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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:32 PM
Original message
Look - I know I am right about this.
We cannot possibly plant enough acres to burn ethanol. Ethanol has its own set of problems - I won't get into.

But I KNOW - we do have enough synthetic reserves to last a thousand years. I do not propose we wait a thousand years - but we DO NOT need the middle east now. We may have to pay 4.00 a gallon for gasoline - we probably will anyway. But we can keep our money here. What is velocity of a dollar in the 21st century?

If we burned syns - it is so much cleaner. It may give us the needed time to convert to another fuel base that is truly clean. If we don't - aren't we really funding the third world war against us - we would be.

I am telling you - the oil companies know that too. They will go along. It is the right thing to do.
Carter was very close to home on this once. More than you know.

Joe


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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. "synthetic reserves" are what exactly?
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. I know what you are talking about. But you need to explain a little better
for the non tech based among us.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. My father - the fighter pilot - he ended up operations director
of Gulf Oil. He was a better democrat than me, too - I'll say that.

Look - there are two ways to produce a syn oil. Can be drawn from coal. Can be -it is better you draw it from oil shale. I say a thousand year reserve - I am talking about the shale component.

Oil is produced at pressure and temprature. The perfect crude- the sweetest (lowest sulfur content) is produced at 350 degrees. That is the difference between Brent oil and Saudi oil- it is the sulfur content - you see.

There was a time that oil companies were run by engineers and geotechs - now so you know - they are run by lawyers and accountants - it is a warning. There is not a lot of time before those people are reduced to obscurity now.

I'd say -you know the Germans ran a war on two fronts and kept their industry running on a syn oil. Fact seems to be lost in the mess.

No thirld world war. If that happens - why would it even make a difference how we run our cars today. Cause we will be dead in a few years anyway.

We are running out of time - I am not the only one that knows these things. God I better not be.

Joe





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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. not that it's relevant but the development of synthetic oil by the Germans
is what made the jet engine possible, petroleum based lubricants can't take the high heat, best I remember
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I think I did not explain any better for you.
I am sorry.

At the turn of the 20th century - my fathers family - if they survived the executions - and didn't inherit the money - they were priests and soldiers.

Once they hit America - they discovered enginering.

I can say now - yep Uncle John got cannonized - my other uncle John commanded in the 3rd army and my dad (324th hero) ran gulf oil as a mech/struct engineer - yep - that is my family alright.

So, you put my fathers family in a room - they could probably rebuild Rome. My mothers family - old country - they were probably executed because they were slavs in 1942-44.

I was born in Pennsylvania - with my mothers family - and my brothers - they weren't officers in the war - so, I have a very mixed take on this.

Remember - I am one of those accountants I think should NEVER have been allowed to run an oil company.

Joe








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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do you mean coal-based synfuels?
:shrug:

--p!
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. NoI don't.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Shale oil
I read the posts made since the last one I made.

I'm not sure we have a thousand years of the stuff, but I do understand that we have a lot of it.

The problems remain -- it's a carbon (greenhouse) gas source, and it is currently uneconomical to produce. In addition, the technology in current use is environmentally filthy.

All of those factors could change, though. Technology improves. Markets change.

But there is still a major concern that cuts across all energy technologies -- we are running out of time and no new source of energy can ramp up fast enough to prevent severe "economic dislocation" the way we are going. I am not optimistic, but not because of any technical or resource shortage.

So, what's the story-behind-the-story on shale oil? Is it set to break out?

--p!
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. As an economy - no opinion.
As alternative to WWIII - yeah - I like it.


I know - in 1979 - they figured they could mass produce for less than 2.00 a gallon - 1979 dollars -

So something around 4.00 now.

Plans were drawn to do exactly what I am saying - with the blessing of Carter.

No matter who says what- the guy WAS smart.

I am personally scared they replaced engineers with lawyers - we should all be.

Joe


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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've paid 3.95 for gas within the last month
:P
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. So did I.
I think we are there - I hope so. This has to end now.

I was in my fourth year of accounting that last embargo. I knew exactly what was going on.

I know what was planned - god's sake - why do you think Carter did that deal - US Synthetic Fuels Corp - think he thought that up all by himself?? Don't think they backed that??


Christ sake - they just want to make a profit day to day - they can't think further than that.

Gore is right in the end - we just better figure out how to get from here to there.

And if we don't - -

Joe



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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. One of the guys in my band is a farmer and he says..................
that even the efficient farmers are being driven out of the business due to the cost of feed. He's never seen anything like it.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, your friend is right.
Man, I am a valley kid- From elementary school to college - I am a valley kid.

Thats the SFV - in California. But I was born on a river in Pennsylvania - and the family I knew growing up - they didn't know what I came to know.

Their daddy didn't run an oil company.

I am warning all of you - not about being republican or democrat - there is a changing of the guard going on here. The engineers are being replaced by lawyers and accountants and it is very dangerous.

There is something really bad happening here - and we better stop it. Or we will pay.

