Teen Shot, Killed In Hunting Accident (Grandpa shot him with AK-47)

[Sequoia]

(An Assult rifle on a hunting trip!!!???? Idiot..why didn't you put the safety on!)

LAVACA COUNTY, Texas -- A 14-year-old boy was accidentally shot and killed in a hunting accident by his grandfather, investigators said.

According to the Lavaca County Sheriff's Office, Taylor Michalec's grandfather said he was walking behind the teen when the trigger on his AK-47 assault rifle snagged a branch and discharged, striking the teen in the back.

The shooting happened Wednesday afternoon near County Road 290, about five miles west of Moulton, Texas, about 100 miles east of San Antonio.

Both his father and grandfather tried to administer CPR, but when EMS responders arrived, the teen was pronounced dead. Michalec had just completed his freshman year at Steele High School, where he was a member of the football team

http://www.ksat.com/news/16589436/detail.html

[izquierdista]

1. Guns don't kill people

Tree branches with guns kill people. :crazy:

[Squatch]

156. I'm surprised at the number of people defending the AK-47 as an appropriate hunting weapon

It is horribly suited to that task as the weapon is cumbersome, very unbalanced, and inaccurate beyond 100m.

Similarly, the ammunition itself is not well suited to hunting big or medium game, and is definitely not appropriate for varmints (coyotes, etc). The possibility of merely wounding an animal with an AK-47 is way too high.

[slackmaster]

170. I'm not a hunter, but wouldn't appropriateness of the rifle depend on what you were hunting?

For hogs in a brushy area, or coyotes, why not?

Similarly, the ammunition itself is not well suited to hunting big or medium game, and is definitely not appropriate for varmints (coyotes, etc). The possibility of merely wounding an animal with an AK-47 is way too high.

I own two rifles in that caliber (neither being an AK), so I am somewhat familiar with the kinds of loads that are available commercially. Soft-point rounds intended for hunting are manufactured commercially.

ETA I believe 30-30 Winchester is the minimum required for hunting deer in California. 7.62 x 39 ballistics are very similar.

[Squatch]

179. At normal Coyote-shooting ranges of around 200 yds

The 7.62x39, being fired from a weapon with a 100-yd zero has dropped nearly 10 inches and only delivers around 1,000 foot-pounds of energy.

Compare that with an appropriate varmint caliber like the 25-06, and the bullet is only dropping about 2 inches but still delivers over 2,000 foot-pounds of energy.

"For (any animal) in a brushy area..."

C'mon, Slack...you should know that you DO NOT pull the trigger unless you have an absolutely clear path for the bullet to take. The notion of the "brush-busting" bullet is horribly irresponsible as a bullet's flight path cannot be predicted after encountering any intermediate obstacles, including leaves, brush, etc. The likelihood of merely wounding an animal for firing through brush is way too high for any responsible hunter or marksman.

[krispos42]

189. Obviously, proper sighting-in is required

A 7.62x39mm rifle like an AK or SKS, if sighted in at 200 yards will stay within 4 inches of the scope line-of-sight out to about 240 yards.

Check it out:
http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx

Bullet diameter: .308
Bullet weight: 123gr
Muzzle velocity: 2,365
Ballistic coefficiant: .265
(info from Winchester)


This calculator will not only work out the trajectory as defined, but will also give you the "point blank" information. On this calculator, the "point blank" range is defined as the maximum range that the bullet does fly more than 3 inches above or below the scope's line of sight. This corrosponds to the approximate size of the vitals of a deer, about 6". This means that you just put the crosshairs on the vitals and shoot. No holdover needed to compensate for bullet drop.

The point blank range of the 7.62x39mm is zero at 190 yards with a maximum range of 222 yards.

The very similar .30-30's point blank range is a 186-yard zero with a maximum range of 217 yards.

However, a .25-06 with a good, slick 85-grain varmit bullet shoots considerably flatter. It has as a 284-yard zero and a maximum of 331 yards. Switch to a heavier 115-grain bullet for deer and you get a 255-yard zero and a 300-yard maximum.

The issue with shooting the 7.62x39mm as a varmit caliber is accuracy. Coyotes are considerably smaller than deer and the AK is not known for accuracy. However, if you're hunting in close cover, where all of your shots are going to be within a 100 yards or so, then an AK is perfectly acceptable.

[Endangered Specie]

235. How about 5.45x39 in a soft point load?

AK74 fires that, from what I understand it is the soviet attempt to make a .223

[benEzra]

239. Accurate and flat shooting, but I'm not sure if good softpoints are available.

A better caliber choice for hunting coyotes with an AK might be .223 Remington (they do make .223 AK's). If I had the money, I'd have a .223 SAR-3 or similar in the safe next to the SAR-1, methinks.

[benEzra]

238. My SAR-1 is sighted in at 50 yards, giving it a far zero around 190-200.

A tall optic helps somewhat. The Kobra is about perfect for this rifle, IMO.

SAR-1, 7.62x39mm, Kobra optic
Sight height: 3.8 inches to center of lens
122gr JHP @ 2350 ft/sec
Ballistic coefficient: 0.257


Range..............(+ above, - below)

0....................-3.8 inches
25...................-1.7 inches
50....................0.0 inches
75...................+1.2 inches
100..................+2.0 inches
125..................+2.2 inches (apex)
150..................+1.8 inches
175..................+0.8 inches
200..................-0.8 inches
225..................-3.3 inches

No, it's not nearly as flat as a .25-06, but for deer or hogs inside 125 yards, it's not a bad rifle if you shoot it well.

The AR-15 would be a far better coyote rifle beyond 200 yards than an AK would, but an AR doesn't have enough bullet mass or frontal area for deer and hogs.

[galledgoblin]

an AK-47 has only two real life applications

war, and keeping the king of England out of your house.

[Squatch]

209. One of my favorite Simpson's episodes.

"S'cuse me, where can I find your deadliest guns?"

"Aisle 6, next to the sympathy cards."

:rofl:

[galledgoblin]

210. Homer using the handgun as a "tool"

I think that beautifully sums up that arguement- guns are for killing, nothing more, nothing less, and we should never pretend otherwise.

[benEzra]

240. Mine must be defective, then...

because it's a great target rifle, and I shoot USPSA with it.

A Remington M700 in .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO is a weapon of war. It's also a fine deer gun.

[Endangered Specie]

228. I disagree...

an ak handles well enough, is accurate to 200m to 300m (accuracy depends far more on skill than gun), and with the right soft points, quite lethal.

[rdenney]

250. I've said it before, again and again: STAY the HELL away from Texas!.....

I don't know if its the water or the DNA but that is one f*****d up state.

There should be a warning sign when entering Texas: "Enter at your own risk, bullets, beer and pickup trucks flying everywhere. The state will not be held accountable for ANYTHING at all that happens here."

[sir pball]

261. 7.62x39 is roughly ballistically equivalent to 30-30..

And I wouldn't, couldn't, argue with that most classic of cartridges for taking deer-sized game at <100m. A decent AK/SKS isn't really any less accurate than a Model 1894 either, at least not at the ranges one should be using either of those rifles for. I'd rate them both highly as "brush guns", for walking through dense woods where the longest shot would be 30 yards at the outside.

Of course for those 150+ yard headshots across an open field, give me my AR-10T..

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

202. Funny you should mention trees killing people...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3444959

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Imagine the horror of your father negligently killing your son and with

a weapon that is both illegal and has no part whatsoever in legitimate hunting.

[ingac70]

4. AK-47s are not illegal. n/t

[SergeyDovlatov]

11. Only if he got one before 1968, AK-47 is fully automatic weapon and thus banned

Unless, of course it was a semi-auto mod version which is legal.

[ingac70]

13. ....

No shit?
:sarcasm:

[DevonRex]

103. Probably an SKS, the cheap semi-auto Chinese version of an AK.

[ManiacJoe]

123. An SKS is not a type of AK. (n/t)

[ingac70]

127. OMG.

:eyes:

http://www.hk94.com/sks-rifle.php

[DevonRex]

177. The SKS is the basis of the AK series. Says so in your link. nt

[ingac70]

178. ....

where in my link did it say it was a cheap chinese copy of an AK?

[DevonRex]

180. The SKS preceded the AK. The Norinco SKS is a relatively cheap

weapon that many hunters use. In the 90s, they were all over the place here in the US and maybe they still are. The AK used many of the features of the SKS.

All I was saying is that people who don't know much about weapons often mistake an SKS for an auto AK-47, which is an NFA weapon. But then most people don't know the difference between full auto and semi-auto.

[ingac70]

213. ...

Perhaps you are thinking of Norinco's MAK-90?

[benEzra]

181. In the same sense that the original Xerox GUI was the basis of the Apple Macintosh.

The former influenced the look and feel of the latter, but they are completely separate entities and the former is NOT a derivative of the latter. The only things the SKS and AK share are the cartridge, sight design, gas tube latch, and country of origin.

The SKS is a fixed-magazine, milled-receiver semiautomatic that uses a short-stroke gas piston and a tilting bolt. The military AKM is a detachable-magazine, stamped-receiver, selective-fire carbine that uses a long-stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt. The civilian AK is a semiautomatic derivative of the AKM.

[DevonRex]

184. I agree, obviously. But I have found that the name AK is too often

used in a generic sense rather than a specific one, to cover several different weapons. And in my former line of work I saw many more SKSs out there than AKs, probably because the SKS is so inexpensive. And you'd be surprised at how many law enforcement folks use AK in the generic sense, too. And don't get me started on how many people think that assault rifles are full auto. Oh well, that's a discussion for another day.

[benEzra]

185. The SKS is indeed popular...

By some accounts, it is the single most common centerfire rifle in U.S. homes nationwide, with something like 7 million sold and counting (according to the Georgia Arms Collectors Association, anyway).

A lot of people can't tell the difference. Of course, some reporters can't tell the difference between an AR-15 and a civilian AK either...



...from a goofy AP hit piece on civilian AK's, by a writer that apparently did most of his "research" Googling Brady Campaign press releases.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=164672

[michreject]

198. This is no accident

But I have found that the name AK is too often
used in a generic sense rather than a specific one

It's a MSM ploy used in order to scare the sheep.

[AtheistCrusader]

246. Assault Rifles are by definition

Select Fire Rifles of intermediate power between a Sub Machine Gun and a Battle Rifle. Meaning, they can fire fully automatic, or burst fire.

That is the definition. Period.

[rdenney]

253. Keep holding on to that thought, while a dead 14 year old boy rots in the cold, hard ground.

I mean the fact the the gun was XXXXXX makes a HUGE difference, correct?

[AtheistCrusader]

263. That's exactly my point.

ANY rifle carried in this careless and negligent manner would have killed that boy. Slapping an incorrect label on it helps nothing.

