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jbutsz Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:10 PM
Original message
1,000 Times Too Many Humans?
Nov. 25, 2003 — A study that compared humans with other species concluded there are 1,000 times too many humans to be sustainable.

The study, published in the current Proceedings B (Biological Sciences) by the Royal Society, used a statistical device known as "confidence limits" to measure what the sustainable norm should be for species populations. Other factors, such as carbon dioxide production, energy use, biomass consumption, and geographical range were taken into consideration.

"Our study found that when we compare ourselves to otherwise similar species, usually other mammals of our same body size, for example, we are abnormal and the situation is unsustainable," said Charles Fowler, co-author of the paper and a lead researcher at the National Marine Mammal Laboratory, a division of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20031124/humans.html?ct=7660.85615455271s
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Learn this word:
Permaculture.

See you on the other side of Peak Oil my friends! Hope you make it!

www.earthaven.org
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piece sine Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. so what does the "Study" prove?
War is good? Genecide is better? They condemn "sustainable growth" so that's out! Know what? I'm just going to lead my life and enjoy the blue and sky and sunshine. According to the authors, some time in the 21st Century, we're all going to start killing one another anyway. Why bother to publish this stuff?!
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Permaculture
is the study and implementation of sustainable infrastructure that work within natural systems instead of against them.

It isn't about war or genocide. The term "sustainable growth" has been hijacked to mean whatever is convenient in the next fiscal quarter.

We bother to publish so that, when our oil-based wasteful society falls apart, people will understand why it's happening.
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I'm with you!
Building an herb spiral is the 1st outdoor thing I will do once I manage to buy a house...
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Flightful Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another Chicken Little
Remember that guy who predicted famine in the USA in the '90s?
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes.
And the only reason why there wasn't was because of petroleum-based pesticides and efficient systems of transport & refrigeration that also require petroleum.

The system we live in is based on a temporary energy subsidy from nature. When that runs out, this country is going to have some serious problems.
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree with brainshrub
Its eventually going to happen. It might not be for 100 or even 1000 years but it could be in the next 5 or 10 years. All you can do is prepare. Read about wilderness survival. Get the tools needed to hunt and fish. Learn what you can about survival because it wont always be as easy as the drive through McDonalds. Gardening is always a good thing to know, and canning and preserving food. I gotta be the only 24 year old that cans his own foods on a regular basis.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Population decline actually
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Population Crash is what some are predicting.....
Start with http://dieoff.org/ for the overview. The earth's population has grown due to the mining of unrenewable resources. Add to that the inevitable march of the microbes...

Drug resistant TB, Malaria, AIDS and Flu. Remember that the challenge is not finding the means to treat all of these plauges but the political will to pay for the treatment. In short the Human Race is in for a bit of a reality check.

Then look at the Sustainability Webring

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. wrong
your links both both state projected declines in rate of population growth, which would effect a decline in actual numbers in a more distant future, way too late! In the meantime the oil & much else will decline to the point of uselessness. Your childern will have less than you and their childern less than them, unless they are members of some warlords inner circle. Odds on bet is that our piggish way of life is doomed. I just think it a cosmic crime that we take down 3.5 billion years of life with us.
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pau1f0rd1 Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. no evidence
oil & much else will decline to the point of uselessness

we have way more than enough oil and other fossil fuels for hundreds of years. No serious environmentalist doubts it.
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Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. ha ha hahhah ha haha ha
These ex-oil people say otherwise.
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/

Don't bother coming around my place when the lights go out.

Barry Silverthorn
Executive Producer
The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream

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zeaper Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Nice “Chicken Little Chart” but
How is it that the lack of oil will cause black outs? Very little electric power is made from oil.

In summary this chart is only realistic if no substitute for oil is found. We have developed all kinds of substitutes. None are currently being used because they cost more than oil (for now).
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. reasonable but
I dont know if reason is a vauluble commodity here. Seriously you are so right. there are other sources or energy and the will be used when they become economical and they will become more economical when the economies of scale come to play.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. does your defination of economical include environmental impact?
coal & nuke have their known baggage. Our current renewables cannot support current usage much less growth. What's left? We've allowed Plutocrats to build us a house of cards. It's only a matter of time. Maybe 10, maybe 50 yrs, the gluttony known as the American Way of Life will be concidered greedy madness in future histories, if there is any such thing.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. oil is more than go juice
eliminate plastic from your life, what't left?
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Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. All energy will be affected
"How is it that the lack of oil will cause black outs? Very little electric power is made from oil."

Let me educate you. Much of the electricity in North America is generated by natural gas. Natural gas production (extraction) is currently peaking in North America. It is very difficult to ship natural gas from other parts of the world, we don't have the infastructure, and it has to be cooled, which yields less net energy. Add to this, the fact that natural gas is also used as feedstock for fertilizers and consider what happens to the food supply. Would you rather sit in the dark or eat?

"In summary this chart is only realistic if no substitute for oil is found. We have developed all kinds of substitutes. None are currently being used because they cost more than oil (for now)."

None of the substitutes, individually or as a whole, that are realistic, are capable of replacing oil and natural gas on the scale that we use them currently. None of them can be revved up in time to be of use on that scale. Also, if we wait until there is an energy crunch and they become economically feasible, the economy will be in such a state of decline that there will be no funds available to put alternatives into production.
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zeaper Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Not True
Last I heard about 60% of our Power comes from Coal, 20% is Nuclear, and the last 20 % is mostly Hydro with natural gas and the alternatives making up the difference. By any one’s count natural gas is hardly generating “much of the electricity in North America”.

As for your speculation that the substitutes for oil can’t replace oil in a timely fashion-well that all depends on how fast the oil disappears. It’s not all going to go away tomorrow and as soon as the price gets high enough money will start to talk and those substitutes will be rapidly deployed in the name of the almighty dollar. That’s not to say it will be a smooth transition-but it certainly won’t be the end of the world.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's not about total amount, but cost to extract it
You are right in stating that we theoretically have enough oil on the planet to burn for hundreds of years. The problem is that most of that oil is locked up in areas that are inaccessible to exploration, in protected areas, or is in a form very expensive to extract (oil shale, for example, costs much more to process than simple drilling into oil fields). As the easily accessible oil in the Middle East, Venezualan and Russian fields drops, it will start to cost more and more to extract it (you have to counter-pump in saltwater to maintain pressure). Eventually you will reach a point where the oil is just too expensive to extract on the massive scale we see today. This is the point where it becomes too expensive for the average person to fill up their tanks with gas, or burn fuel oil to heat their homes.

It's like the old textbooks I used to read in elementary school that said there was enough gold on the planet for everyone to have a pocketful of the stuff. Too bad most of it is locked up in nodules on the ocean floor a mile down. Just too expensive to justify mining it.
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I want my pocketfull of gold
Where do I find that text book? You are either much older or somewhat younger than I . My textxbooks never made that claim and my college aged childern never had that claim in their textbooks. I am making a huge assumption that you were being taught an economic principle that at a very simple level means that if you continue to raise the value of an item, that item will always exist. Again this is very broad and without explaination, that would take a semester.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Gold is found in seawater at concentrations of roughly 1.1E-5 ppm.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-03 01:58 AM by NNadir
This problem shows that there are roughly 50 million tons of gold dissolved in the sea: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~zhanghao/CSC400/Estimation_Question.pdf

It also demonstrates the way in which the isolation of existing resources is often not economic.

I don't know why, BTW, you would expect an ordinary textbook would include calculations of the total mass of gold in the earth. It is an esoteric point and a textbook that includes this information would either be highly specialized or simply running off on a somewhat random tangent, as many textbooks do.

