Plan for coal-fired energy plants fires up opposition (CO)

[jpak]

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2006/11/27/11_27_1A_Montrose_energy_use.html

MONTROSE — Resistance is growing over a multistate energy supplier’s plans to build three new coal-fired power plants, and the supplier’s Montrose-based co-op is among the cautioning voices.

Tri-State Generation and Transmission’s plans for the new plants should at least be scaled back, Dan McClendon, general manager of the Delta-Montrose Electric Association, said during a news conference last week.

Electric rates for homes will go up about 12 percent for association customers in Delta and Montrose counties in 2007 and could go up 30 percent over the next four years, McClendon said, all because of the power plants. A public hearing on the rate hike will be Tuesday at the association’s office in Montrose.

Energy conservation is the best way to bring energy costs down, coupled with using renewable resources and allowing more local energy production, whether it’s hydro or biomass, McClendon said.

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[XemaSab]

1. Hydro and biomass will face opposition too

Especially if they are locally installed.

Power is like sausage: people don't want to see it made. :P

[Dead_Parrot]

4. lol.

I'll have to remember that one... :D

[earthside]

2. Conservation 'Crapola'

I'm about as 'green' and environmental as you can get, but ...

Colorado is expecting to add another million people to our population in the next twenty years -- you cannot supply electrical power to that many new residents through conservation of current existing generating capacity.

This is something a lot of 'alternative energy' enthusiasts just don't want to deal with -- coal-powered generation is the cheapest, fastest, most profitable way to provided electricity. There is no way that biomass, hydro and wind are going to even come close to making enough power for another million people in Colorado.

Unfortunately, the consumer and corporate culture has so taken over the mainstream environmental movement that talking about the real problem for the planet's ecosystems -- over-population -- is politically incorrect and is, therefore, just not discussed.

[jpak]

3. Conservation Crapola (not)

For under $5K you could reduce individual household electricity consumption by several thousand kWh per year - all you would need are...

A Bluelink 480 or 960 PV system...

http://www.bluelinksolar.net/fmain.html

an Energy Star fridge...

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=refrig.pr_refrigerators

...and a solar hot water heater...

http://www.solardepot.com/r_solar_hot_water.htm

Colorado has a solar rebate program...

http://www.coloradosolar.com/

After rebates and federal tax credits a Bluelink 480 system would cost $1410 - it would produce enough electricity to run an E-Star fridge over the annual solar cycle.

A decent 18 cu. ft Energy Star fridge costs <$650

After state rebates and and federal tax credits a solar hot water system would cost <$2500 - it would provide 65-100% of household hot water demand over the annual solar cycle.

Add in wind, biomass and central station solar electric and you could accommodate a million new CO residents over 20 years...

[earthside]

5. Oh, Really.

We're going to manufacture PV systems, Energy Star refrigerators, solar water heaters, and all the other new home construction materials with the energy derived from Pixie Power! Elves will then transport all of these items to the construction sites for free!

The million people will all work at home on Zen computers that are powered by the vibrations of the universe. And all of the food, clothing and other supplies necessary for living will show up while everyone is asleep ... courtesy of leprechauns.

Schools, stores, fire stations, churches, libraries will all be heated, cooled, and lighted by Gnome P & L.

My main point is simply that until environmentalists are willing to step up and forthrightly deal with the over-population issue, the energy part of the equation will never work out with just conservation and windmills.

Too many people require too much energy and too many products that cause too much pollution and create too much global warming.

And there are not any simple, comfortable answers to this root problem.

[Dogmudgeon]

6. "Pixie power" can help us survive

Although I agree that we won't have much of a chance to turn the wheels of our economy on wind and solar energy, at least for a long time, they can provide residential and "survival" energy.

That way, if and when the economy collapses, people won't have to die by the millions. Our kids can suffer the way our grandparents suffered, instead. Won't that be wonderful!

We need to do some serious long-term planning, including population planning, but we've already felt the first few tremors of the econ/ecol quake. Right now, survival comes first. And since it's shaping up to be a cold and stormy winter in the Northern Hemisphere, we might get our first real taste of that in the next few weeks.

