Orissa: A Gujarat In The making

[Aidoneus]

Orissa: A Gujarat In The making
By Angana Chatterji
Communalism Combat
02 November, 2003

In Gujarat, Hindu extremists killed 2,000 people in February-March of 2002. Muslims live in fear there, victims of pathological violence.

Raped, lynched, torched, ghettoised. A year and half later, Muslims in Gujarat are afraid to return to their villages, many still flee from town to town. Ghosts haunted by history. Country, community, police, courts — institutions of betrayal that broker their destitution. This is India today.

The National Human Rights Commission recognised the impossibility of achieving justice in Gujarat. The Best Bakery murder trial flaunted dangerous liaisons between government, judiciary and law enforcement. Those who speak out are vulnerable. Outcry against the consolidation of Hindu rightwing forces in India is subdued. In a world intent on placing Islam and Muslims at the centre of ‘evil’, Hindu nationalism escapes the global imagination.

Orissa is Hindutva’s next laboratory. This July, in a small room on Janpath in Bhubaneswar, workers diligently fashioned saffron armbands. Subash Chouhan, state convenor for the Bajrang Dal, the paramilitary wing of Hindutva, spoke with zeal of current hopes for ‘turning’ Orissa. Christian missionaries and ‘Islam fanatics’ are vigorously converting Adivasis (tribals) to Christianity and Dalits (erstwhile ‘untouchable’ castes) to Islam, Chouhan emphasised. He stressed the imperative to consolidate ‘Hindutva shakti’ to educate, purify and strengthen the state.

Western Orissa, dominated by upper caste landholders and traders, is a hotbed for the promulgation of Hindu militancy, while Adivasi areas are besieged with aggressive Hinduisation through conversion. Praveen Togadia, international general secretary of the VHP, visited Orissa in January and August 2003 to rally Hindu extremists. He advocated that Orissa join Hindutva in its movement for a Hindu state in India. ‘Ram Rajya’, he promised, would come.

--snip--

http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-chatterji021103.htm

[varun]

1. Hindu proselytization?

"...while Adivasi areas are besieged with aggressive Hinduisation through conversion..."


Yes, the Hindus are out in full force to convert the world :eyes:

[Aidoneus]

2. it doesn't mention "the world"..

:shrug:

[varun]

3. Adivasis (tribals)...

have lived in India for thousands of years (probably since before Hinduism came to India). Some historians say that they started Hinduism. The Bhils (a tribe in Central India) worship Shiva (a Hindu God)..and have been doing it since a long time.

Why would the Hindus want to convert them NOW, when they have not been converted in 1000's of years?

Besides, most Hindus do not believe in conversion. You are BORN a Hindu, not converted into one.

[varun]

4. I will answer my own question

Why this sudden movement to "convert" Adivasis into Hinduism?

-Because of the aggressive proselytization by the Christian missionaries to convert the tribals into Christianity.

Here's something I just came across while googling "Bhil Tribes":

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~samkong/mission/people.php?people=bhil



The "funadamentalist" Hindus are a "reactionary" force, not the aggressive force. You know who the aggressors are here.

[reorg]

5. aggressive reactionaries recklessly murder and rape minorities in India

The Hindu, Open Page

Tuesday, Jan 22, 2002

What have the communalists learnt from Staines' murder?

Whatever the shortcomings of Gen. Musharraf's much awaited address to the nation might have been, he has at least openly come out to condemn and curtail the activities from Pakistani soil of those spreading terrorism in the name of religion within the country or outside. Within India the challenge is now before our leaders to reciprocate the gesture by banning those who openly challenge the Supreme Court or the government on Ram temple and similar issues and those who spare no efforts to terrorise the minorities in the name of majoritarianism.

THE THIRD anniversary of the now nearly forgotten gruesome murder of Graham Staines and his two sons, Timothy and Philip, falls on January 23. The President, K. R. Narayanan, had then described this repulsive act as "one belonging to the inventory of black deeds of history" and as "monumental aberration from the tradition of tolerance and humanity for which India is known." The act was condemned universally by most people. Some of our leaders, though, who are now busy with the rhetoric of fighting terrorism, had post-haste either given clean chit to the accused militant groups or had suspected a `foreign hand' in it.

(...) the government which is busy fighting cross-border terrorism and the civil society have so far been just mute spectators to this horrible build-up of internal terrorism against minorities. Such silence is only providing the required fuel to those who have no qualms of conscience in doing what they are doing.

(...) another senior VHP leader went one step further to add, "it was not only Islamic fundamentalism which was threatening the country, but the Christian missionaries involved in conversion were as dangerous as Islamic terrorists" (January 11, Asian Age).

It is also Giriraj Kishore who had expressed his views on November 4, 2001 incident of thousands of Dalits, under the leadership of Ram Raj (now Udit Raj), converting to Buddhism. "We have no objection to anyone converting to Buddhism because it is an Indian religion. We have problem only when they convert to Islam or Christianity, because these are alien religions...", he had said.
(...) in view of the forthcoming elections in some States, this can be fruitfully used as proper fodder for the gullible masses. The communal card is being used by all and sundry to woo the voters as the evidence from several recent incidents suggests.

(...) As in the past, after inflaming communal riots the blame is conveniently passed on to the victims of violence as was the case in the Dangs district of Gujarat three years ago and with most of the atrocities (more than 400 in the past four years, according to Home Ministry sources) against Christians. The BJP Rajya Sabha MP, B. L. Prem Sharma, who later converted to Sikhism, on hearing of the Jhabua nuns' rape case, had declared that the nuns had only deserved it and that it was an angry reaction of Hindus to Christian missionaries' conversion work. Thus the current support to Dara Singh is not really a new phenomenon which the civil society unfortunately has not been able to contain yet.

(...)
The question of course is, are all these well coordinated and planned efforts emanating from some central source reflecting the `national sentiment' to `finish the unfinished task', furthering `cultural nationalism', or has it anything to do with the selfless commitment to the nation building in a secular society?

Whatever the shortcomings of Gen. Musharraf's much awaited address to the nation might have been, he has at least openly come out to condemn and curtail the activities from Pakistani soil of those spreading terrorism in the name of religion within the country or outside. Within India the challenge is now before our leaders to reciprocate the gesture by banning those who openly challenge the Supreme Court or the government on Ram temple and similar issues and those who spare no efforts to terrorise the minorities in the name of majoritarianism, including distribution of trishuls to lakhs of unemployed youths in the Hindi belt.

(...)

DOMINIC EMMANUEL
Spokesman, the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India, New Delhi

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/op/2002/01/22/stories/2002012200030100.htm

[varun]

6. your article...

...is outdated. THe Staine's murderer has been sentenced to death (probably the 4th or 5th death sentence in India in the last 20 years or so)...

http://news.indiainfo.com/2003/09/17/17staines.html

New Delhi: Expressing "great satisfaction" over the conviction of Dara Singh in the Staines murder case, Catholic Bishop's Conference of India (CBCI) on September 17 said it hopes that the conviction will serve as an effective deterrent to those who disturb communal harmony and propagate hate agenda.

CBCI in a statement said, "The conviction of the guilty by the court was proof that the truth and justice would prevail. It is a matter of great satisfaction that the law of the land has firmly established that the human rights guaranteed in the Constitution of India are safeguarded and promoted."

Although widow of Graham Staines had forgiven the murders of her husband and children, the law of the land had to take its rightful course in punishing the guilty, CBCI said.

"We, the Catholic Bishops of India have strong faith in the Indian judicial system that plays a crucial role in bringing justice to all sections of people in the country. We pray for the change of heart of all those convicted. We offer them to God so that He might give them sufficient graces to lead a good and virtuous life," they added.

also: http://in.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/22staines.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------

I dont know why you quoted rom an article comparing India with Pakistan (and Musharraf)...

do you really think there is a comparison between a democratic, multireligious, multiethnic, multilingulal country like India, and a terrorist spawning state like Pakistan?

Why did the number of minorities in India rise from 8% to 20% over the last 50 years while the number of minorities in Pakistan drop from 15% to 2%?

[dai]

23. Bangladesh...

Why did the number of minorities in India rise from 8% to 20% over the last 50 years while the number of minorities in Pakistan drop from 15% to 2%?

Pakistan split in 1971, with East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh - and much of Pakistan's religious minority population going with it.

[Bhaisahab]

26. yes there is

do you really think there is a comparison between a democratic, multireligious, multiethnic, multilingulal country like India, and a terrorist spawning state like Pakistan?

varun, if you live in india, you should know that india is "democratic" only in name. truth is, as in every other democracy, only the moneyed classes have access to democratic benefits in india.

its quite alright to compare pakistan and india. the trouble with the middle classes here is that they look at pakistan with condescension. if you remove those tinted glasses of haughtiness, you'll find pakistan to be as multiethnic, multilingual and multireligious as india.

[varun]

27. sure, they are comparable...

...just like Republicans and Democrats :)

I know where you are coming from - We Indians and Pakistanis were the same people once upon a time...but you only have to visit the two countries to see the difference the last 50+ years have created...its like East and West Germany.

As far as democracy in India, it is not perfect. In fact no democracy in the world is perfect. India has had 50+ years of unbroken democracy. It is not perfect, but it is getting better. Pakistan has been ruled by dictators for more than half of its life.

Finally, I'd like to see, as most Indians - a prosperous, democratic Pakistan. It is in India's interest to have peaceful neighbors.

Here's an interesting article by a Pakistani comparing the two countries...

India and Pakistan – a distant view
NADIA BUTT
“Are you an Indian?” “No, I am a Pakistani.” “Oh, means the same...” This was a pithy exchange of information at bus stop in Germany between an old lady and myself. I imagined that the old lady thought so because the Indian and Pakistani women look alike. But it was only my humble illusion.
Let me give yet another example. The other day, a middle-aged man asked me a typical question that is put to every Asian in Europe: “Where do you come from?” “I come from Pakistan.” “Where is Pakistan?” “It is next to India.” “Oh I see, the lost part of India.” Allow me, dear reader, to cite my last shock for you.
One day, a young man, while trying to enlighten me about the status of Pakistan as compared to India, remarked in a nonchalant way that it was wise perhaps on the part of Muslim leaders to make a distinction between secularism and Islamism by creating a separate homeland for the Muslims hence allotting all fundamentalists a comfortable corner in the subcontinent where they could practise their self-defined Islam without being tainted with Hinduism. It was hard to reconcile with the latter part of his views.
Initially I was indeed powerless to hear these conflicting statements, coming from apparently reasonable enlightened Europeans I have just quoted, not because I have any prejudice against India but because I was compelled to question the very foundation of the creation of Pakistan or for that matter the status of my homeland—my motherland—once I had crossed the borders....

for full article, go to:
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Jan-2004/8/EDITOR/op5.asp

[Aidoneus]

7. a few things I wanted to read up on before responding

still a couple other things before I will, one question though that you may be able to help with.

I've heard that of the Christians, and judging from experience elsewhere I believe it. Where (outside, ostensibly) is it that they get the funding for their work?

[varun]

9. This article maybe of some help...

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305819

Proselytization In India: An Indian Christian's Perspective by C. Alex Alexander

Published on Thursday, May 22, 2003
Accessed 5298 Times


Since colonial times to the present, the impetus for Christian proselytizing work in India has largely emanated from Western Christian Church groups and missions. The latter's continuing obsession for promoting religious conversions under the aegis of India's Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom has triggered a raging debate among religious and political leaders of that country. Many Hindus of the Indian Diaspora have also been drawn into it...

[Character Assassin]

8. What crap.

-Because of the aggressive proselytization by the Christian missionaries to convert the tribals into Christianity.

The "funadamentalist" Hindus are a "reactionary" force, not the aggressive force. You know who the aggressors are here.

So, tell me, where have these terribly 'aggressive' Christians resorted to violence?

What does it say about any mindset, philosophy or faith that it would have to resort to intimidation and violence to prevent another faith from be freely adopted?

No one is forced to become an adherent of any faith, including Christianity, regardless of how 'aggressive' proselytizing might be.

There are no aggressors here.

[varun]

10. please read some history...

...before making these comments:

No one is forced to become an adherent of any faith, including Christianity, regardless of how 'aggressive' proselytizing might be.

There are no aggressors here.

[Character Assassin]

11. I am extremely well-versed in history, thanks. Welcome to 2003.

And any past examples simply do not apply in this case. The world has changed, India has changed, missionaries ugly marriage to colonialism is long dead.

Please indicate exactly where any person in India today is being forced to convert to Christianity. Please cite specific examples of 'aggressive' Christians in India today who are utilizing force to gain more adherents to their faith.

[varun]

12. here's one specific instance...

from yesterday's Indian Express:

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=35560

Naga rebels use conversion for control
BHAVNA VIJ-AURORA

ITANAGAR, OCTOBER 17: It is not in jest that people in Arunachal Pradesh say that Naga insurgency is a bigger threat to them than China. Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani voiced the same concern, during his visit here, when he said that Tirap and Changlang districts were facing problems primarily due to Naga rebels...

...And according to the general secretary of Rangfraa Faith Promotion Society in Changlang, Latsam Khimhun, most of these conversions were forcible. Rangfraa is a Hindu tribal who alleges that NSCN (I-M) rebels raided Tirap and Changlang, razed Rangfraa temples, and forced the residents to adopt Christianity.

Quoting an instance, Khimhun said, some NSCN (I-M) members came to Thanyang and Kangkho villages in Changlang on May 13, and again on May 15, asking the people to convert. ‘‘When they refused, the insurgents burnt down the temples,’’ Khimhun said.

Police officers admit that while most cases of forcible conversion go unreported due to threats from rebels, many are coming forward to lodge complaints these days....

[Character Assassin]

13. Please.

That example:

A. Isn't taking place anywhere near the Orrisa
B. Is of an area that has been Christian for quite some time now
C. Is of insurgents bent on revolting from India
D. Is therefore internal and not representative of some overarching tendency of Christianity to force converts in the modern world.

[bemildred]

14. You said:

"Please indicate exactly where any person in India today is being
forced to convert to Christianity."

He did.
Why don't you acknowledge that?

[varun]

15. maybe I should get an incident from 700 Club

...straight out of Pat Robertson's mouth, to convince Character Assassin.

Character Assassin seems to be oblivious to the forcible conversions happening right here in the USA everyday : forcible brainwashing of millions of children in the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples...

Anyway, here's an incident straight out of Orissa:

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/13oris.htm

Court stops father's forcible conversion attempt

Bibhuti Mishra in Bhubaneshwar

Gouri Raul (17) and her twin brother Gautam had complained that their father Giridhari Raul had tried to forcibly convert them to Christianity on March 18.

The police did nothing but a voluntary organisation, Centre for Child and Women Development, came to their rescue and filed a petition in the Orissa High Court on March 27 seeking the court's intervention in protecting the children from their father.

The police, urged on by the court, probed the case then and confirmed the allegation. So the court appointed their neighbours, K R Panigrahi and his wife, as the guardians....

[Character Assassin]

18. Mountain, meet molehill. Molehill, mountain.

Character Assassin seems to be oblivious to the forcible conversions happening right here in the USA everyday : forcible brainwashing of millions of children in the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples...

Given those rather cartoonish parameters, why didn't you include public schools as well? How about cable TV?

If you don't like what a church is saying, walk out. If you're a child, stop going when of legal age. I was forced to go to church as a kid, and I don't now and never did subscribe to what I heard there. In fact, I've been a student of something quite different for years. No brainwashing involved whatsoever, but rather comparing what worked and what didn't.

Your contention, besides being insulting to people of faith, it's simply wrong. Or perhaps best described as 'forcibly stupid'.

Anyway, here's an incident straight out of Orissa:

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/13oris.htm

Court stops father's forcible conversion attempt

Well, golly. There's one incident, and it failed.

[Character Assassin]

16. Fine, it was overbroad. But in regards to the topic of this thread

It was way off.

[bemildred]

17. OK.

[reorg]

19. and why do you fail to acknowledge

that varun is merely grasping for straws?

This discussion is about violent Hindu majoritarianism, of which said forum participant is an active defender. He is probably a member of the VHP, the fascists that are responsible for pogroms being carried out in present day India, individual murders and rape, against minorities mostly of minuscule proportion.

Belonging to a Christian or Muslim minority means -- and has meant in the past -- for tribals and other untouchable outcasts (maybe for separatists in remote areas hardly connected to the Indian mainland, too) that they won't have to accept the role ascribed to them by Hindu society. (As Arundhati Roy has observed: even in the CPI of post-war Kerala the central committee exclusively consisted of Brahmins...) The majoritarians actually don't care and continue to regard them as untouchables. However, conversions seem to work in terms of identity politics, they are a means to get a little self respect and sense of community.

This attempt to get away from the constraints of a basically racist society, and not isolated individual incidents that may or may not have actually happened is what the thrust of this policy against "forced" (laws against alleged "forced" conversions that are currently being implemented define offers of minor material benefits as "force") conversions is directed at.

[bemildred]

20. I didn't make any claims or requests or anything.

I don't have to acknowledge shit.

I'm not defending varun. From what little attention I have paid,
I don't agree with him much. I just thought if you ask a guy to
provide some information, and he does, you should say thanks, or
acknowledge it, or something, otherwise you are just yelling past
each other.

[varun]

22. hmmm...this "VHP" member...

...doubts the existence of a G*D, and does't believe in the Caste System...

This "fascist VHP member" also does not believe in personal attacks:

....This discussion is about violent Hindu majoritarianism, of which said forum participant is an active defender. He is probably a member of the VHP, the fascists that are responsible for pogroms being carried out in present day India, individual murders and rape, against minorities mostly of minuscule proportion....

:shrug:

here's an extract of an interview about Gandhi's views on proselytization:

" In 1921, in reply to a question, “What is the contribution of Christianity to the national life of India?”, from an evangelist of international fame, Dr John Mott, even Gandhiji had to say, “Christianity in India is inextricably mixed up for the last hundred fifty years With the British rule. It appears to us as synonymous with materialistic civilisation and imperialistic exploitation by the stronger White races of the weaker races of the world. Its contribution to India has been therefore largely of a negative character.” An extract from further conversation between Gandhiji and Dr, Mott is given below:

Dr Mott: “What has interested me most, is your work in connection with the removal of untouchability... What is the most hopeful sign indicating that this institution is, as you say, on its last legs?”

Gandhiji: “It is the reaction that is taking place in orthodox Hinduism and the swiftness with which it has come about. As a most illustrious example, I will mention Pandit Malaviya.... Today he takes pride in administering the mantra of purification to the untouchables by the bank of the Ganges, sometimes even incurring the wrath of unreasoning orthodoxy…”

Dr Mott: “But My impression was that Christians would be a great-help to you in this connection. Rev. Whitehead... made some very striking statements abut the effect of Christian mass movement in ameliorating the condition of the untouchables…”

Gandhiji: “I distrust mass movement of this nature. They have as their object not the upliftment of the untouchables but their ultimate conversion. Th is motive of mass proselytization lurking at the background vitiates missionary effort.”

Dr Mott: “There are some who seriously believe that the untouchables would be better off if ‘they turned Christians from conviction, and that it would transform their lives for the better.”

Gandhiji: “I am sorry I have been unable to discover any tangible evidence to confirm this view. I was once taken to a Christian village. Instead of meeting among the converts with that frankness which one associates with a spiritual transformation, I found an air of, evasiveness about them. They were afraid to talk. This struck me as a change not for the better but for the worse.”

Dr Mott : “Do you then disbelieve in all conversion?”

Gandhiji : “I disbelieve in the conversion of one person by another. My effort should never be to undermine another’s faith but to make him a better follower of his own faith. This implies belief in the truth of all religions and respect for them.....”

Dr Mott: “Is it not our duty to help fellow beings to the maximum of truth that we may possess, to share with them our deepest spiritual experiences?”

Gandhiji : “I must again differ from you, for the simple reason that the deepest spiritual truths are always unutterable... It radiates its influence silently as the rose its fragrance without the intervention of a medium.”

Dr Mott : “But even God sometimes speaks through His chosen prophets.”

Gandhiji : “Yes, but the prophets speak not through the tongue but through their lives. A have, however, known that in this matter I am up against a solid wall of Christian opinion.”

Dr Mott : “Oh, no. Even among Christians there is a school of thought-and it is growing which holds that the authoritarian method should not be employed, but that each individual should be left to discover the deepest truths for himself…. In other words they feel that propaganda in the accepted sense of the term is not the most effective method.”

Gandhiji: “I am glad to hear you say this. That is what Hinduism certainly inculcates.”
(Mahatma, Vol. II, pp. 449-51, by D.G. Tendulkar)"

[burythehatchet]

25. You are asking for evidence of an incontrovertible nature

You will not find that ... what you will find is subtle pressure applied through social, cultural, and financial means

[varun]

21. oh G*D...even those violent Buddists are killing the peaceful missionaries

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=232719

[varun]

24. Lets see how "tolerant" the Iraqis are....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=287022