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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:22 PM
Original message
Solar panels in short supply as demand surges: NY Times.
"With a bill in California that aims to put solar power in half of new homes within 13 years, and with installation incentives in the federal energy legislation passed last week, the future of solar energy in the United States would seem all the brighter. But the future may have to wait, if only a little while.

Photovoltaic panels in Mike Dewalt's backyard, near Peoria, Ill., feed solar energy into his home. The solar panels are now in short supply.
American suppliers for the solar energy industry say that burgeoning demand both domestically and overseas, a weak dollar and shortages of raw material have created back orders of several months on electricity-generating photovoltaic, or PV, panels.

'For all the years I've been doing this,' said Daryl Dejoy, owner of a solar installation company in Penobscot, Me., 'I could get all the solar panels in the world and no customers. Now I have all the customers in the world and no product.'

Executives of American solar manufacturers and industry groups say the global solar market has grown roughly 40 percent annually in the last five years, driven in large part by Germany. Under an incentive program championed by that country's Green Party, German businesses and individuals with solar equipment can sell power they create to utilities at above-market rates. The utilities pass the excess cost on to their customers...

...Germany installed nearly 400 megawatts of solar power last year, Mr. Resch said, while Japan, whose government subsidizes solar energy consumption, installed nearly 300 megawatts. Americans, with far less in subsidies, installed 90 megawatts, most of it in California."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/national/05solar.html?

Note that big word "watts," in the article, as in "watts" at the peak of day when the sun is shining, when there's no snow on the ground, when it is raining, when it isn't too hot.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. I believe that's what the batteries are for.
"at the peak of day when the sun is shining, when there's no snow on the ground, when it is raining, when it isn't too hot."
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. yeah, but...
1) Going the battery route adds significantly to the cost. It's not just batteries, it's the power management hardware that controls battery charging, balancing load between panels, grid, and batteries, preventing battery discharge back into the grid in the event of power outage, etc.

2) It requires additional solar capacity. For instance, if you were going to replace 1 kilowatt of, say, coal generation (which runs 24/7) with solar, you'd need to install about 5 kilowatts of solar, and store 80% of that for use when you aren't getting peak solar flux.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. See here...
...problems like that get solved over time:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=28245&mesg_id=28245

....In the meantime, solar can shave the peak demands for air conditioning, because it creates the power when it is most needed.

It would help things a lot if grid-ties got dirt cheap, though. As far as I can tell, everyone who sells them is gouging. I mean look at the price of a PC power supply and it's obvious that those components could be produced much much cheaper.

I still think a nice big storage tank of solar-heated hot water and a thermoelectric panel would be a better solution than battery storage, but if that's the way the market wants to go, it isn't like anyone can stop it with so weak a weapon as good sense.

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Whatever the reasons, it's expensive.
I like solar, and I want to see people continue to use more of it, but it's expensive. I've heard a lot of people giving reasons why it's supposedly cheap, but I don't see it in the price-tag of any system I've priced out.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Ah yee of little faith
    It's not just batteries, it's the power management hardware that controls battery charging, balancing load between panels, grid, and batteries, preventing battery discharge back into the grid in the event of power outage, etc.



This is a fairly standard "problem" in any rechargeable battery based system (hybrid cars, plug-in hybrids, lap tops, cell phones, co-gen, back up batteries, uninterrutpible power supplies, etc., etc.).

If you look at the problem as a "battery charger" problem -- and then back into the pv module - lots of vendored design solutions and products out there. Plug in your peak watt load, input (dc, how many volts, current range), output (110 V AC, what watts), duty cycle (solar versus battery) and the individual components will almost fall into place.

I remember my son getting this as a homework problem (2 week project, not a "capstone" project) in undergrad EE about 10+ years ago.

But, here is the funny, small world, crazy co-incidence thing. I just got off of the phone with one of my colleagues - and we were just discussing one of these multiple power source units - where a couple of qualities of input charge a battery, and you get ac out of the package.

Design hint - if you have a battery in the circuit - throw all of PV watts into the battery -- and run everything off the batteries through the inverters, etc.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Just sayin, you have to add it to the cost :-)
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. No argument -
but a manufacturer can buy it from a jobber in India or China - or even Campbell CA.
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. In all fairness, your note is outdated and inaccurate.
Edited on Fri Aug-05-05 04:44 PM by Syncronaut Seven
With proper charge and position controllers PV's do nicely in all conditions now, even in the harsh conditions of space. And yes, even in the rain.

As for the predictability of demand? Well DUH... Who couldn't see that coming.

My favorite little solar device is this one http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/61/docserve.asp


Xantrex/Trace C12 Charge Controller: 12 Amp, 12 Volt 3-stage Solar Charge, DC Load and Auto Lighting Controller

The Xantrex/Trace C12 charge, lighting, or load controller is uniquely sophisticated. As a charge controller, it features three-stage charging, user definable voltage parameters, and automatic equalization.

Standard in the C12's load control circuitry are field adjustable low voltage disconnect and reconnect points, along with a five minute low battery disconnect warning.

The C12 also functions as a lighting controller. Lighting run time is adjustable from 2 to 8 hours or can be set from dusk to dawn operation. It is used worldwide in a variety of applications, including remote village lighting systems and automatic outdoor lighting in Africa, Latin America, and Asia.

On edit: $89
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That's 144 watts. It would just about run the lightbulbs over my sink.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. If they were fluorescent lights, they'd use about 1/8 as much power
Edited on Fri Aug-05-05 04:57 PM by htuttle
http://amconservationgroup.com/catalog.aspx?catid=23

And if you get those newfangled LED lights, they use about 1/50th the power of incandescants.
http://www.reactual.com/energy-effiicient-lighting.html

It can't be just about replacing the calories of petrofuels. Conservation is a necessity as well.

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I haven't been impressed with them.
I got very excited with them a few years ago, and replaced most of our bulbs with them (at significant cost, I might add). After about a year, they start to flicker, and burnt out after a couple years. Considering the cost of them, it was a rip-off.

I'm pretty geeked about the LED technology, but it's *really* expensive :-)
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Technology has progressed!
The new electronically ballasted compact flourescents are quiet, cool, more efficient and more reliable! The phosphors have improved greatly too, just look for warm white or soft white.

As with all flourescents, it's the number of starts that have the most effect on lamp life. 15 cycles a day in the bathroom will shorten life greatly. I solved that problem with a 4W twisty CF. Now no-one even uses the bathroom light switch unless they're showering or applying makeup. The nightlight is bright enough.

Also check your power, surges are bad for anything electronic.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. i too replaced 8 of the incadescent lights
in my home almost 3 years ago, and only one has burned out in that time. I found 4 packs on sale, or maybe buy 3, one free. I can't complain.

since they now have dimmable ones available, i may just replace the other lights too.

dp
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Actually LEDs aren't as good as flourescents yet.
They are getting there, but flourescents are more efficient still.

BTW, I picked up a couple of these the other day just as a toy (<$30 for a set of two retail at Costco):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7704671303

...don't expect very bright light from them (despite the "super bright" in the marketing literature they are just 3 white LEDs), and they really aren't worth it except as a toy or just something to find the keyhole at night, but they and the path marker lights like them are convenient at least (no wires) and they get people thinking.



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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. They're good in niche apps like flashlights or path-lighting.
Last I heard, most of inefficiencies had to do with creating white light. The monochromatic LEDs really are super-efficient.
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Yea, Wait until your lugging group 24 lead acids to the village charging
station every day.

I think the idea is to reduce individual consumption as well, sort of a 1-2 punch at the oil barons.

