Chicago's high murder rate and policy of gun-control: coincidence?

[SteveM]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1240036,CST-NWS-cops24.article

"Chicago, whose population is dwarfed by , posted 426 killings through Tuesday, compared with 417 in New York and 302 in L.A."

This in a city with a virtual ban on firearms. Does this prove that fewer guns mean more murders? No, it only shows that gun bans have not shown a discernible effect on homicides.

The Sun-Times article did not mention Chicago's gun ban, but did reference "timidness" among some police officers who fear lawsuits.

[sasquatch]

1. Is there a Progressive gun rights group in this country BTW?

:shrug:

[Jackpine Radical]

3. If not, we ought to form one.

That's an excellent idea, so that gun owners don't have to think that Republicans are the only ones who don't threaten their guns.

[SteveM]

8. There are some around:

Try: (1) progunprogressive, (2) Blue Steel Democrats, (3) Second Amendment Democrats.

Progunprogressive lists a number of links in the margins which you might wish to survey. I think Blue Steel Democrats (the Oregon Democratic Party's gun caucus, I believe) presents a model of how progressive Democrats can work to change Party policy with regards the Second Amendment. Recently, the Texas Democratic Party has formed a gun caucus.

[aquart]

2. What were the murder numbers BEFORE the ban?

Not to rain on your parade or anything.

[krispos42]

9. I lot of major cities enacted bans about when I was born

NYC I think clamped down in the late 70's, DC in I think '77. The big drop in homicides came in the early 90's. Chicago closed their gun registry... hmmm, early 80's?

[PDJane]

4. I don't think gun control has to do with a higher murder rate.....

Since Ontario and Quebec have a history of strict gun control laws, and have some of the lowest crime rates in North America.

Of course, with typically Canadian viewpoints, it's easy to get a gun in Toronto. It's hard to get ammunition for it once you have it though.......can be up to $10.00 per round!

[iverglas]

14. uh

It's hard to get ammunition for it once you have it though.......can be up to $10.00 per round!

Black market, that?

Glad to hear it, if so.

[PDJane]

18. Yeah, black market n/t

[Codename46]

48. Switzerland has low gun crime as well...

...despite having it's private citizens who are members of the militia own full-auto assault rifles.

[frazzled]

5. The Indiana border is ten minutes away from the south side of Chicago

You could get on the bus or drive to Hammond, East Chicago, Whiting, etc. and get a gun in mere minutes. So the ban is a losing battle here. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it harder--it's just that border state cities have a particularly difficult time with this.

[jody]

6. What works in Cheyenne, homicide rate of 3.5/100k, will work in Chicago, homicide rate 15+/100k and

D.C., homicide rate 29+/100k.

At least victims would have a fighting chance against violent criminals.

National homicide rate was about 6/100k in 2006.

[iverglas]

15. perhaps jody can give us a run down

At least victims would have a fighting chance against violent criminals.

Which victims - exactly - in the total count would you identify as having been (more) likely to survive had s/he had a firearm?

Of course, you might first want to identify those who did not have a firearm ...

[spin]

21. Any victim armed with a firearm would have a better chance...

of surviving a violent encounter. A well trained and competent individual might even have a excellent chance.

[iverglas]

23. bzzt

You lose.

[spin]

26. Let me pose two scenarios...

1) You are in your bedroom late at night and you wake up when you hear your alarm system blaring. You turn on your bedside table lamp and reach for your telephone to call the police. You find it doesn't work. Perhaps an intruder has cut your phone lines. You remember that you have a cell phone, but unfortunately you left it in your purse in the living room.

You wait in fear and you hear footsteps coming down the hallway.

The intruder breaks down your bedroom door. As he enters you notice he has a firearm in his right hand.

You have no weapon so you plead for mercy and tell the intruder that you will give him anything he wants.

He smiles at you in an evil way.

