Actual Headline Of The Year!! "Hydrogen Cars May Be A Long Time Coming"

[hatrack]

WASHINGTON - President Bush's goal of putting the next generation of Americans into cars fueled by hydrogen is slipping away. Technology, economics and human behavior are proving to be formidable obstacles to the president's dream of using hydrogen - the most abundant element in the universe - to reduce America's dependence on gasoline.

The administration's plan is to combine hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell, a boxy device that takes in those elements and puts out water, heat and electricity. The electricity can power an electric motor or recharge a battery to drive a car. However, experts say there are quicker, cleaner, safer and cheaper ways to reduce the tail-pipe emissions from cars and trucks that pollute the air and contribute to global warming. "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases," said Joseph Romm, a physicist who was in charge of renewable energy research in the Carter administration. "If you want to slow down global warming, you're not going to do it with a hydrogen car."

"Other technologies may be less expensive and more quickly implemented," acknowledged JoAnn Milliken, the director of the Hydrogen Program in Bush's Energy Department. "We could decide hydrogen is too far out for major investment" and that there are "other more promising initiatives to invest in." Alternatives include hybrid cars, plug-in hybrids, diesels, biofuels, improved conventional fuels and more efficient engines. (A plug-in hybrid runs on both gasoline and a battery that can be plugged into a socket in your garage at night.)

"A strong case exists for continuing fuel-efficiency improvements from conventional technology at relatively low cost," said K.G. Duleep, the managing director of Energy and Environmental Analysis Inc., a consulting firm in Arlington, Va. Milliken and Duleep were among a panel of scientists, engineers and industry experts that the National Academy of Sciences assembled last month to review the president's $1.2 billion hydrogen initiative, which he launched in his January 2003 State of the Union address.

EDIT

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/17230627.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_nation

:silly:

[Gregorian]

1. Thanks.

But they'll continue building hydrogen cars for some stupid reason.

To be honest, what we need to do is think in a different way. Smaller. Closer. Less. Then we won't need cars. But that's so threatening to most people, it's hard to even think about.


If anyone wants a list of links on hydrogen studies that show we are not ready for a hydrogen economy, I can post them.

[jpak]

2. Some stupid reason - like Peak Oil????

We will need every tool in the box to tackle this one (H2 included).

And - as with many technological advances - Japan and Europe will be the first to commercialize hydrogen technologies (including H2 vehicles).

[Gregorian]

5. It's independent of peak oil.

Where do we get the energy required to generate hydrogen? That is the question. Peak oil or not. It's like saying we can just drink sea water, if only we can remove the salt. That is also an energy prohibitive task.

[jpak]

7. Where to get the energy?? Renewable energy systems - and it's being done today

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=42293

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/newspapers/sunday_times/scotland/article557501.ece

www.hydro.com/library/attachments/en/press_room/utsira_facts_inauguration_1july2004.pdf

www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/docs/wind_hydrogen_ge.ppt

http://www.xcelenergy.com/XLWEB/CDA/0,3080,1-1-1_15531_26314-30916-0_0_0-0,00.html

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/transport.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070501.wbchydrogen01/BNStory/National/home

note: BC will produce hydrogen for its buses with locally produced hydroelectricity.

[Gregorian]

9. If you want to toss links around, look at these.

But first I have to say that of course you are correct. However, and it's not insignificant, just how much energy and materials will it take for the entire united States to convert over to photovoltaic systems? It's far from insignificant. You see, the reason I'm not as optimistic as others is that we're only talking about residential power. That is a fraction of the useage overall. And we are only diminishing a carbon footprint of residential power by a fraction. It's not wholly eliminated. It's amortized over a period of time. And even then, things like batteries can only be recycled or reused in demoted capacities.

Anything is better than what we're doing. But I'm arguing that the modern lifestyle cannot be sustained. That is my main point. Are we going to cling to the car and our vcr's, or are we going to alter our perspective on consumption. We must do more than just renewable energy. Hydrogen is far from free and easy. At least right now.

Here is what one of the state of the art scientific communities has to say about hydrogen as an economy-

http://www.efcf.com/e/reports/

[jpak]

11. Hydrogen cars are nonsense. But hydrogen buses, trucks and trains - yup

And it doesn't have to be all PV, or all wind, or all hydro, or all biomass to produce it either.

Hydrogen storage systems (with other storage technologies) will be used for grid support and hydrogen vehicles, along with electric and biofuel vehicles, will be part of the transportation mix.

They are all part of an imperfect solution to Peak Oil.

[Gregorian]

12. I'm not arguing, but why not just use electricity.

I mean, the amount of energy required to generate hydrogen can just be used directly. Also, regenerative braking is part of energy efficiency. Especially in buses. And that is totally unrelated to hydrogen, unless there is hydrogen storage that is being recharged. I just don't see it.

I'm all ears when it comes to diversity. It doesn't have to be all pv. I just think hydrogen isn't going to be the final frontier. It's a step in the process that literally does not need to be there.

[The2ndWheel]

4. Aren't those the 3 deadly words you can't say on television?

[Gregorian]

8. Yes.

Have you ever noticed how panicked governments become when the birth rate slows? They have fits.

Growth!

I noticed housing starts were down something like 9 percent this month. Nothing could make me happier.

I've just spent the last fifteen years on a quest to find a home that is removed from the sickly evidence of this society. I really can't do it. In the country there's chainsaws cutting forests. In the city there are garbage trucks at 5am. And I'm not living in Death Valley.

To be honest, I opted out of marriage. And I opted out of having children. None of this crap affects me in a very big way. I could just leave DU and keep to myself. I just like to be heard. I sometimes have something to say. Rarely.

[Nihil]

13. O/T

FWIW, I usually enjoy reading your posts and often learn from them
(or am encouraged to reflect upon a different viewpoint).
Keep it up!

:toast:

[Gregorian]

14. Don't encourage me!

What you've said means a lot to me.

And I like being different. I think of it as unique.

Cheers.

[GliderGuider]

3. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future

and it always will be.

:P

[jpak]

6. Then don't be ridin' them BC hydrogen buses to Whistler next year

:P

[GliderGuider]

10. They lost their chance

to build an electric railway and instead put in an asphalt highway designed to carry yet more combustion engine vehicles.
Oh, and the extra parking lots were just an externality.

Thanks Mr. David "Turncoat" Emerson.