The 13W lamp above my sink gives me 35 foot candles at the work surface, That's just about right, how much light does one need to wash dishes?

http://www.lithonia.com/schools/light_levels/Default.htm
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Nice.
Thanks for the link. I wish there were more "consumer ratings" for these gadgets. Most is strewn across various small forums scattered everywhere, and those posts tend to eventually get deleted during normal server churn. I asked streetprices.com about opening a section on home power generation here and they responded with mild interest:

http://forum.streetprices.com/z/viewtopic.php?p=1457#1457

...we really have to get this industry out of the "back-of-a-comic-book" stage and into a competitive marketplace.

(I wonder if Costco carries this unit. They carry other Xantrex stuff.)

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I've seen solar chargers at Cosco, but they were lower wattage.
Maybe just for cell-phones.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Numbers generally don't lie.
Edited on Fri Aug-05-05 05:47 PM by NNadir
I've posted about this before, but this blurb describing the largest solar facility in Pennsylvania about says it all:

http://www.powerlight.com/company/press-releases/2002/6-14-02-pennsylvania.shtml

The plant is rated at "75 kilowatts." Later it says that the plant "produces" 78,440 kilowatt-hours per year.

Let's go through the math: 78400 kilowatt hours X 3600 seconds/hour = 282 million kJ or 282 billion joules, rounded off. There are 31.6 million seconds in a year, roughly. 282 billion joules/31.6 million seconds = 8.95 kilowatts.

Thus the plant that is presented as "75 kilowatts" is anything but 75 kilowatts. The capacity loading of this plant is about 12%. Any other plant that operated at 12% capacity loading would be shut down, but this one has good public relations value, which is why it exists.

Now, if the capacity loading were between 30%-50% we could attribute the problem to night. However the capacity is no where near that high. The difference must be attributed to weather. This isn't hand waving about technology. This is experimental data.

Solar PV electricity is great for rich people, and to the extent that it works, it is good for the environment inasmuch as it replaces natural gas (the most common peak loading fuel) and coal. However, my experience tells me that solar power has a huge drawback inasmuch as it is used by people to bury their heads further in the sand about issues of energy and global climate change.

I suspect strongly that the surge in demand is entirely attributable to people who want to do the right thing, and not at all due to economics or realistic energetic or environmental viability of these systems. I admire these people for their intentions and hope and expect that I will soon be able to join them in their good planetary citizenship, but I have no illusions that they (or I) will save the day.

Solar PV will do almost nothing to address our current crisis. 400 "megawatts" in Germany is not even the equivalent of a single small coal fired plant, and as noted, the 400 "megawatts" is not really 400 megawatts. Let's get realistic, this power, to the extent it is real, is highly subsidized for public relations value and not because it is economically viable in its own right. Germany will not now nor ever produce all of it's power with PV, and even were it to attempt to do so through the construction of massive silly battery systems it would represent be an unprecedented environmental disaster of the first order.


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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. You can say the same thing about early adopters generally
I suspect strongly that the surge in demand is entirely attributable to people who want to do the right thing, and not at all due to economics or realistic energetic or environmental viability of these systems. I admire these people for their intentions and hope and expect that I will soon be able to join them in their good planetary citizenship, but I have no illusions that they (or I) will save the day.


The people who bought the cute little Honda Insights and the original Prius (the one that looked like a Toyota Echo).

The people who replaced any CRT display (computer, home entertainment) with an LCD.

The early adopters of the incandescent replacement screw in fluorescent modules.

The people who bought LED displays.

And, even the people who replaced wet chemistry, 35mm cameras with digital cameras and Photoshop (my home darkroom equipment has slowly gone away thanks to eBay, and I haven't used my 35mm SLR in over 2 years - do you realize how environmentally degrading all of that photofinishing chemistry is. :( )

Somebody's got to be an "early adopter" - even if it makes no economic sense. Besides - I love my Prius, I love my LCD monitor (gives me much more room for clutter on my desk), and my digital camera, and my LED flashlight.

I just love techie toys.

Yes - I am also an Extra Class Ham operater.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Solar power "early adopters" have been around for 30 years.
When the technology works, of course there will be no problem.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't use it if they can afford it; I am saying simply that there is not enough time for it to have a significant impact on global climate change.

I would, of course, like to be proved wrong, but I'm sure I won't be.

The most successful energy innovation of the last 60 years, bar none, was the nuclear reactor.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Successful????
No new reactors ordered in US since 1973.

Dozens and dozens canceled since then.

Enormous cost overruns on the last few actually built.

Outrageous taxpayer subsidies for the disposal of spent fuel, depleted UF6 and HLW from commercial spent fuel reprocessing...and uranium mine decommissioning.

Hundreds of millions of tax dollars paid to compensate thousands uranium workers for morbidity and death as a result of their exposure to radiation and toxic chemicals associated with the nuclear fuel cycle.

Billions more spent to clean up "accidents" like TMI, Fermi 1 and Browns Ferry....

The current shortage in PV modules is testament to overwhelming demand for this technology.

That is the true measure of "success".

In contrast, the only people clamoring for new nuclear power plants in this country are asshole republicans and their idiot sycophants - and they got their ALL their candy in the Cheney Administration's so-called "Energy Bill", didn't they.



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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yeah successful in any objective terms. (Not in religious terms though.)
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 05:13 PM by NNadir
Idiots of course don't realize that energy, all of it, costs trillions of dollars. They think that pointing to one or two billion dollar failures is impressive. Well so far, fossil fuels is a 200 billion dollar failure and that's Iraq. Solar PV's failure is only measured of course, in a few hundred million dollars, but mostly because no one has been so stupid as to invest more. The nuclear industry, meanwhile produces 100's of billions of dollars of product year after year with very little cost to the human race. Solar only idiots of course selectively focus on a few small nuclear failures by pretending that other energy technologies are NOT failing.

Twits...

Unremarked by anti-environmental anti-nuclear "solar only" twits is the fact that the nuclear capacity of the United States has been increasing. Nuclear capacity has grew throughout the 1990's through improved performance, and now typically runs at close to 90% of capacity. There has not been an unscheduled scram in a nuclear reactor for more than three years.

Since 1973, US nuclear production was less than 100 billion kilowatt hours. In 2004, US nuclear production was almost 800 billion kilowatt-hours. Note that these figures are in unites of energy, not power under ideal operating capacity, and thus are unambiguous except for twits whose minds are too weak to understand the difference between peak power and total performance Thus nuclear capacity has risen by 800% since 1993. Moreover, in spite of not one new plant being added the capacity nearly doubled since 1990.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/nuc_generation/gensum.html

Now, I recognize that the religious opponents of nuclear energy, who clearly are incapable of thinking, hate to attach the word "success" to performance like that, but for everyone else, doubling production in an already existing plant would certainly be characterized as "success." These solar only twits try to say "three mile island" over and over and over and over and over, so we all are stuck in 1979, when people actually believed that solar power would provide an appreciable energy source by "the turn of the century."

Of course the century turned 5 years ago, and the solar only twits probably need to go back to 1979 in order to sound credible. Because in 2005 they have a quarter of a century of balderdash with very little to show for it.

Now, anti-environmental anti-nuclear twits like to pretend that there is just oodles and oodles of solar capacity being installed. They want us to keep those solar rosary beads out and in our fingers. They lie to themselves and everyone else with twittery in which they rate themselves in "watts," and by demonstrating an illustrative inability to compare two integers, even when they differ by factors of 100. For instance, I actually had one such twit announce to me that the Rancho Seco plant (983 Megawatts) was replaced by 2 "megawatts" of solar power. The moron in question reproduced the PR marketing picture showing the (low capacity) solar cells in front of the shut plant. What the moron in question did not tell anyone, as usual, is that solar cells operate typically at 15% of the rated ("rating" in this case being another word for "bullshit") capacity.