**********************************************

2) You are in your bedroom late at night and you wake up when you hear your alarm system blaring. You turn on your bedside table lamp and reach for your telephone to call the police. You find it doesn't work. Perhaps an intruder has cut your phone lines. You remember that you have a cell phone, but unfortunately you left it in your purse in the living room.

You slide open the top drawer on your bedside table and punch your combination into the drawer gun safe, open it and retrieve your S&W .38 caliber revolver. You roll off the bed and crouch behind the bed facing the bedroom door with your weapon pointed at the door.

You hear footsteps coming down the hallway The intruder breaks down the door.

As he enters and looks around the room. You make sure that he is not your husband. You notice he has a firearm in his right hand. He notices you behind the bed and smiles in an evil way.

You pull the trigger on your weapon several times. He falls.

Which scenario would you chose?

Come back.

[jeepnstein]

27. Interesting.

What difference does it make if the phone works or not? Unless you live across the street from an all-night doughnut shop it's going to take maybe five minutes for the police to arrive. I suppose you could hand the phone the the intruder and have the dispatcher keep him on the line until the police arrive. Yeah, that would work.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

[spin]

32. Many self defense experts recommend that you keep a cell phone...

in your bedroom in case your phone lines are cut by an intruder.

It's like the police calling for backup when in a bad situation. True, it might take a while for the police to arrive. But it's nice to know that help is on the way. While you wait, you are on your own. If absolutely necessary you use your firearm to stop the intruder and when the police arrive let them investigate the incident.

You reminded me of an old urban legend I once heard.

A man noticed a prowler in his yard and called 911. He waited twenty minutes and when no police arrived he called again. Ten minutes later there still was no response. He noticed the prowler was still there.

So he called again and said, "You know that prowler I called about. Don't worry, I just shot him."

Five minutes later there was a police helicopter hovering over his house and three police cruisers were parked in in his driveway. The prowler was arrested, but the police were not happy.

[iverglas]

29. try this one (added)

You are a kid coming home from school on the subway.

Somebody shoots you.

You're dead.


Liking that one?


That one, btw, is a true story.

Yours is a gun militant's fantasy.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/22/eveningnews/main4036098.shtml

CHICAGO, April 22, 2008

Public school students in Chicago aren't as worried about making the grade as they are about making it home alive, CBS News correspondent Cynthia Bowers reports.
"You can't go nowhere without being shot," said Juston Gant. "It's crazy."

Since September, 24 students have been murdered, most of them shot.

The dead amount to a classroom of kids. Among them, 10-year-old Arthur Jones, who was on his way to buy candy when he got caught in gang crossfire. As did 15-year-old Miguel Pedro, who went out for ice cream and never came back.

Last school year 34 students were killed. That's 58 deaths over what amounts to a 17-month period. And that makes an average of one child getting murdered every eight days.

These are the true stories, and this is what no gun militant will ever admit.

[spin]

33. I'm not surprised that you didn't choose a senario...

but instead chose to state that they were merely a "gun militant's" fantasy. If you think that I'm a gun militant, fine. I prefer to refer to myself as a gun enthusiast. I suppose that's the politically correct term for gun nut.

While I have no real problem with your terminology describing gun owners who advocate and own firearms for self defense, I will take issue with the fantasy part. Guns have been used by honest citizens to deter crime. Women are just as capable of defending themselves with firearms as men.

So let's look a just a few news stories:

Gun-Toting Mom-To-Be Scares Off Intruders

MURFEESBORO, Tenn. - A pistol-packing pregnant Rutherford County woman scared off two intruders at her home.