[benEzra]

278. Pre-CISE-ly.

I mean the fact the the gun was XXXXXX makes a HUGE difference, correct?

Pre-CISE-ly. That is exactly the problem with the "assault weapon" fraud. There is no difference except looks between a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle and a civilian AK lookalike.

BTW, the tragedy discussed in this thread would have had exactly the same outcome if the firearm in question were a 1750's flintlock. A rifle negligently pointed at someone's back and negligently fired is going to hurt someone.

[Richard Steele]

249. I understood what you meant, instinctively, when I saw your first post above.

I too have noticed how common it is for news stories
to "mistakenly" refer to SKS rifles as AK-47s.

And I put the word "mistakenly" in quotes because I've seen
it often enough that I just can't believe it's a mistake anymore.

Seems like almost half the time a media report of an "AK47"
actually includes a PICTURE of the rifle, it's an SKS.

And that's a mistake that might happen once in a blue moon,
but not more. They just don't look that similar.

And it happens for a reason- "AK47" is a big bad scary word
in the mind of the average US citizen. It grabs attention in
ways that make it more likely for a one-column LOCAL story
to get picked up by the wire services and become a NATIONAL
tempest-in-a-teapot on the Network Nuze.

[old mark]

281. The link is incorrect.

The SKS was developed by the Soviets as a counter to the German Sturm Gewehr 44, literally the first "Assault Rifle".
The SKS was given to a few Russian infantry units in 1945 for battle field testing. It was designed based on a much larger anti-tank (armor piercing) rifle, and was develop-ed by a man named Simonov (The last S in SKS) (It stands for the Russian for Semiautomatic Carbine Simonov)
It holds 10 shots, has a fixed magazine, fires once for every trigger pull.

AK was designed by Kalashnikov, did not reach the testr stage till after WWII, in 1947 (Hence, the "47" part) AK stands for the Russian Avtomat Kalashnikov, the Automatic Kalashnikov) It can be fired in full automatic mode, like a machinegun, hold the trigger and it will fire repeatedly and rapidly till the trigger is released. The SKS can not do this, was not designed to do this.

AK's imported and sold in the US are NOT real AK's-they are NOT capable of full auto fire, they are meant for semi auto fire/autoloading fire only, and CAN't be readily changed to full auto use.

I have owned 4 different AK's and about 8 SKS's-I have 2 Chinese SKS's right now. They are VERY rugged, reliable rifles, and, doar I say it, great fun to shoot.

mark

[AtheistCrusader]

241. You should be more careful before you declare anything about a firearm as fact

if you are not familiar with the firearm.

The AK-47 was imported to the US in semi-auto form. They are made here in semi-auto form. You can buy an actual AK-47, in semi-auto only form. There are probably thousands of them sold every day, if you consider private transfers.

HOWEVER, even if we are talking about the limited number of select-fire (fully automatic) AK-47's imported to the US, (not 100% sure there were any, but there may have been) they are in fact legal for ownership in certain states. You have to pay $200 to the BATFE for the correct tax stamp to own it, you have to submit to background checks by the BATFE, and they can also come knocking whenever, to make sure you still own it.

On top of that, the SKS and the AK-47 are completely different rifles. Not only is the appearance different, the basic operation of the weapon is completely different. There are different types and sub-models of AK-47, but they are all 'AK-47's' for all intents and purposes.

For instance, the SKS has no select fire capability. It does not fire fully auto, in any model or variant.
The rifle uses a tilting block and gas piston to cycle the action. the AK-47 is a rotating bolt block. This is not an evolutionary change from the SKS, it's a different form entirely. It owes it's origins more to the M1, and the german '44 than anything resembling the SKS. Some features may have been incorporated from the SKS in the creation of the AK-47, but they are not really similar. The SKS doesn't even have a removable magazine, to add that feature pretty well screws up the reliability of the weapon.

[old mark]

280. SKS/AK

The SKS is a semiauto carbine developed in the late WWII (1944) by a Russian named Simonev. It has a fixed magazine and holds 10 rounds. It can ONLY fire 1 shot for every trigger pull.
The AK-47 was developed 1947 (After WWII) by a Russian named Kalasnikov. The actual military AK is, like the US M-16, capable of full automatic fire (it will continue to shoot as long as the trigger is held down and there is still ammo in the magazine or semi-auto fire (one shot per trigger pull). Mode of fire is selected by the shooter using a selection lever on the right side of the rifle. It has a removable magazine of usually 30 rounds.

Please understand that the AK's sold in the US are NOT CAPABLE of full aotimatic fire, but semi auto only. Guns capable of full automatic fire have been regulated (require a special license and high Federal tax) by the Federal government since the 1930's. There has not been ANY full auto AK sold in the US available to the general public.

The SKS and the AK have absolutely nothing in common, except that they are usually chambered for the same cartridge.
The Norinco (Chinese) SKS rifles are actually very good quality -I own 2 at this time- and they were rebuilt in China from rifles used by the Chinese Army (PLA) and various police and militia groups. They do have a collector following.They were inexpensive at one time, but their import was banned and prices immediately rose. They sell for around $300 depending on condition.

ALL AK's available to the general public in the US are specially made to be semi anto only, and were never military rifles, although some use surplus military parts. Weapons that were made to fire full automatic and converted to semi automatic are very difficult to import, and there are very few around today. They AK's sold in the US LOOK like battle weapons, but they are not really-they are imitations made for the US market. They are actually usable hunting rifles in certain circumstances and in many states are used for hunting deer and similar size game.They are usually fitted with 5 shot magazines for hunting.

Most of whet you hear about "assault rifles" being heavily used in crime is a complete fiction. The "anti gun" cult has continually used lies and mis-information to make its point and bring in more money for its organizations. They are not good people.

FWIW, the "trigger being set off by a branch" is a pretty common hunting accident with ANY type of firearm that is carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off. It is very stupid and 100% preventable, and it is the fault of the person carrying the gun, not of the gun.
It is difficult to legislate against people being stupid.
mark

[Richard Steele]

19. Your factual errors make you appear foolish. Your PLACEMENT of them makes you appear despicable.

The gun is not "illegal", and makes a fine & useful hunting rifle.

The 7.62x39 cartridge it fires is, ballistically, almost identical
to the old 30-30 Winchester round which was introduced in 1894 and
is generally considered to be the most popular deer-hunting caliber
in history.


Shame on you for exploiting this tragedy as an opportunity to
spout tired & FALSE propaganda for your personal agenda.

Shame.

[ingac70]

23. Wish I could rec your post. n/t

[gullwing300]

54. Woah! Hang on a minute here...you support Obama AND gun rights?

Isn't that like some major rift in the Universe's space-time continuum? Oh gawd, it's the end of the world


as we know it.


:rofl: :D

[slackmaster]

64. I voted for Obama and support gun rights too

Get a grip. Not everyone who supports gun rights is a single-issue right-winger.

[gullwing300]

78. I am on your side here. Please check out what I've been saying!

:D

[Richard Steele]

82. I've checked out what you're saying, and it looks like Grade-A trollish asshattery to me.

nm

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carnea]

130. Im also support Obama nad gun rights. NT

[slackmaster]

63. First of all, there was nothing illegal about the rifle

Second, the horror would be the same regardless of the type of weapon a person mishandled.

[Art_from_Ark]

141. How do you know?

"Federal legislation signed by President Clinton in 1994 subsequently outlawed the AK-47 among 19 makes of what the law describes as "assault-style" weapons. The legislation limited the magazine capacity of such guns to 10 shots, but exempted 650 named firearms and all guns legally owned when the law took effect."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/awards/gun29.html

[Pavulon]

143. 9 less than needed to kill a person dead

you cant ban assholes with ipods behind the wheel killing people or morons who fail to secure a weapon.

both have manuals that say not to do what fuckstick did.

if you get hit by a suv going 80mph the difference between the spinner rims and stock ones do not make you less dead.

joke law, stupid press, he probably had an sks

[petronius]

149. The federal AWB expired in 2004

Unless this gun was fully automatic, it's highly likely that it was a legal firearm (and even a full-auto version could be legal, depending on other factors)...

[slackmaster]

162. The 1994 "ban" expired in 2004

And it didn't make ones that were already owned illegal to have. At no point during the "ban" was it illegal to sell an AK-pattern semiautomatic rifle that lacked the specific features mentioned in the code.

How do you know?

As a condition of my Federal Firearms License, I am obligated to keep up with things like that. I daresay I know a whole lot more about US and state gun laws than most people do, including reporters and (particularly ironic in this case) police officers.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA061308.2B.shootingaccident.EN.36e0363.html

[benEzra]

172. The 1994 Feinstein law did NOT ban civilian AK's, and did not affect AK magazine capacities.

It only prohibited the marketing of non-automatic civilian AK's (such as my 2002 model SAR-1) under the banned name "AK-47", which would have been imprecise usage anyway. Civilian AK's were just as legal to manufacture, sell, and possess in 1996 or 1999 or 2002 as they are now; they just had to have smooth muzzles (or pin-on brakes instead of screw-on brakes) and no bayonet lugs. The Feinstein law easily tripled civilian AK sales 1994-2004.

Here is my 2002 model civilian AK, manufactured, imported, and sold during the Feinstein law:



Here's how it differs from a pre-'94 or post-'04 civilian AK:



If you think civilian AK's have ever been banned in the USA, you've been badly spun. And yes, those are ban-exempt magazines purchased during the Feinstein law as well.

[rdenney]

251. The Large magazine and the pistol grip would get you a nice term in jail up here...

as I always say, the laws have loopholes that could have been easily closed and you would be writing us from a prison cell right now...err....I mean if they let you use an internet capable computer, that is.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

275. Up where?

[krispos42]

190. Which expired four years ago, almost

And since the definition of "assault weapon" was based on the combinations of cosmetic features of rifles, shotguns, and pistols, manufacturers and importers of guns simply removed the offending combinations.

DUer benEzra has an AK-47-pattern rifle he bought new and legally in 2003 (during the ban) that was modified to remove enough cosmetic features. He'll probably post a pic of it if he hasn't already.

This is a good read, especially the part about what defines an "assault weapon" characteristics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

(on edit: if I had scrolled down more, I would have seen that he did indeed post the picture...)

[michreject]

197. That law didn't ban anything

It only banned certain features on some models.

[krispos42]

186. It's not a military-issue AK-47

It is a civilian-legal, semi-automatic-only rifled patterened after the original AK-47. The firing mechanism has been reworked so that there is no automatic-fire feature nor can it be readily converted to become so.

