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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 06:04 PM
Original message
Why Arabs Lose Wars
ARABIC-SPEAKING ARMIES have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s. Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming weaponry and numbers. Iraqis showed ineptness against an Iranian military ripped apart by revolutionary turmoil in the 1980s and could not win a three-decades-long war against the Kurds. The Arab military performance on both sides of the 1990 Kuwait war was mediocre. And the Arabs have done poorly in nearly all the military confrontations with Israel. Why this unimpressive record? There are many factors — economic, ideological, technical — but perhaps the most important has to do with culture and certain societal attributes which inhibit Arabs from producing an effective military force.

<...>

Culture is difficult to pin down. It is not synonymous with an individual’s race nor ethnic identity. The history of warfare makes a mockery of attempts to assign rigid cultural attributes to individuals — as the military histories of the Ottoman and Roman empires illustrate. In both cases it was training, discipline, esprit, and élan which made the difference, not the individual soldiers’ origin. The highly disciplined and effective Roman legions, for example, recruited from throughout the Roman Empire, and the elite Ottoman Janissaries (slave soldiers) were Christians forcibly recruited as boys from the Balkans.

These problems notwithstanding, culture does need to be taken into account. Indeed, awareness of prior mistakes should make it possible to assess the role of cultural factors in warfare. John Keegan, the eminent historian of warfare, argues that culture is a prime determinant of the nature of warfare. In contrast to the usual manner of European warfare, which he terms “face to face,” Keegan depicts the early Arab armies in the Islamic era as masters of evasion, delay, and indirection. Examining Arab warfare in this century leads to the conclusion that the Arabs remain more successful in insurgent, or political, warfare — what T. E. Lawrence termed “winning wars without battles.” Even the much-lauded Egyptian crossing of the Suez in 1973 at its core entailed a masterful deception plan. It may well be that these seemingly permanent attributes result from a culture that engenders subtlety, indirection, and dissimulation in personal relationships.

Along these lines, Kenneth Pollock concludes his exhaustive study of Arab military effectiveness by noting that “certain patterns of behavior fostered by the dominant Arab culture were the most important factors contributing to the limited military effectiveness of Arab armies and air forces from 1945 to 1991.” These attributes included over-centralization, discouraging initiative, lack of flexibility, manipulation of information, and the discouragement of leadership at the junior officer level. The barrage of criticism leveled at Samuel Huntington’s notion of a “clash of civilizations” in no way lessens the vital point he made — that however much the grouping of peoples by religion and culture rather than political or economic divisions offends academics who propound a world defined by class, race, and gender, it is a reality, one not diminished by modern communications.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

Interesting stuff here. Lots of DUers know far more about military matters than I do. Comments?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. We're not fighting an army.
This is a guerilla war on THEIR land. What are the odds on winning one of those?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Leaving out the modern Iraq war...
The Arab-Isreali wars of the 2nd half of the 20th century showed that a educated populace has an advantage over a uneducated one.

The Isrealis, from a culture that values education and encourages it, outperformed the Arab foes for many reasons, but one that stands out is that the average Isreali soldier could READ. With literacy rates approaching 100%, a Isreali private could read written instructions and therefore learn to opperate his equipment easily... rumors flew that the Arab (Egypt/Jordan/Syria) troops couldn't read, and that being able to read guarenteed a officer's commission with NO other requirements...
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. the 'if you retreat, you get shot ' policy ...
The 'if you retreat, you get shot by the 'Guards' division', policy,
causes morale problems.
National leadership has one criteria for officers, loyalty.
Numerous other issues, limits the effectiveness of their military.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Past experience is not a guarantee of future results. nt
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TheKingfish Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yea just a bunch of stupid ragheads
Edited on Mon Dec-27-04 07:05 PM by TheKingfish
Lets invade all of their countries, kill all of their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

Thanks for the Military history lesson Ann.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, while he says Arab Cultural, he means Arab politics .
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 11:00 PM by happyslug
It is rare to have a true Dictatorship, with all command coming from one person. Hitler was such a Dictator, as was Stalin, Napoleon and Cromwell, but these are the EXCEPTION not the rule when it comes to dictators. Most Dictators are the first among equals who share power based on the political structure of their country. While the Dictator are the first among equals, they hold their place in power by balancing the various power groups in the Country. People join these groups and these groups morph over time. Thus for example you hear about the "Seven Families" or "Fifteen Families" running this or that Latin American Country. They are rarely Seven or Fifteen Families, but often groups that act together like an extended family. In these dictatorships sometimes these groups number Seven other times 15 (Sometime a number in between), depending on who has power where and who he or she is connected to the rest of the power structure.

Most of the world is organized like this. A leader who stays in power for any length of time is do to his ability to share power with the right people. All of the Arab countries are organized like this and to a limited degree is Corporate America (Look at the Bush and their business partners).

This bring me to one of the points the writer is missing, that these are dictatorships BUT ARE NOT POPULAR DICTATORSHIPS. The Arab Dictators (Be they called "Kings", "Emirs", "President", "Prime Minsters" or even "Caliph") hold power by controlling the means of violence within their country. They have to share with some people to hold on to power but the Majority of people are ignored. Thus the reports of the Officers wanting to control all of the manuals etc. The reports during Desert Storm of Officers deserting their men. These realms do NOT trust their own people and differently do not trust their own enlisted ranks. The Officer Corp is not only to lead the army but to control the enlisted ranks. The enlisted are generally draftees for none of them believe in the leadership (If most of the people drafted would have a vote they would vote OUT the present leadership of their Country). This is the result of these Arab Countries being the type of Dictatorships that they are.

Not to surprisingly the only Arab Leaders who appears to have broken this mode, who is training his enlisted, who gives his enlisted as much power as an American NCO is bin Laden. It is one of the reason he has not been caught.

Furthermore the above is not restricted to the Arab World, you can see it elsewhere. It is most noticeable in the Arab World for once you go out of the Arab world in the wider Moslem's World you have Muslim Countries that are NOT Dictatorships (They may not be Democracies but they are NOT Dictatorships either). For example both Iran and Turkey have good reputation for forming good Armies, than you realize that both countries are the closest thing to Democracies in the Middle East (Out side of Israel, and greater than Israel if you include minorities in the territory controlled by the country, in the case of Israel the West Bank and Gaza). The Leadership of Both Iran and Turkey does have popular support, thus their Military can empower their enlisted, the Officer Corp is to LEAD not to control the enlisted.

Unlike Iran and Turkey the existing leadership of the Arab Countries can NOT afford to permit the Majority to rule, the leadership of every Country would be turned out of office. On the other hand these same countries have to have a Military to fight Israel and each other (and sometime the Iranians and Turks) thus you get the top-down, completely under control military typical of the Arab World.

The closest thing to an army that had the support of most of a Arab Country's population was (and is) the present war between the US and Iraq. The Iraqi army did a decent fight given its limitation after ten years of sanctions (Iraq's army of Desert Storm was more a classic Arab Army as opposed to a "People's Army" i.e. . an army whose mission is supported by the majority of People of a Country, in this war Iraq's army is much more like a "People's Army" than a typical Arab Army).

Thus the problem of Arab Military weakness is NOT "Culture" but the fact you are talking of Countries and People being ruled by a small elite who have little or no popular support. As such the Army has to be top-down army with control as high a possible least any military unit come out to support any popular revolt (Like how the French Army backed the Paris Mob during the Early days of the French Revolution).

Thus it is the fact these are minority supported Dictatorships is the reason for this rigidity of the Arab Military NOT any real "Cultural" problems in forming a Military.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Uh. This is just way to generalized
Must've been reading too much of Raphael Patai's "The Arab Mind."

Sorry-- generalizing about patterns of behavior in Arab culture...

God, I wish folks would just do the work and study issues like

Education
Equipment
Military Tactics
Corps Organization

And then maybe, just maybe, do a comparative study with say those areas in Israel, the US etc.???

Egyptians vs. Yemenis--- Arab v. Arab. Sure sign that this one was full of shit.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agreed
And your base issues are correct as they explain much of the problems. Notice the lack of mention of Jordan's Arab Legion which actually was better than the Israeli Army and only grudgingly was defeated by the Israeli's after a long battle of attrition over a very long and extended line?

The main reason why Israel did so well in 1947-48 and later was their pre-war emphasis on training including the admission of Jewish volunteers into the British army as well as the later formation of the Jewish Brigade which formed the backbone of the 1947 IDF.

L-
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I would also add the issue of fighting for their lives
It's a given, I know-- in the 48-49 war-- the IDF were more unified-- the Arab armies each had their own agendas--tied to those of their "leaders"-- Shlaim does a good job at analyzing this in his work, The Iron Wall.

Too bad the person who wrote the above report didn't do their research. They'd have received a low grade if not failed in one of my seminars.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes
Shlaim did a good job in that book. It's a good overall survey. High level in areas, but to be expected given that it's only one book.

And you are right, I would have failed this one if they were a student.

L-
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Arabs are traditional losers?
The Afghan mujadeen seems to have done rather well against the Soviet army. The fact that a superpower (USA) donated a large supply of highly-sophisticated weaponry (Stinger missiles) to the Afghans helped to make the difference.

The US does support Israel militarily also, so this tends to tip the balance against the Arabs.

If China or Russia were to give some of their latest weaponry to Iraqi resistance, certainly that would be tipping the scales there against the US.

The French did not fare so well against the Arabs in "The Battle of Algiers", which took place between 1952-62.

All things being equal, no country does very well as an occupier in the long run.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Surely you are not trying to suggest this is racist twaddle, are you?
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 08:37 AM by bemildred
:thumbsup:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Read my post #6
The problems with the Arab Armies is that they are NOT product of a popular supported Government. Since almost none of the Arab Governments have popular Support (but believe they need an army) the army has to be one under their control. Such Governments can not permit "empowerment" of their lower ranking officers let alone enlistees. If they permitted such "empowerment" the next thing you know the Government will be overthrown by a more popular supported Government.

People tend to forget that one of the Reason Bismark provided Social Security for the German People was that the German Army was going more and more to "empower" lower and lower ranks. The German People wanted Social Security, the German Army was the German People thus Bismark had to give to the German people want their wanted. Please remember while Germany before WWI was not a Democracy, it was also not a Dictatorship either. Germany ruling's elites took into consideration what its people wanted and was always a "popular" government (Till the Revolutions of late 1918).

The Arab Governments are NOT in that same situation, their leadership is not popular and have no plans of ever being popular. The price of being popular would be sharing the Countries wealth and the leadership likes the wealth share as it is. Thus unlike late 1800 Germany, they is NOT movement to empower the junior Officers, NCOs or enlistees, to do so would risk a popular revolt. Bismark avoided such a revolt by giving the German people want they wanted. The Modern Arab leader do NOT want to give the Arab people want they want.

Thus the Arab armies are top down control armies, without any of the flexibility needed to truly win against a modern Army that does empower its junior Officers, NCOs and Enlistees.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. Meanwhile
the US is now openly admitting that their is "a broken force."

Mercenaries hired to fight these worthless Arabs, were treated to a barbecue in Fallujah which event triggered the commencement of the Iraqi Intifadah. Said mercenaries have themselves fled, long ago, to bask on the beaches that were hit by the tsunami. It is an ill wind ...

Over in Palestine, little girls are shot on their way to school and Jenin has become a football field.
Yasser Arafat is dead and buried BUT the Palestinians are STILL THERE and their numbers are growing despite "losing" the war.

To the victor goes that which is spoiled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. I guess he didn't notice that Iraq and Afghanistan, who don't even HAVE
militaries are kicking our asses.
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