Kristen Holbert, 18, credits her hormones and instinct for saving herself and her unborn child. Holbert is due in August.

http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=8445177

Or you might watch this video clip caught by security cameras of an attempted home invasion which fortunately failed. Note how the bad guys cut the phone lines. Also note the better weapon the woman purchased for home protection after this incident. I bet a new Assault Weapons ban would prohibit her from buying this weapon.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/08/07/home-invasion-and-the-importantance-of-firearms-video-clip/

Perhaps you would be interested in the audio tape of a 911 call by a woman who had a stalker break into her house and retreated to her bedroom with a firearm. (This is very similar to the scenarios I proposed.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ExC7fE1LaY

But you might argue that since this tape appeared on YouTube and was not part of a news broadcast, it could easily be faked. So I'll back it up with the newspaper story of the incident.

HAMMOND | A Hessville woman will not be charged in the shooting death of a man accused of breaking into her home in November and stalking her.

Lake County Prosecutor Bernard Carter said on Wednesday he was turning down any charges against the woman in the death of Ryan Lee Bergner, 41, considering her actions to be in self-defense and defense of property.

The Nov. 12 shooting of Bergner as he cornered the 51-year-old woman in an upstairs bedroom closet capped a month of escalating terror -- chronicled in a series of police reports filed by the woman -- which included break-ins, vandalism and assaults in her workplace.

************snip**************

Police found her in her front yard when they arrived moments later, and found Bergner, wearing black leather gloves and a brown leather jacket, lying partially in the bedroom closet with three bullet wounds to his abdomen, a 9 mm pistol on the bed nearby.

"That tape is absolutely chilling," said Hammond Police Chief Brian Miller, who worked for years as a detective with the department's sex crimes division.

Miller said he is regularly asked to speak at meetings of women's organizations and support groups for victims of domestic violence, and in the future will be taking the recording along with him as an example of what can happen.
http://nwi.com/articles/2008/01/10/news/lake_county/docc6e7d1ca7dcd2fee862573cc00081d1f.txt

note: I would have used the link from the news article, but I couldn't get it to play correctly

**************************************************************************************************************************************************

In your reply you choose to bring up some tragic incidents involving public school students in Chicago. That's fair.

Public school students in Chicago aren't as worried about making the grade as they are about making it home alive, CBS News correspondent Cynthia Bowers reports.
"You can't go nowhere without being shot," said Juston Gant. "It's crazy."

Since September, 24 students have been murdered, most of them shot.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/22/eveningnews/main4036098.shtml

I have several comments about this story.

1) At the end of your reply you said These are the true stories, and this is what no gun militant will ever admit. If I correctly interpret the gist of your reply you consider me a "gun militant". I have no problem with the truth of your stories and admitting that such events too often happen.

2) Let me say that anytime a child is murdered or killed by a firearm accidentally or on purpose or it disturbs me. Young children and guns should be kept separate.It's also totally unexceptionable when children are caught in a crossfire between rival gangs or accidentally shot by a stray bullet. We must ensure the safety of children...period!!!

3)]Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. And Illinois, the state Chicago is in, also has very strict gun laws.

Some municipalities, most notably Chicago, require that all firearms be registered with the local police department.<59> Chicago does not allow the registration of handguns, which has the effect of outlawing their possession, unless they were grandfathered in by being registered before April 16, 1982.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_By_State_In_The_United_States

4) Chicago has recently achieved the dubious distinction of being the murder capitol of the United States.

CHICAGO (CBS) ― Chicago is the Second City in nickname and the third in population, but when it comes to murder, the city has the dubious distinction of being second to no city in America.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/chicago.homicide.rate.2.847736.html

5) Answer me this. With all these great gun control laws, why is the homicide rate so high in Chicago? Why are school children worried about making it home alive?

Perhaps the answer is not to try to come up with new gun control laws for honest citizens who own firearms as all this accomplishes is restricting the weapons they can own. Since the great majority of honest citizens rarely commit violent crime, draconian gun guns accomplish little.

Maybe the answer is trying to get illegal guns out of the hands of criminals. Oddly enough criminals commit most crime. Armed criminals often are responsible for the most serious violent crimes. If gun control was focused on taking illegal criminal guns and the criminals that use them off the street, we might see a decrease in homicide rates and other gun related crimes.

