In addition to helping criminals/psychos obtain guns, the NRA is now smearing Obama

[brentspeak]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2008/11/post_112.html

NRA Runs Anti-Obama Ads in Va
Anita Kumar

...

Two days before Tuesday's historic election, the NRA is running full-page ads in some Virginia newspapers listing eight reasons to vote against the Democratic pesidential nominee under the banner "Can Obama be Trusted to Protect Your Gun Rights? You Decide."

The NRA, based in Fairfax County, contacted some newspapers in Virginia and other battleground states about wrapping their newspapers Tuesday in plastic bags that would read: "Vote for Freedom... Defeat Obama." Two of the state's biggest newspapers, the Virginian-Pilot and Richmond Times-Dispatch, declined the ads.

The NRA endorsed Republican presidential nominee John McCain. The group's political action committee created an anti-Obama Website that says he "would be the most anti-gun president in American history."

"In his many trips to the Commonwealth, Sen. Obama has spoken directly to Virginians about his unequivocal support for Second Amendment rights,'' said Clark Stevens, a spokesman for Obama in Virginia. "Once again the NRA is launching last minute, false attacks -- something that Virginia voters have come to expect every election cycle."

[fascisthunter]

1. NRA=Helping Gun Manufacturers Make a Killing

[billybob537]

2. The NRA is just the lobby for

gun manufacturers and ammo producers. Don't expect them to have a conscience.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/westfield_police_release_name.html

[bossy22]

6. they also lobby on behalf of

4 million members

[fascisthunter]

13. 4 million idiots

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

16. They seem to be effective.

I really can't think of a more effective lobbying group. Seems like they do a pretty good job protecting their interests.

David

[Hangingon]

42. NRA members are not all idiots.

Many of us disagree with some of the NRA's actions, but they have many good programs. The NRA offers firearms safety and hunter safety courses, safe shooting competitions and many otherworth while programs. By the way, membership is growing.

[rl6214]

54. As opposed to

the 4 million of you that don't own guns? A recent poll showed that 50% of DUers owned firearms.

[tburnsten]

20. No they aren't

The National Shooting Sports Foundation is. The NRA is the lobby for the eighty million gun owners in the U.S. indirectly, and the four to five million current members directly. Do just a tiny bit of research, please, before you post.

[pipoman]

24. And your link has exactly what to do with the NRA???

[jamesb2004]

3. The more criminals the NRA gives guns to...

the more the average person (incorrectly) feels they need a gun. It's a vicious cycle that results in the Repukes getting rich and the people getting dead.

[bossy22]

5. The equal force notion is not always the general rule

to defensive gun ownership. I dont own a gun mainly to protect myself from an armed criminal, but an unarmed criminal. If statistics are correct, most criminals are unarmed which would give me the upper hand....and when im being attacked i prefer to have the upper hand

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. The NRA has supported laws keeping felons from possessing firearms.

If you have some proof of your assertion, I'm sure many here would like to see it.


David

[Hangingon]

43. What criminal has the NRA armed?

I missed it if it was in the press.

[SteveM]

64. Your comments are like calling someone "godless," "communist." Worthless (nt)

[bossy22]

4. NRA helps criminals and psychos obtain guns

just like the ACLU helps terrorists and murderers walk free

The NRA is a special interest group that lobbies to protect second amendment rights of americans just like the ACLU is a special interest group which lobbies to protect the civil rights of all americans (which should include the second but their leadership is still behind the times)

though through their actions they may inadvertently help criminals get guns (the NRA that is)...that is not their intended goal.

There are also many dangerous, violent individuals who were in reality guilty of heinous crimes- who walk the streets indirectly due to the work the ACLU does

[brentspeak]

7. My thread is about the NRA, not the ACLU

Stick to the subject: the NRA is a gun manufacturers' lobby that stupidly claims it somehow knows and represents what the second amendment really stands for. The NRA is also the organization that is actively working against the Democratic candidate for President, Barack Obama.

Since this is a site for Democratic supporters, your defense of the NRA kind of puts you in a weird position, don't it?

[bossy22]

8. my position is far from weird

i was merely using the ACLU as a metaphor (though they are related so it makes it more like a synonym...awww who knows) for your characterization of the NRA
so i was sticking on topic

I will not disagree with you that the NRA lobbies on behalf of the manufactures but it also lobbies on the behalf of its 4 million members.

Though im not a fan of their political alignings (such as working against barack obama) it does not mean i dont appreciate some of what they do. As a fellow DU member once and many times said "the NRA is the 800 lb Gorilla in the room protecting my rights". I have a feeling that without the NRA (or any highly organized gun rights group) my second amendment rights would be nothing but a sentence in a history book

There is no arguement that the NRA supports a greater number of republicans than democrats- i wish it was the other way around (but lucky for us the tide is turning in our favor....in 2006 the NRA doubled in contribution amount to democratic candidates)...but that is due to republicans have traditionally been sympathetic to their cause and democrtas have been hostile

Let there be no mistake that i am voting for Barack Obama but i understand where the NRA is coming from. They are a single interest group- that interest is the second amendment. And if that is the only light in which you judge these two candidates- then the choice has to be John McCain. Thats why they are fighting against obama

SO i defend the NRA because i find that many times there is a flawed understand to their methods. PEople often forget they are just another single issue group and a single issue group just focuses on one single issue

SO i do not blame them for working against obama- infact i think that it is the "correct" course of action for them and that if i was in their shoes i'd probably do the same

[spin]

9. Many members of DU own firearms...

and many support the Second Amendment.

Many Democrats also own firearms and support the Second Amendment.

I don't know of a requirement that states DU members or Democrats have to support draconian gun laws.

The NRA rates politicians based on their support for gun rights. Some Democratic politicians receive high ratings form the NRA. For example Gov. Bill Richardson, who ran in the primaries for the Democratic candidate for President.

True, the NRA has been rated as the most most powerful lobbying organization in the country, but they do far more than lobby for gun manufacturers.

You state:

the NRA is a gun manufacturers' lobby that stupidly claims it somehow knows and represents what the second amendment really stands for.

That's your opinion. My opinion, and the opinion of many other Democrats differs from yours.

True the NRA gives Obama a very low rating, but that didn't stop me from voting for him.

[beevul]

10. Your thread...

Your thread has the title "In addition to helping criminals/psychos obtain guns, the NRA is now smearing Obama".


The piece you linked to says nothing about the nra helping criminals or psychos obtain guns, so it must be that the statement made by you is simply an assertion, and an unproven one at that. Prove it.

The piece you linked to, also says nothing about "smears" against Obama. It DOES say that the nra is running anti-Obama ads. If...I repeat, IF, those ads contain truth, then there is no smear. So lets see the smears already. One can not be "smeared" by truth.

I'm no nra member, and have not been for 20-ish years, however I know something of Obamas voting record and past history on the issue of guns - and I'll be voting for him in spite of it...But I very much doubt that the nra would have to smear Obama, because his voting record on the gun issue speaks for itself.




I have about as much sympathy for anyone that votes poorly on the gun issue and gets taken to task on it, as I do for any fool that deliberately provokes a rattlesnake.


Read: self inflicted.

"Since this is a site for Democratic supporters, your defense of the NRA kind of puts you in a weird position, don't it?"

And I thought dissent was a Democratic ideal. Silly me. Remember your statement next time you send money to the republicans at the brady campaign, wont you?

"I support the Brady Campaign" - Brentspeak.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3069726#3069950

Yes, the brady bunch was created by republicans, and the chose a republican - paul helmke - as its current president. That kind of puts you in an odd position to question anyone elses bonafides, don't it? I mean...like you say, this is a site for Democratic supporters, right?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Excellent response, I'm guessing it will go unanswered.

[brentspeak]

26. You guessed wrong.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. No my post worked exactly as intended.

Thanks.

David

[brentspeak]

25. The "Republicans" you speak of - and deride - support Obama more than you do:

And, funny - the "Bradys are Republicans" meme has been an gun-lobby-advised PR talking point for when gun toadies (who don't represent all gun owners) ply their propaganda on progressive boards.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-helmke/jim-and-sarah-brady-brady_b_134096.html

Jim And Sarah Brady, Brady Campaign Endorse Barack Obama And Joe Biden

by Paul Helmke

Senators Barack Obama and Joseph Biden know that we make it too easy for dangerous people to get dangerous weapons in this country. They know that our weak gun laws have too many loopholes, which lead to over 30,000 deaths and 70,000 injuries from guns every year.

Senators Obama and Biden know that we can reduce those deaths and injuries from guns by strengthening our Brady background check system, getting military-style assault weapons off our streets, and giving law enforcement more tools to stop the trafficking of illegal guns.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Noticed you still failed to produce any evidence of the smear.

[brentspeak]

31. What part of "Obama would be the most anti-gun president in U.S. history"

didn't you understand? What would you consider this?

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=4221

We've repeatedly warned readers not to believe Barack Obama when he claims to support our Second Amendment rights. We have told you the truth--that Barack Obama is the most anti-gun presidential candidate in American history! Hands down. No question. Barack Obama opposes the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding, freedom-loving, American firearm owners.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. I would call that what you should have posted initially.

Much better evidence than your OP. Now can you provide some evidence of the NRA wanting more criminals armed?

David

[beevul]

35. Thats a smear?

If thats a smear, it should be a simple task to show one...just one...president that was MORE anti-gun...you know, in the voting record department.

Thats what you have failed to do, thus far, and what must exist for that to be a smear.

I do not know of a single president, in the history of this country, that had a voting record as anti-gun, as Obamas is.

And I say that as a gun owner who holds the issue as important, that will be voting for the man in less than 48 hours.

Heres his voting record on guns:

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm


If thats not an anti-gun voting record, what is?

[tburnsten]

72. It isn't a smear, it is a recognition of his voting record

And statements he has made. Going strictly by his voting record and statements he has made that ring truer than a few lines of campaign speech, he is the most anti-gun president we have ever had. Hopefully his past record can be left behind now that he is in office, there are too many important things to do for congress to be wasting time screwing with gun rights. Only time will tell if he is prudent enough to leave gun issues alone though.

[beevul]

36. You have got to be kidding.

"The "Republicans" you speak of - and deride - support Obama more than you do"

Why do you suppose they support him? Because hes a Democrat? Of course not.

They support him, because they believe that he supports thier agenda.

"And, funny - the "Bradys are Republicans" meme has been an gun-lobby-advised PR talking point for when gun toadies (who don't represent all gun owners) ply their propaganda on progressive boards."

Meme? Gun lobby advised? Talking point? Rofl...Propaganda?

Jim and Sara brady worked for raygun...thier history and party affiliations are well known.

And hey, they even chose a republican to lead thier org...just an accident, I'm sure:

Try this - Its the TRUTH:

Political career
Helmke defeated Democratic incumbent Mayor Winfield C. Moses, Jr. in 1987. Helmke won re-election in 1991 and 1995. He did not seek re-election in 1999.

In 1980, Helmke ran in the Republican primary for the then Fourth Congressional District open seat in Indiana to replace Dan Quayle who was running for U.S.Senate; he was defeated by Dan Coats, who later went on to serve as U.S. Senator from Indiana and as the U.S. Ambassador to Germany. In 1998, he won the Republican primary for the U.S. Senate to replace retiring incumbent Republican Dan Coats, but lost to Democrat Evan Bayh in the general election. In 2002, Helmke unsuccessfully challenged incumbent U.S. Representative Mark Souder in the Republican primary for the Third Congressional District in Indiana.


Family politics
His father, Walter P. Helmke, had been elected as an Indiana state senator and county prosecutor. The senior Helmke was the Republican nominee for U.S. Congress in Indiana's Fourth District in 1974. Mayor Helmke's grandfather, Walter E. Helmke, had also served as Allen County Prosecutor and had been the Allen County Republican County Chairman. Walter E. Helmke was also one of the leading candidates for the Republican nomination for Governor of Indiana in 1948 but was defeated at his party's state convention. Walter E. Helmke also has the Indiana University-Purdue University Fort Wayne main research facility building named after him.

Mayor Helmke's brother, Mark, has served as Press Secretary to U.S. Senator Richard Lugar, as a Washington lobbyist, and as a staff of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mark Helmke is a former reporter for the Fort Wayne News-Sentinel.


After political office
In 2001, after stepping aside from as mayor, Helmke co-wrote a book Son of a Son of a Politician <1>, discussing not only his experiences with politics but also that of his father and grandfather. In May 2006 Helmke was named President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Before accepting a position with the Brady Campaign, Helmke worked at his father's law firm, Helmke Beams, LLP. In the wake of the Virginia Tech Massacre in April 2007, Helmke made many network appearances on such programs as the CBS Evening News and ABC World News, fielding questions on gun control.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Helmke\

Helmke was President of the United States Conference of Mayors in 1997-1998 and served on the Board of the National League of Cities. He is a past-President of the Indiana Association of Cities and Towns and the national Republican Mayors and Local Officials organization. Helmke was the Republican nominee for the United States Senate in Indiana in 1998.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-helmke

Paul Helmke
AKA Walter Paul Helmke, Jr.

Born: 24-Nov-1948
Birthplace: Bloomington, IN


Gender: Male
Race or Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Straight
Occupation: Politician
Party Affiliation: Republican

Nationality: United States
Executive summary: Mayor of Fort Wayne, IN, 1988-2000

Father: Walter P. Helmke (Indiana state senator)
Brother: Mark Helmke (lobbyist)
Wife: Deborah Andrews (teacher, two daughters)


High School: North Side High School, Fort Wayne, IN
University: BA, Indiana University
Law School: JD, Yale Law School


Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence President (2006-)
Barnes & Thornburg
Helmke Beams LLP
Mayor of Fort Wayne, IN (1988-2000)
Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity


http://www.nndb.com/people/436/000173914/

For one side's perspective on this issue, we turned to Paul Helmke, a Republican who is the former mayor of Fort Wayne, Indiana, former president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, and President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a pro-gun control group.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/04/20/couricandco/entry2709838.shtml

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence -- formerly Handgun Control -- has tapped a Republican to lead its organization.

The Republican in question -- okay, so he's a moderate Republican -- is Paul Helmke , the former three-term mayor of Fort Wayne, Ind.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/03/AR2006050302402.html

Helmke to speak at Conservative Breakfast Club

Posted on October 8th, 2008 by admin

Fred Rost has arranged for Paul Helmke, the three-term former republican Mayor of Fort Wayne, and former president of The United States Conference of Mayors to address the CBC this Monday, October 13th.

Helmke will address the CBC with his thoughts on national, state, and local politics, and the future of the Republican Party.

When: October 13th 7:30 a.m breakfast
Where: The Window Garden Restaurant 13th Floor - One Summit Square

http://www.conservativebreakfastclub.com/



Saying the things you said, just doesn't make those things true - including the whole "Republicans" you speak of - and deride - support Obama more than you do" schtick:


Helmke says he’s not ready to commit his vote to Obama. He does say, he often votes a split ticket, and when he does vote for a democrat, he says he rarely makes that public. This is the first time Helmke has been in his new role during a Presidential election, and he feels like he's being pulled in a couple of different directions.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27345695/


My vote IS committed to Obama, in spite of his voting record, whereas mr helmke, whom you appear to hold in such high regard, is not ready to "commit his vote to Obama".


I guess supporting republicans is something that...some people get a free pass on, hereabouts. I mean, if a pro-gun poster were touting the merits of a pro-gun republican here on DU, well, we'd be tombstoned immediately. And yet other republicans not so pro-gun are tolerated...no...SUPPORTED, and its just fine and dandy - if they are anti-gun.

[SteveM]

66. More errors: The Bradys and Helmke are GOP. You backin' GOPers? (nt)

[benEzra]

11. The NSSF is the gun manufacturer's lobby; the NRA is the primary gun owner's lobby...

though if the AHSA ever gets straightened out, it might could someday be a less-rhetorical alternative to the NRA.

Personally, I think the NRA's campaign against Obama is idiotic. There are legitimate concerns about Obama's record on guns that I think he needs to address, and yes Biden as VP worries me somewhat, but the NRA's fixation on hunters and skeet shooters, and its over-the-top rhetoric, have blinded it to the real issues here.

80% of gun owners are nonhunters, a third are women, and half are Dems and indies. The NRA should stop scaremongering about "they's gonna takes yer huntin' rifle" and work to educate the candidates about what the real issues are--i.e., that gun owners are primarily concerned about the "assault weapon" fraud and ammunition restrictions---and spend less time on over-the-top rhetoric aimed at "hunters and sportsmen" that only hurts them. The Jim Zumbo incident (which completely blindsided the NRA) should have taught them that, if nothing else.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. Plenty of democrats own guns and are members of the NRA.

I personally don't belong to the NRA but I know plenty of dems that do.

David

[Irreverend IX]

19. The NRA represents its members, not gun manufacturers.

The gun manufacturers' lobby is the National Shooting Sports Foundation, but you don't hear much about it because it's very small, which is because gun manufacturers don't make a whole lot of money. The total yearly revenue for the entire gun industry is something like $2.5 billion, whereas the McDonald's Corporation alone makes more then $12 billion a year. The NRA represents its 4 million dues-paying members and opposes new gun restrictions because that's why people send them money. As such, it's the epitome of a grassroots organization.

And there's no reason not to bring up the ACLU, because preserving civil rights always comes with consequences. If we got rid of the 4th and 5th Amendments it would be a lot easier to put criminals away, but hopefully most people here agree that it's worth letting some guilty people go free so that innocents aren't railroaded into prison. RKBA supporters understand that everyone is responsible for their own personal protection, and that it's better to live with some measure of chaos and violence than to be denied the means of effective self-defense.

[Richard Steele]

22. Bullshit. Dems own guns as often as Repubs do. Get a fricking CLUE.

The NRA is an organization for GUN OWNERS...
it's only come to be associated with Republicanism
because of people like you who blindly swallow
the propaganda that says Democrats are anti-gun.

[brentspeak]

28. So it's me, and not the NRA, who's smearing Obama in favor of McCain

You: "it's only come to be associated with Republicanism because of people like you..."

Duh.

p.s., My thread is about the NRA, not gun owners.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. NRA lobbies for gun owners.

Of course you don't believe that. Yet you produce no evidence of anything contrary. Just an uninformed opinion.

David

[brentspeak]

32. "There's Something About Mary: Unmasking a Gun Lobby Mole"

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/mary-mcfate-sapone-gun-lobby-nra-spy.html

Mary McFate was a prominent gun control activist. Mary Lou Sapone was a freelance spy with an NRA connection. They are the same person. A Mother Jones investigation.

By James Ridgeway, Daniel Schulman, and David Corn

July 30, 2008

Outside the gun control world, Mary Lou Sapone was, as Mother Jones has previously reported, a for-hire operative who spied on citizens' groups for corporate clients. Property and phone records indicate that the two names belong to the same person. Last week, a reporter for Mother Jones called the Sarasota phone number that McFate had given her gun control allies and asked the woman who answered if she was Mary Lou Sapone. "Yes," she responded. But Sapone then refused to answer any questions about Mary McFate or her work for gun control. She quickly hung up—and did not respond to subsequent calls and emails.

During Sapone's ascent through the ranks of the gun control movement, she worked for the NRA, according to a business associate. In a 2003 deposition, Tim Ward, who had been president of the Maryland-based security firm Beckett Brown International, said that the NRA had been "a client" of Sapone's. (As a subcontractor for BBI, Sapone had planted an operative within an environmental group in Lake Charles, Louisiana.) According to Ward, at his request Sapone had introduced BBI to the NRA in early 1999. And that introduction quickly paid off. Billing records obtained by Mother Jones indicate that between May 1999 and April 2000, the NRA paid BBI nearly $80,000 for various services.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. And what exactly is this supposed to prove?

The gun control lobby has resorted to less than honest tactics. They wanted inside information on the gun control lobby. I'm sure the gun control lobby wants inside information on the NRA. I don't see how this proves anything.

David

[krispos42]

38. Or, if could be that gun-makers and gun-owners share common goals

Like, say, keeping guns legal and readily available to the public?



Just a thought.

[Hangingon]

44. I don't see why it would put us in a difficult position.

A poll on DU shows about half own guns.

[DrCory]

47. Not Really...

"Since this is a site for Democratic supporters, your defense of the NRA kind of puts you in a weird position, don't it?"

As the NRA does endorse Democrat candidates. By the way, I'm a Democrat AND member of the NRA. Care to tell me such a thing is not possible?

[aikoaiko]

63. If the ACLU defended the 2nd as well as the others, the NRA would be neutered.

The NRA is working against Obama, but not because he is a Democrat, but because of his positions on gun rights/control.

The NRA is also endorsing US Representative John Barrow (D) over his Republican candidate.

[SteveM]

65. Are we "godless," "communist," "socialist," "not real Americans" yet?(nt)

[krispos42]

80. And why, pray tell, would the NRA in general support Democrats?

Why would the NRA, a gun-rights advocacy group, support the Democrats over the Republicans?



Why would the Violence Policy Center support Republicans over Democrats?





In my opinion the official position of the Democratic Party on guns is wrong. I had the same opinion when the DNC stated that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare". Why should it be rare? If it's safe and legal then the occurances of abortion will depend on external factors, not some artificial limit. Making it "rare" means interfering in the process by erecting legal and practical barriers.

But the party platform eventually changed under pressure from rank-and-file Democrats, and I hope something similar happens with run rights.

[Recursion]

81. Your premise is wrong: NRA is not a gun manufacturers' lobby

It's a gun owners' lobby. The NRA doesn't get it's money from gun manufacturers. Gun manufacturering in this country is a very low-margin, low-profit industry.

[jody]

12. Anita Kumar could have completed her article if she asked Obama's campaign to reply to

each NRA accusation and prove it wrong.

That should be an easy task given the numerous statements Obama has made about his support for the Second Amendment and it would have given Obama's campaign free publicly in an article written by Kumar.

That would allow Obama a forum to clear up any ambiguities about his position on renewing the AWB promised in our Democratic Party Platform and other specifics associated with the natural, inherent, inalienable right to keep and bear arms protected by the Second Amendment of our Constitution.

I note that Obama has taken a clear position opposing Proposition 8 in California that would prohibit same-sex marriages. See "Divisive" video at http://www.noonprop8.com/action/engage-online/videos-1 .

Just think how powerful a video ad would be that said "Obama says NO on Assault Weapons Ban".

There are over 80+ million gun-owners in the U.S. and they would like to know if Obama will sign a bill renewing the AWB.

I seriously doubt there are 40+ million same-sex couples, i.e. 80+ million people, who want to marry.

For the record, I support same-sex marriage. I was just using it as an example of how Obama has taken a clear position on a divisive, polarizing issue given that renewing the AWB is another such issue.

[jody]

40. CORRECTION “Obama Says He Is Against Same-Sex Marriage But Also Against Ending Its Practice In Calif

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/11/obama-on-mtv-i.html

ABC News' Teddy Davis, Sunlen Miller, Tahman Bradley, and Rigel Anderson report: Barack Obama's nuanced position on same-sex marriage is on full display in an MTV interview which is set to air on Monday.

Obama told MTV he believes marriage is "between a man and a woman" and that he is "not in favor of gay marriage."

At the same time, Obama reiterated his opposition to Proposition 8, the California ballot measure which would eliminate a right to same-sex marriage that the state's Supreme Court recently recognized.

"I've stated my opposition to this. I think it's unnecessary," Obama told MTV. "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. The link doesn't even show the ad.

[pipoman]

21. Another thread chock full of stupid shit,

nonsense wives tales and outright lies...too bad the uninformed and ignorant don't spend a little time here in the gungeon before they waste their time and the time of readers with their silly beliefs brewed up in their own narrow minds.

As for the op article, it looks like we shall see if the NRA ends up being chicken littles or visionaries. This election I am rolling the dice and taking Obama at his word that he will protect the second amendment rights of Americans.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. Another drive by posting it seems.

[pipoman]

39. Wtf?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Sorry, It was meant for the OP not for you.

I replied to the wrong post. My sincerest apologies.

David

[pipoman]

45. No problem, and yes I do believe that the OP has bailed on us.

[iverglas]

48. for pity's sake

This must be the new tactic here -- yammering about how someone hasn't posted during the wee small hours of the morning.

The OP posted just after midnight last night (my time). I wonder whether maybe s/he has a job to go to on Monday morning ...

[jody]

49. Reasonable people who are anti-gun don't stay very long when confronted with facts destroying their

unsupported assertions about the natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

Retreat is always an acceptable strategy if a battle cannot be won.

Occasionally one might become pro-choice on RKBA while stating she/he will not obtain a firearm.

Unreasonable anti-gun people might not leave. :shrug:

[brentspeak]

50. What, I'm supposed to be constantly responding to this thread 24 hrs day?

The "It looks like he run away; we must a, duh, won" is a classic cliche posted by NRA-types whenever they gang up to attack people on message boards. Started that way back in the early 90's, still happening today, and I doubt it will ever stop being part of their bizarre posting strategy.

This thread has also demonstrated a lot of other NRA-type message-board behavior, too (I say "NRA-types" - not to be confused with the everyday, normal, NON-bullying gun-owners), such as the inevitable "friendly fire" posts, wherein two partisan gunners, in their rabid zeal and mad rush to crush people who they, for paranoid reasons, consider to be "gun grabbers", mindlessly mistake one-another for "the enemy", and begin feeding on each other like sharks in a small cage-tank made insane by the scent of gore.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. Guess you should bring some facts and some firepower next time.

[pipoman]

59. Yea

Most people who wander through here 'smearing' the NRA don't hang around long. You have proven to be the exception. There are plenty of true statements about the NRA-ILA which would resonate here without smearing and making shit up. You do realize most rational people close their minds on a persons (or groups) statements when they find one or two statements made by that person (or group) to be demonstrable lies. The only people who don't abandon such people or groups are already choir members. BTW you do know that there is a distinct difference between NRA and NRA-ILA?

[brentspeak]

60. I don't know much about the difference between the two

All I know is that the NRA has ridiculous stances on most legal gun issues. The only thing the NRA is apparently good for is their firearms safety programs. I know the NRA has alienated a lot of gun owners with its tactics.

[jody]

68. Please cite one instance where "NRA has ridiculous stances on most legal gun issues".

I oppose all NRA and NRA-ILA partisan political efforts on behalf of the Republican party but IMO we Dems don't help our party lose its gun-grabber image among independent voters by lying about the NRA and NRA-ILA.

[pipoman]

69. And you know this how?

All I know is that the NRA has ridiculous stances on most legal gun issues.

The NRA supported the NFA of 1934 making automatic weapons a special class of weapon requiring much hoop jumping to qualify for ownership which is why automatic weapons are extremely rare in crime. Why did they support it? Because it saves lives and it works. The NRA supported NICS (National Instant Check System) for determining eligibility of gun buyers at the point of sale. Why did they support it? Because it keeps some criminals from obtaining guns without imposing ridiculous restrictions on law abiding citizens. The NRA supports legislation aimed at making the NICS more accurate by requiring state participation. Why? Because it will further enhance NICS and help insure criminals can't get guns through legal means. The NRA opposes assault weapons bans. Why? Because they are drafted and supported by people who don't understand the issue and are thus not effective (see the 1994 AWB). The NRA opposes bans in general because...well...they are not oblivious to 1. the intent of the 2nd Amendment and 2. the history of the effectiveness of prohibitions in general.

All that said, I am not a NRA member. But your statements, "In addition to helping criminals/psychos obtain guns," and "All I know is that the NRA has ridiculous stances on most legal gun issues." are simply not supported by the facts.

"The only thing the NRA is apparently good for is their firearms safety programs."

Which has likely prevented more firearms deaths and firearms injuries than any other organization in the world.

[SteveM]

67. Still supporting "GOP-types?" The GOP Bradys? (nt)

[krispos42]

37. This is the end result of coming from a notoriously anti-gun city

As an elected represetative of anti-gun districts, of course he was anti-gun in the Illinois Senate.

On a national level, I don't believe he's had any opportunity to vote for any anti-gun bill.

And as the holder of a nationwide elected office, I don't think he'll touch the issue.

[rl6214]

46. Yeah well

I am a long time gun owner and I can't stand the NRA

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. Do you think they give firearms to felons?

[rl6214]

56. absolutely not

I just think that, over the years, they have catered to what many have called "the fudds". The old timer, hunting crowd that takes theirhunting rifles out of the closet once a year to put maybe half a dozen rounds through it and then put it back away. The NRA has traditionally ignored the black rifle crowd or those that use their weapons for self defense. They have been of the thought that the 2nd amendmant is for the hunters.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. Interesting take.

[rl6214]

58. I believe GOA

Is much more in tune with the gun owners of today.

[pipoman]

53. Would that be the NRA-ILA, NRA, or both?

Now I don't agree with some of the NRA-ILA lobbying tactics or positions. OTOH there are few...damned few gun owners who haven't benefited at one time or another from the work of the NRA, what with them having trained more safe hunters and shooters, provided more information about guns and shooting, and provided more safe shooting events and venues than any other group in the world.

[rl6214]

55. That's just a foolish statement

The NRA does not help criminals or psychos obtain weapons. They are as much for common sense weapons laws as anybody else. Key term being common sense.

[aikoaiko]

61. Regarding gun rights, Obama has said some very good things, but also some very bad things.

His past support for anti-gun legislation (although politically expedient in for Chicago and Illinois politics) is a problem.

His current support for reauthorizing the AWB is very problematic.

But he does agree with SCOTUS and the Congress that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right -- not a collective right.

He did agree that the DC handgun ban was unconstitutional.

The NRA is exaggerating the negative of Obama's positions on guns.

Ultimately, the NRA is correct that John McCain is better on gun rights (although he has his problems too), than Obama. The NRA would be failing its mission to say otherwise.

Fortunately, there are other good reasons to vote for Obama.

By the way, the NRA endorsed US Representative John Barrow (Democrat) over his Republican opponent. Yeah, NRA!!!

[JonQ]

62. I couldn't find

the list of 8 points of contention. It could be they are true, in which case is it really an attack ad? Obama is certainly not the pro-2nd amendment candidate in this election.

If what they said was true, then they have every right to say it, they're a special interest group concerned with gun ownership, so they have an obligation to go after politicians that are antithetical to their goals.

Of course if they made it up then the NRA would be in the wrong on this one.

[cabluedem]

70. The NRA is working OT to help sell guns by fear mongering about Obama....

gun sales are up all over the place thanks to the NRA's massive efforts to help gun manufacturers sell their bloody toys for the frightened little tots. How Disgusting and childish!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. The democratic platform is sure helping them with those sales at least of semi-automatic firearms..

[cabluedem]

73. What is the point? Obama isnt going to ban firearms. Even if he or congress did

what would they do? The only people who would buy an illegal gun would be a criminal. Not only that but they could be risking being blackmailed if they didn't turn the weapon in, by someone who knew they had kept it. Makes no sense to me at all.

[pipoman]

74. Uh...vote him and/or the Dem led Congress and Senate out of office? See 1994. N/T

Even if he or congress did what would they do?

[HALO141]

76. The prisons are already full

Where would the put the millions of people who would NOT turn in their arms?

Unjust law is just that.

[cabluedem]

79. I never said it would be just. I dont think it will happen..

but lots of people seem to.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. That's why people are buying the weapons now.

A new AWB may be passed although I think the odds are low. Just like the previous AWB they won't take away previously owned weapons, that's why people are buying them now. There will be no weapon turn in. If there is, not only will we lose the house in 2010 we will lose the senate and the White House in 2012, because then there will be no denying the charge of being gun grabbers when several million people are forced to turn weapons in to the government or face prosecution. Obama is way to smart to let that happen.

David

[DonP]

78. And of course the criminals will ignore any new laws anyway

The tweaker that shot the kid trick or treating and his ilk will pay no attention to any laws, past, present or proposed in any event.

Then after new laws are passed we'll still hear from all the fine folks again, telling us how horrible it is that anyone owns these "weapons of war" crapola and how we need more laws to keep these out of the hands of criminals (ignoring the 20,000 laws already on the books).

Maybe they'll be happier if we get a national version of our CAGE units (Chicago Area Gun Enforcement) where the cops actually do go door to door of people who have expired regsistrations in Cook County and Chicago? Of course they only confiscate them from people that were law abiding (and dumb) enough to trust Daley's promises and register them in the first place. The tweakers and gang members guns would have been safe.

But for the ignorant it will all be the NRA's fault anyway.

[HALO141]

75. Once again WITHOUT the hyperbole?

Tnanks much.