Some further comments on economics and the cost of isolation:

The element Scandium has excellent properties that would make it an ideal material for the construction of aircraft. Unfortunately the element, although widely distributed, has no ore concentrated enough to make it available commercially. Until the invention of the Hall process using electrolysis of a cryolite (Alumunim flourite) bauxite (Aluminum oxide) melt, Aluminum, one of the most common elements on earth was almost impossible to make as the isolated metal. The metal was so rare that Napoleon III had tableware made from it to demonstrate his enormous wealth. The element Titanium from which the SR-70 spyplane was made, also at enormous expense is also an incredibly expensive element owing to the difficulty of isolating it. The process used to isolate the material for the spy plane involved Calcium reduction of volatile titanium tetrachloride in high temperature bombs. The associated costs of this process is why the element is not used for commercial aircraft. (I note that if the girders of the WTC were made from light, strong, heat resistant titanium, they'd still be standing today.) A recent advance in preparation of titanium probably means it will a commonly used material in the future.

In my opinion, it is silly and dangerous to chase after more oil. There is plenty of readily available Thorium and Uranium to provide for all of the earth's energy needs for the next several thousand years. The synthetic precursors found in oil are also available by synthesis using other carbon sources, including biomass.

The reason oil is being chased with so much violence and risk is because it offers plunder possibilites to Cheney, not because it is a good or necessary commodity to use.
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Its a good theory
but it is only a theory, lets look back on a few books that were hailed for their prophecy. The Population Bomb (author escapes me), and Silient Spring, Rachel Carson. These two represent the same thread of thought and of course have been proven wrong just by the fact we are still here. I was recently on the web site of the priarie writers circle and read several thoughtful articiles writen by people with doctorates. One of those Dr. espoused the view that although Norman Borloug has in fact saved several Billions of people from starving (yes Billions) it was at a cost to high for the planet to pay. If this is the kind of thing that passes for thoughtful scholorship I think I shall pass
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. stop gap measures & luck
Your religous belief in technology is touching. Try studying biology sometime. Now comes the night.
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Biology I understand
and we have found a common language. The facts to date tell us that we are able to support a lot more people. The unused aerable land has hardly been tapped, and if food production technology slows to a pace of the early 80's we can feed everyone.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. "unused aerable land"
Is that the land that is currently covered by forests, grasslands, and savanna vital to a healthy environment? Yeah, no biggie to clear that out of the way, it has no real value except for clean air, clean water, wildlife, lumber and land to build houses on.
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. you are right
and you make my point. What I am saying is that other than south america where millions of acres of rainforest have in fact been taken to produce soybeans wheat and cotton in the last 30 to 40 years, even that has slowed dramaticly because the yields of the above crops have grown been just as dramatic. That is the WHOLE point. This is not a zero sum equation. You have the false notion that if we need to grow an extra 10% of food to feed 10% more people that we need 10% more land. If you look at South America which is as close an example that applies, you will find that they have increased yeilds, and the South American farmers find that it is more economical for them the be more effiecient in their operations and reduce costs and increase yields. than it is to clear land to bring into production. This is why I disagree with the basic argument. Your either dont want to acknowledge these facts or just dont understand the economics at play
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. more bad technology
So, how shall we increase these yields? With presents from Monsanto , poisoning everything arround with Roundup? Perhaps some other genetic funnybuisness with inadequately studied long term effects? The green revolution itself was a mixed blessing, considering the excessive amounts of fertilizers used and the runoff associated, not to mention the petrochemical connection. I'm afraid that I do understand the "economic at play". Besides, using your example, would that SA farmer not want to increase his income by putting more land up cultivation using his more efficient techniques?
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. You really need to take a breath
Roundup, I can think of no other pesticide invented over the last 50 years that is less enviromntaly benign than Roundup. It has the same as NO soil 1/2 life, it has never been found in ground water, toxciity to fish, fowl, mammals, and intsects is the same as zero. OK? Biotech, lets look at one use, BT for growing Corn(maize). BT has allowed growers to increase yields and at the same time reduce the amount of those dreaded petro chemicals by Millions of tons. Farmers have been waging war with the european corn borer for more than 40 years and up till now were forced to blanket treat millions of acres with pesticides. You have not even 1 study that points to any problems with the biotech products being used today. Not even the most rabid enviromentalist has tried to use scientific research to question the use of Biotec. The only thing that has ever been printed is nothing but scare tactics just like is being used now. Back to economics, it is only feasible for one person to manage X acres, just because you could bring more acres into production it would take more people to do it, hence it is easier to improve efficincies use the same amount of people and garner greater return on investment
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. monarch butterflys
are affected by pollen from BT maize blown on to nearby milkweed, which commonly grows adjacent corn field. 50% mortality, 50% stunted. Ladybugs & lacewings(both benefical predators) also seem to be affected.
If the economics is as you say why is America's farmland being taken over by coporate farms? Or do you think thats a good thing? Also, should small farmers be held hostage to monopolies for their seed?
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4farmgun Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. This won't be believed
but I am very aware of the monarch butterfly reasearch you have quoted. First this study was done at least 5 years ago. Next, the reaserchers provided corn pollen as the only source of food to a controlled population, I will take your stats at face value they seem right to me. This proves precisley the saftey of this technology. In a controlled population with corn pollen being the only source of food, mortality is only 50%, now try to extrapulate that to an actual field situation, along with the information that in fact there are precious few milkweeds along corn fields of the portion of the cornbelt that produces 70% of the corn, and you can see that this technology is in fact very safe. Next, you are going to have to define 'corporate farm' my brothe and his wife are in that catagory, both of their children are in college and they are in fact one of those filthy corporate farmers, a husband and wife making a living farming the land, I know discusting, but you don't know me and I won't have to bare the embaresment of meeting you, If my sister was a prostitute my life would be much easier. Last, there has never been a single case of anyone being forced to buy anything. In todays market it is very simple so spend anywhere form $15 per bag for corn all the way to more than $200 for a bag to plant the same acerage. It is still a free society although who knows how long. OBTW the monarch study you refered to can maybe be accessed thru the University that did it Iowa State. Try isuia.edu and cruise thru their entomology web page
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. unintended concequences
The real point of the monarch study is the unintended concequences that are the all too possible results of coporate science. Products are rushed to market with only enough reseach to provide acceptence by agriculture arthorities who are closly tied to buisness interest. Potential long term problems are blown off as not proven, as it could take years to see the effects, and time is money. Introducing new genetic elements into the environment is akin to the introduction of invasive species, a really big problem for native species.
No, I don't now your family's situation and if the are small farmers who are incorporated for buisness reasons, fine. If they are coporate sharecroppers they have my sympathy. What I'm talking about are the Big Guys who increasingly dominating American agriculture and on their way to becoming monopolies.
True, nobody has a gun to their head at the market(yet). But in the case of BT what of the farmer who wishes to grow non-Bt maize but finds his crop currupted by BT pollen?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I have to agree with 4farm on this one
The monarch study was done under circumstances you would almost never find in the field, ie artificially elevated pollen levels being fed continuously, while in the wild that level of ingestion would be very hard to find in the larvae.

As to the economics, I can say my father is as small-farm as they come (150 acres), and he's been using BT corn and Roundup-Ready soybeans for years with good results, by his own choice. The increase he pays for the seed is more than offset by the money he saves on pesticides, herbicides, diesel fuel, and manpower. In fact, I noticed an odd result a couple yrs back with the GM soybeans. Neighbors who planted standard soybeans have to cultivate between the rows often to uproot weeds, while my father only had to spray his fields twice with Roundup. That summer was a very dry one, and the GM soybeans did much better than the neighbor's in yields. I speculated that the lack of row-tilling in the GM fields helped to conserve soil moisture. Farmers for the past 2-3 generations rarely replant crops using saved seeds any longer; the hybrid strains don't breed true generation-to-generation. I don't see farmers being "held hostage" by new GM crops anymore than they have been held hostage by patented hybrid crops for the past 50 yrs.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. point taken
Concerning monarchs see post #30 for other objections.
Point taken concerning the desirability of reducing tilling. Are you famaliar with the work of the Land Institute in Kansas?
OK, nobody has yet put a gun to the heads of American farmers to force them to use product X. However, it seems to me that due to very hard factors of small farm finances that farmers are "forced" to adopt any gimmick that promises superior yield/profit in the short term. The long term is something that people have a hard time with and concidering the potential magnitude of the changes to the biosphere needs to be considered. Remember, BT is just one product. Hordes of others are on the horizon. Do you trust corporations to exhaustively test when that delays profits? I don't.
Another arguement that I have yet to broach is the loss of diversity in the gene pools of domestic crops. By adopting particular strains wholesale we reduce the adaptability of a species to meet new situations. This is happening in Mexico where numerous local forms of maize are becoming extinct as coporations expand their markets to the south. I believe the same is happening with rice in Asia.
I suppose it depends where you put your faith.
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BrokenSegue Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-03 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Study
Who says human sustainabilit is comparable to other animals. Perhaps we will learn how to synthesize food. Or go to Mars.

Also if the study is right, it isn't the end of the world. Won't our population trend down until it becomes sustainable again? I don't trust this studies. It doesn't take into account future scientific research, food supplies, air purifiers etc. Also what other species were we compared with? Ants? I think not.

In the end though I agree, some way or another we'll kill ourselves. I sometimes wonder if I feel some heat from a nuclear shockwave coming towards me. Sometimes I think I'm paranoid.
Interesting idea all around
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
35. whaaaaaaa?
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 11:16 AM by enki23
"used a statistical device known as "confidence limits" to measure what the sustainable norm should be for species populations..."


er.... a confidence limit is not a measurement, at least not last i checked. it's just another way of reporting variance, not an arcane statistical model. christ, this is science writing? this is kinda like saying "used a statistical device known as "standard deviation" to measure what the sustainable norm should be or species populations..."

and this study... i'm a pretty big environmentalist, and am a fairly steady member of the "sky is falling" group. the sky really does appear to be tilting precariously. but their assumptions that human populations are directly comparable to other mammalian populations in this way seem pretty contrived. and this is all rehashed. yes, we're definitely fucking up the planet, but that doesn't mean fucking up the planet is inevitable. we could live differently, and we may (i hope) develop more means to live better, cleaner, with a smaller footprint. but...

a 1000 times too many? where in hell did that come from? i assume you added that yourself? i didn't find it in the story. that would be saying the maximum carrying capacity of the planet is about 6 million people. that's utterly f**king ridiculous.

and what's this shite at the end about "unconscious urgings of fatally self-interested primitive tribalism"? jesus. either the guy's loopy, or the writer is a moron.

i have a feeling the guy is doing decent science, and the writer is to blame for this. i hope, anyway.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. correction
just got that the title was "1000 times too many humans" which exonerates the poster, though likely not the author, or the study's author... or both
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. not necessarily ridiculous
concidering the way we behave . Remember the defination of carrying capacity:the maximum number of individuals of a given species that the habitat can support without breaking down. It is more an inditement of our current and past behavior than an absolute.
If we were wise and humane the planet might support 1 or 2 billion but the more we trash and loot the place the fewer numbers we'll be able to support in the long run.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. that is playing so fast and loose with the concept of 'carrying capacity'
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 09:09 PM by enki23
that, yes, it's utterly ridiculous no matter how you look at it. six million is less than the population of new york city. a population that small *very* probably couldn't be self-sustaining at anywhere *near* our technological level. yes, i know that might be an unspoken part of his point. it's also a bunch of shit.

that, and the "unconscious urgings" jungian crap places this guy squarely in the "crank" corner, imho. that is, unless he redeems himself. and, by the way, i'm hoping the sophisticated "confidence intervals" technique bit is a fuckup on the writer's part alone, rather than this guy being so amazingly contemptuous of the readers as to wittingly pass that off as legitimate.

from what i can see, this guy's a living, breathing strawman, a huge, throbbing dick in the eye of environmentalism. and i don't say things like that lightly. (about environmentalism. i have no strong feelings either way about throbbing dicks.)
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
39. His "natural predisposition to expand" statement is false.
At least from a systems point of view.
What's evolutionarily proven (iow the evidence on the planet) is that the numbers of a species balance with their food supply. Iow, any biological population expands only so much as it's food supply will allow. IoOw, our population growth isn't due to a predisposition, it's due to shortsighted use of technology ie agriculture cum totalitarian agriculture.


Our culture is the only example of a subset of a species to forego the viable behaviour of limited competition for one of "expand borders to put more land under cultivation to support population growth, kill anything that stands or climbs or crawls in the way".

The fact that our population is now doubling every 30 or so years as opposed to every 19 thousand years (as it was when our population reached 10 million 10 thousand years ago) isn't evidence of humanity's predisposition to expand, it is evidence of our culture's lack of knowledge/cultural amnesia of what works well for humanity.

I'm totally puzzled by the last sentence of the piece because the tribal way worked for a couple to few million years - It's not clear if Rees knows this or not.

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ChemEng Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. Paul Erhlich, where are you??
I thought we were all supposed to be dead in the 1980s. Oh well, one thing I do believe in, and that is man's ingenuity to survive.

If this is what "science" has become, God help us.
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Roy G Biv Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-03 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Paul Ehrlich's theory
Paul Ehrlich viewed human beings as parasites who consume resources. Under this view, the more people there are, and the higher their standard of living, the quicker we run out of resources.

But Paul Ehrlich's theory was in error. The truth is the opposite. Human beings are creative, innovative beings who use their minds to increase the supply and availability of resources.

In fact, I would argue that the very term "natural resource" is actually quite vague, and I would like to offer some real world examples to explain why.

As one example, please consider petroleum. For most of human history, petroleum was worthless. In fact, it had negative value, because it was a nuisance that got in the way of people who were digging water wells.

But in the 19th century, a human being with a brain figured out a way to use the petroleum as fuel, and all of a sudden, the petroleum acquired value.

So what is the real resource in this case? Is it the petroleum, or, is it the human brain that figured out how to use the petroleum?

And today, with thermal depolymerization, we can turn garbage into oil at a cost of $15 per barrel. Imagine that! We can turn garbage into oil! Wow! Again, this is because of the human brain.

Another example is that today, we take worthless sand, and we turn it into valuable computer chips that are worth trillions of dollars. Again, what is the real resource? Is it the sand, or it is the human brain?

Several decades ago, telephone signals were carried on copper wire. But today, we use fiber optic cable instead. Compared to the copper wire, the fiber optic cable carries more information, but it uses fewer atoms of material. Again, what's the real resource here? Is it the physical material in the fiber optic cable, or, is it the human brain?

Of course, not every country is doing these kinds of things. The human mind functions best when people are free. As a general rule, the freer the people, the more the people will use their minds to improve the quality of life.

As an example, please compare South Korea to North Korea. The two countries have similar geography and climate, similar cultures, similar "natural resources," similar population densities, etc. But South Korea is a rich country with a first world standard of living and all of the modern conveniences, while North Korea is a third world country whose people are suffering from famine, water shortages, energy shortages, etc.

The explanation for why South Korea is so rich while North Korea is so poor is because of the differences in the two countries' legal and economic institutions. South Korea is a free country with private property rights, the rule of law, enforcement of contracts, and a free market pricing system to encourage efficient use, allocation, and distribution of resources. North Korea does not have these institutions.

I would now like to point out some of the past predictions that were made regarding the subject of "overpopulation," and explain *why* these predictions failed to come true. When I use the term "overpopulation doomsayers," I am referring to people such as Paul Ehrlich and Lester Brown, and the millions of people who share their beliefs. These poeple aren't "stupid." On the contrary, many of them are highly intelligent, and they tend to have high I.Q.s, and many have college degrees. However, they are misinformed, and many of their beliefs are mistaken. I would like to explain why their beliefs are in error.

The "overpopulation doomsayers" who predicted a worsening of third world famine as the world's population doubled from 3 billion to 6 billion were wrong. Despite what Paul Ehrlich and other "doomsayers" predicted in the 1960s and 1970s, the truth is that over the past few decades, per capita food production has increased in China, India, Latin America, the developing world in general, and the world as a whole.

The "doomsayers" were wrong in their claim that the Chinese famines of the 1960s were caused by "overpopulation." And the "doomsayers" were wrong in their prediction that as China's population got bigger, its problem of famine would get worse. In reality, China's famines of the 1960s were caused by bad economic policies, not by "overpopulation." China's switch from collective farming to private farming in the late 1970s caused a tremendous increase in per capita food production. Today, China's population is much bigger than it was in the 1960s. And today, the people of China are much better fed than they were in the 1960s.

Despite what Paul Ehrlich and other "doomsayers" want us to believe, Africa actually has a low population density, and its land is very rich in many valuable "natural resources," and it has many large tracts of fertile land that are sitting idle, unplanted, with no crops being grown. The real cause of African famine is bad economic policies, not "overpopulation." Collective ownership of farmland discourages farmers from planting crops, because the person who plants the crop is not necessarily the person who gets to harvest it. Government price caps on food discourage farmers from growing food.

Poor countries remain poor because of corrupt government, bad economic policies, and a lack of strong protections of private property rights. Whenever a poor country adopts strong protections of private property rights, free market pricing, and free trade, combined with a strong rule of law, and enforcement of contracts, and holds on to these policies, the country experiences tremendous increases in its standard of living. Recent examples of poor countries transforming themselves into rich countries include Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea, and all of this happened while these countries experienced substantial increases in their populations. Paul Ehrlich said this was impossible, but real world experience proves that Ehrlich was wrong.

In the rich capitalist countries with a first world standard of living, the air and water have been getting cleaner. Once per capita GNP in a country reaches about $4,000, people can start to afford worrying about protecting the environment. And the richer the country gets, the better off its environment becomes. Just as richer people have better access to food, housing, clothing, education, and health care, they also have better access to a cleaner and healthier environment.

On privately owned timberland, the greedy landowner is concerned about the future resale value of his land, so he usually plants more trees than he cuts down.

On privately owned fish farms, fish populations keep getting bigger and bigger. Overfishing is not a problem at all on privately owned fish farms.

Government price caps on the price of water keep the price artificially low. This artificially low price encourages people to waste water. Also, this artificially low price prevents many water suppliers from being able to afford desalination plants. 70% of the world's surface is covered in water, to an average depth of 2 miles. Water "shortages" are caused by bad economic policies, not by an actual lack of water.

The "doomsayers" who predicted that before the year 2000, the world would run out of oil, copper, gold, iron, tin, and aluminum, were wrong. In a free market, with private ownership of resources, and free market pricing, it's impossible to run out of a resource. Scarcity of a resource leads to higher prices. Higher prices encourage users to conserve. Higher prices encourage suppliers to look for more of the resource, and/or to find a cheaper substitute. The "doomsayers" don't understand the function of prices in a free market economy, and that's why their predictions of "running out" of resources have been consistently wrong.

The "doomsayers" of the 18th century who worried about running out of candle wax and whale oil never realized that things like petroleum and electricity and light bulbs would come along. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones, and the petroleum age won't end because we run out of petroleum.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. your faith is touching
Faith in capitalism, faith in human ingenuity, faith in rationality. If these aspects of human ability and culture did not often work at cross purposes your faith would be well founded. Capitalism is proving a failure because of its tendancy to concentrate wealth and convert that wealth to political power in order to maintain and increase that wealth. The failure of our society to deal rationally with our dependency on pertoleum is a prime example. Only a goofball would claim that oil is not a finite resource. Yet those who control that resource continue to deplete that resource as fast as they can for private short term gain with no thought for future generations. And in the process spoil the global commons of the air, oceans and even the climate. Conservation of said finite resource is not even considered as it would decrease the flow of wealth to the powerful despite the many positives it would achieve.
Human ingenuity has indeed allowed us to dodge the bullet of overpopulation thus far, at a price. The green revolution was not an unmixed blessing. It is based upon a massive increase in the use of oil and various chemicals which increase the dependence of farmers upon the big corporations and deteriorates the environment. Some say that Earth could support 50 billion people if we till every available acre , but where would the pertoleum come from? Well, maybe we'll come up with something, but maybe not. I'm not one to buy a pig in a poke. And what of the natural ecosystems, the flora and fauna that we have shared this planet with since our beginings? They may be inconcequencial to human survivial(though I doubt it) but their existance is as selfjustifying as is ours. More than ingenuity is needed.
Rationality is overrated as it is applied piecemeal. We are hierarchial primates with our place in the hierarcy our primary concern. Would wealth beyond need be accumulated otherwise? Rationality is a tool of our mind, too often used only to persue monkey buisness. Wish it were otherwise.
In light of human behavior and history I find your faith to be akin to denial.
Happy Holidays
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Roy G Biv Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Oil
"Only a goofball would claim that oil is not a finite resource."

Of course the supply of oil is finite. That's why the price of oil is higher than zero.

"Yet those who control that resource continue to deplete that resource as fast as they can for private short term gain with no thought for future generations."

You are mistaken. Their greed is precisely why they *don't* release the oil all at once. They are concerned about current profits, and future profits, and long, long term future profits. That's why the commodities market exists.

The pricing mechanism makes it impossible for us to run out of oil. By definition, the price of oil is the point where supply and demand are equal to each other. If the oil really was running out, its price would skyrocket. And higher prices = automatic conservation.

In addition, we can now turn garbage into oil for $15 a barrel. So even if you don't understand economics, the function of prices, or the law of supply and demand, the fact that we can manufacture oil for $15 a barrel is something that you can understand.

Happy holidays to you too!
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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. This study forgot one thing...
...AGRICULTURE!!! That study only makes sense if we are all hunter-gatherers. To sustain everybody at a 1st would level the population would , I think, have to be less then about 1 billion people. I would like it at about 500 million so there is less harm to the enviroment, my 1 billion guestamite would be at today's level of resorce extraction.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. sustainability
Edited on Mon Dec-22-03 08:15 AM by blindpig
is not possible over the long term with current agricultural practices. Leaving aside the chemical warfare we inflict on the biosphere, eventually all of our topsoil will end up in the sea due to erosion caused by plowing. Consider Iraq. Started out as paradise, became dependent upon irrigation as the habitat declined then desert after the Mongols destroyed the ancient water supply system. It seems that small holders like the Amish can maintain and even improve the soil but this seems unlikely on the coporate level. The Land Institute at least was working on developing a multispecies perennial prarie that would reqire minimal plowing. I havn't kept up with their work.
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a2wise Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Current agricultural practices
have fed us up to this point. You have ignored all of the points made previously. Modern agriculture is feeding the world today. People claiming the total distruction of our ability to produce food have had a record of dismal failure. You keep insisting that the world can not continue to feed itself, but all you cite are people that have never been right about anything.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. how long, lord, how long?
never have there been so many mouths to feed, never has so much land been under cultivation. Unless we greatly change our methods its only a matter of time. How long? I don't know, maybe 20 yrs, maybe 120. What I do know is the longer we wait the harder it will be.
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