After more than 4 decades of "solar only" proselytizing, empty promises and blab and blubber, here are the real energy outputs for various forms of energy:

http://www.cmu.edu/all/Lecture711.pdf

Read 'em and weep. Nuclear power produced 8.0 quadrillion BTU's, representing 66% of the total domestic oil production of the US (12.1 quadrillion BTUs). (Oil imports represented another 31 quads.)

Solar? 0.1 billion quads, all highly subsidized.

Wind? 0.1 billion quads.

The world capacity of nuclear power is about to rise by 15%, to an incredible 410,000 gigawatts operating in the 80-90% capacity range. Proposed reactors will add another 15%, if humanity survives coal apologists, including the retards in the Greenpeace "solar only" crowd who want us to fall back on coal when, as they have been doing decade after decade after decade, they fail yet again to deliver on their big, hollow, global climate change enhancing promises. In contrast, the new nuclear capacity, is not represented by some garbage about what "could" happen or some dumb blurb from Greenpeace illiterates about what might or can represent 25% of world energy demand in 2050, after Bangladesh has gone under water, but by real capacity that is either under construction or on order.

Solar twits with weak minds who understand zero about energy might like to pretend that a "shortage of solar cells," is some kind of achievement. What it really says is that the solar industry is so withered and weak that it can't address a tiny increase in a tiny existing capacity. In the double standard of this crowd, this is some kind of success, while the nuclear capacity that cranks along happily increasing production, producing nearly a fifth of the world's electricity, year after year is a failure. To make this "brilliant" analysis, of course, "solar only" twits, who keep decade after decade crowing how the "cost of solar power is coming down," ignore totally that their pet industry is still a weeny sized industry that has done next to zero to attack the existing and immediate crisis of global climate change.

They think loud-mouthed crying about 30 year old accidents and promising something they say30 years from now will stop global climate change. They are, as always, completely dishonest. In fact they are every bit as dishonest as the coal pushing Bushies and other Repukes who keep signing meaningless and useless "tax breaks" for solar (think trillion solar roofs bill), as if everyone can just whip out 20 or 30 grand in hopes of a 3 thousand dollar tax rebate from a bankrupt government. Well maybe the rich ill educated guys swilling beer in a bar after the Greenpeace meeting can afford these sorts of things using money from daddy's trust fund, but most of the rest of the world is compelled to live in reality. The global climate change crisis is not going to happen when "solar only" scientific illiterates learn the difference between power and energy.

It is happening now.

Anti-environmental anti-nuclear weak thinking "solar only" twits don't want anyone to worry about global warming of course, because global warming cannot be solved by their religious incantations and religious recitations. If, however, they would simply stop saying what they "can" "might" "could" do, and do what the nuclear industry, a huge success, has done by producing, there wouldn't be need for all the promises. Instead there would be praise for their success, and maybe even gratitude for it as well. The solar PV industry would simply exist on a grand scale, and be of huge economic importance, even if, as a fully functioning industry it would lose its need for constant doublespeak and cheer leading. There wouldn't be a global climate change crisis. People would be happily installing their solar cells from Home Depot, as a matter of course. In short, there would be the solar nirvana promised way back in the 1960's and 1970's.

Instead all actually exists is talk, more "could" and "might."

Oh and selective finger pointing too.

Repeat after them: "Chernobyl! Chernobyl! Chernobyl! Three Mile Island! Three Mile Island! Three Mile Island!" If we chant these words enough times, maybe we can really make these disasters seem like the world stopping event that a runaway greenhouse effect would represent. Chernobyl Chernobyl Chernobyl Three Mile Island Three Mile Island Three Mile Island are clearly much worse disasters than say, the melting of every mountain glacier on earth would represent. That's why everyone in the Ukraine and everyone in Pennsylvania is dead. Why, because anti-environmental anti-nuclear twits say so.

Twits...