"Bull crap", you will say. Just another stupid uninformed idea from a gun militant hoping to hang on to his precious weapons.

Well examine this news story:

Despite an increased emphasis on seizing illegal firearms, Baltimore police have taken about 25 percent fewer guns off the street this year and are making fewer gun arrests.

City law enforcement officials said they were unsure how to account for the decline, which has police on pace to recover far fewer illegal guns than in previous years, but were in agreement that it's probably not because there are significantly fewer guns on the streets. Instead, they said it is more likely that criminals are getting the message not to carry guns in public, which could be a factor in this year's drops in homicides and nonfatal shootings. italics mine
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-firearm1003,0,1014429.story

Note: I would have replied to you sooner, but my computer kept getting hijacked by my two grandsons and one of their friends who wanted to use it for homework and science projects.

[Tejas]

35. Not surprised either, antis live in a "projection-world"

Where would they be without horrid thoughts about toddlers being blown away with a 50 caliber?

[iverglas]

45. I know! I know!

Where would they be without horrid thoughts about toddlers being blown away with a 50 caliber?

On Planet Gun Militant ... where straw people walk and talk.

[gorfle]

40. I admit them.

I don't know if I'm a "gun militant" or not, but I certainly have no problem admitting that those are true stories.

Gang violence is tragic, but is no excuse to disarm everyone.

[jeepnstein]

44. Most of it's gang related.

It's a shame Chicago is afraid to drain the swamp of the gangs and drug dealers who are responsible for most of the killing. Just look at the scum bag that killed Jennifer Hudson's family. How about passing a law against going around dealing crack and having a firearm while on parole? Oh, wait a minute, that is against the law but the courts see fit to do nothing.

Poor people deserve a safe community, too. How would you propose to guarantee their safety in your Utopian ivory tower? Would you just prefer to leave them at the mercy of predators since you aren't a witness to the suffering? Do you offer a solution or are you just in this to show everyone your moral superiority?

That's what I thought.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. Woman kills attacker when he attempts rape 2nd time in less than a week.

Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

An intended rape victim shot and killed her attacker this morning in Cape Girardeau when he broke into her home to rape her a second time, police said.

The 57-year-old woman shot Ronnie W. Preyer, 47, a registered sex offender, in the chest with a shotgun when he broke through her locked basement door.

The woman told police he was the same man who raped her several days earlier. Officials do not intend to seek charges against her.




She tried to call 911, but couldn't because the power was off. She got a shotgun and waited as the man began banging on the basement door. She fired when Preyer came crashing through the door. When Preyer collapsed, the woman escaped and went to a neighbor's home, where she called police. Officers, who arrived within a minute, found a bleeding Preyer stumbling away from the house. He was taken to St. Francis Medical Center, where he died several hours later

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C58494B45470714862574F3006D0CA6?OpenDocument

I think this woman might disagree with you Iverglas. She didn't even need a man to save her, aren't you proud of her?


David

[JonQ]

49. Do you think they'd have a better shot of defending themselves

if they were unarmed?

Owning a gun doesn't guarantee safety, obviously, but if gives you a chance. I fail to see how not owning a gun would give you a better chance.

[gorfle]

39. Ding!

You win.

[iverglas]

42. aha!

"ANY VICTIM".

You know as well as the rest of the world knows that the statement is flat out untrue.

And yet you pretend to think otherwise.

What disorder is it, exactly, that drives people to do this?

[gorfle]

43. I dunno?

What disorder is it, exactly, that drives people to do this?

Probably the same disorder that drives people to assume that the extreme position invalidates the rest of the positions.

OK, so not every victim would be better off with a firearm.

Instead, nearly every victim would be better off with a firearm.

Happy now? Of course not. You'd prefer that no victim have a firearm. Aren't the extremes fun?

[Tejas]

19. homicide rate of 0/100k at

gunshows.

Imagine that.