This isn't even republican or democrat anymore - it is more than that.

Joe



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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. "This isn't even republican or democratiC anymore - it is more than that."
So very true, Joe. On not just your front but an astonishingly large number. On all of them, the capable class is being driven out by the Loyal Bushies.

Just like the Afrikaeners did to the "liberal" British.

You bet your bottom dollar that Rove, Cheney, are reading from that playboook. Not to mention Hitler's, Orwell's, Marcos' and to a lesser degree, Caesar's.

And yes, the profound changes in having a Justice Department now run by Loyal Bushies with no allegiance to the law but only to Glorious Leader and The Penguin.

We dare not allow the "Communist" Pat Roberston puritans, zealots, and crazies to overrun our government, although that is exactly what happened.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Actually - I am pretty christian - my uncle is a f*cking saint and all
that. (Never said I was).

Robertson - he is a bastard - so is Fallwell - they are NOT real. I know real.

You think the brother of your brother is worthy - maybe you are too - if you don't - don't bother to apply. It is the way it is.

I studied business in school. And dad ran that oil company. Maybe I am wrong aout everything else.

Not that though.

Not from my family.

Joe
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Good on you, Joe.
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 04:49 PM by tom_paine
As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say, "if Christ hadn't delivered the Sermon on the Mount, with its message of mercy and pity, I wouldn't want to be a human being. I'd just as soon be a rattlesnake."

I don't know if my sentiment is that extreme, but it is similar to Vonnegut's in it's respect for the words of Christ and yes, indeed, the Sermon on the Mount may be the greatest thing written on that topic ever. Whether or not Christ was the Son of God or just a very great, compassionate, and wise philosopher, his words and his writings are for the ages. It is the most tremendous tragedy that through history, his message has been distorted and used to preach essentially anti-Christianity, as the Bushies use it today.

I extend my hand to you in brotherhood and friendship, sir.

The tide is turning against the Loyal Bushies. America is fighting back.

PS Like you, I very much wish Wes Clark to be a member of the 2008 Democratic ticket. I would like to see a Gore/Clark ticket most of all, but first Wes has to get in the race, and I'm no longer certain he's going to do that.

PPS Could you please call it the Democratic Party, not democrat party. You have been around DU long enough to know that the Gingrichites and Bushies use that word the same way the KKK use the word "Jew" as in "He's a Jew Lawyer." No, "He's a Jewish Lawyer. "He's a Democrat Lawyer." No, "He's a Democratic Lawyer."

The semantics of the two slurs are 100% identical. Think about it.

Democratic is an adjective and should be used as such.

Democrat is a noun, and should be used as such.

I don't mean to be a jerk about it, but this is a sore spot for a lot of people, the democrat party slur. And if you didn't know, I apologize, but I thought I'd let you know.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Fischer-Tropsch chemistry is what all environmentalists must fight.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 09:26 PM by NNadir
If you think oil was a disaster, wait until you try Fischer-Tropsch.

Carter was wrong about syn fuels.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Carter was pretty smart - smarter than given credit now.
He was a nuclear officer - he deserved it.

He was VERY smart. Not just me saying it.

Joe
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I didn't say he was dumb. I said he was wrong.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:03 PM by NNadir
I like Jimmy Carter now, but his policies as President were often wrong.

He was wrong on plutonium.

He was wrong with his love fest for the Shah of Iran.

The worst thing he did though was to put the syn fuels bit on the table. Now, in 1977, he might have been excused on the grounds that climate change was not understood at the time. However coal was about as filthy then as it is now even without climate change.

But in 2007, thirty years later, the syn fuels idea should be clearly seen for what it is: an unmitigated disaster.

The Fischer-Tropsch idea will work. In fact it is already industrial in Tennessee (for chemical synthesis of acrylates - normally produced from natural gas or oil) and in South Africa. It operated in Germany during World War II.

But when syn fuels "work" they will work very much like a gun in a game of Russian Roulette, six chambers, six bullets.

The use of coal must be banned, not expanded.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I think I do. I am not exactly liberal dude - but I am a moderate.

WHen is it that syns equal coal - when did that happen???

You don't know what you are talking about do you??


Use of coal must be banned - do you know why??

Joe
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Sigh...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas

In fact syn gas has been made from coal for almost a century.

Here's just one of a thousand papers discussing how it's done:

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/enfuem/1996/10/i01/abs/ef950121y.html

Whatever. You're sure you're right.

I will fight any Fischer-Tropsch plant I hear of.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Papers- My father ran the goddamn company.
Tell me just what you learned from the internet.


Joe
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. NNadir is a zealot for *not* wanting to burn fossil fuels for 1,000 years?
Yeah, let's not worry about it. Just move inland a few hundred miles and put the TV on.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. Here's an interesting article on Colorado oil shale
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 06:25 AM by GliderGuider
The Illusive Bonanza: Oil Shale in Colorado: “Pulling the Sword from the Stone”(pdf warning)

It has a good set of references to reports from DOE, RAND and the University of Colorado. Unfortunately, it also contains commentary like this:

Buried beneath the ground, in Colorado and Utah, are a trillion tons of oil shale. Throughout the 20th century, men have tried and tried again to unlock the energy contained in these rocks. To date, all efforts have failed. But every twenty or thirty years, when energy prices spike, a new attempt is mounted. The persistence is understandable: whoever unlocks this resource would capture a trillion dollar prize. But oil shale’s track record is not encouraging. The rocks are stubborn, an illusive bonanza, promising much, delivering little. Despite a century of trying and $10 billion in investment, oil shale currently provides an infinitesimal 0.0001 (or one ten-thousandth) of world energy. This paper explains why oil shale is so difficult to unlock, and why the “rock that burns” may never provide more than one percent of U.S. energy.

(...)

As a rule, nations don’t tap oil shale unless they are destitute. The world’s primary producer has been Estonia, a Baltic nation lacking in coal, natural gas, oil, or hydropower. When Russian natural gas and nuclear power became available, Estonia began to phase out its shale oil industry. Elsewhere, small amounts of shale have been mined in China, Brazil, and Russia. Most recently, a well-funded and much-ballyhooed Australian oil shale experiment failed. Tellingly, one partner in that bankrupt project was Suncor, a successful developer of Canadian tar sands. After losing $100 million, Suncor now appreciates the critical distinctions between tar sands and oil shales. There are two ways to produce shale oil. Typically, the rock is mined like coal. After being loaded and trucked to a processing plant, the shale is crushed and fed into an enormous kiln (or “retort”), where it is roasted to 1,000 degrees F. The heat “cracks” the kerogen, whose distilled vapors can be refined into a liquid fuel. Retorting oil shale is capital intensive, messy, inefficient, and polluting. It consumes lots of energy and water. The slag, swollen in volume and contaminated with arsenic, must be safely disposed. The entire process is so costly and laborious that global production has never exceeded 25,000 barrels a day, compared to today’s 84,000,000 barrels of total oil production. Retorting a million barrels each day, as some propose, would entail mining and disposing of 700 million tons per year, digging the world’s deepest open pit mines, constructing a hundred retorts, and planning new cities to house tens of thousands of workers. In sum, it would be the largest mining operation in the world. In the last ten years, Royal/Dutch Shell has experimented with a new way to produce oil shale, a way that is, at first glance, less destructive and more promising.

(...)

Although Shell’s method avoids many of the negative impacts of mining oil shale, it requires a mind-boggling amount of electricity. To produce 100,000 barrels a day would require raising the temperature of 700,000,000,000 pounds of shale by 700 degrees F. How much power would be needed? A gigabunch—in rough numbers, about $500,000,000 per year. The least expensive source for electricity is a coal-fired power plant. How much coal, how many power plants? To produce 100,000 barrels per day, the RAND Corporation recently estimated that Shell will need to construct the largest power plant in Colorado history, large enough to serve a city of 500,000. This power plant, costing about $3 billion, would consume five million tons of coal each year, producing ten million tons of greenhouse gases, some of which would still be in the atmosphere a century from now. To double production, you’d need two power plants. One million barrels a day would require ten new power plants, five new coal mines.

(...)

What contribution can oil shale make to energy security? Producing 100,000 barrels per day of shale oil does not violate the laws of physics, if the price of conventional crude rises high enough it might be economic. But the nation is currently consuming 100,000 barrels of oil every seven minutes. Increasing the efficiency of America’s automobiles by two miles per gallon would save ten times as much fuel each year, saving consumers $40 billion at the pump. The National Academy of Sciences has stated that bolder efficiency targets—cars, trucks, and SUVs getting 30, 40 or 50 miles per gallon—are doable and affordable. An aggressive national commitment to fuel efficiency is not optional, it’s inevitable. In time, a more efficient fleet could save 20 times as much petroleum as oil shale will ever provide. Dreams and hype aside, oil shale is the poorest of the fossil fuels, containing far less energy than crude oil, much less even than hog manure, peat moss, corn pellets, household garbage, or Cap’n Crunch. A meager amount of energy, tightly bound up in an enormous volume of rock, oil shale seems destined to remain an illusive bonanza, the petroleum equivalent of fool’s gold.


With all due respect to your fighter-pilot dad, this looks like a truly horrible idea. Fortunately it also looks like it's too hard to do.
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Best summary of the shale problem I've ever seen.
Thank you, GliderGuider.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. There's this thing called global warming
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 01:58 PM by NickB79
Maybe you've heard of it, it's about to kill billions over the next century, and burning fuels such as synthetic crude contributes to it.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. A lot has changed in the last 30 years
and having learned that:

1) full fuel cycle greenhouse gas emissions for coal-based synfuels are nearly twice as high as their petroleum-based equivalent, and
2) those same gas emissions are likely responsible for the global warming crisis

it's not likely that Jimmy is still on board with synfuels -- at least the coal-based variety.
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