You're correct when you say that "there are not any simple, comfortable answers to this root problem." But for survival, we already have most of what we need. I guess I see it as a decision of how much pain we're willing to suffer before we get our head out of our collective ass.

I'm a pessimist, though. I think "we" will be using these crises as a form of planetary population reduction over the next 50 years.

Evil pixies, if you will.

--p!

[jpak]

7. Do you believe in Pixies??? They believe in you...

:evilgrin:

The average home in Colorado uses 7500 kWh per year...

http://www.xcelenergy.com/XLWEB/CDA/0,3080,1-1-3_746_25709_25762-23195-2_171_282-0,00.html

The cost of electricity in CO is $0.095 per kWh.

If those new coal plants are built, the average household's electricity bill will increase by 30% ($0.0285 per kWh) - or $214 per year.

Over 10 years that's $2140.

Again, after federal tax credits and state rebates a Blue Link 480 system would cost $1410 and produce a *minimum* of 526 kWh per year - and a lot more in CO.

Kenmore 18 cu. ft. fridge/freezers consume ~375 kWh per year and costs ~$650...

http://shopping.yahoo.com/s:Refrigerators:2047-Energy%20Saving%20Feature=Energy%20Star:4168-Brand=Kenmore

Eight 11W compact fluorescent bulbs operated for 4 hours each day would consume 128 kWh per year.

Instead of handing over $2140 to the Electric Company over 10 years, you could spend $2060 on a Blue Link 480 + Kenmore fridge - and save $80...and run your fridge and your lights without building a coal-fired power plant.

It would be the same thing as unplugging your lights and and fridge from the grid.

In Pixie Parlance - :nuke:POOF:nuke:

But wait, there's more...

The average family sized hot water heater consumes ~5000 kWh per year - and would cost $926 per year to operate if they built those coal-fired power plants.

A family sized solar hot water heater after state and federal credits/rebates would cost ~$2500 in CO.

The payback time would be ~3 years compared to coal-fired juice.

and it would save 5000 kWh per year.

So a home that consumed 7500 kWh per year would now consume only 2000 kWh per year - a 73% reduction in electricity consumption.

Can I get another Pixie Power Poof????

:nuke:POOF:nuke:

How many new homes would be built in CO if the population increased by 1 million over 20 years??

That's 16K new homes/apt per year (assuming 3 per home/apt).

If they all used Pixie Power, those new homes would consume an additional 32 million kWh per year.

A 100 MW wind farm would produce 263 million kWh per year (assuming a 30% capacity factor).

Using Pixie Power Homes and three 100 MW Pixie Power wind farms, you could accommodate those 1 million new CO residents.

Pixie Power Rules...

:evilgrin:

[hunter]

8. I'm certain those magic "federal tax credits and state rebates" could be put to more productive use.

Just how much seed money does the solar industry need before it becomes a simple pork barrel subsidy for the affluent?

Too much of the solar industry is about making money off of the guilty consciences of affluent consumers. The average guy, working in the fields, suffering physical ailments and raising kids brain-damaged by pesticides, bad food, bad schools, and bad neighborhoods, really doesn't see any benefit from some rich guy putting solar panels on his roof.

Most solar installations are essentially decorations on a yacht. "Ooooh! Look at me! I'm solar!" That's a distant universe to a cold family in a dim house who are having trouble paying a twenty dollar electric bill and a hundred dollar heating bill.

[jpak]

9. Yeah - we could spent $12 billion (in taxes) to build 6 new nuclear plants by 2030

Oh wait - Dick Cheney already is doing this!!!!1111

So his cronies can charge all those po' peoples megabux for their juice and tax them to build them at the same time.

As Mr. Burns would say....

"excellent"

[hunter]

13. No doubt. The devil supports nuclear power, so it must be evil.

When the United States as an economic basket case, I'm sure other nations will be happy to build us power plants, even nuclear power plants, to protect their own interests and expand their markets.