[rdenney]

252. Doesn't make any sense does it? Worse, he will walk on this being as it's in Texas: land of the gun.

[ingac70]

3. Why was it...

pointing towards the kid's back while they were walking along???

:(

[TomInTib]

12. My first thought, as well.

Grandpa oughta be charged with negligent homicide.

[ingac70]

15. At the very least. n/t

[tkmorris]

31. Exactly my question

I knew better than that at 8 years old, you NEVER walk with your rifle in that position.

[slackmaster]

65. I've never been hunting but it seems clear that only the person who is armed should be on point

:argh:

[Rage for Order]

110. I would guess...

It probably wasn't pointed at the kids back, but it got caught on the tree branch and pulled the barrel of the gun to where it was pointed at the kids back when it went off. Very sad, regardless of the circumstances. :(

[ingac70]

125. ...

the old man claims he was walking along and a branch set off the trigger. How could it pull the trigger and pull the barrel down (or up) at once?

[krispos42]

191. Might have torqued the gun to the right

Lesson: keep the damn safety on!

[AtheistCrusader]

242. This is the real tragedy.

There is no excuse for directing the barrel of the weapon toward another human being. Same can be said for walking along (IN THE BRUSH!?) with the safety off, etc.

This was a very easily preventable tragedy.

[rdenney]

257. Because we dont test gun owners, like we do car drivers. Then again some people are numbskull's too.

Most of them being gun-packers.

It must be the lead that gets them, one way or another. :-)

[Recursion]

268. Yeah, testing drivers...

...although I'm not against it, remember that even with testing drivers there are an order of magnitude more car deaths than gun deaths, and a given car is about half again as likely to kill someone as a given gun.

[Demobrat]

5. Well at least this time the gun nuts can't argue

that if the victim had also had a gun he would still be alive.

[ingac70]

6. and eyes in the back of his head. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

7. There are hunters using AKs and AR-15s for hunting

Nothing wrong with it. This accident could've happened with any rifle.

Yeah safety should've been on and the barrel should never be in a direction of any person.

[AtheistCrusader]

243. Indeed

In some states, you cannot legally hunt deer with an AR-15 because the .223 round won't reliably kill a deer. In those same states, to the best of my knowledge, the AK-47 is perfectly fine for hunting deer.

[boobooday]

8. WTF are they hunting that requires an AK-47?

Sasquatch?

[ingac70]

16. Have you ever fired an AK-47?

[gullwing300]

18. There is no chance your correspondent has ever -seen- one, let alone fired one.

...

[ingac70]

21. If I don't know something about a subject...

I keep my mouth shut for fear of embarrassment. I guess I could never figure out why others don't show themselves the same respect.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spanone]

71. then why do you enchant us with your presence? you should go where you can find like minds

elsewhere

[gullwing300]

74. I am so pleased you are enchanted!

But in case you didn't notice, a full fifty percent (50%) of DUers own guns and completely support the clear meaning of the Second Amendment of the Constitution. There are, of course, as in any large group, a few who hate our Constitution...and some of them are even Democrats. No, I cannot explain that phenomenon.

[Bluebear]

39. Why don't you take the time to explain the subject then?

:hi:

[ingac70]

41. No sense in bothering...

when they already have visions in their head of a weapon so powerful that it can only be used on Sasquatch.

[Bluebear]

43. I hear AK-47 and I think "urban warfare"

Honestly.

I would never have imagined that an AK-47 would be a hunting gun either, perhaps because of the baggage that the name holds. It is helpful to know your point of view too, thanks!

[benEzra]

119. Civilian AK's are non-automatic, unlike restricted military AK's. (n/t)

[krispos42]

192. There is no reason they can't be, actually

The ammunition it fires is a fair bit less powerful than your average bolt-action rifle, though. Guns like the AK-47 fire ammunition that we developed as a result of lessons learned during World War Two.

In WW2 the infantry has basically two kinds of rifles: battle rifles like the Garand, the Mauser, the Lee-Enfield, and the Mosin-Nagat that fired powerful ammuniton, and submachine guns like the Tommy gun, Sten gun, and MP40 that fired pistol ammunition. The full-power battle rifles excelled at long-range precision shooting but were too powerful for close range automatic fire. The submachine guns excelled at close-range automatic fire but the cartridge was to weak and inaccurate for long-range shooting.

So cartridges like the 7.62x39mm (fired by the AK-47 and SKS rifles) and 5.56x45mm (fired by the M-16) were developed to have light enough recoil for effective close-range automatic fire but powerful enough to be lethal at longer ranges, and the guns that shot them had both full-automatic and semi-automatic settings on them.

This was the birth of the "assault rifle", a rifle that could be used for both close-range fully-automatic encounters and long-range precision shooting engagements.

Because hunting places a premium on humane kills and accurate shooting, hunters have generally stuck with cartridges similar to those used by full-power battle rifles, in rifles more accurate than general military guns. However the 7.62x39mm cartridge is perfectly acceptable for deer-sized game out to about 200 yards, and the 5.56mm is very popular among people that hunt varmits and can be used effectively out to 400 yards.

The AK-47 was originally a combat arm designed for maximum ease of use by conscripted troops. It is very reliable, rugged, and simple, but not known for accuracy. But as long as you stay within the limits of the cartridge (about 200 yards for deer) and have a scope or decent iron sights on it, the rifle is accurate enough for effective and humane use.

State hunting laws generally limit magazine capacities to 5 rounds and mandate expanding bullets as well, depending on the type of game hunted. If this person was hunting deer, it is likely that the stereotypical "bannana" clip was sitting at home and a small magazine inserted instead.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

215. AK's that hunters use aren't fully automatic.

Unless, of course, they go through the very long and expensive process of getting tax stamps and whatnot.

[Endangered Specie]

229. Heres an image of what a hunting legal ak might look like

[gullwing300]

48. Not to mention the fact they depend on an imaginary critter to defend their opinions.

If that ain't crazy, nothing is.

[Bluebear]

34. How does that answer their question?

[ingac70]

40. ....

you can hunt for more than just "Sasquatch" with one.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/913833375/Non-Guns/Magazines-Clips/Rifle-Magazines/AK-Family/AK_47_hunting_mags_5rd.htm

[boobooday]

207. Geez, I had no idea my ignorance of guns would be so offensive to so many!

It really seemed to piss some of these people off.

[WWFZD]

259. It's not at all surprising.

It's not so much their being pissed at you. You merely asked a question that was obviously influenced by the propaganda put forth by pandering, ineffectual politicians and the agenda driven misnamed "news" media. Like the person who earlier used the phrase "illegal weapon". Even still, that doesn't piss people off so much, it's when the lies and hype are used to write legislation that attempts to nibble away at a civil right.
It's like a gearhead who enjoys cosmetically modifying small foreign cars listening to some chauffeured legislator who doesn't know a motor from a transmission rail against "death machines" that are only used to drag race and run down children in the street.
If I heard all the hype about a subject of which I was ignorant I'd probably do it too, and I have until I became informed.

[old mark]

287. No, not you personally

many peple's entire knowledge of guns, shooting, hinting, etc, comes from fiction-TV and, books,movies, much of which is written by people with limited knowledge of guns themselves, and/or an axe to grind. I have seen so much anti-gun material that was not only ignorant but completely incorrenc, and in many cases outright lies.
Yet these people feel justified in presenting distortions and lies to "make their point".
And, of course, feel very free to vilify the opposition.

And attempt to make laws based on lies that will affect us all.

mark

[SergeyDovlatov]

20. Regular dear / bear hunting rifles with 30-30 or bigger cartridges are more powerful and precise

[RamboLiberal]

26. Probably hunting squirrel & rabbit

That's the only open season now according to Texas website.

[gullwing300]

35. There isn't a 'season' for varmints. In Texas or mostly elsewhere.

Generally squirrels and rabbits (both of which, by the way are quite tasty) are considered varmints in most places...

I do not believe it's illegal to shoot
snakes
coyotes
turtles
crows
badgers
porcupines
armadillos
skunks
jackrabbits
...and other species

most anywhere in the USA. I don't like it but I don't make the laws.

[RamboLiberal]

51. Is it possible they were hunting hogs?

I don't know what Texas law is on them. Or are some "pest" species legal on private land?

[gullwing300]

56. It might be. AFAIK wild hogs aren't covered by hunting season laws in Texas

but I don't know that for sure. I live in far north Texas...across the Red river. :D

[sendero]

62. I'm 99.9% sure..

... its legal to shoot feral hogs any time. They are a major nuisance, and becoming moreso.

[gullwing300]

75. And to the horror of many activists, deer are becoming major nuisances too.

They are, of course, equally tasty. :D

[hootinholler]

157. Squirrels and rabbits are generaly considered small game.

Coyotes are game in Md as well, along with fox.

We had a boy near here charged with unlicensed hunting for shooting squirrels with a BB gun.

-Hoot

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

211. You left sasquach off that list

[Ghost in the Machine]

44. I was wondering what kind of season was open in June... other than year-round varmit season

What a sad tragedy for the family.

[RebelOne]

154. The only seasons open in June are for alligator, rabbits and squirrels.

[Monk06]

67. An unskilled hunter who who is unaware that the AK is grossly innacurate beyond 400 yds.

[Dogtown]

163. 400 yards

That's quite a range, actually.

I support gun rights. I do not hunt, and I find sport-hunting repugnant. I usually don't address the concept of meat hunting or "subsistence hunting" as it is often called, because I feel it is often an excuse for recreational killing. That topic is a quagmire I refuse to wallow in.



Facts are facts, though, and media-sensationalism aside, The SKS (firing the same cartridge and often cosmetically altered to resemble the AK) and the AK47 are both well designed guns and do very well at what they are designed for. If it will kill a man (and they kill the fuck out of people) it will kill a deer and lots of game animals.

400 yards is a long range for hunting game in wilderness areas. With the exception of mountain-to-mountain scoped hunting, or desert hunting, I would think that's beyond the practical range of most hunters.

I wouldn't consider a shot at that range with any weapon against a game target, and I'm a better than average shooter. Too much chance of a wounding shot and very difficult to run down your prey for the mercy shot.

Your argument lacks merit. Viewed dispassionately, the street-legal variants of the design are accessible and adequate hunting arms.

Turning this particular tragedy against the weapon is pure sophistry. The same accident could have as easily been fatal with a single shot .22.


My candidate was and is Obama. There really are other issues besides firearms, and not all gun owners are cowboy wannabees.

[Monk06]

227. My understanding is older Czech and modern Russian varients are quite accruate

up to and beyond 400 yds. Mass produced Chinese
copies are little better than spray and pray from
what I read.

Historically the 400 yd figure was not a realistic
expectation given the AK's primitive sights which
where designed for quick short range aim. The 400
yd limit was meant to make it comparable to 30-30
(I believe that's the caliber)of military long arms
from WWI to WWII the Garands, Lee Enfields etc.

[benEzra]

173. There aren't any 400-yard sightlines when hunting hogs (or deer) in thick woods.

7.62x39mm, like .30-30, lacks the power to humanely kill a deer-sized animal beyond 150 yards or so, according to most rules of thumb. But as a woods gun for shots inside 125 yards, it's an entirely suitable hunting rifle.

[benEzra]

87. Deer. An AK is similar to a .30-30 Winchester and about half as powerful as a .30-06.

WTF are they hunting that requires an AK-47?

Sasquatch?

Deer or boar, probably. An AK is similar to a .30-30 Winchester and about half as powerful as a .30-06. They aren't powerful enough for elk, but make a decent short-range (under 125 yards) deer and boar gun, as long as the deer aren't too big.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

Rifle Caliber..........................Bullet Weight and Velocity

7.62x39mm (AK).........................122 grain bullet at 2350 ft/sec
7.62x39mm (AK).........................154 grain bullet at 2000 ft/sec
.30-30 Winchester (1800's vintage).....150 grain bullet at 2390 ft/sec
.243 Winchester (deer).................100 grain bullet at 2960 ft/sec
.270 Winchester (deer).................130 grain bullet at 3060 ft/sec
.270 Winchester (deer).................150 grain bullet at 2850 ft/sec
.308 Winchester (deer/target rifle)....150 grain bullet at 2820 ft/sec
.308 Winchester (deer/target rifle)....180 grain bullet at 2620 ft/sec
.30-06 (deer/elk)......................125 grain bullet at 3140 ft/sec
.30-06 (deer/elk)......................180 grain bullet at 2700 ft/sec
.30-06 (deer/elk).......................55 grain bullet at 4080 ft/sec
.300 Remington Ultra Mag (deer/elk)....150 grain bullet at 3450 ft/sec
.300 Remington Ultra Mag (deer/elk)....180 grain bullet at 3250 ft/sec


Caliber/Weapon................................ Kinetic Energy
AR-15 (.223 Remington/5.56x45mm)................1,275 ft-lb
Civilian AK (7.62x39mm).........................1,495 ft-lb
.30-30 Winchester (1800's vintage deer rifle)...1,902 ft-lb
.243 Winchester.................................1,946 ft-lb
.308 Winchester.................................2,670 ft-lb
.270 Winchester.................................2,702 ft-lb
.50 Beowulf.....................................2,878 ft-lb
.30-06 (most popular deer rifle)................2,900 ft-lb
.444 Marlin.....................................2,942 ft-lb
.300 Remington Ultra Mag........................3,682 ft-lb
.375 Holland & Holland..........................4,230 ft-lb
.338 Lapua......................................4,830 ft-lb
.375 Remington Ultra Mag........................5,073 ft-lb
.416 Remington Magnum...........................5,115 ft-lb
.408 CheyTac....................................8,298 ft-lb
.416 Barrett....................................9,380 ft-lb
.585 Nyati.....................................10,130 ft-lb
.700 Nitro Express.............................11,150 ft-lb

Civilian AK's do define one end of the centerfire rifle power spectrum. It's the low end.

[Carnea]

131. So I take it your not familiar with the AK-47 NT

[pinniped]

148. That would just make sasquatch mad.

.

[slackmaster]

168. Yup, you'd probably end up naked with the rifle up your ass

:nuke:

[pinniped]

245. lol. I wouldn't face sasquatch with anything less than 12 gauge slugs.

.

[BurtWorm]

182. Communists.

:patriot:

[lpbk2713]

9. "Here. Hold my beer while I walk through these bushes with an assault rifle."

Jesus Fuggen Keerist.

This guy would make a good hunting partner for Deadeye Dick.

[benEzra]

92. "Assault weapons" are indeed rather popular as hunting rifles...

and are also the most popular centerfire target guns in the USA.

The Cheneyesque aspect was that the man was pointing a loaded rifle at the person in front of him instead of in a safe direction, AND had the safety off and the trigger guard uncovered.

"Always point a gun in a safe direction" is one of the most fundamental rules of gun safety, and it was violated here.

[Loki]

10. I am so sorry for this family,

but, I still have to ask why does anyone need an AK-47 to hunt with?

[RamboLiberal]

14. It's just a scary looking gun

It's fine for hunting. Not even more powerful than many other hunting calibers. Big deal! Heck you can buy 5 round hunting magazines for those states with a magazine limit for hunting.

[SergeyDovlatov]

28. It is just a cool looking gun n/t

[RamboLiberal]

55. Well scary to those whom want to ban "assault weapons"

w/o finding out very much about the firearms in question. Most of the AWB laws are stupid and not well thought out, especially the federal one passed in the 90's. Too bad Democrats got defeated at the polls over that law.

[Lorien]

194. There's nothing "cool" about something that is only made to take a life n/t.

[slackmaster]

196. I don't agree

I think Samurai swords are pretty cool.

[michreject]

200. Lots of stuff

[slackmaster]

66. A semiautomatic of that pattern is perfectly reasonable to use for hunting

Most states have magazine capacity restrictions, e.g. 5 rounds. Limited capacity magazines are available for any semiautomatic rifle.

[benEzra]

93. Same reason anyone would need a .30-30 Winchester to hunt with.

This wasn't a military AK-47; it was a non-automatic, civilian-only derivative of the AK. A small .30-caliber rifle that is absolutely reliable even when dirty or in adverse weather.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[miles 2 go]

24. ??? N/T

[gullwing300]

27. Well, shit...I figured that would be politically correct to SOMEBODY!

:shrug: :crazy: :silly: :beer:

[Bluebear]

36. Again you moan about "politically correct". You must piss off a lot of people with your fresh mouth

Then claim that people are "too PC". Right?

[gullwing300]

37. You never have explained to me what that blue and yellow thingy is.

I wonder if it's some kind of homophobic secret sign.

[Bluebear]

38. Yeah, it's a "homophobic secret sign". Idiot.

[gullwing300]

49. Well, thanks for admitting it. My Significant Other since 1981 and I find that comforting.

We will sleep better and together tonight.

[Bluebear]

52. Good. Take a ride in your imaginary Mercedes gullwing first.

[gullwing300]

57. Hahaha...it isn't imaginary, boy. Haven't you heard, we queers are RICH! RICH!!!

And we have guns too...which we're prepared to use defending your freedom - even if you don't ask.
:rofl:

You amuse me greatly.

[Bluebear]

58. I'm not your "boy" and I doubt you're "queer". Go play in traffic, troll.

[Richard Steele]

122. He got the door...

...and it was Dominoes:





Just another day in the life of our awesome DU Mods!



:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Bluebear]

147. Thank you, mods!

And thanks for telling me!

[varkam]

150. Snort!

I'm not responsible for it, but I just wanted to say your subject line is hilarious. Best laugh I've had all week. Consider it stolen.

:rofl:

[krispos42]

199. DUzy!

[Ghost in the Machine]

53. Wow, you really *are* dense, aren't you?

That's a rhetorical question, no need to answer...

[LostinVA]

160. Yes -- Bluebear is a regular ol' Fred Phelps

That's why I like him.

[Ghost in the Machine]

50. BINGO!

But don't confuse him with any facts or he'll put you on ignore. We're talking about someone who was defending a judge yesterday for having pornography, including bestiality, on his home server. See him in all his glory here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3432194


:hi:

[TexasObserver]

22. Unsafe gun handling practices kill people.

And it is usually the unsafe guy who does the accidental killing.

What was a round doing in the chamber?

What was the safety doing off?

What was he doing carrying his weapon so that it pointed toward the boy in front of him?

As for it being an AK-47, it's likely just another semi automatic rifle, and therefore, not really an assault weapon as configured. If it lacks the fully automatic capability, which is likely, it is not really a viable assault weapon. It's a hunting rifle that could be an assault rifle with the full auto parts installed.

[Burma Jones]

165. Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Here's your correct statement.......

[rdenney]

256. Ding-Dong...its TEXAS justice here. Grandpa walks cause it was an accident........

:puke:

[appal_jack]

29. Safety is the point here.

First of all, I will say that this is a horrible tragedy, and my heart and prayers go out to this family.

Secondly, the grandfather ignored one of the absolute rules of gun safety: never point the barrel at anything which you don't want to destroy. Had he obeyed this rule, his grandson would still be alive. The other two absolute rules are that all guns are always loaded (i.e.- should be treated as such) and that the index finger should not even enter the trigger guard until a target is acquired and a safe backstop is noted. Since this accident occurred by a tree branch entering the trigger guard, and I assume that the grandfather knew that the rifle was loaded, these other rules are less relevant to the discussion.

The use of mechanical safeties can be a worthwhile additional precaution, but their use should never be an excuse to ignore any of the above rules.

What is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion (but oh so useful to the anti-gunner's hype) is the model of rifle. This boy would have been killed just as dead had all other circumstances been the same, except that the grandfather was carrying a Browning A-Bolt Hunter. The AK is certainly not the ideal hunting rifle (not too accurate, shooting a round with a near-parabolic trajectory, etc.), but it will do at short range.

So please quit making political hay from this sad event, and take your gun-grabbing sensibilities elsewhere, as the Democratic Party's platform explicitly commits to upholding the 2nd Amendment.

-app

Edited for spelling, and to note that others have covered much the same ground above. Y'all must be faster typists... (or faster thinkers)

[Endangered Specie]

221. funny how your well reasoned post is ignored

"What is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion (but oh so useful to the anti-gunner's hype) is the model of rifle. This boy would have been killed just as dead had all other circumstances been the same, except that the grandfather was carrying a Browning A-Bolt Hunter."

He would have been *deader* had the grandad been using a full size hunting rifle.

[appal_jack]

271. well thanks for reading and saying so (n/t)

:hi:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. The family will never be the same

My step father lost his brother in a hunting accident on Thanksgiving Day, 1936. His brother had neglected to put on the safety, and the gun discharged while he was climbing a fence. My step father never stopped hunting or owning guns. He did stress the need for gun safety, though.

[MnFats]

59. and in this state about a month ago a man shot and killed his young son...

while hunting wild turkeys.
everyone extended theiri sympathy and grief...
..untill it was learned that the man had weed and alcohol in his system.
i believe he is now charged with negligent homicide.
not too much sympathy for him now....



i only mention it to point out that you can't dump all these cases into one basket...and that alcohol and guns, as if anyone needed to be told, don't mix

[liberal N proud]

32. Who hunts with an AK-47?

And what would you be hunting that required that much fire power?