The "solar only" crowd can't shut up, of course, because they are too stupid to know how stupid continual over promising and under delivering actually sounds. Unfortunately, they can't put up either. And given the immediate collapse of the atmosphere, that's a real problem.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. LOL!!!
If nuclear power is such a "success" - why does the US nuclear industry need $6 billion in taxpayer subsidies to build 3 new plants????

And who promoted these subsidies????

People who believe that global warming is a real and present danger????

:rofl:

Dick Cheney (ChimpCo's foremost nuclear cheerleader) doesn't believe any of that global warming nonsense.

All Unka Dick understands is cash - and that's what he and the GOP got in return for all the candy they lavished on the nuclear industry in Bush's "Energy Bill".

Nuclear power = corporate welfare at its worst.

Finally, here's a pronulcear asshole that REALLY hates Greenpeace...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x28804





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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. If oil is such a "sucess" why do they need $8.5 billion in subsidies?
That is how much they are getting in the 2005 energy bill.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. They don't
n/t
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Nuclear doesn't either.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. that raises the question why there are no private nuke plants.
Nowhere on the planet. It is always public funded research, public funded plant construction, public funded risk insurance, public funded waste disposal, public funded fuel and further subsidies for the operation.
But yes, with the right numbers, nuclear power can be shown to be cheap and lasting forever. It is neither, especially it is no solution ( solar isn't either for that matter).
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. That is changing.
Japan built a two ABWRs which were activated in 1996. Their costs were about $2,000 per KW, and they provide 1350 KW. Future ones are expected to fall to $1,700 per KW because of increased efficiency in building the reactors. Even with the $2,000 figure, that is half of what the current reactors in the U.S. cost.

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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. What do you say about the $8.5 billion in tax subsidies for oil and coal?
Have you even read the 2005 energy bill?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. Cool, Highly-Efficient Tech
I was put off by the looks of the old Priuses. I also figured that
with the long waiting list, I would displace someone who probably
drives more than I do.

There was no wait for the Ford Escape Hybrid, and that allowed me to
replace a RAV4 that was both smaller and considerably thirstier.

I like the looks of the new Priuses better. They look more like an alien spacecraft.
I've been seeing them all over San Francisco lately.

Compact fluorescents all over this house, ever since they became available.
They do seem to burn out as fast as regular bulbs do, no doubt due
to the efforts of the bulb manufactuers' product cheapening departments.
Only places we do not use them are the bathroom, due to the frequent
on/off cycles there is no advantage there. It's one of those vanity
fixtures so CF's would look really strange there anyway. There is
one fixture on the stairs that uses candelabara bulbs which don't come
in CF, and the exterior motion-sensitive lights are incandescent due
to the short duty-cycle.

We've been using LCDs on our computers for a couple of years now.
I still have my CRT's but they haven't been powered up in some time.
I should at least get the damn thing off my desk. It's huge.

The best things about digital cameras are (1) You KNOW if the
picture came out, and (2) never running out of film. Not having
to deal with photofinishing and all the environmental issues is
sure nice too. Then there is the ease of doing color correction
and any other kind of touchup on the computer, and that of printing
it out on the printer or uploading it to the net.

My favorite LED flashlight, in addition to a couple of levels of
white light, also has a number of flashing patterns that allow it
to do double-duty as a distress beacon or a rave toy.

I have an Advanced Class ham license. I need to get around to upgrading.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
47. the private solar plants are almost entirely for warming water;
not for electric power.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Water heaters are usually measured in BTUs, not watts.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. exactly.
The 400MW are just the photovoltaic panels. They do not include the far more efficient heaters.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. The article NNadir posted is about electricity and not heat though.
I agree that solar hot water are economically viable. I disagree that photovoltaic are economically viable.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. PV cells use UV - not visible
and you have UV even on a cloudy, rainy, snowy day.

