Still using my 40 year old car, tv, telephone, insulation in my home, etc.

[txlibdem]

I'm sure that everyone reading this is still using all the 40 year old stuff, just like I do.

40 years ago...
Asbestos was used for insulation back then. Telephones plugged into the wall (only) and had a rotary dial. Cars had none of the safety and emissions protections. Our TV weighed about 200 pounds and was a 19" tube in a wood cabinet and reception was really crappy using rabbit ears.

But the 40 year old Fukushima reactors are expected to survive their largest earthquake ever and a 30 foot high tsunami with no problems, even though they weren't designed to.

[GliderGuider]

1. Hey, I'm still using my grandfather's axe

Of course the head has been replaced three times and the handle has been replaced twice. But it's still my grandfather's axe.

[cognoscere]

29. Hey, I've got one exactly like that...only it's different. (with apologies to

Cheech and Chong.)

[leveymg]

2. Your TV doesn't threaten to poison an entire country - well, maybe it does.

Here's a toxic screen shot from 40 or 50 years ago. GE Theater, indeed.



The problem is, unlike your old car, house, phone, etc., that nuclear plant had to continue operating safely even under the worst-case scenario - and it didn't. Built-in obsolescence of the worst kind.

[txlibdem]

7. That actually did destroy an entire nation

it just took a while.

[leveymg]

10. Like most cancers. Slow acting.

Slow poison.

[Ghost Dog]

12. P r e c i s e l y

to the point.

Time does not heal all wounds. It just makes some of them easier to obfuscate, to bury and to forget.

[leveymg]

13. Too bad that time doesn't, however, wound all heels.

Just sayin' . . . :shrug:

[txlibdem]

14. Well, if we're talking truth

then time did, in fact, wound that heel. Just a few decades too late to avoid damage to the rest of the world.

To steal a phrase, just sayin' :hi:

[jdlh8894]

3. See your point ---- but

I drive a'82 Chevy Chevette and a '83 Chevy20 Van(High Top)
Still use a '65 Fender Mustang
along w/a ' 66 Martin D28

So I guess some things weren't supposed to last.

[dixiegrrrrl]

4. I'm still using my 65 year old

body...so there.

[jdlh8894]

6. My wife likes when I use my 65 year old body...so there!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[leveymg]

8. I wouldn't touch that line . . . well, you know what I mean.

Friday evening, just about time for America's second favorite sport. Time to do some 12 oz curls. Here, let's have a cold one.

:toast:

You too, dixiegrrl!

[dixiegrrrrl]

20. Thanks....we survived...maybe...another week!

:beer:

[FiveGoodMen]

5. "expected to survive"

Seen any pictures?

[MineralMan]

9. Hell, I've got my grandma's old oak wall phone hooked

up and hanging by the back door. Every once in a while I answer it, just for giggles.

[enough]

11. Not sure what you mean by "survive." That they still exist? (nt)

[AndyTiedye]

15. They Weren't Designed to be Run on Plutonium, Either

They are running a 40-year-old nuke (#3) on a plutonium fuel mix
that it was never designed for.

Kind of like running a Model T Ford on nitro, innit?

[txlibdem]

17. Model T on nitrous

That's an excellent way to describe it.

Love it.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. More like running it on a ethanol blend.

The plutonium mix isn't more powerful, or hotter, or anything like that. It's simply a way of recyling and consuming the output from these reactors years past, that was extracted and supplied to the nuclear bomb making industry.

Because over time, all 'normal' uranium fuel rods reach the same equilibrium level of plutonium. That was the point of these reactors: dual use as weapons production. There are designs and fuel types that do not create weaponizable plutonium or other dual use materials, but, shockingly, they are not pursued. The MIC has no interest in them.

[GKirk]

16. Not sure of your point...

...it did survive the earthquake, unscathed if I'm not mistaken. And it wasn't the reactor that wasn't designed to survive the tsunami it was the seawall.

[txlibdem]

18. The tsunami knocked out the diesel backup generators

I see your point about the reactors themselves but there is a chance that one or more of the containment pools could have been damaged by either the earthquake or the tsunami. I'm talking about the ones where they seem to be having trouble keeping the fluid level up, I forget the unit numbers.

My point was about the backup generators taken out by the tsunami. But the larger point in the OP is that we don't use any of the 40 year old things mentioned in said OP, humorous anecdotes aside. No. We replace those old cars, old refrigerators, old TVs, etc. It's time that we started to replace all of the existing reactors with Generation IV nuclear power plants that are passively safe, mass produced.