[TomInTib]

45. A lot of people hunt with them

And, in reality, there are many hunting rifle calibers with much more knockdown power that a 7.62.

It's really a pretty decent, very reliable firearm.

[slackmaster]

69. It's less powerful than a 30-30

I'm sorry you have been misinformed.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

206. Sigmund Freud was a racist and a sexist

Why do you choose to perpetuate one of his sillier ideas?

[krispos42]

203. The "firepower" of an AK-47...

...a real, army-issue AK-47, is is the magazine capacity and full-auto mechanism.

The round fired by the AK-47 and it's civilian-legal (non-automatic) bretheren is actually on the low end of the rifle power spectrum. Adequate for deer up to about 200 yards or so but significantly less powerful that the very common deer cartridges like the .270 Win., 7mm Rem Mag., .308 Win., .30-06, .243 Win., .25-06, etc.

And depending on the hunting laws in Texas, you have to use different-size magazines. Big game like deer is usually restricted to 5 rounds.

But the standard 30-round magazine ("bananna clip") is very common and very inexpensive due to the collapse and disarmament of the Warsaw Pact, so the guy might have been hunting hogs or something with it.

It's unlikely he would need the 30-round magazine when hog hunting, but if he already owned the magazine and it's not illegal, why not bring it with you?

[Endangered Specie]

222. An AK has *less* firing power than any 'true' hunting rifle.

To hunt with an Ak, you have to use a 5rd magazine btw, its also semi-auto only, and the 7.62x39 is a good short range, medium game taker, its also dirt cheap.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. AK-47. Hunting. Snagged trigger. Football. Texas

Some packages are perfectly wrapped.

[gullwing300]

46. And some commenters are very loosely wrapped.

:grr:

[rdenney]

255. Bingo! You go to, or worse, live in Texas, you takes your chances.

No remorse, no mercy. Long live the Alamo, baby!

[whistle]

42. Hunting with an AK-47, what were they after, illegals?

[benEzra]

94. Deer or hogs.

Civilian AK's are basically modern-looking .30-30 Winchesters, and work just like a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle. This wasn't a restricted military AK, it was a civilian gun.

[flvegan]

47. What a horrible shame for the kid and his entire family.

Life for these folks will never be the same.

[Medusa]

60. What the hell were they hunting?

bigfoot?

[slackmaster]

68. You should read reply #41

:argh:

[slackmaster]

61. As always, two or more of the safe gun handling rules had to be violated to result in an accident

This is a terrible tragedy for everyone involved.

And the ignorance on display in this thread is shameful.

[Adarlene]

70. My father hunted all during my childhood and never needed a

damn machine gun!
Seriously... who needs a rapid fire rifle for hunting deer or moose?

IMO all automatic and semi-automatic rifles should be banned and life in prison doled out for those caught with one.

Of course, those who are pro-gun cannot understand HOW a person could get through life with a plain single shot old 22 or 30-30...

from wikipedia:

To fire, the operator inserts a loaded magazine, moves the selector lever to the lowest position, pulls back and releases the charging handle, aims, and then pulls the trigger.

In this setting, the firearm fires only once (semi-automatic), requiring the trigger to be released and depressed again for the next shot.

With the selector in the middle position (full-automatic), the rifle continues to fire, automatically cycling fresh rounds into the chamber, until the magazine is exhausted or pressure is released from the trigger.


Is this good for tenderizing the meat? Is there even any meat left on the animal or just lead? What's the point?

[gullwing300]

73. I'm just guessing here, but you never majored in education...right?

:eyes:

[Adarlene]

86. Actually I haven't seen a rifle or a gun for 25+ years...

What does education have to do with automatic weapons?

I simply don't see the need for a weapon such as this. Sorry if that offends you. I guess we live in different worlds. In mine one does not require a semi or fully automatic weapon that, I might add, was built for the express purpose of killing human beings.

I fully support hunters, trappers and ranchers/farmers who own rifles but anything more is simply a bane to society IMO.

[benEzra]

96. This was NOT an automatic weapon, it was a NON-automatic civilian gun.

Automatic weapons (including military AK-47's) have been tightly controlled by Federal law for 74 years, under the same law that regulates howitzers, hand grenades, and 500-lb bombs.

This was a NON-automatic CIVILIAN gun, that fires once and only once when the trigger is pulled and will not fire again until the trigger is released and pulled a second time.

[derby378]

135. Once again, the Second Amendment is NOT about hunting or sports

It's about the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Recalibrate your thinking - hunters and sportsmen aren't the only civilians entitled to own guns. The Second Amendment does not speak of need, it speaks of right. If it didn't, then some Repuke could just as easily say, "I simply don't see the need for a blog such as DU or DailyKos. Sorry if that offends you, but why can't you be happy with FOX News?"

And, as benEzra pointed out, that AK is semi-automatic, meaning that it only fires one shot for each squeeze of the trigger.

[Dukkha]

111. your stay will be short here with asinine alarmist logic like that

:eyes:
it wasn't a full auto machine gun and you KNEW that! But it's more fun to post flat out lies to support your gun grabbing extremist views isn't it?
Buh-bye!

[ManiacJoe]

124. self delete.

No sense piling on....

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

72. Who the hell takes a AK-47 hutting???????

[gullwing300]

76. Nobody does. Hutting requires a fazer.

:shrug:

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

115. hutting...ha ha

stuped spellchecker :dunce:

[benEzra]

80. A non-automatic civilian AK is a ballistic twin of the old .30-30 Winchester.

and functionally identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle (same caliber, same rate of fire, same range of magazine capacities). With 150-grain softpoints, they are basically a modern-looking .30-30.

Here's a civilian AK lookalike in deer hunting configuration (4x scope, 5-round hunting magazine):



Here's a civilian AK in a more traditional looking stock:



Like all civilian AK's, neither is a real NFA Title 2/Class III restricted AK-47; they are non-automatic civilian-only carbines that resemble AK-47's and use the same magazines, but function like a Ruger Mini Thirty or other civilian autoloaders.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

116. Thanks, but I think I watched to much Rambo....

I pictured AK-47 as something really BIGGER. You know, made for t.v. type aka Rambo & Terminator.

[benEzra]

128. LOL. Of course, Rambo's was a machinegun...

and he was shooting blanks, and magically always hit whatever he wasn't even bothering to aim at. Hollywood magic for you.

I shoot recreationally and and competitively with the first rifle in the previous post. It's a 2002 model Romanian SAR-1, non-automatic.

Here it is in a nonhunting configuration, with a 1x optic (Russian Kobra collimator sight) and a 20-round magazine. This is the way I configure it for USPSA competition, and the way it would be set up if I grabbed it to investigate the proverbial bump in the night.

[rdenney]

258. American Gun-Nutz, thats who!

[ulysses]

77. why did grandpa have the gun pointed at the boy?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

101. you're an interesting one.

Perhaps the better phrasing would be "why wasn't the gun pointed at the ground"?

[gullwing300]

112. I have owned and carried guns for fifty nine years. Seriously.

Which demonstrates that I'm an old phart...true enough, but I'm not an idiot. Nor am I senile...I deliver sick people to various destinations in the plane I am paid fairly handsomely to fly...usually at a minute or so notice. Not today, it's my day off. :D

[ulysses]

113. ok...so why was grandpa carrying the gun with the muzzle up?

[slackmaster]

118. Grandpa made a serious mistake

:shrug:

[ulysses]

121. one might say so.

I'm still not sure why in hell one would choose to hunt with a Kalashnikov at any rate, unless it's for the "coolness" factor, which makes me wonder if he wasn't playing soldier with it.

[slackmaster]

136. So many possible speculations on that one...

Maybe it's the only firearm he owns. It wouldn't be a bad choice for someone on a tight budget.

[ulysses]

138. as a general purpose item?

Not sure I buy that. If I'm on a tight budget and looking for something I can use for a variety of purposes, a 12-gauge is a more likely buy.

It's all speculation, sure, but I still haven't heard of any serious hunter taking a fricking 47 out after game.

[slackmaster]

139. I know of people who have hunted with semiautomatic rifles in 7.62 x 39 Soviet

As long as the rifle meets the applicable legal requirements (e.g. sufficient power for the game, type of ammunition permitted for hunting, magazine capacity limits, etc.), what difference does it make?

[ulysses]

140. none I suppose, unless grandpa was playing Rambo, as I mentioned.

Maybe he wasn't, but I suspect that a pistol grip makes some folks' blood run a little faster.

[Pavulon]

142. Pointless, stupidity trumps

the akm (ak-47 is obsolete) and all ak variants have a 3 position safety (safe, full auto, semi) exact opposite of an M4. However this mechanism is defeated by stupidity.

this was probably an sks common every mans hunting rifle.

however fundamental rules that apply to any weapon were broken to end up here.

All other concerns are secondary. He could have had an m249 or ruger 10/22 the only difference is the number of holes in the victim.

[ulysses]

144. this is true.

Deeply sad - as with the guy who killed his son a while back, I can't imagine the horror. But goddamn, keep the gun pointed at the fucking ground.

[benEzra]

174. Why?

Maybe he wasn't, but I suspect that a pistol grip makes some folks' blood run a little faster.

Why?

Most very-high-end target rifles have either pistol grips, or other stocks that approximate pistol grips:





And it's actually harder to point a pistol-gripped rifle at the back of someone in front of you, since when the gun is lowered, a natural wrist position puts the gun pointing at the ground in front of your feet. He'd have to have the gun almost shouldered to be comfortably pointing it at the grandson's back, IMO. It looks to me like he was holding the gun like he was on point, even though he wasn't.

[apocalypsehow]

79. The answer, of course, is more guns in more hands in everyplace we can get them.

:sarcasm:

[gullwing300]

83. Sarcasm noted. What's your solution?

Care to share with us?

[apocalypsehow]

88. Sure: Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them in - to coin a phrase. n/t.

[gullwing300]

95. You want me (a Mr. America) to give away my guns to the GOVERNMENT????

Are you fucking insane? No offense...

:eyes:

[apocalypsehow]

99. Just your assault rifles and your handguns larger than a .22 caliber. Your hunting rifles & plinking

toys you should be free to keep - as long you keep them out of the hands of kids and criminals.

[benEzra]

104. No, we'll keep them, thanks. (n/t)

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

126. Don't know what #106 said because I had to step away for a bit, but for the record it wasn't

a post of mine.

[benEzra]

175. Thanks. (n/t)

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Endangered Specie]

223. How many decades would you like us to lose elections?

[sir pball]

262. My hunting rifle...

IS an "assault weapon" (NOT an assault RIFLE, it's most definitely semi-automatic) ZOMG!!!!

It's the most accurate and also most weatherproof rifle I own (my bolt-actions all have nice wood stocks I don't want to carry in the rain).