Why UV? Band gap of Si corresponds to UV wavelengths. And, Si is the photodiode semiconductor of choice.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Yeah, but there is still less UV when there is weather.
Not to walk around with a stick up my hiney, but can we all agree that solar cells perform at less than peak wattage on a cloudy day? I mean, that's just the truth, in visible, UV, or IR wavelengths. It's what happens empirically, and it's what you'd expect.

isn't it?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. As the American worker subsidizes the Oil Markets by being under-
employed and keeping inflation at bay...markets that would have otherwise developed for alternative fuels are not developing.

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. ever heard of this company?
http://www.nanosolar.com/

interesting concept.
dp
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Some of these "plastic cells"

...can apparently process IR light. Meaning they can work off black body radiation after dark. Not sure how much power that can provide though.

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. IR light?
sorry, not familiar with the term. should i be?

dp
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Infra-Red, a bit longer wavelength than visible red light. Heat.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. But what semiconductor do you need to get the right bandgap
for the photovoltaic effect for IR wavelengths?

My recollection from my falling apart Streetman (with the yellow highlighter and red and blue marginal notes) is a compound semiconductor (I am visualizing that graph of optical wavelength on one axis, bandgap on the other axis, and the specific semiconductors in italics - ring any bells - or was that in Sze?).
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Somebody found one a while back, they were very excited.
It turned out that the original bandgap measurements were off, and the true gap was in the IR range. I posted a couple threads, but it was before the site reorg, so I don't know if I can find it.

Indium gallium arsenide, or something like that.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Here it is: Indium Nitride
The Berkeley Lab studied these high quality crystals using optical absorption, photoluminescence, and photomodulated reflectance measurements. They established that the indium nitride bandgap was dramatically lower than thought, only 0.7 eV. And because their collaborators could precisely control the relative amounts of indium and gallium in the crystals, the group soon learned that bandgap width increases smoothly and continuously as the proportions shift away from indium in favor of gallium, until reaching the well-established value of 3.4 eV for simple gallium nitride.

This extraordinary range of bandgaps in a single kind of alloy immediately suggested its use for solar cells: alloys with varying proportions of two of these three elements could bracket the entire solar spectrum from the near infrared to the deep ultraviolet, and every color of light between.

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-perfect-solar-cell-2.html
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Sze - the chart was in Sze!
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. We had a president once who supported solar energy,

with panels on the roof of the White House, and energy conservation, turning down White House thermostats and wearing a sweater. He and his wife symbolized plain living

When President Jimmy Carter ran for re-election, the American people elected an actor known in Hollywood for his B-movies, some starring a chimpanzee. Once in office, Ronald Reagan had the solar panels removed from the White House, because he was indebted to big oil. He and his wife symbolized conspicuous consumption.

Now we have another friend of big oil in the White House but an interesting thing about him is that his home in Texas uses solar energy and in fact is completely off the grid. Wonder why?
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. why?
b/c he has the choice, and the citizen taxpayers of the US pay for it for him, right?

just a guess.
dp
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I doubt seriously it's off the grid
It might not be connected to the electric distribution network, but I'll bet he gets regular shipments of diesel for his generators. So, while technically off the grid, it's not self sustainable.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. sounds like
you're guessing too.

dp
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jdecker Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. They are completely making stuff up, not guessing.
I know that this is just a forum where people are just ranting, but I think you look really stupid when you post completely wrong information.
:evilfrown:
:wtf:
:dunce:
:spank:
:puke:

I'm a fiscally conservative liberal :patriot:, not a fan of george bush, but also not interested in bashing him without facts to back it up.

He's got a geo-thermal heating/cooling system at his house in Crawford. He also has a rain water collection system for irrigation.

He does NOT have ANY solar panels.

I have no knowledge of him owning any diesel generators :sarcasm:.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9208

http://www.ofee.gov/whats/workshop.htm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010825-2.html
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I believe the Crawford Pig Ranch is passive solar
At least, I've read that a few times in various news magazines/sites. No active solar component that I've ever heard of, though.
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