[ieoeja]

46. The problem is that the Lynch Law was not inherently racist.

Nowhere was it ever written into law that White people had the right to lynch Black people they believed guilty of a crime. The law was that PEOPLE had the right to lynch PEOPLE they believed guilty of a crime. Blacks had the exact same "legal" right to lynch Whites that Whites had to lynch Blacks.

I assume we can all agree how badly THAT would have worked out for a bunch of Black men lynching the White rapist?

We have much the same problem with self defense. A few years ago a White man in Wilmette (super-wealthy suburb of Chicago) killed a home intruder. The man was hailed a hero and became a rallying point for pro-gun people in Chicagoland.

Less than two weeks later a middle class, Black man killed a home intruder on the southside of Chicago. "Probably gang related; must have been a drug deal gone wrong," was Chicagoland's response. The same pro-gun people hailing the White hero were completely silent concerning the Black hero.

Bottom line: what works for White people in Cheyenne might very well work for White people in Chicago, but it sure as fuck will not work for Black people in Chicago.

[tech3149]

7. Pretty much no correlation at all.

I've lived and worked in some pretty tough neighborhoods, and I see one common factor in gun/violent crimes. That's the economy! If people can make a reasonable living they don't generally do violence to others. There may be sociopaths and psychopaths out there who will harm others for no discernible reason, but they are few and far between and probably distributed evenly by any demographic breakdown.

As posted in another response, there are significant examples of areas with stringent gun control policies that do not have an inverse level of gun violence.

[sharesunited]

10. Guns coming in from downstate IL and red state IN. We need strict national gun control policy.

That includes reducing manufacture and importation of weapons and ammunition.

That includes closing down joe sixpack retail sale.

You know how morphine is strictly controlled? Like dat!

[jody]

11. Then why don't "downstate IL and red state IN" have homicide rates comparable to Chicago? Is the

answer that "downstate IL and red state IN" have populations willing to earn their daily bread the old fashioned way -- by work -- rather than the Chicago way by crime?

[benEzra]

12. "You know how morphine is strictly controlled? Like dat!"

Well, it sure has worked for pot, cocaine, and narcotics, which are completely unobtainable in Chicago...

:sarcasm:

What happens when criminals smuggle in guns disguised as routine cocaine shipments?

[Indy Lurker]

13. Most of the country does not want strict national gun control policy

It could also be said that most of the country does not need strict national gun control policy.

Even within Illinois, most do not feel the need for strict gun control.

Recently in both Rockford (Winnebago County) and Belvidere (Boone County)law enforcement officers spoke in favor of allowing concealed carry for the citizens of their respective counties. The idea of stricter gun control would never fly.

The idea of national laws to solve local problems seems inappropriate.

I assume you mean private sales when you refer to joe sixpack.

While Illinois does not require a background check for private sales, it does require all parties to have a FOID card. To get a FOID card, you must get a background check. FOID cards are good for 5 years.

[jody]

16. “Illinois lawmakers: ruling to make it tougher to pass gun restrictions” (June 26, 2008)

Illinois lawmakers: ruling to make it tougher to pass gun restrictions

As a Chicago legislator, Gov. Rod Blagojevich once famously made an unsuccessful push to increase the fee for a Firearm Owner’s Identification Card to $500. As a candidate for governor, he was forced to make amends to rural voters and now, in his second term in office, Blagojevich has failed to use the power of his office to advance major gun control measures.

Daley's repeated gun control efforts have repeatedly been rebuffed by rural Downstate lawmakers joining with their suburban colleagues. But the voting is hardly along partisan lines, particularly with more socially moderate Democrats winning seats in what had been solid Republican suburbs and socially conservative Democrats representing some Downstate areas.

Barack Obama, a gun-control supporter, backed a 2004 measure backed by gun rights groups to allow retired law-enforcement officers to carry concealed firearms. Obama, a gun-control advocate, backed the measure shortly after winning the Democratic U.S. Senate nomination to try to appeal to central and southern Illinois voters.

The legislature’s actions largely symbolize the belief among many rank-and-file lawmakers that gun-owner rights groups represent a more dedicated bloc of voters than gun-control advocates.

[spin]

22. Gun owners often have a considerable amount of money

invested in their gun collection. Many are interested in purchasing new firearms to replace or add to their collection. Most voters who are anti-gun have little or no money invested in firearms.

Of course not all gun owners have collections. Some merely own a firearm for self protection. They believe that the firearm they own may at sometime save their life. They also believe that in the United States they have a Constitutional right to own that firearm.

Others own a firearm for target shooting or hunting. They enjoy shooing as a hobby or a sport. They suspect that the gun control efforts will eventually escalate to confiscation as it has in many countries.

So they get out to the polls and vote!

Therefore the statement in the article you referenced:

The legislature’s actions largely symbolize the belief among many rank-and-file lawmakers that gun-owner rights groups represent a more dedicated bloc of voters than gun-control advocates. http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2008/06/illinois-lawmak.html

is indeed accurate.

[jody]

30. Many of my gun owner friends have lots of guns but little money. If they do they are waiting to buy

another gun.

Just a touch of humor remark re "Gun owners often have a considerable amount of money." :hi:

[spin]

34. Well I resemble that remark...

now that I've retired and my 401K is rapidly becoming a 101K, I started to collect knives rather than firearms. If you don't buy the custom makers products, they are a lot less expensive than firearms.

[jeepnstein]

17. Brilliant!

Maybe we should just pass a law against killing a person? I have no doubt if we could come up with a killing ban that Chicago would be in much better shape.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

25. but here's the real question

Maybe we should just pass a law against killing a person?

Maybe you should just repeal the laws against killing people?

After all, they obviously don't work.

[jeepnstein]

28. I'm not too sure about that one.

Most of the criminals I've known aren't really geared towards murder. It could very well be that humans just don't like killing other humans that much until they are taught to like it. Once you get a criminal with a taste for killing, though, you really need a tool to get them off the street. The murder statute is a good way to get a killer out of polite society. You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that getting a murderer off the streets was a bad idea.

Do you play the piano? I think everyone should only be allowed to own upright pianos. Grands only belong in the hands of licensed orchestras. Civilians can't play well enough to justify having a grand piano in their homes. Anyone who wants one should be locked up and have their head examined. I knew a guy with a grand piano once, and he was a real nut job.

[iverglas]

31. need any ice

with that? Or are you drinking it neat?

[spin]

20. The really smart criminal would move to Chicago...

the tougher the gun laws for honest citizens the better for the criminal. And timid police officers would be a big plus.

[old mark]

36. Or DC or Philly or NYC - Areas with liberal gun laws - that is, many gun owners-

have lower crime rates. It is a fact the gun control folks won't believe, and don't want you to know, yet there was a study by the FBI that came to that conclusion done in the 1990's and ignored by the anti's.

Cell phones are a great idea, but the reaction time till the police get to your home averages 20 minutes - will the bad guy wait for them?
Will your family still be alive?


mark

[jal777]

37. Chicago is a paradise for a criminal...........

no worries about getting shot at by victims. Easy targets.

[gorfle]

38. For the 1000th time.

Chicago's high murder rate is a direct result of the terrible socio-economic conditions in Chicago!

Chicago, like many urban cities, is RIFE with gang and/or drug warfare.

This is not a hardware problem. This is a social problem.

If you legalized drugs and had free health care for addicts this problem would disappear.

[slackmaster]

41. Yup, trying to treat the problem with gun control is just window dressing

It's purely political, so the elected "leaders" of the city can say they are "doing something" about it, and then blame the failure of gun control to even control guns on forces beyond their control (e.g. the availability of guns outside of the city; a few corrupt gun dealers who facilitate straw purchasers, the gun lobby, Ted Nugent, etc. etc.).