[benEzra]

89. So, you want to ban hunting now?

The problem here was two major violations of gun safety rules:

(1) rifle pointed in an unsafe direction (at the kid) while walking through the woods (the most egregious violation);

(2) safety off, trigger guard uncovered, in thick brush.

Any hunting rifle would fire if the safety were off and the trigger were pulled by a branch, and any hunting rifle that went off while pointed at a child in front of you would have caused the same outcome.

If you've got a rifle in your hands and there is someone walking the trail in front of you, the rifle needs to be pointed at the sky or at the ground in front of your feet, NOT at the back of the person in front of you. That is one of the most fundamental rules of gun safety.

[apocalypsehow]

90. Not hunting - just machine guns and assault rifles. n/t.

[ingac70]

91. This old man...

woulda shot that kid in the back regardless of what sort of rifle he was carrying.

He was careless.

[gullwing300]

98. Machine guns , aka automatic guns have been essentially 'banned' for 60 years.

I think you know that but you want to keep the bullshit complaint alive.

And I really have to wonder what you think "assault rifle" actually means. And also why you seem to think they are frequently used in crimes. They are not.
:grr:

[apocalypsehow]

100. Never been to Jersey. n/t.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

109. Per the FBI, New Jersey had 428 murders in 2006, none involving rifles

including the much-hyped "assault weapons."

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2006
Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon

New Jersey

Total murders................................428
Handguns.....................................270
Edged weapons.................................69
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)........47
Hands, fists, feet, etc.......................23
Firearms (type unknown).......................12
Shotguns.......................................7
Rifles.........................................0

Nontraditional looking rifles aren't a crime problem in New Jersey or anywhere else, though the MSM has certainly been working overtime to create that perception.

[depakid]

151. A simple google news search shows the NRA propaganda to be BULLSHIT

http://news.google.com/news?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=ak%2047&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

Police: Pair Gunned Down By AK-47
WDSU, LA - 27 May 2008
Police said an AK-47 assault rifle was used. Officers canvassed the area after the shooting looking for four male assailants driving a black Ford Explorer. ...

Police Believe Robbery Suspect Has Stolen AK-47
NewsNet5.com, OH - 23 May 2008
CLEVELAND -- Cleveland police are looking for a man they said they believe took part in a robbery in which several weapons were stolen, including an AK-47 ...

Man Robs Eastside Applebee's with AK-47
93.1 WIBC Indianapolis, IN - 23 May 2008
Mount says the AK-47 was never fired, but it's dangerous for someone to be roaming the streets with that type of high-powered weapon.

Robbery Victim Shot With AK-47
Tampa Tribune, FL - 18 May 2008
Just after midnight, deputies says, Javier Gutierrez, 24, was walking home from El Paisano's Bar when he was robbed and shot by a black male with an AK-47. ...

Connecticut Teen Fires AK-47 At Basketball Players
AHN - 14 May 2008
Brooklyn, CT (AHN) - A 16-year-old boy has been arrested and charged with attempted murder after firing an AK-47 assault rifle at a group of people at a ...

Fla. man pleads guilty in Va. Tech-style threat
The Associated Press - 11 Jun 2008
MIAMI (AP) — A man possessing an arsenal of AK-47 assault weapons, other guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition at the time of his arrest pleaded guilty ...
---------------------

Yep, AK-47's aren't a problem in America....

[NickB79]

152. In BizzaroLand, FBI stats magically transform into "NRA propaganda"

And are trumped by a Google search.

What an odd assertion to make.

Yes, rifles of all kinds are used in crime. According to the FBI, they are used in less than 3% of all murders. I would be more concerned about the other 97% of the weapons out there than I would be over rifles, since they are a very small portion of the problem.

[depakid]

153. It's bizzarro land to NOT BELIEVE ONES OWN EYES

and contend that AK-47's (along with America's astonishingly high homicide rate isn't a problem CAUSED by the proliferation of firearms..

AND a population pathologically obsessed with them.

btw: those reports are only on the first two pages and only cover the past 3 weeks!

Reality check: the NRA and gun proponents spam the web with cherry picked stats, spurious conclusions a climate of denial and callousness that often surpises people as cynical as me.

[EstimatedProphet]

158. Really? Look at the stats again in post #109

Edged wweapons were the secondmost common murder weapon in the list. Over 16% of the murders on that list used edged weapons. Knives, etc.

Are you planning on banning knives? It wouldn't be possible to run a restaurant or kitchen anymore.

If by some odd chance you are right about firearms actually causing murders, why are knives second on the list, well past other types of firearms? Hell, even baseball bats apparently were used more often than rifles!

You are not even remotely interested in curtailing violence in this country. You just want to ban guns, and you have fooled yourself into thinking that banning guns equals reducing crime. Without addressing the real causes of crime, people without guns will use knives, as they clearly do, to kill people. If you want to really reduce violent crime, then address why it is in our society that guns are seen as a solution. Address poverty. Address intolerance and racism. Address spousal and family abuse. Address the issues concerning living in a crowded urban environment, which is completely unnatural and artificial.

Nah. It's just easier to ban guns and lie yourself into believing that you fixed all of societies' problems, isn't it?

[depakid]

187. Reality check #2

Remove easy access to firearms (particularly certain types of firearms) and you reduce gun deaths and injuries.

AND deaths and injuries overall. The Australian example is proof positive of that.

Yet the gun apologists game folks with sophistry to justify their self-indulgence. Very much like people with OCD do to rationalize their obsessions.

Seems to me that the healthier way to deal is to simply accept the obvious- namely, that the proliferation of firearms is a major burden on American society, and a price that many Americans are more than willing to pay and condemn their children to pay.

[krispos42]

204. Australian example?

C'mon, you've go to try harder than that...

[depakid]

212. As usual, the apologists are well organized and armed

with graphs attempting to game folks with spurious rationalizations that defy what anyone can see with their own eyes or better yet, with targeted analysis.

Here's some actual peer reviewed science using an epidemiological approach:

Massive gun 'buyback' doubled fall in Australian gun deaths

The chances of gun death in Australia dropped twice as steeply after 700,000 guns were destroyed in a national firearm ‘buyback’ and amnesty, reveals a decade long study in Injury Prevention.

The study tracks the 10 years following the introduction of gun law reform in Australia between 1996 and 1998.

The legislation was prompted by a firearm massacre in Tasmania in 1996, when 35 people were killed and a further 18 seriously wounded.

The reforms banned the use of semi automatic and pump action shotguns and rifles, destroying more than 700,000 weapons taken from a population of 12 million adults.

The study shows that in the 18 years before the legislation was passed, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, in which 112 people died and 52 were wounded.

There have been no mass shootings since the law came into force.

The fall in the number of deaths associated with the use of firearms, including suicides, rapidly accelerated after the law took effect.

The decline was at least twice as high (6%) as it had been before the reforms were introduced.

n the 18 years prior to the legislation, on average, 491 people took their lives, using a firearm. After the legislation, this fell to an average of 246.

Similarly, the number of murders using guns fell from an annual average of 93 to just over 55.

There was no evidence that the use of other methods to commit suicide or homicide increased.

Before the introduction of the law, the overall number of homicides not related to guns had increased 1% a year. After the law took effect, this number fell by almost 2.5% a year.

And the total numbers of suicides fell by 4% after having risen annually by 2% before the introduction of the gun laws.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/12/6/365

[Pavulon]

237. Swiss example..

machine guns, ak variants (cousins) actually in the form of a sig55x rifle are in 20% of homes. Murder rate is less than that of most nation. On par with japan where there is a total ban in place.

Rifle shootings in the us are a tiny number. More people drown in swimming pools. Your kid on his phone texting someone is more likely to kill me than a guy with a gun.

Are you suggesting we do the same here in the us. Start in DC, go get all those banned handguns that are stacking bodies right now.

Make it work there, good luck with that.

[krispos42]

248. ROTFLMAO

So there's no statistically significant change in Australia's homicide rate, but it's a success because the dead bodies don't have bullet holes in them?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here's an idea. Why don't you get Australia to ban the sale and ownership of white-painted automobiles. Then go on national TV in Oz and say with a straight face that that because white-car-painted traffic accidents and deaths are down, Australian roads are safer than ever before.

Go on. Do it. I want to see if you can maintain a straight face for the masses.

[Tejas]

284. Ban alcohol and cure the DWI problem

Turn in your booze!

[Tejas]

285. Some here would call their own mother a liar

The FBI is lying, The DOJ is lying, Apollo didn't make it to the Moon..............


I see a trend here.

[benEzra]

171. I cited the FBI, not the NRA. But let me cite the head of what is now the Brady Campaign...

I cited the FBI, not the NRA. But let me cite the head of what is now the Brady Campaign, the late Pete Shields (head of what is now the Brady Campaign 1978-1989) that the U.S. gun-control lobby would have done well to remember:

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM; they are not concealable." (Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48, emphasis added).

That statement is no less true now than it was then. "Assault weapons" were just as available then as now for anyone who wanted one (more, actually, since back then you could buy a brand new AR-15 straight from a dealer without a background check). And rifle crime is just as low now as it was then.

According to the FBI, all rifles put together, including civilian AK's, AR-15's, ALL of them, account for only half as many murders annually as shoes and bare hands do--2.97% in 2005 and 2.91% in 2006.

2005 data: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html

Total murders.............................14,860..........100.00%
Handguns...................................7,543...........50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).....1,954...........13.15%
Edged weapons..............................1,914...........12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)....................1,598...........10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................892............6.00%
Shotguns.....................................517............3.48%
Rifles.......................................442............2.97%

2006 data: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html

Total murders.............................14,990..........100.00%
Handguns...................................7,795...........52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).....2,158...........14.40%
Edged weapons..............................1,822...........12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)....................1,465............9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................833............5.56%
Shotguns.....................................481............3.21%
Rifles.......................................436............2.91%

Some state breakdowns:

Alabama, 349 murders in 2006; 0 with rifles.

Colorado, 156 murders; 0 with rifles.

Illinois, 487 murders; 4 with rifles.

Louisiana, 488 murders; 29 with rifles.

Maryland, 546 murders; 5 with rifles.

Michigan, 711 murders; 29 with rifles.

New York, 921 murders, 14 with rifles.

North Carolina (my state), 530 murders, 23 with rifles.


Ummmm, do you see a pattern here? Rifles of all types are the LEAST misused category of firearm in this country.

We live in a nation of 300 million people. Fourteen thousand people a year are murdered in this country, less than 500 with ANY type of rifle, less than a hundred with any type of AK lookalike. No, rifles of any type are NOT a crime problem in the USA and never have been, despite the attempts by the repubs at the Brady Campaign to create the perception that they are.

