So who's our friend between Clinton and Obama?

[solinvictus]

Obama's website proclaims his belief in the Second Amendment for "hunting and target shooting" which has nothing to do with its inclusion into the Bill of Rights.
Clinton's website says nothing.

Of the two, who do we trust to protect our Second Amendment rights?

[texastoast]

1. Me.

And you should plan on protecting them yourself.


If we get to that.

[mitchtv]

2. Neither can be trusted

as far as I can see, but I am bitter

[MercutioATC]

3. True...neither has been a steady advocate of gun rights.

I'm bitter, too.

[solinvictus]

4. OK...

Has either Clinton or Obama had a photo-op duck hunting,skeet shooting, or one of the more acceptable images of firearms usage?

[virginia mountainman]

5. I am hopeful of either one of them,

Having an epiphany on this issue, no photo ops, no pressers...

Just a statement that they will not push anymore gun control, would be enough for me.

They both have said they agree with the individual rights view...But, it is a conditional view...That is a clear improvement over the past pres contenders, but still not good enough.

They still have their heads up Sara Brady's republican asshole on this issue.

[tavalon]

14. Oh, get over your bad self

There won't be any announcement one way or the other. This is a wedge issue and a political suicider. No one is going to say anything one way or the other. And I promise you, if a President, whether Republican or Democrat gets assassinated, gun laws will become more strict, otherwise, it is a non-starter as a political vote getter. Too divisive, either way.

[SteveM]

23. "Too divisive..." but both Dem. candidates are talking about it...

Nothing personal, but this is a curious state of affairs. Many who post on this subject say, in essence: "The gun-control issue is (variously) a non-starter, a non-issue, too divisive, etc." These comments usually come up right after either HRC or BO speak out on gun issues. Strange, but perhaps the candidates know more about the potential of the issue than rank 'n' file Democrats.

There is a tendency for Democrats in the modern (post-LBJ) era to deny or back-burner an issue until someone smokes 'em out. This is a dangerous passive-aggressive approach which allows the "opposition" to frame Democrats effectively and rather permanently, both in terms of the instant issue and in terms of a secretive and uncourageous character in general.

BTW, the "gun-control movement" is rather modern, coming as it were after the 60's and its assassinations and violence. In terms of welding together a fiercely aggressive and durable coalition, the "movement" has been the best thing to happen to the GOP. We need to change this. We need to get out front on this and other issues and prevent the GOPers from getting anymore cheap wins.

[Firethorn]

59. Hunting isn't all that...

Might be an 'acceptable image' to non-gunners, but, as is often pointed out here by benEzra, 4/5ths of gun owners don't hunt.

You also have to be careful, Kerry talked about going deer hunting, but messed up the description such that real hunters figured he was lying.

[MercutioATC]

6. Well, new info pertaining to this question:

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation/elections/presidential/17543469.html

(it's in the last paragraph)


I think the OP's question has been answered.

[solinvictus]

7. Renew the AWB...

...even though it's had no bearing on crime and concerns itself with cosmetic issues.

[MercutioATC]

8. Exactly. It's trash legislation designed to appeal to the ignorant.

"Black guns are bad"

[virginia mountainman]

9. They said the same thing about people once.....

[old mark]

56. black is bad...

It's about the same level of politics - cheap shot, no effort, no basis in reality.
Recall George Bush I's speech in which he stated he was against burning the American flag...
Thank you, Mister President.

Have a great day.

mark

[jody]

21. "Clinton also renewed her call for reinstating the assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004."

Who is advising her on RKBA?

BO has called for a ban on semiautomatic firearms.

All we need now is a picture of either BO or HC invited to a goose hunt and a picture of them posing with a Remington model 11-87 given them to remember the event.

[east texas lib]

10. Both will say what they must to get elected...

After that, it will depend on what the political cost is for not supporting 2A rights.
On this issue, I don't really trust any politician because their first priority is their
own politcal career.

[virginia mountainman]

11. Here has been what I have been working for..

The past several election cycles...

