GUNS IN THE NEWS - November 3, 2003

[CO Liberal]

Please try to adhere to the following guidelines:

1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net within the past 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. (On Mondays, stories that were originally posted to the 'Net over the weekend - Friday night through Sunday - are considered current. This allows for the fact than many people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.)

2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links from a few years back that support your position.

3 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.

4 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.

5 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.

[demsrule4life]

1. Girl, 6, hurt in shooting

A six-year-old girl is recovering in hospital after she and two members of her family were shot at their Liverpool home.

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/3236343.stm

[CO Liberal]

13. And How Many Little Girls Were Shot Here In America, Dems???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

[demsrule4life]

2. Two shot in restaurant

One man has been shot in the head and another in the stomach as they sat in a restaurant in north London, Scotland Yard has said.

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/england/london/3236383.stm

[CO Liberal]

14. And How Many Were Shot In Restaurants Here In America,Dems?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[demsrule4life]

3. Firearm crime continues to rise

Gun crime in England and Wales is still rising according to Home Office figures released on Thursday.

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/england/london/3195908.stm

[LibLabUK]

8. Ahem

From that article:

10,250 firearm offences in a population of 55 million.

About 17% (~1750) of offences using firearms resulted in physical harm, the majority of which involved only minor injury.

Firearms caused 80 fatalities, down from 95 in the previous 12 months.

"Home Office minister Hazel Blears said: "The risk of a fatal shooting in England and Wales is still one of the lowest in the world."

From Homeoffice.gov.uk:

Overall, in a population of 55 million during 2002/2003 there were 1078 murders (including the 172 deaths now attributed to Shipman which occured outside of the period).

How does this compare to the US?

How many firearms offences result in injury or death?

[MrBenchley]

10. You mean there is no UK bloodbath??

Fancy that...

[LibLabUK]

16. Apparently not... :)

Something that amuses me no end, whenever the media interview a member of the public on the so-called "increase in gun crime" the MotP almost always says something like "it's becoming more and more like America here".

I was in Toronto last march(02), and when I visited Niagara Falls I almost expected to hear gun shots coming from the US side :)

Your gun loons hold Britain up as an example of bad things happening when you take handguns out of public hands. We hold America up as an example of the bad things that happen when you allow the public to own them.

[MrBenchley]

18. Gun loons is the appropriate term

There's always a high pitched keening and shrieking whenever I point out that the entire UK has a level of gun violence roughly equivalent to a city like Birmingham, Alabama.

[demsrule4life]

4. Police force sees gun crime increase

Firearms incidents in Merseyside have increased over the last year, but the number of weapons seizures by police has doubled

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/england/2642329.stm

[CO Liberal]

15. Isn't It Still Miniscule Compared to America,Dems?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[demsrule4life]

5. Knock on door leads to shooting death

The man at the door -- 28-year-old Chester Kendale Lane -- asked Alston, 32, for a ride, then pulled a handgun, Alston told Greensboro police. The pair, who apparently didn't know each other, wound up exchanging gunfire about 9:15 p.m. outside Alston's apartment at 1008-E Rucker St., Greensboro police Sgt. Jane Allen said.

http://www.news-record.com/news/local/gso/homicide_110103.htm

[demsrule4life]

6. 3rd Attacker In A Week Meets Match

Late Thursday night, the 63-year-old victim of an attempted carjacking
pulled a .357-caliber Magnum on his assailant and fired, critically
wounding him, officials said.
http://tampatrib.com/MGAZ7S86HMD.html

[MrBenchley]

7. Man Arrested In Church Shooting (FL)

"A 59-year-old woman was shot and killed in a Central Florida church annex after she attended service Sunday, according to Local 6 News.
Police arrested Ann Horne Savage's ex-boyfriend, Willie Crowder, late Sunday night just off Orange Center Boulevard, at the Orange Center Apartments, after a citizen phoned in a tip that they knew of Crowder's whereabouts.
Investigators said that church service had just ended when the suspect, Willie Crowder, began arguing with and then allegedly shot his ex-girlfriend, Ann Horne Savage. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_wkmg/1858469

[RoeBear]

9. Some states ban CCW in churches...

...you give a pretty compelling reason to allow it.

[MrBenchley]

11. Is THAT what you think that story shows?

Hahahahahhahahha....

Yeah, that's what the church needed....innocent bystanders plugged by armed loonies to go along with the tragedy.

[CO Liberal]

17. That, Way, They Won't Have to Move The Bodies Far.....

....to have the funerals.

[MrBenchley]

19. LOL! (nt)

[RoeBear]

50. Any examples of...

...that?

[MrBenchley]

12. Teenager dies in shooting (KS)

"Joshua Sinco had gun safety lessons drummed into him.
He was careful with guns, but other weren’t.
Sinco, 18, died Friday after being hit in the head by a shotgun blast about 4 p.m. in the 29500 block of East Easley Road in rural Jackson County.
The sheriff’s office said it received a 911 call from a juvenile friend of Sinco who said he had accidentally shot him."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/7160813.htm

[MrBenchley]

20. Man pleads guilty in shooting (KS)

"A man who fired a handgun repeatedly while walking along a crowded downtown Lawrence sidewalk early last month has pleaded guilty to injuring 11 persons in the shooting spree.
Authorities contended that early on Oct. 5, Tremble was walking near 11th and Massachusetts streets when he began firing a semiautomatic pistol into the sidewalk, which was crowded with people. Police said five women and six men were hit by either bullet fragments or pieces of concrete."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/7160812.htm

[MrBenchley]

21. Attorney in Televised Shooting Released (CA)

"LOS ANGELES - A lawyer who survived a gunman's attack that was captured on videotape said he hadn't met the suspect before the assault and feels fortunate to be alive.
Gerry Curry, 53, was released Sunday from a hospital after being shot at close range by a man identified by police as William Strier, 64. Curry was shot in his arm and neck.
Dramatic television footage from crews covering Robert Blake's murder case Friday showed Curry, of Simi Valley, trying to hide behind a tree as Strier fired a revolver outside the Van Nuys courthouse.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031103/ap_on_re_us/courthouse_shooting_2

[Lefty48197]

45. Thank God that gun nut hadn't trained to shoot like militia members

Otherwise there would be yet another tragic death in the violent nation we live in.

[MrBenchley]

22. Police Investigate Liquor Store Shooting (FL)

"Investigators are looking into a shooting at a liquor store on Jacksonville's Northside.
Police were called to the scene at 9929 Lem Turner Rd. late Friday morning. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_wjxt/1856824

[MrBenchley]

23. Man Shot, Killed While Letting Dogs Out (OH)

"Michael Combs, 30, was struck in the arm by gunfire at about 11:15 p.m. Friday at his home on Church Street in Glendale, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.
The bullet passed through Combs' arm and into his chest. He was taken to University Hospital, where he was pronounced dead a short time later.
According to police, Combs was standing on his back porch when he was shot. He had just let his dogs out and was waiting for them to come back in, WLWT reported."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_wlwt/1858859

[LibLabUK]

24. MPs take aim at eBay in gun smuggling report (UK)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/33744.html

Guns are being smuggled into the UK using online auction sites such as eBay, according to a report by MPs due out this week.

Although the sale of weapons is illegal on eBay, the report is expected to say that villains are getting round the barriers by buying component parts, such as barrels, firing mechanism and triggers.

According to the Sunday Times, which has seen a copy of the report, the committee of MPs is to call on the Government to take action.

The paper quotes the report as saying: "This loophole is a potential route for illicit weapons into the UK and should be addressed."

[LibLabUK]

25. Suspect in custody in Halloween shooting (TN)

Memphis police have a suspect in custody for the shooting of a one-year-old boy, who was out with his mother for a night of trick-or-treating. The child was in his mother's arms when someone shot him in the head.

Willie Edward Cooper is behind bars and charged in connection with the shooting of Octavious Washington.

"I was glad he got caught." said Washington's mother, Sade. "He shot an innocent child, my baby he didn't do nothing wrong."

Now her baby is in critical condition.

http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=1507780

[CO Liberal]

26. Ed bill not pro-gun enough?

Sounds like a few politicians are doing what the gun lobby paid them to do. - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Ed bill not pro-gun enough?

By The Denver Post

An education bill that would create a grant to help teachers of civics and history better educate their students has come under fire by a gun-rights group.

That wasn't a typo.

Turns out the bill, which doesn't mention the word "gun" anywhere, "has no safeguards that the education would steer clear of the existing anti-gun propaganda that is already prevalent in the public schools," according to Gun Owners of America. That, the group says, makes the bill "dangerous."

The group has lobbied the U.S. House heavily against the bill since it passed the Senate 90-0 in June.

Six co-sponsors have now removed their names, including two Colorado Republicans, Reps. Marilyn Musgrave, who received $9,956 from the gun group last election, and Tom Tancredo.

<more>

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~26935~1739340,00.html

[LibLabUK]

27. Question:

Do they do this with a lot of legislation?

[CO Liberal]

28. It Depends

If they're doing the will of the people who elected them, no.

If they're doing what the gun lobby tells them to do, yes.

[LibLabUK]

30. So basically...

the politicians really are owned by the lobbyists?

Why doesn't anyone do anything to end the system?

Surely it's the very definition of corruption?

[MrBenchley]

29. That would be the Gun Owners of America

headed by Larry Pratt, a guy so racist even Pat Buchanan had to run away from his company in public.

[LibLabUK]

31. Another question...

What's the difference between NRA and Gun Owners of America?

[CO Liberal]

32. They're Two Separate Organizations

And many people who belong to the GOA think that the NRA is too liberal......

In a nutshell (pun intended), the GOA is worse than the Nuts Ruining America.

[MrBenchley]

33. The NRA is much larger

and tries (and fails) to have a veneer of respectability. It claims 3 million (or is it 4 million) members and crowing...but the audited circulation of its magazines don't show anything like that and are declining. The NRA's annual convention year in and year out draws the same 40,000....of whom about half work in the gun industry in one capacity or another.

The GOA is basically little more than a one-man band and a tiny group of demented followers.

[Lefty48197]

47. They're both very similar

They are a small group of individuals hell bent on electing Republican politicians in this country, even though many of them laughably claim to be politically neutral, or even left wing.
This small group of people also takes on other names to further their right wing agenda. Some days they call themselves the _____ Taxpayers Association, or _____ Right to Life.
Many of them don't even give a sh*t about guns, they just want to inflame inflamable voters and use them to pursue the right wing agenda.

[RoeBear]

57. Which brings us back to...

...my suggestion. Take the gun issue away from them and you've taken away their fuel for lighting the fire.

BTW- I've heard that many GOA members are more Libertarian leaning than Republican.

[hansberrym]

51. Suppose there was a right-wing effort to teach the First Amendment

and it highlighted the freedom of religion, but did not mention anything about the establishment clause, nor anything about Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom, nor anything about Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance, and nothing about the Treaty of Tripoli.

Would you question such a one-sided program?

[CO Liberal]

52. It's Called The Religious Right

As promoted by such un-Christian organizations as Focus On The Family (James Dobson) and Coral Ridge Ministries (D. James Kennedy), and ccharletons such as Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Roy Moore, and Jerry Falwell. And I question all of them.

It sounds like the GOA assholes wanted a program that advanced their distorted view of things. And when they didn't get it, they're sending their paid dogs to fight it.

[MrBenchley]

53. I think the CBS Reagan movie flap

shows the entire country what the right wing really thinks of "freedom of speech" and the First Amendment.....so why should we pay even the least attention to their dishonest views about the second amendment?

[hansberrym]

54. SO you are saying that it would be wrong to teach the First Amendment

without references to the historical underpinnings of the Establishment Clause, but it would be OK to ignore the historical record regarding the Second Amnedment, or to teach the Bill of Rights to school children without any reference to the second amendment?


(quote)
It sounds like the GOA assholes wanted a program that advanced their distorted view of things. And when they didn't get it, they're sending their paid dogs to fight it.
(unquote)

[CO Liberal]

56. They Want a Program That EMPHASIZES The Second Amendment

Like it's the most important thing on the planet. Which it ain't.

[hansberrym]

59. Where did you get the idea that the GOA wanted the EMPHASIS ?

of the history lessons funded under the bill to be on the second amendment?

(quote from the Denver Post article that was linked earlier)
A Musgrave spokesman said there were concerns that some curricula "likely to be included did not mention the Second Amendment"
(end quote)


Note that the link you provided earlier shows that the GOA's is concerned that there might be NO mention of the second amendment in history lessons to be be funded under the bill.

[MrBenchley]

34. Man Shot In Attempted Robbery (MO)

"A man is hospitalized in critical condition after he was shot during an attempted robbery late Sunday night.
Police said that it happened around 11 p.m. in the parking lot of Superfoods in the 100 block of East Linwood. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_kmbc/1858888

[MrBenchley]

35. Alleged Domestic Violence Victim Charged With Murder (NC)

"An Anderson County woman who said she killed her common-law husband while defending herself during a domestic dispute is charged with murder.
"We did an investigation that day looking at all of the evidence at the scene, interviewed several people we came to the conclusion that it was not in self-defense. Therefore, we issued a murder charge," Capt. Dale McCard told WYFF News 4's Kisha Foster.
The shooting happened Oct. 24 at the couple's home on Howland Drive. Ronald Lee Grant, 34, was shot once in the chest with a pistol and died at the scene. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=401&ncid=401&e=4&u=/ibsys/20031031/lo_wyff/1856210

[MrBenchley]

36. Classes Resume After Shooting Outside Anacostia High (DC)

"Washington (AP) - Classes resume at Anacostia High School Monday for the first time since a student was gunned down in front of the school last Thursday.
Police say 16-year-old Devin Fowlkes was not the target of the shooting. They say the alleged gunman - a 15-year-old classmate - was aiming at two people in a car, but hit Fowlkes instead."

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1103/108761.html

[MrBenchley]

37. Police Investigate Shooting At Farm (MO)

"Police said that a young man called 911 and said that he shot his friend.
KMBC's Martin Augustine reported that a 16-year-old boy invited two friends, both 18 years old, over to take a look at a gun. Apparently as the teenager took the gun out of a gun cabinet, it went off striking Joshua Sinco,18, in the face. He died from his injuries. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_kmbc/1856915

[MrBenchley]

38. Man Shot To Death In Greensboro (NC)

"Greensboro police are investigating the city's 30th murder of the year.
Investigators say shortly after 3 a.m. Sunday officers found 29-year-old James Comer lying shot to death on the sidewalk on Hudgins Drive in Smith Homes. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_wxii/1858977

[MrBenchley]

39. Maui Police Declare Shooting Murder-Suicide

"Maui police said the deaths of a Kahului couple appear to be a case of murder-suicide.
The bodies of the man and woman were found Sunday afternoon in the garage of their rented home on Pona Way, according to police. They were identified as Jose Delos Santos Sr., 62, and his wife, Lailani Delos Santos, 49. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_kitv/1859433

[MrBenchley]

40. Weapons bill opposed by 69% (WI)

"Wisconsin residents are opposed by a large margin to allowing people who legally own handguns to carry them in a concealed manner, a new poll says.
G. Donald Ferree Jr., who directs the Badger Poll, said he regarded the results as "a very good reading, a very accurate reading," of sentiment in Wisconsin related to the concealed weapons law because a variety of questions in the poll came at the subject in several ways and provided a "nuanced" and full view of what people thought.
For example, in one question in the poll, 51% of people said they would be somewhat or much less likely to vote for the re-election of someone who voted "to allow ordinary residents to carry concealed weapons," while 12% said they would be somewhat or much more likely to vote in favor of such a candidate."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov03/182161.asp

[Romulus]

43. important point:

*snip*

In (another) poll, when people were asked "in general, do you favor or oppose a law in Wisconsin that would allow citizens of Wisconsin to carry concealed weapons," 62.5% were opposed and 30.5% in favor.

But results changed on a follow-up question (in that same other poll): "Do you favor or oppose allowing citizens to carry concealed guns if they pass a course in firearms safety and obtain a license from the county sheriff's department?" On that question, 49% were in favor, 46% opposed.

Zien called the training requirement in the weapons bill "the big, big caveat in this law" and said he believed that, with that in, as many as 70% or 80% of people in Wisconsin supported the idea.

No question in the Badger Poll referred to the training requirement . . .

*snip*

The NRA's LaSorte dismissed Erpenbach's criticism, noting that six out of 15 Democrats in the Senate voted in favor of the proposal.

*snip*

"The public, I think, certainly has not been educated" on the bill, (pro-CCW legislator) Fitzgerald said.

Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because a sizable group of people has been shrieking about "guns in the streets" without actually discussing the applicant screening process involved with this CCW bill.

If people are opposed to CCW, they should also be opposed to armed private security guards. Anything else is hypocrisy.

[MrBenchley]

46. BFD

""The public, I think, certainly has not been educated" on the bill, (pro-CCW legislator) Fitzgerald said."
Wonder, if they knew what a dishonest pantload John Lott's research was, and who paid for it, whether they'd feel even strongly against it?

[RoeBear]

58. I see why he calls it 'Bogus'

The first question, as asked, I wouldn't be in favor of either:
It asks "there is a proposal to allow people who can legally own handguns to carry concealed in most public places". No mention of fingerprinting, back ground checks, training etc.

Liars, damn liars and then there's poll takers.

edited to add link to poll:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov03/182177.asp

[MrBenchley]

41. Shooting deaths of Liberty City neighbors unsolved (FL)

"Two people were killed and two others slightly wounded when shots were fired on a Liberty City street Saturday night, police said.
Calvin Dassaw, 25, and Cindarella Flowers, 39, next-door neighbors on Northwest 65th Terrace, were killed.
''At this point, we have no idea who the target was,'' said Sgt. Eunice Cooper of the Miami Police Department. There were no suspects."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7167542.htm

[CO Liberal]

42. I Guess They Were Playing "Ring and Run", Right???

A few people here seem to think that's justification for blowing people away........

[MrBenchley]

44. Incidentally, since you bring that up...

"Medical records are shedding fresh light on the shooting death of a teenager who was playing "ding, dong, ditch" in Boca Raton last week.
Those records show Mark Drewes, 16, was shot in the back. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031103/lo_wplg/1859276

[Romulus]

48. once again . . .

Physical Lag Times and Their Impact On The Use Deadly Force
Previously published in The Tactical Edge, Spring 1995
By: Captain Michael R. Hillmann, Los Angeles Police Department

http://www.lapdonline.org/general_information/dept_pub_program/physical_lag.htm

*snip*

An officer stated during the officer involved shooting interview he discharged his firearm in defense of himself when the suspect was facing him. The forensic evidence indicated however, the bullet track was posterior (back) to anterior (front). Under the specific circumstances, perception time, brain lag and reaction time of the officer, combined with continued movement of the target (suspect), may have accounted for the inconsistency between the officer's initial statement and the actual evidence.

*snip*

The police officer, in pursuit, perceives the threat (0.1 second), stops, assesses that he is in imminent danger of being shot, decides on the appropriate use of force and makes the decision to shoot (0.6 to 0.8 or more seconds). At this point, the suspect is continuing to move, turn, bend, squat, run, climb, throw, stop etc. In the beat of a heart, the officer makes the decision to shoot, based upon the belief of imminent threat to life. He acquires the target, aligns his front and rear sight and squeezes the trigger twice in rapid succession (1.0 second or more). The suspect falls to the ground shot in the back. Under the circumstances, the officer's perception of the threat, decision to shoot plus actual shooting time, required at least 1.0 second or more to implement. During this period of time the officer observed certain facts and decided on a course of action while the suspect's movement continued. In closer examination, at the time the officer actually commenced shooting one would probably find that the suspect was turning back, toward his left when the bullet(s) impacted . During the post incident, officer interview however, the officer may have recalled he discharged his weapon while the suspect was facing him, when in reality, the suspect actually was in the process of turning away from him.

*snip/end*

[MrBenchley]

49. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrre.....

I suspect somebody's doing a lot more spinning now than this kid EVER did.

[RoeBear]

55. Awesome response...

...to incontrovertible scientific evidence.