equipment.

There is more to consider.

[cutlassmama]

37. And I just bought 6 of them at the Dollar Store.

[niyad]

38. 173 is NOT nearly every day of 365 days in the year, last I checked

[GliderGuider]

40. Yes, you're right.

If I were you I would definitely use that as a reason not to think about that their research turned up.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Very strange figures - I'd like to see the actual report

It was leaked to The Independent on Sunday, which is the source for the subsequent Mail and ANI articles. And that says this:

It found that an HDPE plastic bag would have a baseline global warming potential of 1.57 kg Co2 equivalent, falling to 1.4 kg Co2e if re-used once, the same as a paper bag used four times (1.38 kg Co2e).

A cotton bag would have to be re-used 171 times to emit a similar level, 1.57 kg Co2e.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/plastic-fantastic-carrier-bags-not-ecovillains-after-all-2220129.html

Why does reusing an HDPE bag once only reduce the 'potential' from 1.57kg CO2e to 1.4kg? Shouldn't it roughly halve?

And 1.57kg CO2e seems pretty high for one lightweight plastic bag. An estimate here thought 200g for the manufacture. I'd like to see how the report arrived at their figures.

[joshcryer]

43. What's alarming to me is that they aren't releasing the study.

[quakerboy]

44. I wonder about the variable involved.

For instance I know quite a few people who double bag with the thin plastic, due to a tendancy to rip, particularly when anything slightly heavier is involved. That would cut it down to 65 uses to break even, in theory.

Washing would probably increase it.

Interesting. I wonder how comprehensive it all is. It seems to me it would be easy to reuse a cotton bag in some other fashion after it breaks down to the point it doesn't work as well for groceries. What effect does it have on the calculation if you shred it up for hamster bedding or rags?

It also seems to discount the end disposition of the bags. I have a hard time believing that the plastic bag which I cannot generally find a way to recycle and does not easily decompose does not have more of an impact on the picture as compared to a bag which will decompose with relative ease in the right situation.

[kestrel91316]

46. I've got 1 bag that has been used at least 1000 times. And the other 3

have all been used at least 30 times each. So I figure I am green enough. Oh, and these bags all have YEARS of service left. The main one needs laundering, but that's it.

[Kaleva]

47. I honestly don't recall seeing anyone use the cotton bags. (other then myself)

I bought a couple over a year ago and tried to use them but they are now garbage bags we keep in the two vehicles we have. The plastic bags from the store are handy for lining the small garbage cans in the bathrooms and we use the paper bags to put the burnables in which are then burnt in our outdoor woodstove.

[csziggy]

50. Around here most shoppers use re-usable bags

A lot of the ones we have are made from some artificial material, not cotton and I like those better. And see my other post about making shopping bags from birdseed and pet food bags - I like that idea!

But we re-use our disposable plastic and paper bags - both for lining garbage cans, plastic for lining our organic bucket (those we only re-use once, then throw away after we empty the organics in a corner of the field), and plastic for bagging up magazines and other stuff we are giving away for further re-cycling.

We've gotten so good at using the re-usable bags that we have to deliberately go in and ask for paper and/or plastic at least once a month so we have bags for the garbage cans, even though we do not throw those out every time we empty the garbage.

[Terry in Austin]

48. Only 131 times? Pff! -- strictly for dabblers.

Been using my trusty South by Southwest canvas totes to tote the groceries for 5 - 6 years, now.

This green stuff, you gotta stick with it!

B-)

[csziggy]

49. I found directions for making shopping bags from bird seed bags

Which are often made from woven plastic strips and are intended to be disposable. IKEA's extra heavy duty bags are made out of the identical material, but are much more boring.

http://curbly.com/stephee/posts/2064-make-a-bird-seed-bag-grocery-tote

Our horse feed comes in similar bags and I've thought of starting a business converting them into carry bags. One of the responses on the site above says they have been using cat and dog food bags for making their bags.

Considering that the original bags are made to hold 30 to 50 pounds, they should do just fine for making grocery bags. And considering that the original bags would end up in a dump, it doesn't matter how many times they are used before discarding - they still got re-used.


As for the OP article - how many times a bag is reusable depends on how well made it was to start with. We have carry bags that are over 35 years old and that have been used regularly. We also have ones that are less than five years old, not used much and that are falling apart.

I forgot to carry a bag into JoAnn's Fabrics one day and thought about buying one of their reusable bags, but they were so poorly made from crappy cloth, I decided not to. The cashier and I made do - I was buying a craft container so we stuffed the rest of my purchases inside it.

So I only buy the really well made bags that will last a long time, otherwise it defeats the purpose!