It'll be a pity we couldn't stop bickering and do it ourselves.

[Dead_Parrot]

14. Hmmm

A Bluelink 480 peaks at 480W, and has a list price of $4,650: so the state picks up $2,940, or a $6.13/W subsidy. This is Good.
6 nuclear reactors would produce about 6GW: the state picks up $12,000,000,000, or a $2/W subsidy. This is bad.

I don't get it. Maybe if we look at the power produced?

Let's assume both the bluelink and the reactors have a 25 year lifespan. The Bluelink will produce around 26,280kWh, so it's 11c/KWh.
The reactors will produce around 1,135,296,000,000kWh, so it's 1c/kWh

Nope, I still don't get it. :shrug: Perhaps you could explain this?

For an encore, perhaps you could explain where the grid-tied systems are going to get their power from for the other 18 hours.

[jpak]

15. Where do grid-tied systems get there juice at night????

grid-tied wind turbines

grid-tied biomass power plants

grid-tied geothermal plants

grid-tied wave/tidal plants (not in CO of course)

grid-tied hydro plants

grid-tied biogas plants

************************

Dick Cheney Energy Task Force - BAD

Nasty Dick Cheney Cronies get taxpayer money, charge taxpayer expensive electricity, no reduce GHG emissions - BAD

Dems investigate nasty Dick Cheney dirty deals soon - make Dick Cheney cry like baby on CSPAN - GOOD

Homeowner get break on PV/hot water system using money he/she earned and taxes he/she paid - GOOD

Reduce GHG emissions - GOOD

:evilgrin:

also: the federal tax credit on PV is 30% of the total cost - or $2.90 per watt for the Blue Link 480...

[Dead_Parrot]

16. Exactly.

And I notice that all of these methods are significantly cheaper than solar panels. So why not stop dicking around with grid tied PV and just build extra capacity there? You'll need to build them anyway, as you so eloquently point out...

If the state spent $3k per household turning biological waste into an on demand supply, you'd get twice the Joules and it works when you want it to.

[jpak]

17. The objective is to reduce demand at the source - so you don't build coal-fired plants

It costs more to build in that external capacity and distribution (and storage) infrastructure than it would to reduce source (home) demand by 73%.

Why build wind farms and power lines and fly wheel storage plants to run electric hot water heaters when roof mounted hot water systems would do the job (they already have their storage built in)???

Why should a homeowner pay someone else to produce that electricity when they could heat their water themselves????

Why build a large number biomass power plants to run energy inefficient refrigerators, when small PV systems, Energy Star units and a small(er) number of biomass plants can do the job????

Doesn't make sense.

[Dead_Parrot]

18. Nice strawman.

I have no problem with solar water heating, ES appliances of CF bulbs. Perhaps you'd like to try again, but addressing the cost of PV?

[jpak]

19. The cost of PV is going down

The price of nuclear plants and uranium and spent fuel disposal is going up.

How's that for a strawman???

:evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

20. Well, when they meet let me know.

Meanwhile, you're recomending a 480W system that costs $4,650. You seem to be saying that everyone should be generating their own power, but everyone else should be paying for it: In other words, PV rebates are a giant Ponzi scheme - the last people to get them get hosed.

[kestrel91316]

21. I have a question for you -

When you said this: "....until environmentalists are willing to step up and forthrightly deal with the over-population issue...." what exactly did you have in mind? Shooting the excess population? Burning them for their fuel value??

I wonder who has fewer children - environmentalists or NONenvironmentalists???

I don't think environmentalists have the duty to step up to the plate on overpopulation. I think it's the religious nutballs who insist on having "a full quiver" who are the problem. You know - the same ones who want other women to be FORCED to bear children they don't want and can't provide for.

Don't go blaming environmentalists for population problems, dear.

[Dead_Parrot]

10. Maybe they should build some IGCC plants

I'm sure they'll be welcomed with open arms once people realise how clean coal can be...

[jpak]

11. They don't want coal plants - IGCC or otherwise

That's the point of their argument...

[Dead_Parrot]

12. ;-) nt