would this be possible? . . . even hypothetically? . . .

[OneBlueSky]

has anyone tried it? . . .

I live in a small town on the banks of the Hudson River (tidal), and I've been wondering lately if it might make any sense for a municipality to consider constructing its own power grid using whatever combination of clean power alternatives make the most sense . . . maybe a little wind, a little solar, possibly even some tidal and/or hydro . . . maybe even some geothermal (though I must admit this is something I know little about) . . .

would it be theoretically possible for a town to do something like this in order to provide its residents with electricity at the lowest possible cost while selling excess power to the grid at pervailing market rates? . . . is it technologically possible? . . . would it make economic sense? . . .

just wondering if localizing power generation using clean technologies might be a direction we could pursue to help get us off the oil teat . . .

if it's a ridiculous idea, please don't flame me too hard -- when it comes to alternative energy, I'm still pretty "green" . . . :)

[WCGreen]

1. For residential areas....

But when industry is involved....

You need to have steady and reliable current...

[Trillo]

3. If researchers get solar hydrogen cells working,

industry could store the hydrogen produced by the cells in tanks to power turbine generators during the day and night.

Here's something about solar hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/boc_foundations.html

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. start-up fees...

That's the big hurdle. The technology is there, and if you asked the customers they would be on board. Here in OR, we get alot of our power from Bonneville dam (hydro-power) we like it now, but if we had had to foot the bill to build it... (it was built during the New Deal 1933-37) would it have been built at all?

[Syrinx]

4. I've never thought of this really

If I'm not mistaken, most of the electricity in my area is produced from locks and dams on the river. They use public facilities (the locks and dams), but it is administered by a private company (Alabama Power, ie. The Southern Company).

I need to look into this.

[Wilms]

5. There's a project in NYC on the East River

I bolded the snip wondering if your area has been looked at.

New York's Roosevelt Island Tidal Energy (RITE) Project

The first set of tidal turbines is scheduled to be deployed in March 2006. The eventual field of underwater turbines, in NY's East River, will have a capacity of up to 10 MW. Just four sites in the East River have a potential capacity of nearly 40 MW. Once developed, it would make New York the world's largest renewable energy city. The Company's business partner is the New York State Energy Research & Development Authority (NYSERDA), which has invested more than $2 million to date in the RITE Project. New York University has identified nearly 600 MW of potential kinetic hydropower in the State of New York. NYSERDA has identified a potential of more than 1,000 MW of capacity. The Company has targeted half of this potential, or about 500 MW, for development in New York State.

New York City's Second East River Site Surveyed

The Company is also conducting a survey of a second tidal energy site in the Buttermilk Channel of the East River, alongside Governor's Island - an area known as New York City's Golden Triangle.

http://www.verdantpower.com/initiatives/eastriver.html

[skids]

6. Yes if you have a local Gas and Electric.

Usually things like this happen in towns where the electric company is a quasi-public entity serving only one to several towns. Visit hullwind.org for an example.

[EuroObserver]

7. Seems entirely reasonable to me:

This approach would provide greater diversity for the whole and indeed a degree of autonomy at the local level. Maintaining grid interconnectedness would allow ironing-out of local fluctuations. Of course the grid itself needs to be modernized, made more efficient (and intelligent).

Don't forget recycling of bio-waste, bio-gas production.

As for financing: Europeans would of course say that you should be taxing more highly gas and petrochemicals. But I realise that's problematic in the States.

Perhaps it will take the probably forthcoming *crash and depression* to call forth a modern FDR who would be able to focus a new *New Deal* on such initiatives...

(off the top of my head, it's still a little early in the morning for me here).

[sandnsea]

8. A little scared to say this

But brokering that "excess power" was exactly what Enron was supposed to do, more or less. Start-up wind, solar, etc., could go onto the grid without having to power an entire city the way we do now, and their power would be moved/sold to where it was needed. Local power companies who said they couldn't afford to upgrade to cleaner fuels would eventually be driven out of business.

So yeah, it makes sense. As long as we have good regulations when we move the power around the country.

[phoebe]

9. wish could recall exactly where - but an entire town in Scandinavia

has gone off grid by making use of numerous thermal vents surrounding the area..will try to find
article..

[Dogmudgeon]

10. Yes, it was once pretty common

The whole idea of a "grid" is to connect all these little systems together.

The "grid" today is a top-down affair, but if we're ever to build a stronger, decentralized power system with extensive use of renewables, we will need to re-establish that older model with new technology. Fortunately, the infrastructure can handle it, so it will mainly be a problem of politics.

--p!

[jpak]

11. Yes and its been done before (SMUD)

SMUD has been in business for 60 years and is a recognized leader in renewable energy AND conservation.

http://www.smud.org

and owns its own wind farm...

http://www.smud.org/green/wind.html

and PV arrays...

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/SEPA_Member_News/index_detail.cfm?LinkAdvID=22126

http://www.forth.com/resources/appNotes/app-smud.html

Besides tidal wind and solar, add landfill and sewage treatment plant methane to the list.

Landfill methane could reduce the cost of operating the landfill.

Converting an older aerobic sewage treatment plant into an anaerobic plant would save the municipality a lot ot money in energy and sludge disposal costs (anaerobic treatment dramatically reduces the amount of sludge produced).

The biogas produced could be used to produce electricity and heat for local district heating (and cooling) - for example the local school system.

They could also be operated to compliment PV, wind and tidal power output (operating at night, windless days or slack tides).

SMUD offers rebates for a variety of appliances and roof top solar systems.

http://www.smud.org/residential/saving/rebate.html

http://www.smud.org/green/solar/index.html

Taking demand off the table means more electricity the town could sell to the grid.

Replacing an electric hot water heater with a solar system would save 3500-5000 kWh a year.

Replacing an older fridge with and Energy Star fridge could save as much as 1000 kWh per year.

etc....

:)

[jpak]

12. The city of Woking (UK) did it....

http://www.newsobserver.com/559/story/412037.html

<snip>

In one striking respect, however, Woking is unique. The city is energy self-sufficient, generating 135 percent more than it consumes.

This did not come about by accident. The local council implemented a comprehensive new energy policy in 1991 affecting businesses, utilities and residents. In the 10-year period that followed, energy consumption was reduced by 40 percent, CO2 emissions by 67 percent and water consumption by 44 percent.

<snip>

In the case of Woking, the city has implemented the use of photovoltaic roofs, solar street lamps, geothermal pumps, hydrogen cells to replace conventional electricity substations, and bio-digesters for household waste.

<more>

[Dead_Parrot]

14. Ahem...

Now you know I'd never argue with you for the sake of it :evilgrin:, but it's worth noting that most of Woking's inhabitants commute to Central London to work. The work that Woking council have done (which I agree is excellent) is offset by the entire town being the sort of gas-munching suburbia that Kunstler's so fond of...

"self-sufficient for electricity and heat" would have been a better phrase than "energy self-sufficient", methinks. But not as snappy. :(

Edit for OBS - it's still a good idea, and may be possible if you've got the resources. Even getting partway would help (like solar streetlights).

[OneBlueSky]

13. thanks for all the responses and the good info . . . n/t

.