Considering that "assault weapons" are the most popular civilian centerfire rifles in the USA, and that more people own them than hunt, the fact that rifles account for less than 3% of murders annually shows that no, rifles are NOT a crime problem in the USA and never have been.

[depakid]

193. You can use all the sophistry you like

none of which vitiates the fact that for any given month, I can run a google news search for "AK-47" and find a dozen reported crimes associated with them in the United States.

Another curious fact: the other nations where "AK-47" comes up are unstable areas of the world like Ghana, Uganda, or parts of India, etc.

That the weapons of choice in the states happens to be handguns doesn't show that assault rifles aren't a problem, what it shows is that easy access to handguns is even MORE of a problem.

BTW: the pattern (I say this somewhat facetiously) that I've noticed over the past several years is that mass shootings and food recalls run on a staggered basis every couple of month. America's just had another round of contaminated tomatoes, can another mass shooting be far behind?

[benEzra]

201. You do realize actual AK-47's (like you hear about in Uganda) are banned here, yes?

Another curious fact: the other nations where "AK-47" comes up are unstable areas of the world like Ghana, Uganda, or parts of India, etc.

You do realize actual AK-47's (like you hear about in Uganda) are banned here, yes? There are only a tiny number of pre-'86 Title 2/Class III restricted AK-47's in the hands of collectors, and they go for around $15,000 apiece--and possession of one without Federal authorization is a 10-year Federal felony, unless you are military, police, government, or a government contractor.

none of which vitiates the fact that for any given month, I can run a google news search for "AK-47" and find a dozen reported crimes associated with them in the United States.

Which proves my point. Thank you. Apparently you don't grasp the statistical import of your observation, so let me spell it out for you.

This is a nation of 300 MILLION people. A hundred and fifty people a month are murdered with knives, 8300/month die from alcohol related injuries. And despite the Von Restoff bias that ensures that most "AK" crimes hit the national wire services, AK's are involved in maybe five or ten murders in a month. Ten times that many people drown in bathtubs. Statistically, more people are murdered with Nike and Reebok shoes than are murdered with civilian AK's in this country.

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM; they are not concealable." (Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48, emphasis added).

The "AK menace" is just as much a fabrication as "reefer madness" was, and was concocted for similar reasons--to stampede the gullible into supporting legislation that would otherwise be rejected as irrational and wrongheaded.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

--H.L. Mencken

[slackmaster]

205. Given the amount of propaganda from the gun-ban advocates, your confusion is understandable

An AK-47 in Uganda is not the same critter as a semiautomatic, civilian variant of an AK-47 that you are likely to find being used by a hunter in the USA. The former is capable of fully automatic fire. The latter is not.

[depakid]

208. Splitting technical hairs

Has little to do with the point I made- which is:

Look at the places where you see news about these weapons being used. Similar comparisons among nations can be made with respect to the death penalty.

btw: bona fide gun collectors aren't where the beef lies here- it's with proliferation of such throughout the states and the inevitability that they'll end up in irresponsible hands and used in crimes, where their large capacity magazines have much more potential to do great harm than any hunting rifles.

[slackmaster]

214. Calling the difference between semi- and fully automatic a technical hair does not reflect well

On your knowledge of the subject.

Has little to do with the point I made- which is:

Look at the places where you see news about these weapons being used....

No, you are comparing apples to oranges.

[depakid]

217. It's essentially the same weapon for all intents and purposes

it's the high capacity magazine- and the nature of the weapon, not the rate of fire that's relevant here.

Basically, what floats around in the states is the non-turbocharged version (although there are sites on the web that someone with reasonable skills can use to figure out how to convert to full auto, if they're so inclined).

Bet you could do it if ya wanted to, eh?

[slackmaster]

218. There is a huge difference in how much of a threat one poses to public safety vs. the other

Also a huge difference in legality.

The Ruger Mini-30 functions exactly the same as a semiautomatic AK variant BTW. And there are large magazines available for it as well. But nobody is peeing and moaning about them, because they look "traditional" and not military.

[depakid]

219. The AK does have an emotional component to it, I agree

but my take is that's part of the problem, in the sense of the types of people whose hands they fall into and their motivations for owning them.

[slackmaster]

220. Talking about "types of people" and what you think are their motivations is dangerous ground

Be careful what you wish for.

[depakid]

225. Just what I see with my own eyes

Gangsters and drug dealers have an affinity for the weapon- as do others who want to appear macho and tough.

I would also add that I find folks who are defending the use of the AK for hunting "varmints" and such to be absurd.

[Pavulon]

233. SKS is a working mans rifle

cheap ammo etc. Some can afford a 22-250 for varmit, 308 for range work and deer from weatherby, and a magnum rifle for the 400yd shot at an elk we will never take. Optics for each at $1700 (*3) and then a couple of nice shorguns for range work, upland game, and then the same in a gun you dont mind damaging in the rain or not cleaning.

So 10 grand later you have lots of really nice guns that serve a special purpose. Or you have a $200 sks with a $200 scope.

gangsta or not, rifles are used less than knives in us murders.

Popular culture in rap videos or GTA4 does not reality make.

[benEzra]

244. How many AK owners do you know personally?

I know several. One is a graphic designer where I work. One is a Marine sergeant. One is a fellow USPSA competitor. One is a police officer. And one is me.

"Gangsters and drug dealers" generally carry pistols, not rifles. It's hard to conceal a 3-foot-long, 10-inch-high, seven-pound rifle in your pants. And anyone who thinks owning a civilian AK makes you "macho" is a doofus.

I personally don't hunt, but if I ever do take up deer hunting, it will be with my AK, an optic, and a 5-round hunting magazine.

[beevul]

272. What exactly do you see with your own eyes...

What exactly do you see with your own eyes, and is it what you think it is, or want it to be? Or is it something else?





You and a few others here like to reference googling ak-47 as if its meaningful. But is it really?


You harp on the term a whole bunch, as does the MSM, but like the MSM, I very much doubt you'd know an ak-47 if you saw one.


"Gangsters and drug dealers have an affinity for the weapon- as do others who want to appear macho and tough."

Really? What are those "Gangsters and drug dealers" using them for, since all evidence shows for a fact that ak-47 rifles in semi-auto or full auto account for less murder than hands and feet do?

If they aren't using them to murder people in large numbers as people like you claim they're intended for, what exactly ARE they using them for?


"I would also add that I find folks who are defending the use of the AK for hunting "varmints" and such to be absurd."

It's deeply saddening that someone would consider his/her opinions about hunting and firearms to be worth spewing in public when s/he is so totally ignorant of the subject matter, and so deeply uninterested in learning the minimum necessary to have an opinion of even minimal value.

[Endangered Specie]

230. I call bullshit on that one...

please find the site that shows how to convert a legal semi to a full auto... a rifle that is "readily" converted to full auto, by federal law *IS* a full auto!

[Pavulon]

236. Nope. Many different parts..

just like you cant take the parts from an M4 that says "US Government property" and put them in a Colt M4 sold in gun shops and make a working rifle.

You would have a 10 year felony just for possessing the part. Even if you don't use it.

I work in fabrication and have access to multi million dollar tooling equipment. It would be easier to recreate the rifle from a working copy than to retrofit a replica rifle.

Even with access to a machine shop it would take hours, and then probably not work or blow up in your face.

[krispos42]

270. I am about to show you something that will scare you

How to shoot a 100% legal semiautomatic rifle like a restricted full-auto rifle:

AR-15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c&NR=1

M1 Garand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBQrtzSdVDo

Make your own fully-automatic submachine gun:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/9mmPistol.shtml

Free, downloadable PDFs to make your own submachine gun out plumbing parts.



You may now commence soiling yourself.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

276. Where was the New Jersey link? Since that's what the question was about.

You really need to read before you post.

David

[sir pball]

269. To split hairs..

Assault rifles are clearly defined and NFA-regulated - military select-fire, magazine-fed rifles that utilize an intermediate-caliber (5.56, 7.62x39, 5.45) round.

Assault weapons on the other hand, are whatever people decide is scary that week, or whatever the particular state/city/town has legislated - no nationally accepted definition (IIRC even during the days of the Fed AWB there were varying state laws). It's a pretty good bit of disingenuity that capitalizes on the former term to demonize the latter.

[benEzra]

102. Machineguns and actual assault rifles are already tightly controlled, as you probably already know.

Non-automatic civilian guns with protruding handgrips ("assault weapons" in Brady-speak) aren't restricted because they don't work any differently than more traditional looking rifles.

And good luck with banning them, since more of us own them than hunt. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, though.

In this case, the rifle's appearance was irrelevant; the man was pointing a loaded gun in an unsafe direction, with the safety off and trigger guard uncovered, in a wooded area with lots of snags. That is a violation of the most fundamental rules of gun safety.

[apocalypsehow]

97. Oh, BTW & while I'm thinking 'bout it: I actually went to a firing range the other day courtesy of a

family member I haven't seen in twenty years who is a Highway Patrolman (big-time family reunion over Memorial Day).

Under his supervision I got to shoot one of those Glocks I'm always hearing about, something called a Sig, and a real live Smith & Wesson Matt Dillon type looking thing. It was kinda fun, I've got to confess: first time I've shot any handgun more powerful than a .22 (and that .22 thing was years ago on my Grandfather's farm).

Even though it was, as I say, quite enjoyable shooting at paper targets on a personal level, I'm still glad he was the one in possession of those firearms after we left the range, not me. Those are the implements of his trade, so to speak, and he needs them. I do not. And that is the essence of where we disagree in this debate.

[benEzra]

117. Glad to hear you got to the range, and kudos for having an open mind.

FWIW, your family member doesn't "need" any gun other than his issue weapon, and he doesn't even "need" to keep that at home rather than in a government armory, if you think about it. The guns he personally owns and keeps at home, he owns as a U.S. citizen with a clean record, not as a Highway Patrolman. Precisely the same basis that my wife and I own some of those same guns (my wife shoots a Glock 26).

Sigs are made like Swiss watches (no coincidence, since the company is partly Swiss). Glocks are Austrian, and IMO the most reliable handguns made. I am very partial to Smith & Wessons, and my carry gun is a S&W 3913 Ladysmith, FWIW.

I would never force the choice of gun ownership upon you; if you don't wish to own them, I completely understand and respect that choice. But I believe that mentally competent adults with clean records should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

[Catherine Vincent]

84. What a tragedy.

This will probably kill the grandfather eventually. He probably won't be able to cope with the accident that was his fault. :(

[benEzra]

120. Indeed. I can't even begin to imagine the guilt he must be feeling. (n/t)

[Ilsa]

85. Oh my Goddess, THAT IS PRACTICALLY NEXT DOOR!

Lavaca county is next door. My mother-in-law was born in Moulton. I haven't heard it covered on the news here. They must be blacking it out for privacy reasons.