Since for some reason our party has a hard time with a "pro-civil" rights presidential candidates...

I have been spending my time and fortune, on helping load up the state level political positions, congressman, and senators, with "Pro civil" rights folks..

With great success!!!!!!

Nationally, we are winning...we have been successfully loading up the US congress and US Senate, with pro "Bill of Rights" people, in EVERY ELECTION CYCLE, since 1994. We have ousted "Anti-Civil" rights politicos from both parties, and replaced them with "Pro Civil" rights Democrats.

We have a solid majority in the congress now, plus a small majority in the Senate....I think a "Anti civil rights" president would be very much curtailed by that fact.

If President Obama or Hillery, start to lean on them, their would be significant resistance, from their own caucus.

[SteveM]

24. Damn good point...

If President Obama or Hillery, start to lean on them, their would be significant resistance, from their own caucus.

I don't know too much about modern campaigns via the Internet, but Obama's (taking just one) is seen as the cutting edge in terms of using the 'net for fund-raising, local organizing and coordinated communication. If Obama slips back against ANY issue (from guns to Iraq) this new network won't stand for it. And fast, too.

[iverglas]

33. what's a President Hillery?

[krispos42]

12. Probably Obama

He's a constitutional scholar. The Supremes are probably going to rule that the Second applies to an individual right, so hopefully he'll just say it's up to the states and leave it at that.

Clinton just came out for reinstating some kind of "assault weapons" ban, and I doubt she's flexible enough to change on that issue, her being part of the DLC and all.

[tavalon]

13. We've lost most of our other Amendment rights

Why don't we just assume that taking your gun away isn't necessarily going to be on the top of anyone's list. They've got way too much shit to clean up from the poo flinging monkey and his handlers. Stop worrying about straw men - they don't mean shit in the bigger picture.

You may never get the chance to have fully automatic weapons legally again. I'm sorry if it bothers you that I just don't care, but I don't and neither does any politician out there. You know as well as I do, that short of another Presidential assassination attempt, there won't be big encroachments on gun ownership. It's a lead potato, so to speak. So, keep all of the gun lovers from shooting anyone important enough for them to have to care and your guns are safe.

[virginia mountainman]

16. Shows how much you THINK you know

Machine guns are legal in most states....

Federal restrictions are basically a 200 dollar tax, and a more stringent background check, but if you can pass the current NICS check, you will be fine.

State regulations vary, for example, in Virginia, their is a registration of such guns, and a $50 fee.

Here is the form....

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/sp-115.pdf

[tavalon]

17. I didn't claim to be an expert at gun issues

I am, however, really good at recognizing a straw man argument, wherever it raises its ugly head.

[virginia mountainman]

18. Straw man...

You said...

You may never get the chance to have fully automatic weapons legally again.

I showed you the err of your comment.. You then reply with:

I am, however, really good at recognizing a straw man argument, wherever it raises its ugly head.

My reply to that is...

Audible Grone *Says out loud to myself* ":wtf: did that come from?!?!" * realizes it is useless, Shakes Head, walks away*

[tavalon]

19. Gun control is a straw man

And it's spelled groan.

[Lasher]

41. Three points, nothing but net!

[Firethorn]

47. But the registry is closed...

So, in addition to the $200 tax, because no new machine guns can be legally registered, you can't get anything full auto for less than ~$5k. For a gun that'd cost ~$500 to manufacture new.

I don't make that much money.

[SteveM]

27. Often, in defeat, we claim the game wasn't really important...

See my post above (#23). You say:

I'm sorry if it bothers you that I just don't care, but I don't and neither does any politician out there.

But Hillary and Barack both have spoken to the issue within the last 48 hours and will continue to do so. Sure you don't care?

You say:

So, keep all of the gun lovers from shooting anyone important enough for them to have to care and your guns are safe.

It seems you have a well-seasoned animosity toward gun owners (you know, "__________ lovers", is something those of us raised in the deep South have had to put up with until modern times). This animosity WILL reveal its head again (completely aided by the culture warriors in MSM) if the gun-control "movement" sees any advantage to push its message. And the GOP will frame and define successfully again as well. Don't encourage them.

[beevul]

15. Obama...

Obama did vote yes on a bill that would prevent gun confiscation in the event of natural disasters did he not?

And clinton voted against that bill, did she not?

[jody]

20. HC voted against an amendment against confiscation but then voted for the bill against confiscation.

[Algorem]

22. looks to me like obama thinks there's a lotta unseemly gunclinging

going on,particularly amongst 'bitter small-town types'.guess everybody's fine in the city amogst the urbane.

maybe he wants to legislatively pry those guns from their warm,alive clingy hands.

[SteveM]

25. Still safe from guns in the big city, partner? I hear thar ain't any in Chi, D.C., S.F., etc.

[Algorem]

26. the enlightenment and sophistication that prevails in the modern

American metropolis prevents any clingosity or bitteristicness.

[SteveM]

28. So Baltimore has stopped "clingosity or bitteristicness"?

[Algorem]

29. I think we can safely (DUCK! oap.sorry just a stray M-80)) say that

Baltimore has a very low bang!-or-boom!-to-citizen ratio compared to your average rusthick town across the fruited plane.I'm confident Barack would concur on this point.

[SteveM]

30. I'd check the per capita murder rate of Baltimore again.

[spin]

31. Murder rate of Baltimore is only 5.48 times the nation avg...

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Baltimore&state=MD

compared to Tampa, Fl 1.67 times the national average.
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tampa&state=FL

compared to Chicago 2.70 times national average:

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Chicago&state=IL

compared to Allentown Pa. 1.47 times national average: (106.366 population.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Allentown&state=PA

compared to the murder rate capital New Orleans 7.54 times the national average:

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+Orleans&state=LA

At least Baltimore has a lower murder rate than New Orleans!!!

[benEzra]

45. Certainly Baltimore has a much lower rate of *lawful* gun ownership.

Your rate of criminal gun misuse is among the highest in the nation, however.

[gatts]

32. Friend? Neither.

Neither individual has signed on to the Congressional amicus brief for Heller as of February 2008. The President of the Senate, and more than half of the Senate, and much more than half of the House of Representatives did sign onto it. This is the case most likely to get legal recognition of the Second Amendment as recognizing anything at all.

You can't trust someone who doesn't recognize the Second Amendment to protect it.

Which one's less bad? Depends on what you're into. Hillary's gone on record as a fan of the oh-so-useful Assault Weapons Ban. The original version of that's not particularly deadly, but the Carolyn McCarthy (Dumbass-N.Y.)'s constantly trashed version, H.R. 1022, would pretty much outlaw a vast majority of firearms. If you're after light-weight scary rifles, that's not good, but it does leave some handguns (mostly revolvers) alone. Obama doesn't have as much of a record, but he has answered in the positive about a complete ban on semiautomatics. Don't worry, it was apparently just one of his workers. Audacity of Hope, which he still says he wrote, pretty much outlines an exemption in the Second Amendment for cities.

[gorfle]

34. I'll be voting for the Democratic candidate.

I'll be voting for the Democratic candidate this election no matter what. I prefer Obama.

I am still wary of the Democratic Party's stance on firearms, but I want change from the current regime more than anything.

[chunkstyle5]

35. Obama = Joyce Foundation.

BHO sat for 4 years on the board of Joyce. Joyce funds Million Moms, Brady, HCI, and a bunch of other anti organizations. No other organization is worse for gunowners than Joyce, save maybe Sara Lee, Inc. Hillary might be a hater, but there's no doubt about Obama. Indeed, Hillary might have learned her lesson from Bill's endorsement of the '94 AWB, but I wouldn't count on it. Not that McCain would be much better, though.

As for me, while I will be voting Democrat for all kinds of local races, chances are good I might split my ticket when it comes to President.

[iverglas]

36. "Not that McCain would be much better, though"

So ... he'd be some better?


As for me, while I will be voting Democrat for all kinds of local races, chances are good I might split my ticket when it comes to President.

Being a foreigner who votes in parliamentary-style elections, I'd appreciate clarification of that expression.

You will be voting Democrat for all kinds of local races, but chances are good you might "split (your) ticket when it comes to President".

That means ... vote Republican?


When do you expect to make up your mind?

[chunkstyle5]

44. To reply directly to your question...

I can give you this quick primer in American politics.

Yes, a voter can choose members of different parties to be his representatives, in different offices. I could prefer a Republican for city council, a Green for Mayor, and independent for school board, a Democrat for state Assembly, a Constitutional for state Senate, a Libertarian for Governor, Grass Roots (yes, a real party) for state Attorney General, a Natural Law for House rep, and a Socialist for Senate. All while writing in a name for President. I'm not inclined to make such a stew for myself, but I'm sure there's those who have.

In the US, voting a member of one party for one office does not oblige you to vote for that same party for other offices, save that of President and Vice-President, who run together, and Governor and Lt. Governor, who do so as well, in most states.

So, yes, I can vote Democrat for my Senator (in my case Al Franken vs. Norm Coleman), and also Mayor, and city councilman, and state House Rep., etc., all while voting Republican, or third-party, or write in, for President. And I am sorely tempted to do so, this year.

When will I decide? Likely shortly before Election Day, if I do not hear something more encouraging than I have been from my Democratic candidates first.

[iverglas]

50. believe it or not ...

I actually knew all that ...

So I guess we'll just have to bookmark this thread and nudge it back up top when the time comes, so you can let us know your decision.

[apocalypsehow]

38. As for me

You said: "As for me, while I will be voting Democrat for all kinds of local races, chances are good I might split my ticket when it comes to President."

As for me, I have a feeling "chunks" will be voting a straight party ticket this year. And I have a further feeling that 95% of the fine "law-abiding Democrats" I've run across in this tidy corner of DU will be joining him.

[chunkstyle5]

43. Is it really all about your feelings?

To be frank, I have voted for Democrats for Presidents my entire adult life, starting with Jimmy Carter. This is the first year I have seriously considered otherwise. I strongly support Al Franken, here in Minnesota this year, not so much for himself, but because I find Norm Coleman so odious, much as I do Minnesota's Governor, Tim Pawlenty. For you to assume I am simply a Republican in disguise is to assume much. Were you to have simply asked, along with "iverglas", I would have gladly informed you of my political inclinations. Since you did not, I can only conclude that your ignorance is willful.

In my experience politicking in this blue, yet outdoor-oriented, state, I have most certainly come to know many pro-RKBA Democrats. I am proud to still consider myself among them.

[apocalypsehow]

48. "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest,..." n/t.

[benEzra]

46. You know...

"All the Dems in my very limited circle hate guns" --> "All true Dems hate guns" --> "Gun supporters are not true Dems" is a logical fallacy in the extreme. You should get out of your circle a bit more.

And while you're at it, read the DU posting rules.

[apocalypsehow]

49. You know...

My lying eyes must be at it again. Cause I see this post is directed at one of mine, yet it obviously replies to another one. In another thread. Possibly on another forum. In a galaxy far, far away...

You said: "And while you're at it, read the DU posting rules"

Okie Dokie. Just as soon as you enlist your buddy "chunks" above to join me for a joint reading. Perhaps we could share notes.

Oh, wait....

[iverglas]

51. yikes

And there was me, not getting the Yorick ref and replying to a ghost. Or was it a ghoul?

Little friendly competition for notches on the keyboard (it being mightier than the firearm, it seems) interest you?

[apocalypsehow]

37. Both, I'd think.

You said: "Of the two, who do we trust to protect our Second Amendment rights?"

Neither Senator Clinton nor Senator Obama have gone on record proposing to dismantle the National Guards of the fifty states, so I'm pretty durn sure your "Second Amendment rights" are quite safe in both cases.

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Both- and *not* because they support the Second Amendment

I don't think they do, at heart.

Its because neither of them are stupid.

The Congressional and state races this year
and in 2010 are mostly going to be close,
and either one of them will, of course, dissemble
as needed to keep the undecideds voting (D)

Webb, Schweitzer, Dean, Richardson,Tester, et cetera
will tell them to put a cork in it if they start getting
religion from gun controllers.

[Uben]

40. I'd say Clinton

Just my opinion, but I think she is more likely to support the right to bear arms than Obama

[slackmaster]

42. They're both wrong on that issue

I wish our party leadership would work toward finding qualified Presidential candidates who actually support the party platform.

[Major Hogwash]

52. Obama.

Turns out Hillary has too many fantasies about "ducking sniper fire" lately to be a gunowner's friend.

[geek_sabre]

53. Obama still seems convinced

That the 2nd amendment is all about hunting. Listen to his "shame on her" speech from yesterday. I wish someone would confront him on this before the GE.

[Major Hogwash]

54. Hillary's story about "ducking sniper fire" was an outright lie.

You can complain about Obama's speech all you want, he didn't lie.

Don't worry though, this forum is for Democrats, and once Obama wraps up the nomination, I don't expect we'll see any more Democrat bashing in this forum.

By the by, welcome to DU.

[geek_sabre]

55. I don't think Hillary is right on this issue either. nt

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[facepalm]

58. who do we trust to protect our Second Amendment rights?

Bill Richardson. Oops, too late.

Obama has a 20 year history of trying to destroy gun rights. On the other hand, he voted for the no-confiscation law last year. He still hasn't figured out that the 2nd amendment isn't about hunting.

Clinton's history goes back about 15 years. She has been acting more conciliatory lately but I don't think anyone is convinced.

McCain screwed gun owners somewhat with McCain-Feingold (worst law evar) and appears to have been briefly suckered by the gun show loophole crowd. On the other hand, he voted against the original AWB, back when gun control was seen as a risk-free way to score political points.

With Heller in the works, this is a really crappy set of candidates for us to run with. Just being honest.

[Firethorn]

60. Some references...

McCain's 2nd Amendment issue page

Going solely on that, I'd give him around a 90% on gun rights. Personnally, I think that a requirement to provide a trigger lock with every gun sold is wasteful. Trigger locks might be relatively cheap, but they're also relatively ineffective. Some designs actually make an accidental discharge more likely. I own 2 gun safes and don't use trigger locks, but ultimately not a big deal. I imagine a quick way around it would be to include the mandatory gun lock with each purchase, but offer a $2 or so 'buyback' program. Dealer hands me a lock with my purchase, I hand it back for the $2. The other issue is the 'gun show loophole', which his site actually shows an understanding of the issue, and I can see the point that offering a NICS check even to private party sales at a gun show isn't really a bad idea. Still, the number of guns obtained through gun shows used in crimes is pretty miniscule, so why the bother?

Obama/Clinton? Essentially identical/Within the margin of error. And 90% 'control'. They don't mention gun rights/2nd on their websites that I can find, but going by voting records a general 'never met a gun control bill they didn't like' comes to mind.
One rating site I found. It's a bit old, listing all the early candidates. Still Barak's record is 'Almost perfect anti-Second Amendment record' and Hillary is 'Record of anti-Second Amendment leadership'.

According to that, Barak Obama leads by a hair.

[Politically Homeless]

61. Neither...

So who's our friend between Clinton and Obama?

Of the two, who do we trust to protect our Second Amendment rights?

Neither.

Clinton and Obama arguing over which one deserves the votes of gun owners is almost as absurd as Jesse Helms and Fred Phelps arguing over which one deserves the votes of gay people.

If you Democrats had any sense, you'd have nominated Bill Richardson. You can't win without the support of blue collar white men and you can't win that demographic with a candidate who's a gun grabber, period.

Now that Richardson is out of the running, I'll be holding my nose and voting for McCain, as will every other blue collar white male gun owner I know. He isn't perfect on gun rights, but he's a heck of a lot better than Obama or Clinton.

[iverglas]

62. "I'll be holding my nose and voting for McCain"

Ah, you pitched a fit and nobody noticed.

Oh well, better luck this time.