[GKirk]

21. It's a little tougher

to replace a billion dollar nuke plant than a TV. Tougher to toss in the dumpster too.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. That massive concrete pumper they are bringing in will probably tell the tale.

I'm guessing the pools aren't too badly damaged (though #4 does look pretty bad) and the fuel is simply so hot at this point, they can't pump in enough water with the stuff they have to quench the fuel, and gain ground on filling the pool, over the water immediately flashed into steam.

If that thing can't dump in enough water, then we'll know for sure the pools are leaking.

It certainly remains a possibility.

[txlibdem]

26. That's a new development

I hadn't heard about that. I hope it succeeds.

[FBaggins]

19. Actually... We use 40year old infrastructure all the time.

It's not so much the age of the plant that's the issue, it's the design.

We've learned a few things in that amount of time.

[txlibdem]

22. That's kinda my point

... with the cars and the tvs, etc.

As our knowledge improves we should be constantly improving the design of everything. This is what we do with bridges and skyscrapers. Every new thing we learn helps us to improve (unfortunately most of what we learn is from failures of said bridges and buildings). So we should learn our lessons from the disaster in Japan and move on. We should begin a full scale replacement program for all the old reactors, starting with the most vulnerable first, the oldest next and move on to the less efficient ones and finally the rest of our current fleet of nuclear power plants.

The anti-nuke zombies halted all new nuclear plants and gave us global climate change in the bargain because the utilities has to supply the electricity somehow and coal was the only option left on the table once nuclear is out.

One good thing is that people can now see how disastrous the anti-nuke policy is, unfortunately it will keep getting worse in coming decades and millions will be displaced and may even die because of these tools of the coal and gas industry. Yet the zealots keep wailing at the wall and shaking their "good book" in the air for effect. The more they froth at the mouth the more I know that we need to push these tools off to the side and get to business solving global climate change with renewable energy projects, solar plants the size of the mojave desert, wind farms that stretch from West Texas to the Canadian border and wherever else it makes sense, tidal and wave energy, geothermal power plants, and at least a doubling of nuclear power in our energy mix. We need to get 40% of our energy from nuclear and the rest from renewable sources. We need to switch to electric vehicles as fast as possible and burn bio fuels in whatever internal combustion vehicles that remain, until they too are replaced with electric vehicles.

In addition, we need to improve the efficiency of just about everything we do and everything we use.
+ Plasma TVs burn up to 600 watts while LED TVs only about 140 watts or less (50" or 55") while still delivering excellent blacks and vibrant colors.
+ LED light bulbs (which save you money in the long run even if you pay $60 apiece for them) - no mercury filled CFLs needed.
+ Passive solar design for homes and commercial buildings, super-insulated building envelope, and daylighting will reduce lighting, heating, and cooling costs up to 80%.
+ Geothermal heating and cooling saves 50% to 80% off your energy bill but only costs about 20% more than "traditional" systems.

We don't have to live in a mud hut and commute on the back of an ox to save energy. We don't have to lose any of our modern appliances and conveniences. We just have to do everything a little bit smarter and take advantage of the free energy that is all around us wherever we can.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. I have a 100+ year old rifle capable of apple-coring a moose from stem to stern

and it is not a danger.

Well, I suppose it is to animals, anyway...


But your point is fair, and I now oppose extending the licenses on these Gen1, Mark-1 containment reactors from the 70's. Clearly the design is inadequate, and the industry is lacking in emergency procedures and equipment.

It's a bit like the Deep Horizon well rig disaster. The oil companies haven't really innovated in safety gear, or repair systems, or oil cleanup techniques, gear, or manpower, while focusing entirely on innovation in drilling deeper and harder to fix places. When something goes wrong, it's too late to invest in cleanup technologies and ideas, and training new manpower, etc.

That shit has to be in place FIRST.

[madokie]

27. So are you saying to us to

just get over it. Nuclear is not safe as this incident has so obviously shown. Oh when it works and everything is fine no big deal but when something does happen it happens in a very big dangerous way.

screw nuclear energy, txlibdem

[txlibdem]

28. Screw nuclear energy you say?

I'll have to reread my posts to find where I said, "just get over it." What I said is that we must learn from our failures just as we do from our successes.

I also put the blame for global climate change on the simpletons who allowed themselves to become the tools of the coal and oil industries.

Which side are you on? The zero green house gas side or the coal and oil side?

[madokie]

30. I didn't say you 'said just get over it,'

thats what the message I took from your post was and indicated that in the way I said what I said. "Simpletons huh," I wish you were saying that to me personally cause I've got your simpleton :hi: :-)
Pay attention to whats being said m'k

Its not a one side of the road or the other as you imply either.
Oh yeah, which side am I on, well it damn sure isn't the nuclear will save us side, you can bet on that.

[txlibdem]

31. Thanks for the straight answer

I appreciate your reasoned response, I just happen to disagree with you about it being one side or the other. I think it only fair that I spell out exactly why I believe it is, indeed, a one side or the other.

History shows clearly that ending the construction of nuclear power plants has directly caused hundreds of coal fired plants to be built. There is no better evidence than facts from history. Our energy consumption has only gone up over the decades and the utility companies have had to build these nasty coal plants because anti-nuke zealots were able to frighten enough voters into being against nuclear power. Ergo, being anti-nuke has been historically shown to benefit only the coal industry. One side or the other, whether that was their actual intent or not is irrelevant. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You have read dozens of OPs from these anti-nuke zealots using the terrible human tragedy in Japan to further spread their message of fear and hate. They point out the flaws of the Fukushima Daiichi reactors as if that is what America would be building next to your child's school. Where is the logic there? I haven't seen anyone who is truly in favor of nuclear power state that we should build more of those reactors **that were designed in the 1960s** ever. The science of nuclear power has improved just as the auto industry, computers, bridge construction, or any other high tech industry has. We will never build those admittedly flawed type of plants again. Never. But inundating the boards and blogs with scare tactics that say, "see, see how dangerous it is!" is only showing either the devious cunning or the lack of knowledge of the poster. It is wrong to use a human tragedy to further an agenda. It sickens me.

If you look at my journal you will see that I state clearly that the nuclear plant construction industry has made nuclear far more expensive than it has to be. I wish that industry would be closed down or severely reigned in because they have made greed their prime motivation for decades --and the planet has suffered because they handed the anti-nuke crowd a powerful weapon against clean, zero-carbon power: money.

I have posted a number of times my preference for Thorium cycle nuclear power because 1) it cannot be used to make nuclear weapons, and 2) the world has a 1000 year supply of Thorium versus only 100 years left of Uranium --even at today's usage levels, and 3) the amount of Thorium required to provide enough energy for your entire lifetime would be the size of a marble --because Thorium can be turned into 200 times the amount of energy as Uranium pound for pound, and 4) Thorium results in far less waste to store and the waste is not as long lived due to the Thorium cycle.

I have also posted a number of times my preference for mass produced reactors, or at least mass produced reactor components. This is IMO the only way to end the price gouging of the construction industry. SMRs could be the solution to breaking the grip of the greedy construction companies on our energy prices. Pebble Bed Modular Reactors could also be, despite South Africa's failure to properly focus their research efforts to successfully produce one (We don't buy tvs, stereos, appliances, cars, airplanes, ships, construction equipment, or anything highly technical from them so am I surprised that they could not pull together the management and scientists to be successful at PBMRs? Nope. No offence intended S.A., I'm just stating my opinion on why your PBMR program failed).

You state that you are against nuclear power. I wonder how you would feel if you lived in the region of the country that is being destroyed by mountain top removal, or where one of the 137 coal ash ponds are polluting the ground water, or downwind from a coal power plant where you get diseases and toxic pollution every time the wind blows your way.

[madokie]

32. I practically live under a coal fired power plant

it may be three miles away, another mile and we have a pair of natural gas plants then a few more miles we have hydro. One river three lakes plus a pumped storage lake. Most of the electrical power we use here where I'm at is from hydro, most of our coal power is transfered out of state, Arkansas and to the western part of Ok.
All the pollution in the air isn't from coal, many things dump a lot of shit in our air. I'll repeat it is not an either or situation we're in here. Either or meaning nuclear or coal. After all we do have alternates, after all we do have the potential for geo thermal that hasn't really been studied and expanded on like it could.

After what I'm witnessing in Japan today I'm more against nuclear than I ever was and I never thought that was possible. You see when nuclear is going ok its still not clean. If you don't believe me go talk to the people in the four state area, the Navaho's to be more precise and see what you come up with. The thing with nuclear is any one of our nuclear power plants can cause a loss of a large section of our country to inhabitants, when nuclear goes bad it goes bad in a big way, way worse than any of the other forms of producing our energy.. We've dodged a bullet with nuclear on several occasions and I wonder when it will be we're not so lucky.

You like nuclear go for it but don't be putting those of us who don't like nuclear down by calling us names and or talking down to us. If you'll notice its almost always the pro-nuclear people who use personal attacks on us and not the other way around. I call the nuclear industry Liars and I stay with that but that is a little different because they've proven themselves to be liars on so many occasions.

Wait until the dust settles in Japan and they get this under control if its even possible before you start saying that's no big deal either, if you would.

Anyways lets not let a little disagreement turn into hate and discontent rather lets both try our best to learn from each of our differences of opinions and we'll all be the better for it.

The poster who shall remain un-named has pretty much poisoned the well for having a decent energy discussion here on the E/E forum and I agree I've gotten caught up in it also on occasion but anyways you get my drift I'm sure.

its bedtime for this old man, see ya tomorrow, in the meantime get a good nights sleep, if not for you for me then as I know what my night is going to be like. Due to PAD and my insistence of trying to continue to do the work I used to have no problems with comes back to bite me in the ass during the night time hours when I should be sleeping so I get very little. Hell maybe thats whats wrong with me :-), sleep deprivation. But I'll take it compared to the alternate.

peace :hi:

[txlibdem]

33. I'm giving you a pass on that last post due to it being late and perhaps you didn't actually read

my post. Sorry if I touched a nerve with that 'simpletons being used as tools of the coal industry' wisecrack. I meant that in the broad sense, as in a wide swath of voters nationwide are simpletons and were whipped into a fear frenzy by the cunning and duplicity of the agents of "Big Coal," halted all nuclear plant construction, and definitely, historically proven, has resulted in hundreds of coal power plants being built.

I believe in truth, not taking as gospel the outright lies coming from the media outlets, especially since I know that all of these media outlets are owned by some wealthy evil thief who got where he or she is by lying, stealing, thieving, conning people, and generally skirting if not outright breaking the law every slimy step of the way up the economic ladder. These aren't the people I choose to trust with my grand children's future. And sometimes people don't want to hear truth, preferring soothing lies or preferring to avoid actually studying the science and engineering behind all of the options that are now on the table.

Your state sells the electricity from coal power plants to a nearby state. If people like me were to control our energy future all of the coal plants would be shut down as they are replaced by renewable energy with adequate storage, and then your state would suffer economically. Correct me if I am wrong but does that not mean that you have a proven economic incentive to be against nuclear power? I don't know if you have friends or relatives working at that coal plant but that is also possible, and if so you have an emotional reason to be against nuclear power.

I like how you bring up the Native Americans being against mining on their land. I wonder if they would be in favor of their lakes and rivers being polluted with Lead, Mercury, Arsenic, Benzene, Barium, Uranium, Thorium and a few other nasty toxic chemicals --all courtesy of that beautiful coal power plant you have. I wonder if they would be in favor of entire mountains being flattened and the toxic chemicals allowed to drain away into streams and rivers with absolutely zero controls. I wonder if they would approve if one of their towns were washed away by a deluge from one of the hundreds of toxic coal ash ponds that are an ecological disaster waiting to happen.

Hungary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjf4e7ZAc9M - the toxic flood from coal was so dangerous that "it was eating through people's clothing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEMWh6EjJoY - another view of the toxic devastation from coal

Tennessee:
http://earthjustice.org/features/campaigns/river-runs-black-the-devastating-coal-ash-spill-on-the-emory-river
http://www.kftc.org/blog/archive/2008/12/23/huge-500-million-gallon-coal-ash-floods-clinch-river-in-tn
http://current.com/groups/duplicate/89659783_tennessee-ash-flood-larger-than-initial-estimate.htm
"The TVA released an inventory of the plant's byproducts on December 29, 2008; it included arsenic, lead, barium, chromium, and manganese.<31>"
... from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill
... but the coal authority there said it is still safe!

Georgia:
"Georgia flooding sparks worries about coal ash ponds"
... from: http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/09/georgia-flooding-sparks-worries-about-coal-ash-ponds.html

North Carolina:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNq08lMj4ns

Alabama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5KYcIOeKfM - Maddow begins talking about Tennessee then segues to Alabama

Kentucky and West Virginia:
"Massey Energy has been fined $20 million for hundreds of violations of the Clean Water Act for after spilling coal waste into mountain streams in Kentucky and West Virginia." ... from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYQBbtU_e9Y (nice blue grass music)

But you like coal and you hate nuclear power. That's your right. I hope you can live with the consequences for America and the rest of the world.

[madokie]

34. You see I didn't say anywhere at anytime that I like coal

Putting words in my mouth or on my keyboard isn't too cool

So with that I'll leave you to your spiel :hi: