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Listen to the Germans: Oh, What a Sorry State We're In...

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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 12:33 AM
Original message
Listen to the Germans: Oh, What a Sorry State We're In...
...

Countries experience malaise, as Jimmy Carter once put it of the United States (not to his advantage in public opinion), and Germany is quite clearly in that state now. No less a figure than Helmut Schmidt, the former Social Democratic chancellor, said in a recent interview with the weekly Die Zeit, "There is almost no area where Germany stands out with its achievements."

Mr. Schmidt was accused of undue pessimism by Horst Köhler, the departing president of the International Monetary Fund, who is almost certainly going to be elected president of Germany in elections in May. But Mr. Köhler himself, speaking in the same interview, seemed hardly more optimistic. "German culture, German poets and music are always present," he said. "However, when you talk about the future, about future technology and future knowledge, nobody thinks of Germany first."

That is probably true, though it is also probably true that few think of France or China or even Britain in that vein either. Yet those countries do not seem to be in quite the despairing mood that Germany is in. Is the difference perhaps, as some have been saying, Germans just enjoy complaining? Or does it run deeper?

...

Yet the mood, clearly, is bad. The left-of-center coalition government of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has about the lowest poll results of any recent chancellor. If a new election were held now, the opposition conservatives would be swept into power in a landslide. If that does happen in 2006 when elections will be held — and many political experts believe that it will — Germany could potentially be following the pattern of the United States after the Carter malaise and Britain in the depressing years before Margaret Thatcher in opting for a conservative revolution.

...

Among the shocks: the reunification of the two halves of the country, which was enormously expensive for the West but has not created an economically viable eastern half; the realization that the country just cannot afford the social-welfare spending that has been among its greatest achievements; and, perhaps most lastingly, the fear that with the imminent enlargement of the European Union, a lot of far cheaper countries to the East — Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and the Baltic states — are going to draw industries and jobs away from Germany.

In other words, Germans are gloomy because there is a general realization that the formulas that have worked so well for this country in the decades after World War II are not working anymore, and nobody knows exactly what to do. It is in that mood of semiparalysis that a conservative revolution seems possible.

Of course, it is far too early to see if that will happen, and, if it does, it will happen despite a palpable public aversion to Thatcherite reforms. But among experts especially, there is a growing feeling that Germany needs some strong medicine if it is to overcome its difficulties, and strong medicine in Germany would mean something genuinely historic for Europe: a dismantling of the elaborate welfare state in the Continent's biggest and economically most powerful country that would surely reverberate in the other welfare states of Europe.

"Germans have awakened from their dreams of the eternal welfare state," Mr. Sinn said, explaining the gloomy national mood, and giving it an objective basis. "They've been confronted with reality, and that is never nice."


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/international/europe/24LETT.html?8hpib
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Young Socialist Donating Member (83 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. sounds like they're fixing to
burn the reichstag and invade poland again. hopefully we'll stay out of it this time and the french will finally end up speaking german.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. well this time France has neutro bombs
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 11:14 AM by Flagg
bring em Germans on
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes indeed, the state propaganda organs are not at all happy
about all this unification and independent thought going on
in Europe, let alone all the socialist nonsense. Obviously,
there must be some mistake about all that, a "conservative
revolution" looms, nevermind what an oxymoran that is, and
no doubt some "Thatcherite reforms" will be required soon.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. "unification and independent thought"?...
now that sounds like an oxymoron...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Not really, the question is independant of whom?
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 11:53 AM by bemildred
As in: Europe is unifying (itself) and thinking independantly
(from the US). Examples are the European defense initiative
(for the former) and the refusal to support the Iraq war for
the latter. The booting out of Aznar also serves as an example
for the latter, but there is quite a long list.

OTOH conservatism is by definition in opposition to rapid and
fundamental change, hence to revolution, so that is in fact
an oxymoron, the sort of drool that PR flacks just love because
it shuts down one's thought process by its' sheer perverseness.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "opposition to rapid and fundamental change"...
which when it comes to the Middle East...makes the conservatives "radicals"...and the "radicals" conservative...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Being incoherent won't help.
I have no idea what you are on about there.

Well, let me try. "Conservatives" want "rapid and fundamental
change" in the Middle East, and that makes them "radical". I
hope that is it. Well, that makes them not conservative, so
calling them that is a misuse of the word, or perhaps a special
and private meaning, some sort of jargon then.

I suppose the key thing, as is always the case in these disputes,
is that it is others that are considered to be in need of "rapid
and fundamental change" and not oneself, and the opinions of those
considered to be in need of change is not considered relevant to
the question as to what sort and how much change they are imagined
to require. That would merely make them childish and authoritarian,
not conservative.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. you did ascertain my meaning...
so I was hardly incoherent, perhaps, somewhat opaque, but, nothing deserving of insult...

the circular flow that conservatives acting radical makes them not conservative is a good reason to stay away from labeling altogether...

the point that it typically is others that are considered in need of change rather than oneself is well put, and it seems to be against the grain of human psychology to think otherwise...and yes, the best advice in that regard, if one becomes convinced that others need changing rather than oneself, is to not be authoritarian about it, or else, thanks to the human psyche, risk getting nowhere fast...the caveat with that is, there are exceptions to every rule, e.g., when others pose a physical danger and cannot be swayed through more libertarian measures...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes I did figure it out, and yes opaque, not incoherent.
And my apologies if insult was taken. I am finicky about
clarity when I'm not being deliberately opaque myself.

When others pose a physical danger, one must defend oneself,
being careful of course not to pose any more of a physical danger
to others than is required by the circumstances, lest one
invoke a reciprocal response, thus unintentionally perpetuating
the "cycle of violence".

I see no reason to think that because one is threatened, one may
expect to have success in implementing change in others, where
one might not expect such success if one were not so threatened.
In other words, the fact one is threatened does not somehow create
a situation wherein one is not pounding sand in dictating to others
how and whether to change their ways. One must defend one's
boundaries and trust in others to figure out how to deal with it,
or not, as the case may be. People never become what one wants
them to, never. Sometimes with a bit of patience and luck they
do change in ways that are helpful, and often problems dealt with
in a patient and persistent manner just go away after a while. There
is no reason at all to think that any of today's burning issues will
mean diddly-squat in a hundred years or so, and that is a useful
perspective in trying to imagine how to deal with them now.
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