I feel sorry for them. My guess is that the grandfather won't last too much longer. He won't be able to live with himself over this.

[MissB]

114. How awful for the family.

[newmajority]

129. If you need an AK-47 to kill an animal

you should find a new "sport".

As if killing something should be a sport in the first fucking place.

[EstimatedProphet]

159. Try reading the thread first.

[Endangered Specie]

231. You only get 5 rounds to hunt with...

in an AK as is any other hunting rifle... compare and contrast:

AK:


mini-14:

[Carnea]

132. Every year down hear children drown while the grandparents were watching them.

It's equally tragic. (I remember when it happened to Stew Leonard Jr.s son of the grocery store fame when I was a kid)

Needless to say accidents happen and this was clearly an accident. I would be surprised if the grandfather faced charges honestly there isn't anything a judge or jury can do to him he isn't doing to himself.

[virginia mountainman]

133. This is a terrible, tragic accident...

But, I put my glass up to most of you in this thread

:toast:

For bringing up the "facts" about "so called" assault weapons, and the out right dishonest ways of the Anti-Civil advocates, that pop up in here from time to time. Realizing the truth of the "gun debate" and keeping an open mind to the facts.

Some of us, forget, that we Democrats are the guardians of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We are the ones that hold those whoring Rethugs in check.

It is nice, to see the insurrection, lead by Republicans, like Sara Brady, and Paul Hemick, being called out for what they are...

[Vickers]

134. I didn't know Cheney had any grandchildren.

:spank:

Seriously, you have to fuck up about 3 or 4 different ways to "accidentally" shoot someone.

I'd wager it's MORE difficult to do so with a semi-automatic than, say, a revolver.

P.S. Rest easy little feller, I hope you left without even knowing what happened.

[Pavulon]

137. A real AK you would pick up off the ground

in Iraq or some place a dead guy dropped it functions as so:

It has a big ass metal lever that goes from safe to fully automatic to semi automatic. From face to foot, no bang, lots of bangs, one bang. These things are made for a 10 year old to operate.

Ie, this was not an ak-47, akm or other select fire soviet bloc or Chinese infantry weapon.

It was a semi automatic rifle, probably an SKS, because the press are monumentally stupid.

But what really matters is that:

peckerwood POINTED a loaded weapon at a person, pretty basic point means death.
peckerwood failed to safe his weapon as common sense dictates
peckerwood had a round in the chamber while in heavy cover while doing the above.

these things come with a manual, they say not to do these things.

user error. ak-47, m4, or 240golf dictate the same rules as a 22lr. break them and this is the outcome..

ps, dont drink starbucks and fuck with your ipod or blackberry and drive, death will result as well.

[Endangered Specie]

232. nice touch at the end there...

ps, dont drink starbucks and fuck with your ipod or blackberry and drive, death will result as well.


probably kills more people than hunting accidents.

[-..__...]

145. Possibly a VEPR.

The Russian VEPR is a hunting rifle designed after the AK Rifle and built upon a RPK receiver. The rifle also comes in four different calibers .308, 7.62x39, .223 and 5.45x39. The VEPR rifle has the same reliability as an AK allowing it to work at temperatures of -50 to +50 C and in any conditions. However the rifle also has accuracy, allowing it to obtain scores of 92 points out of 100 at 200 yards.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/VEPR.htm

http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/vepr.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20060615161852/www.ak47.com


This Super VEPR is taking a nap on a Pig which is also taking a nap.





You "no one needs an "assault rifle" for hunting" buffoons will have to find something else to wag your tongues and fingers at.

Nothing to see here other than a tragic hunting accident.

[orleans]

146. oh jesus christ!

unfuckingreal.....

what a tragedy.

[sammytko]

155. Father and grandfather both police officers

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA061308.2B.shootingaccident.EN.36e0363.html

Very sad story.

[notadmblnd]

161. what happened to "Safety on, Muzzel pointed up?

That's how we were taught to walk in the woods with a gun. Horrible stupid accident that didn't need to happen.

[slackmaster]

164. AK-pattern rifles have an exceptionally good safety

Robust, reliable, and easy to use. If you use it.

[Endangered Specie]

234. He should not have even allowed his son to walk ahead of the gun...

the guy with the gun always go first, if more than one, walk side by side.

[MadHound]

166. Violation of several safety rules resulted in this death.

First, Gramps wasn't carrying the gun in the right position, barrel up or barrel down, not barrel pointed in the general direction of another person. Second, Gramps didn't have the safety on, another big no-no. Safeties were designed to protect against this sort of tragedy, but they don't work if they're not engaged. Third, Gramps was traveling with a bullet chambered, more stupidity. Yes, I realize that Gramps is probably in agony over this one, but it's his own damn fault. Once again, stupidity and guns simply don't mix.

[sammytko]

167. He was a retired police officer

And his father is a police officer. Very lax...

[Endangered Specie]

226. some LEOs have little to no training or understanding of gun handling

[newportdadde]

169. Type of gun isn't the issue, the grandfather wasn't following rules on how to carry your firearm.

Weapon should have had safety engaged. Should have had the weapon pointed down carrying it with his arm cradled. Could have had it pointed up to across the shoulder too if nobody was behind him I suppose.

[tuckessee]

176. A double whammy of dumbshitness - cops & hunters.

I've been to many, many gun shows.

Only twice have firearms accidently discharged at these shows, both times by active, on duty cops. Once in Louisville, once in Nashville.

Just like the law, cops think gun safety only applies to the civilian morons

[Wcross]

183. Why is the type of weapon an issue?

Could have happened with any rifle. I suppose it "helps" those that think banning firearms based on their appearance is a good thing however it is not relevant in this case.

[panhead1961]

188. I own an AK-47 - Gun ownership responsibility is the problem

Nothing will bring back the boy - what a tragedy. Not having the safety on and carrying the gun in a manner that could cause an accident is careless and irresponsible.

[aikoaiko]

216. The accident probably would have happened the same way had grandpa been carrying a single shot rifle

If the gun was loaded with no safety, pointed at the teen, and the branch snagged the trigger.

Its a tragedy -- a preventable tragedy had the operator of the gun had been more careful (see Number 2 below).

Its being an AK had very little to do with the accident.

Jeff Cooper's four basic rules of gun safety:<3>
1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that a particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

[benEzra]

279. The outcome would have been no different with a flintlock. (n/t)

[Endangered Specie]

224. THIS is what a hunting legal AK would look like...

note the 5rd mag, no pistol grip, bayonet, would probably have a scope mounted.

[AtheistCrusader]

247. There should be charges filed.

I don't understand the concept of 'no charges filed since it appeared to be an accident'. He was negligent.

Safety off
Round in the chamber
Pointed at another human being

Even if the family declined to press charges, fine, the State should. This man was negligent. This was not an 'accidental discharge', it was a negligent discharge. This man was a danger not only to the rest of his hunting party, but also hikers, campers, other hunting parties, any human out and about in that neck of the woods was in danger from this man.

Society has decided to regulate and punish enough silly, victimless crimes, why not punish blatantly dangerous behavior? I don't want this guy out and about, if I'm out hiking, camping, taking photos, hunting, riding my bike, whatever. He should be held accountable for what he did. This should never have happened.

[rdenney]

254. Good points! Had that been my son, Grandpa would find out what a sharp Gerber can do,......

But thats the redneck state of Texas that we are speaking of where its OK to kill your grandson, in a "mishap" of whatever proportions.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

260. What state are you in, where it's ok to kill

your father or father-in-law? Even in Texas, that might be thought of as "murder".

The accident in Texas will haunt Gramps (and his whole family) for life, whether or not there's any "official" action taken in this.

[AtheistCrusader]

264. Haunting him does nothing

to remind others not to behave in this careless manner.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

265. The poster I responded to claimed vigilante justice ...

deliberate patricide, revenge slice & dice, with brand-name cutlery. Ala Rambo: "Gramps drew first blood, Colonel". And of course, Gerber knives are more deadly than most other brands.

As far as reminding others: Gramps will now be a case study in many "hunter safety" classes. These classes are required in some places before a hunting license can be purchased.

I'm not suggesting that prosecution shouldn't happen. That's up to the local law enforcement. I'm just suggesting that advocating personal revenge violence outside the law may not be the smartest course.

[AtheistCrusader]

267. Sorry.

I was sort of ignoring that other post, and it robbed yours of context. I agree with you.

[pipoman]

274. Exactly why the most outspoken gun control assclowns

are what they are, because they know they can't be trusted with a pocket knife, let alone a gun. They then surmise in their tiny little angry minds that everyone is like them, sort of a twisted narcissism. The pea brain you were attempting to communicate with shows his explosive anger and ill will toward his fellow human every time he puts his fingers to the keys.

[virginia mountainman]

266. Glad your a follower of Sara Brady...

Cause, with a viewpoint like that, YOU, should not be able to own any guns.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

277. You just stated you would murder your father for accidently killing your son.

You are definitely on the wrong message board. Seriously you have problems, you should really go see a psychiatrist, NOW.

David

[Blackeye101]

273. Hunting Acident

After reading over the more than 200 postings to this thread I can only say The family must be grieving and all I have is sympathy for them.

[Thelvyn]

282. Collateral Damage

Those shootings are sad, just like the one where the kid's Grandpa accidently killed him. But the fact of the matter is having a 2nd Amendment means some people are going to die. It's a price worth paying to have the right to self-defense; so they're all collateral damage. Plain and simple. Whether that collateral damage is a 50 year old or a 5 year old, it's worth having the right to own arsenals and having the right to stay alive against criminals.

And the another fact is this: Even if the people who want to ban guns (or ban certain guns) are right and we are wrong, it doesn't matter. Congress won't touch the gun issue with a ten foot pole. Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid want nothing to do with another assault weapon ban. Democrats have learned from their follies in 1994 and they don't want them repeated in 2010. They have also filled their seats with pro-gun Dems, when they took over congress in 2006. Then of course we are about to get an individual ruling from the SCOTUS with in the next week or two. So even if the gun grabbers are right, even if they are morally right, they can't do a darned thing about it. We will be keeping our handguns, we will be keeping our AK-47s, and we will continue to buy them, and that is that. They can continue to draw up all the bills they want, but those bills will not make it out of committe and for sure won't be passed. We, the "gun nuts", have won.

[benedikt15]

283. What was he hunting with an AK47?

National Guardsmen?

[Tejas]

286. It's a scary gun, scares animals to death

and that saves on ammo!

(priced ammo lately?)


:rofl: