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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:32 PM
Original message
Can we not call people shills in this forum
just because they disagree with us?

That is all. :hi:

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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. anti insult shill. nt.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. You're just shilling for the civility conglomerates!
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's true!
They send me a check every month! :cry:
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kanrok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Shill.
That is all.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is about calling pro-nuclearists "shills", right?
--p!
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. There are several "one-note" posters here
One in particular has over 10K posts. Run a search and you will find that 95% his posts are promoting a single issue: nukes.

There is johnny ethanol.

There are the fuel cell guys.

The orthodox "hydrogen will fix all" posters.

The doomers, peak-oil and climate change, are there to lower the hopes of anything working.

There are very few of us who are interested in a combined mix of distributed power sources with a massive conservation program. A managed powerdown if you will. We know we're not shutting the nuclear plants. We are aware that hydrogen and biofuels have serious flaws.

Our biggest obstacle is that the PTB lack the commitment to make changes of a magnitude that would significantly alter "the end of the world as we know it" scenarios.

Assuming we started tomorrow on a money is no object conversion of our culture:

1)start building thorium fueled, molten salt reactors to replace 1/2 the coal plants

2)provide 1% loans to finance solar power and wind power installations.

3) provide 1% loans for home energy retrofits of HVAC units and business HVAC units

4) Institute a crippling tax on SUV and large pick-up ownership exempting only licensed contractors.

5) Contracted our airline industry by 95% and started a crash development program of lighter than air passenger and freight aircraft.

6) Started a crash building program of light rail and intercity passenger rail.

Assuming we did all of this Climate Change would continue and atmospheric CO2 will continue to rise. We will lose several more cities to climate change effects. Peak Oil will still bleed our economies dry. And CONGRESS WILL SIT ON IT'S HANDS.

Count me in with the doomers.

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ahem. We prefer to call ourselves "realists"
It's just a little doomer conceit...

Like you, I support pursuing every energy option except coal. I think some hold more promise than others and are touted mainly because their supporters and their target audience are innumerate, but hey, that's just my opinion.

My biggest disappointment, like yours, is that legislators at all levels are unable or unwilling to enact policy changes that will get us moving even marginally in the right directions. The reason this is so disheartening is that I see it as a global problem, not just an American one. The hands-off approach to the tar sands taken by Canada's current government is one searing example. Of course, no politician will ever say "I'm going to take a chicken out of your pot" if he wants to be re-elected, but the utter failure of global leadership on energy and Global Warming issues is heartbreaking.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I am a shill for doom and hopelessness.
I hope we all die, but not before we first all eat worms.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I should also mention...
that although I frequently represent the forces of Doom and Despair, and also advocate the utility of nuclear power as a force for (maybe) saving humanity, I also happen to own some shares of FuelCell, Beacon Power and Evergreen Solar. And I'm not planning on selling them anytime soon either.

So... people are multifaceted, yes?
:toast:
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. That's just about where I am
I've made a number of the same points. I've also worn a couple different hats, as you probably have. It is very difficult to take in the entire scope of because it's the largest "issue" we've ever had to deal with -- the entire infrastructure of our society.

This isn't simply a complex issue; it's maddeningly complex.

I've been a "doomer" for a long time. I was initially set wise to these issues by the books Paul Ehrlich wrote, before he was officially "debunked". (A little too prematurely, I might add.) I also spent a few years drinking deeply of the Libertarian kool-aid and experienced my own personal thought reform, but merely reading the world news was enough to disabuse me of those ideas. Reality, I found, is catching up to us, and it's catching up quickly.

I am convinced that we are not going to take the necessary steps to ensure our survival and happiness until a lot of people have died. But at that point, we won't be much concerned with the new crop of problems we've cultivated, we'll just start building furiously and bugger-all to the consequences. I think the ethanol mania is one of these bugger-all furious episodes. While ethanol could be a very useful transition fuel, I fear that it will simply be used to sustain the automotive lifestyle ("easy motoring" in Kunstler's poetic words), forcing a "fuel-or-food" economic dynamic (which used to be called "guns-or-butter"), depleting agricultural land to force high growth rates of the stock crops used to manufacture ethanol. My time as a libertarian proved to me that millions of people regard the market as a quasi-religious institition, and if it leads to food shortages, then the Invisible Hand must want it that way.

About the issue of being a "shill", I'm certain the particular thread was posted as a reaction to one of the nukefights; I saw one of the sub-threads. Everybody wants to be on the run from the Thought Police, whether it's for using the word "bitch", "douchebag", "water buffalo", or "shill". There's a cache in being politically corrected. But this thread was started, I don't doubt, because some of us don't want to be labeled "shills" simply because we don't go along with the tribal custom of loathing nuclear energy.

For example, my own proposals for the energy industry would make me an automatic persona non grata. I think all energy generation should be administered by a Georgist plan which makes every citizen (in the appropriate geographical or political area) a voting stockholder. Think Dick Cheney's going to be inviting me to any cocktail parties for proposing that?

I enjoy "debates" over nuclear and other kinds of energy, and even though they've gotten pretty hot lately, I try to keep them from flaming out. Things have been going pretty well. I don't seek to "convert" anyone, but the public conversation vis-à-vis nuclear energy has been ugly and stupid for too long. We don't really have a lot of wiggle room any more, and life-and-death arguments might become life-and-death in ways we never imagined.

When things start to get bad, nobody will sit on their hands. But when things start to get bad, it may be too late for effective action. Everybody wants their little solar cottage in the woods, but the woods will by then be overrun with frightened, hungry people. Which is why I don't fear the occasional nuclear power plant spill of five or ten curies' worth of contaminated water. But when the pain kicks in, we'll be tolerating thousand-curie spills more frequently, as well as massive cadmium dumping from PV cell manufacture, and badly-designed wind farms that produce the noise pollution of a million banshee cries. If writing in this forum makes just a few people, of any ideological slant, who have even a little real-world power a little more aware of what we face, it will be worth the effort we 20 or 30 stalwarts put into it.

--p!
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It was posted in response to the nuke fight, yes
Especially for calling a new member a "shill" for supporting nukes when many older members also support nukes.

Most people are not beholden to big power companies beyond having a few shares of oil or whatever in their 401k's. Calling people shills is a good ad hominem way to ignore whatever the person is saying and any points they are trying to make.

ps I work for a company that does the siting studies and environmental work for power projects, including PV, geothermal, biomass, wind, natural gas, and -gasp!- coal. Good times.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Really? You've been through all ten thousand of my posts and counted them?
I am impressed with your diligence but not with your accuracy.

Of course, you apparently can't count, but we already knew that.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. No, I took a statistical sampling.
:evilgrin:

Believe it or not other people on this forum made it past grade school. Most of us even manage to insult each other without resorting to grade school tactics. You could consider it.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I recognize that some people on this forum made it through grade school but
Edited on Fri Jan-26-07 09:42 PM by NNadir
I have a distinct impression of who those people are.

To be perfectly frank, there are some people here who upon asserting that they have passed through grade school would do better not to mention the school in question, since they will besmirch its quality.

It happens that asserting a number that is wrong in a question of, say sampling, that irrespective of one's formal level of education, suggests something about whether, in fact, the education was worth anything. Frankly there are people with advanced graduate degrees who are extremely poor thinkers. I've known a number of these people in my lifetime and I still encounter them frequently.

I am perfectly satisfied with the manner in which I insult people, which I find appropriate to the level of thinking I am addressing.

It happens that a large percentage of my posts in this forum are about nuclear energy, not 95% as you assert without any real evidence, but certainly more than 50%. However this should really not be unexpected, since this is the energy forum. My position, strongly held, is that the best form of energy is clearly nuclear energy. Now, if one were discussing energy in a totally randomized fashion, one would have a certain statistical probability of discussing nuclear energy because, as it happens, there are only a few forms of primary energy available on earth. These forms all derive other from nuclear processes (nuclear energy and geothermal energy) or from the solar flux (solar, wind, hydroelectric and tidal) and from the stored solar flux, fossil fuels. Thus - again randomized - the statistical probability of discussing energy derived from nuclear processes in an energy forum would be 33.3% percent.

But there is nothing randomized about me.

I have argued that the energy derived from the immediate solar flux is inadequate to address the present crisis and the energy stored by the historical solar flux is unacceptable. Thus I discuss the nuclear fission form of energy, which as it happens, is the subject of vast ignorance and stupidity, some from people who indicate they have advanced graduate degrees.

It actually makes no difference whatsoever whether or not I am a shill. Most of my positions advanced here are identical with the positions of the nuclear lobby. I have no problem with saying this because I regard practically every statement made on the nuclear lobby's website www.world-nuclear.org as being irrefutably true. Thus I would have no ethical problem with working for the nuclear lobby since I would have to change almost none of my positions whatsoever. However, it is probably the case that to be an employee of the nuclear lobby, one would need to be cozy with power company executives, some of whom would advance notions that I frankly find absurd, like the notion that there is such a thing as "clean coal." Thus I would probably offend some, but not all, of the people who work in that industry.

It makes no difference either whether Johnny Ethanol is a corn lobby employee or not, although I have no problem whatsoever with suggesting that he is a shill, nor do I have any problem with him suggesting in return that I am a shrill. My positions are clear enough, and I still assert that I am right. Johnny Ethanol's positions are also clear enough, and I assert that they are silly and uneducated, irrespective of any degrees Johnny Ethanol may or may not have. If he does have degrees of any kind, I would suggest he would do a service to the issuing institution by not mentioning its name.

I like Xemasab. I often disagree with her - for instance on the subject of whether carbon sequestration is a plausible approach or not - but she is, unlike me, graceful, cheerful and very pleasant. Beyond the efficacy of the Carson sequestration plant, I also disagree with her about whether or not it is a big deal whether anyone calls anyone else a "shill." I think she's overly sensitive in this case because she is a power company employee. If so, she need not be worried. Her perspective, at least to me, is very worth hearing because it is about the world as it is actually happening and is not derived from naive ideals. I have no question about her right or her motivations to be here. She has a good job and an important job. Hers is precisely the perspective that political parties like the Democrats must have if we are to succeed at governing.

I don't give a rat's ass whether anyone thinks I am a shill or not. The nuclear lobby's positions are all supportable, whether or not the people who advance them are paid to do so or not. I hope the nuclear lobby is paying people to support their cause, because frankly the patent stupidity of the people who object to them needs to be addressed.

In general, if one is sufficiently skilled at thinking, one can determine quite readily whether the points made by the corn lobby, or the nuclear lobby, or the Exxon-Mobil lobby are true or not simply through the use of critical thinking.



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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-27-07 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. reticent as always......
seriously Nnadir, we get that you support nukes but how do you feel?....Because the people who disagree with you feel strongly that they cannot trust an industry which touts and wonderful safety record yet is used as a repeated excuse for going to war.

Truly, on this issue, nobody gives a rats ass what data you put out because their feelings say the industry you promote is lying it's collective ass off. So maybe you should try catching flies with honey.



Just saying.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-27-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Who has used this excuse, the nuclear industry?
Only one war has used nuclear issues to go to war, the most recent one, and that appeal was made directly to the nuclear ignorance that I hear here.

Anyone who bought this crap about weapons of mass destruction - I knew immediately it was a lie - was hearing what they wanted to hear. They were ill-informed and ignorant, and I said as much at the time. Everybody with an ounce of sense knows that the war was not about WMD but about oil.

The nuclear industry does not lie, and I despise people who make choices based on feelings rather than data.

I am who I am. I am perfectly satisfied that a number of people have changed their position on nuclear energy after hearing what I have to say, no matter how I say it.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. What about us spoiled rich scientifically illiterate trust fund kids
Edited on Thu Jan-25-07 12:04 PM by jpak
who cannot add, or subtract, or multiply, or divide...and who lack critical thinking skills????

Can't we get sum luv 2????

:evilgrin:

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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Hey, did you know Merle Haggard was a spoiled rich trust fund kid
He was extolling the virtues of solar on this last weekends AAR 'Ring of Fire' program.

Not that I would call him that to his face . . .
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Nooooooooo, not Merle!!!!!!11111
The power of the Dark Side is strong in this side of the Galaxy...

:evilgrin:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. He lives in Redding, CA too
:D
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Sure, It's easy to promote solar in Redding.....
the place gets hotter than snot every summer. Try promoting wind power in Redding and you look like an idiot. There's never a breeze up there when you need one.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. They get as much rain as Seattle in the winter though
:shrug:
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. Coming from someone who is an obvious shill for birds and brocccoli...
I don't know if I can accept that.

:hi:
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. You're just another shill for the shills...
:rofl:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-27-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. I found my shills..
..on DU's EE hills
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-27-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Groan...
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