"Today, We're Planning To Produce Electricity From Hydrogen. . .

[Strelnikov_]

This will lower carbon emissions by 90%"

From a BP commercial on just now. Did I miss some great new development?

I have heard about H from algae, but that is still in the research 'we may never work out scalability' phase. When they say 'Today', I assume in the near future with a proven technology.

Could be they are talking about making electricity to power a car, using a fuel cell, and leaving out the part about the 5 parts of energy needed to yield the 1 part H energy. They wouldn't do that now, would they?

[NNadir]

1. You missed something. Hydrogen is made from electricity and electricity

will be made from hydrogen.

It's a perpetual motion machine that works.

[wli]

2. producing H is nowhere near as bad as storing it

The production isn't a real problem, but getting the density to a useful level is a bigger issue AFAICT. Hydrocarbon fuels do much better wrt. density than H itself.

[Old and In the Way]

3. Planning and producng are 2 very different things.

Planning is cheap. Producing could be very expensive. But it sure sounds good in an ad.

[jbnow]

4. In chemistry class in college

back in the 70's we confidently talked about heavy hydrogen as a clean and easy source of energy. 30 years later I don't recall a bit of the details but then I understood it. I always wondered what happened to that...

[NNadir]

6. Where did you take chemistry?

[jbnow]

8. Sure wasn't Harvard

I was a chem major at Central Michigan University, but when you don't use it for 30 years it doesn't stay fresh. I just recall the concept seemed so simple then, but that doesn't mean it was.

[NNadir]

10. Well, hopefully you just forgot what they said.

Most chemists are aware that hydrogen has never been a "source" of energy, unless of course, one is speaking of nuclear fusion.

In fact, the discussion of hydrogen as a "source" of energy is one of the more annoying urban myths in a time of an enormous number of urban myths, many of which are about energy.

[Salviati]

7. Well, if you're talking about the different types of hydogen isotopes...

you're likely talking fusion, which has been 15 years in the future for the last 30 years or so...

As far as current fusion work goes, ITER is the next big thing in the pipeline, it's a truely impressive project, both the technical details, and the international cooperation in building it...

http://www.iter.org/index.htm

[NNadir]

11. Just 15 years?

Solar PV has been 25 years in the future for 40 years or more.

Fusion has some time to go before it's world class.

[htuttle]

5. Hydrogen is a scam

An electrical vehicle infrastructure would serve us far better.

The only point to a hydrogen fuel vehicle infrastructure is to provide the petroleum companies with a ready-made monopoly with a built in transition strategy (since they plan on making hydrogen fuel out of the last of the oil).

The petro companies don't want us to go to 100% electric vehicles because electricity is too easy to generate (compared to hydrogen), and there are already so many players in the electrical generation industry. They don't like competition.

So they push the government-subsidized hydrogen vehicle idea because, well, if you were them (and lacking a conscience), you would probably push it too. It's good for their bidness.

I have yet to see one convincing argument that hydrogen fueled vehicles have any advantages over 100% electric vehicles (with batteries, etc...). The energy density of hydrogen is so low, what's the point? You'd have to have an enormous (and leaky!) tank to get much more range than current electric vehicles (and electric battery tech is progressing quickly lately).

[Strelnikov_]

9. I Have Reached The Same Conclusion Regarding H vs. Battery

Build them light, aerodynamic, and an electric car is more than adequate for most peoples day to day use, all with todays technology.

For those needing more range, develop PHEV's. Liquid fuel consumption would be low enough that biomass sources (ethanol/bio diesel) would be adequate to supply demand.

What is the saying? Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars will always be just 20 years out?

[Porcupine]

12. With a towable generator any EV is complete.

Day to day you drive on battery only. Say you want to go to Death Valley; you rent a generator at U-Haul. The generator unit is on a small trailer (already available) that also gives you extra cargo space.

Now you can power through the desert with AC blasting. At the end of the trip it's back to being efficient.

No breakthrough required. This would work fine with lead-acid batteries.

[Strelnikov_]

13. Pretty Good Idea Once You Start To Think About It

Will take an efficiency hit on the pass through ICE->Generator, plus the generator weight.

This would probably be more than made up by the efficiency gain in not having to lug around an ICE in day to day use. And the ICE/generator can be designed to run at optimum efficiency (constant output) with the electric car managing the balance between motive/storage.

And as you point out, all with today's technology.

[hatrack]

14. Occasionally, themodynamics and economics intersect

This is one of those rare occasions, and it's best expressed by the simple phrase "There is no free lunch."

[dcfirefighter]

15. TANSTAAFL

[hatrack]

16. Thanks - good acronym!

Almost as good as FUBAR and TARFU. :toast: